Undertaker Arrested For Hiding 200 Foetuses From Abortion Clinics In Bangkok Temple

[Deeral]

time to review the Thai abortion laws?

[IndyWally]

Abortion, amulets, KMT whatever, it amazes me that all people want to talk about is everything BUT these precious lives that have been murdered, ruthlessly, painfully, uncaringly and it's just no big deal. We have become an evil society and nobody even so much as blinks an eye at this massacre. I personally am heartbroken as I read this and see these pictures.

[DoctorG]

All religions are a bit of a giggle. Too bad they adversely impact on so many lives. Yes, I know that many religious organisations do good work and are a comfort to many, I just think the bad outweighs the good.

[Piengrudee]

How could people do such a thing. Killing their own unborn children. Hundreds of them.

[MikeyIdea]

How could people do such a thing. Killing their own unborn children. Hundreds of them.

They are not hundreds, they are thousands

[Deeral]

Sadly reality is not so simple.

Nobody is "pro-abortion" it's just some believe that the decision lies with the mother not the state

[IndyWally]

Except in cases of rape, the mother made her decision when she decided to have sex. Along with that decision comes several possible outcomes - pleasure, pain, ecstasy, joy, disappointment, pregnancy, HIV etc. Isn't it quite telling on our society that the only one she can change is the pregnancy? The others she has to take responsibility for and accept. The one she has "power" over involves taking the life of her own flesh. And we call ourselves Humans - humane!

Sadly reality is not so simple.

Nobody is "pro-abortion" it's just some believe that the decision lies with the mother not the state

[Deeral]

Except in cases of rape, the mother made her decision when she decided to have sex. Along with that decision comes several possible outcomes - pleasure, pain, ecstasy, joy, disappointment, pregnancy, HIV etc. Isn't it quite telling on our society that the only one she can change is the pregnancy? The others she has to take responsibility for and accept. The one she has "power" over involves taking the life of her own flesh. And we call ourselves Humans - humane!

Sadly reality is not so simple.

Nobody is "pro-abortion" it's just some believe that the decision lies with the mother not the state

You'd probably have to comb this web site or even the net for days to find a more , blinkered, ignorant and misogynistic post .....in fact I doubt you'd be successful

[IndyWally]

I was just stating a fact, a truth and if you can refute it then I challenge you to do so with facts, truths of your own. Not agreeing and attacking my statement does not justify your position.

Except in cases of rape, the mother made her decision when she decided to have sex. Along with that decision comes several possible outcomes - pleasure, pain, ecstasy, joy, disappointment, pregnancy, HIV etc. Isn't it quite telling on our society that the only one she can change is the pregnancy? The others she has to take responsibility for and accept. The one she has "power" over involves taking the life of her own flesh. And we call ourselves Humans - humane!

Sadly reality is not so simple.

Nobody is "pro-abortion" it's just some believe that the decision lies with the mother not the state

You'd probably have to comb this web site or even the net for days to find a more , blinkered, ignorant and misogynistic post .....in fact I doubt you'd be successful

[webfact]

Police found 348 baby fetus at Pai-Ngern Temple yesterday, temple's undertaker admitted he was hired by abt 5 illegal abortion clinics /TAN_Network

[bino]

Abortion is illegal in Thailand except when it is judged that delivery would harm the mother or when the pregnancy is the result of rape.

That's not true. Morning sickness or headaches is considered enough "harm" to get one

Indeed... the whole aspect of "harm" here is pretty much open to translation or definition. The harm doesn't have to be physical, it can be emotional and or mental also. So, if you can spin them a good enough story/reason to terminate the pregnancy, it can be done. There is a good sticky post in the health forum by Sheryl, where there is good advice and solutions.

[luvU2much500THB]

I then asked the girl, 'can you describe some of the ghosts in detail?'

Last week i way skyping about that with my gf about this because her friend went with farang and she could not sleep alone. " Me scare ghost to much"

I said there are no ghots 100%, you ever saw one? " Me saw!" Of course could she not descripe.

I ended up saying " Then look for farang sleep with you" . i think she did

555

[Junglejingle]

Bloody awful...you would think that the *mothers* of these *foetuses* would have been more sensible and careful in making sure that proper contraception was in place...before having a good time..with whoever! ...Also...what about the aids factor???...not insisting on condom usage is murder in itself is it not?

Guess these ARE both a world wide problem...

God Bless the souls of the foetuses in question!

[Junglejingle]

How could people do such a thing. Killing their own unborn children. Hundreds of them.

They are not hundreds, they are thousands

Bloody sickening!....clearly shows they don't give a dam_n.....the *good time* had before was obviously more important to them....no sense of responsibility for their *actions* i guess

[Arkady]

Thailand's rigid abortion laws are out of kilter with the modern urban Thai society and need to be reformed urgently. Traditional morality is long gone and that it is normal and expected for high school kids to sleep together. Since lawmakers choose to cling to the myth of a conservative society with high moral, the young women are left to face the consequences of unwanted pregnancies and their ruined young lives by themselves.

[Junglejingle]

Just a little C&P.

It's pronounce as "Gu Man Thong", but there is a few variance to his name. Some ppl call Gumantong, Kumantong & Gumanthong. Also some ppl just use the word GMT or KMT to represent. More ppl name it as Gumantong.

Gumantong is a Thai amulet (yin amulet) created in the form of a lovely young child, but it's really a ghost. It's was first created in the early of Ayuthaya era or some 500 years ago during Khun Paen's life period. It can be said that Khun Paen was the first who created Gumantong. He brought the dead baby from the womb of the dead Bua Klee, one of his minor wife, to the Bosth's outer area within Pathasima marking boundary pillars for ritual processes. Bosth is the major chanting hall where the main Buddha image of the temple is placed. Bosth and its outer area are so sacred place that no mighty ghosts or spirits can enter to make any harassment. By the legendary descriptions, Khun Paen was chanting some important Mantras to activate the spirit of Gumantong while baking the dead baby on the fire. Khun Paen was a military general in the early Ayuthaya era.

It's Thai belief that a mother who died with her baby in the womb may become a very mighty ferocious ghost, Thai people call such the ghost PHI TAI TONG KLOM. By Thai traditon, any pregnant lady who died in that manner will not be cremated immediately in all cases, believing that it will make the spirit of the dead unhappy and may activate her to become the vicious ghost. Creating Gumantong in the ancient time was very thrilling. The master had to go to the graveyard alone in the night, dig up the corpse, cut the corpse's abdomen bringing the dead baby out, and then rush directly to the nearest Bosth's outer area for baking processes.That's the safe place to protect the ghost mother from trying to bring her baby back. So only the strong-mind person who possesses the advanced magical knowledge to fight the ghost could do this. If the ghost child is very fierce (can’t rest in peace), the monk or master will have to chant daily for years till the hatred & sin is cleansed.

The original form of the Gumantong is actually a dead infant, but it is traditionally created in the form of a young child in different shapes, sizes & forms with various materials, such as wood, bronze, ivory tusk, plaster,etc. The main purpose of creating Gumantong in the ancient time is for protecting the owner. The young child ghost could be activated with Mantra to fight the owner's enemies or to protect the owner's treasures.

In the present day the monks or masters seldom uses the dead infants to create the Gumantong. But more commonly they create it with varies material including things like corpse soil (死尸泥), corpses oil & activate their lives by holy Mantras. They are uses for various purposes, including for black magic, winning in gamble, guarding the house, protecting the owner's house or personal protection, etc.

I knew that there are some very evil Gumantong are create by black magic monks, guru or master, those Gumantong are uses to do bad things. That will add on the bad karma to the person owning it. Some Gumantong are very difficult to tame & they even need to be feed on blood. It's easy to have them as your ghost child but not so easy if you decided not to want it anymore. Must bring to Thai temple & let the monks keep it in the temple.

Any one who wants to worship Gumantong should be acknowledged with some important practices :

1. Food offering must be presented at least once a day.

2. Toy offering must also be presented occasionally, it's just because Gumantong is a young child(spirit), he likes playing toys as another human child.

3. The worshiper should love Gumantong as his/her son. For the 1st personal pronoun you call yourself "father" or "mother"; for the 2nd personal pronoun you call him "my son" ; and for the 3rd personal pronoun you just call his name Guman Thong.

4. Any house that has small child/children, it's recommended that should not bring in and worship Guman Thong because he may envy your child/children whom you pay all love to.

Worshipping Guman Thong needs deliberate practices. But if you can do it completely as recommended, he will be a good great fortune bringer.

This pic makes me wanna cry....but also angry at the same time!

[MikeyIdea]

How could people do such a thing. Killing their own unborn children. Hundreds of them.

They are not hundreds, they are thousands

Bloody sickening!....clearly shows they don't give a dam_n.....the *good time* had before was obviously more important to them....no sense of responsibility for their *actions* i guess

Who? It is still illegal in Thailand while abortion in quite a few countries in the western is considered a rightful right and legal

[keith7777]

The number of baby fetuses found at the Pai-ngern Temple has risen to 322 according to some reports. /via@tulsathit

My my my this is an abomanation, I don't care what any one says about abortion, anyone who has one should be tried for murder and anyone who is envolved in it in any way should be given the same punishment as the person who has the abortion. A life starts at enception and is a viable human and should be treated as such. My googness over three hundred, someone needs to pay for this outrage.

[Para]

Seems I have put the cat amongst the pidgins with my initial comment.

We are all conditioned by our cultures, what is right and just for us is classed as barbaric for another, yes?

The vast majority on the board will simply refuse to accept what AMY happen to these fetuses others will accept it as being the norm. Buddhism embraces reincarnation so if and I mean IF even a small fraction of the fetuses were to be used in a mythical way to give them a form of life how would you feel then? Something good coming from something bad?

As with all news what is reported is the tip of the iceberg if 300+ have been found in this the first report I can ever remember seeing think how many are not?

There is so much we simply don't know about this life or world who are any of us to judge or mock without supreme knowledge and ultimate understanding?

Para

[rgs2001uk]

Seems I have put the cat amongst the pidgins with my initial comment.

We are all conditioned by our cultures, what is right and just for us is classed as barbaric for another, yes?

The vast majority on the board will simply refuse to accept what AMY happen to these fetuses others will accept it as being the norm. Buddhism embraces reincarnation so if and I mean IF even a small fraction of the fetuses were to be used in a mythical way to give them a form of life how would you feel then? Something good coming from something bad?

As with all news what is reported is the tip of the iceberg if 300+ have been found in this the first report I can ever remember seeing think how many are not?

There is so much we simply don't know about this life or world who are any of us to judge or mock without supreme knowledge and ultimate understanding?

Para

Para,

no complaints from me, their ways are as strange to us as ours are to them, may be one way of looking at it.

There are certain replies that I havent bothered to comment on, people blinded by their own beliefs,ignorance and superstions.

How many are actually aware of what is carried out in the name of the religions they may follow.

Reminded very much of Victorian missionaries being dispatched to the 4 corners of the globe to save the savages, cultural imperialists, replacing one set of superstions with another, but it doesnt matter, God was on their side.

Thanks for giving us an insight, my mind is open many may be closed.

[IndyWally]

I don't understand why people keep wanting to bring "religion" or "culture" into this. Where is our sense of decency, of compassion especially for the defenseless, the helpless and the innocent? We are ALL human beings whether unborn, born, young or old - so we ALL should have the chance at life, treated with respect and given opportunity.

[SiangDeeMahk]

Right now.. hundreds (if not thousands and thousands!) of Thai girls (that had an abortion in the last 5 years) are freaking the hel_l out, worried that::

1- forensic testing of the foetuses could include DNA testing that might lead back to them.

2- investigations by the police at the clinics where the abortions were performed might also lead back to them.

3- one of these abandoned foetuses might be theirs, meaning their aborted baby's soul/spirit had not been handled (appeased) properly, and that the angry ghost of that desecrated dead baby will come to seek revenge from it's mother by haunting her forever. (just imagine the reaction that most Thai's will have to this)

I believe this story will cascade and amplify through (even normal, but especially superstitious) Thai society, like an out-of-control wave, generating widespread panic, and massive mass-hysteria, which will trigger a myriad of drastic responses, ranging from a HUGE pop-up "religiously ordained" industry that will, at great cost (due to it's secrecy), pair newly haunted women with "all powerful" magic monks who will cleanse them, and somehow magically "control" the newly angered baby-ghosts, to women who (fearing their dead baby's ghost, or just insurmountable grief revisited, or mortal embarrassment) will actually commit suicide to avoid being haunted. Add to the melee: rampant ghost sightings, ghost-related news reports, stories, and of course, a vast array of homegrown systems and devices of protection from the angry baby-ghosts.

I suspect this is going to get a LOT worse, before it gets better.

[Para]

I believe this story will cascade and amplify through (even normal, but especially superstitious) Thai society, like an out-of-control wave, generating widespread panic, and massive mass-hysteria,

I suspect this is going to get a LOT worse, before it gets better.

Why would it this has been going on for over 600 years since Khun Paen was around. The thing is now its in the 'Farrang' press so a hel_l of a lot harder to keep under covers.

IMO it will push the already incredibly expensive price of original L.P. Tim Amulets through the roof as the new found Farrang interest, for what ever reason will add to the current Thai demand for them. I have a number of Khun Paen's from L.P. Tim's student L.P. Sarkon's maybe they should be locked away with my Somdej Toh ones.

To try and help people here the chance of finding an origional L.P. Tim Khun Paen Amulet are close to zero. Anything found on the internet will 99% of the time be fake. Anyine wishing to PM me on this feel free to.

[katana]

I remember reading a similar story in June of this year when police found 14 preserved aborted foetuses in jars of saline solution an abandoned room in Ubon Ratchathanee.

They subsequently arrested a 59 year-old Thai woman who admitted to owning the foetuses and acting as the broker who took pregnant young girls to a backstreet abortion clinic and sold on the foetuses to a shaman in the south for 1000 Baht a pop to make gumanthong amulet charms.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:beQPVmoOIdwJ:www.thairath.co.th/content/region/90968+%E0%B8%9C%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%B0!%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%9A%E0%B9%82%E0%B8%AB%E0%B8%A5%E0%B8%94%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%87+%E0%B8%8B%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%81+%E0%B8%AA%E0%B9%88%E0%B8%87%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%B3%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%B8%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%AD%E0%B8%87&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=th&client=firefox-a

[Buchholz]

Police arrested women who brought fetuses to the temple

BANGKOK, 18 November 2010 (NNT) - Public Health Minister Jurin Laksanawisit has ordered departmental staff to closely supervise clinics nationwide after bags containing over 300 fetuses were found at a temple two days ago.

Police yesterday raided two clinics along Sathupradit road, but found no evidence they were abortion clinics.

Police interrogated Suthep Chabangbon, an undertaker at the temple, who implicated the temple’s two other undertakers in the crime.

He also admitted that he took the fetuses from Ms. Lanchakorn Jantomnut who ran an illegal abortion clinic on Petch Kasem road.

Police picked up Ms. Lanchakorn Jantomnut who later confessed that she had been charging up to 30,000 baht for each illegal abortion and paying around 300 baht to the undertaker for each of the remains to be cremated.

According to the Health Minister, the Department of Health Support Service has in the past two days investigated several clinics and found over 20 clinics offering abortion services. The root of the abortion problem is due to the fact that nowadays minors, some as young as 13 or 14, are already engaged in sexual activities leading to a drastic rise in the number of unwanted pregnancy.

-- NNT 2010-11-18

[MikeyIdea]

30,000? That's a rip off. I don't know the current pricing but the clinic on Sukhumvit Soi 6 or 8 down the soi (don't know if it's still there) only charged a couple of thousand bath, this was 6-7 years ago. A neighbour in high school made an abortion there to be able to finish her education. One parent had to come since mother-to-be was underage

Someone I knew made a 4.5 month abortion at Klong Tan hospital for 15,000 bath (that was 9-10 years ago)

[GooEng]

30,000? That's a rip off. I don't know the current pricing but the clinic on Sukhumvit Soi 6 or 8 down the soi (don't know if it's still there) only charged a couple of thousand bath, this was 6-7 years ago. A neighbour in high school made an abortion there to be able to finish her education. One parent had to come since mother-to-be was underage

Someone I knew made a 4.5 month abortion at Klong Tan hospital for 15,000 bath (that was 9-10 years ago)

soi 12, the meechai family planning place just behind the cabbages and condoms resturaunt.

12,000 baht 7 yrs ago, i think.

a pharmacy recommended the soi 12 place when a friend tried to buy the "chemical termination" pills.

the klong tan place is also well known.

[MikeyIdea]

30,000? That's a rip off. I don't know the current pricing but the clinic on Sukhumvit Soi 6 or 8 down the soi (don't know if it's still there) only charged a couple of thousand bath, this was 6-7 years ago. A neighbour in high school made an abortion there to be able to finish her education. One parent had to come since mother-to-be was underage

Someone I knew made a 4.5 month abortion at Klong Tan hospital for 15,000 bath (that was 9-10 years ago)

soi 12, the meechai family planning place just behind the cabbages and condoms resturaunt.

12,000 baht 7 yrs ago, i think.

a pharmacy recommended the soi 12 place when a friend tried to buy the "chemical termination" pills.

the klong tan place is also well known.

Soi 12 sounds right. Yepp, that's as common and easily accessible as it is, we're not talking about a couple of hundred, there are thousands.

My neighbours wouldn't have had 12,000 bath to pay for sure, max 7,000 for them. Maybe "humanity based" pricing

[Para]

I see the number is now 1300+ this is unreal.

If these fetuses were destined to be cremated in accordance to Thai Buddhist tradition why have so many been found? How many months have these 'lost souls' been stored at the Wat and more importantly why for so long.

Even the occult side of them being used in the creation of Amulets this number is beyond belief. I am unaware of ANY living Thai Monk who would have both the power and the desirability for the transformation of such a HUGE number. I am off to spend time with my Ajahn to see what he thinks.

I am deeply saddened at the number of fetuses found.

Para

[webfact]

New Topic:

Additional 1,000 dead foetuses found at Temple in Bangkok