Travel Topic Of The Moment -- Naked Body Scanners And Invasive Pat Downs

[Bakseedaa]

So, basically, the terrorists won. The public, especially the American public has been made to exist in a perpetual state of fear and paranoia and actively willing to forfeit their civil rights based on the actions of a tiny number of villains.

OK... the easy solution to that argument is .....DO NOT FLY...... take the bus or stay at home...

[Jingthing]

So, basically, the terrorists won. The public, especially the American public has been made to exist in a perpetual state of fear and paranoia and actively willing to forfeit their civil rights based on the actions of a tiny number of villains.

OK... the easy solution to that argument is .....DO NOT FLY...... take the bus or stay at home...

Yeah, from the US to Thailand, don't fly. That is no solution.

No, I am not leading any revolution against the TSA. No need. This story has just begun. The public has finally reached their breaking point on this issue.

http://www.slate.com/id/2275448

Writing in Slate on Thursday, political reporter David Weigel identified a "full-blown revolt against the TSA." On Saturday, would-be passenger John Tyner refused an airport security pat-down with the now-famous phrase "if you touch my junk I'm going to have you arrested"; Texas congressman Ron Paul introduced the American Traveler Dignity Act to establish "that airport security screeners are not immune from any US law"; and several groups have designated Wednesday, Nov. 24 (the day before Thanksgiving), National Opt-Out Day against invasive body scanners. According to the TSA's Web site, new security measures like full-body scanners are just part of its mission "to prevent any terrorist or criminal activity"—but have TSA screeners ever actually prevented a terrorist attack?

...

What these numbers don't get at is whether the TSA airport screeners prevent terrorist attacks through their very existence—deterring plots by hanging around. This is quite probably the case, but it's not obvious that they prevent any more attacks than the private contractors who handled checkpoints before the Aviation and Transportation Security Act of 2001 went into effect.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

Of course we are not speaking the same language Jing

Mine is the voice of reason.......

Invasive. Look it up.

[473geo]

Of course we are not speaking the same language Jing

Mine is the voice of reason.......

Invasive. Look it up.

Don't you mean look up it?

[473geo]

So, basically, the terrorists won. The public, especially the American public has been made to exist in a perpetual state of fear and paranoia and actively willing to forfeit their civil rights based on the actions of a tiny number of villains.

OK... the easy solution to that argument is .....DO NOT FLY...... take the bus or stay at home...

Yeah, from the US to Thailand, don't fly. That is no solution.

No, I am not leading any revolution against the TSA. No need. This story has just begun. The public has finally reached their breaking point on this issue.

http://www.slate.com/id/2275448

Writing in Slate on Thursday, political reporter David Weigel identified a "full-blown revolt against the TSA." On Saturday, would-be passenger John Tyner refused an airport security pat-down with the now-famous phrase "if you touch my junk I'm going to have you arrested"; Texas congressman Ron Paul introduced the American Traveler Dignity Act to establish "that airport security screeners are not immune from any US law"; and several groups have designated Wednesday, Nov. 24 (the day before Thanksgiving), National Opt-Out Day against invasive body scanners. According to the TSA's Web site, new security measures like full-body scanners are just part of its mission "to prevent any terrorist or criminal activity"but have TSA screeners ever actually prevented a terrorist attack?

...

What these numbers don't get at is whether the TSA airport screeners prevent terrorist attacks through their very existencedeterring plots by hanging around. This is quite probably the case, but it's not obvious that they prevent any more attacks than the private contractors who handled checkpoints before the Aviation and Transportation Security Act of 2001 went into effect.

If cargo is not hand searched or screened or from a known agent who has carried out these tasks it does not fly as far as I understand, of course this is not perfect but has not done a bad job so far.......

So you really think a few awkward prats in the states are are going to change the rules for all passenger flights at all airports?

Did you ever get to a thousand reds?........

Thought not........

Edited November 19, 2010 by 473geo

[elliss]

So when they catch a terrorist with a bomb up his butt, and use him as a reason for conducting cavity searches (since the backscatter xrays don't look inside the body), you'll be in line bent over waiting your TURD...

[/quote ]

shit will surely hit the fan. :jap:

[Jingthing]

Well it now looks like the stick figure scanning machines are coming (in response to privacy complaints from the public!), and with those, it will no longer be naked body imaging. I reckon that will calm things down considerably until the time someone is caught with something dodgy in their no-sun-shiner or hoo haa. When that happens, all bets are off!

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20101118tsa_scanners_will_show_only_stick_figure_privacy_complaints_spur_change/srvc=home&position=also

[473geo]

I'll leave it to Mr Drake to sum up then........

"But John Drake, 36, of York, Maine, flying yesterday with his family to San Jose, Calif., for Thanksgiving, had no complaints: “Travel is not a birth-given right. It’s a choice. And it’s up to our government to make sure we’re safe while we do it.” He called Opt Out Day “the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard of.”

[Jingthing]

I trust Krauthamer of the Washington Post over Joe Blow from Sticksville, but that's just me. Yes we need the government to help keep us safe, but we also need them not to force people to be put in pornographic situations just to get from point A to point B. It was easy to predict there would some kind of adjustment to the naked body scanning, especially when people started to realize their children also would also be subjected to these measures. I think a lot of people will be satisfied with the stick figure scanners, but that still leaves the issue that the security is too much based on stuff and not enough based on people.

Edited November 19, 2010 by Jingthing

[473geo]

Do you really understand what is happening here.......computer generated images.....1) in the form of a flesh coloured body image 2) in the form of a black stick image........

I'm pleased you guys are made up over this dramatic change of heart in the presentation of computer imaging........

I'll go with Mr Sticksville, quiet, concise, and not a scaremonger.......

[Jingthing]

No, the naked body pictures show everything. They show sweat on your balls. Stick figures are abstract representations. Those are not the same things by any stretch of the imagination. Some may be interested in happily submitting to anything the government dishes out without question (maybe they think that makes them better citizens to be passive and sheep-like), but I take the old cliche QUESTION AUTHORITY quite literally. Are those really the best methods, would less evasive methods do the same limited thing, are they actually necessary, are there better methods that provide better security, etc.?

Edited November 19, 2010 by Jingthing

[473geo]

I stand corrected Jing yes they can see your reproductive organs.........wow.......take a couple while you're at it.......come on..... just what is the issue here.........prudes?

Are they frightened the operators bursts out laughing.........

[sirineou]

I have no objections, think they provide some increase in security, and until they stop this silliness about not being able to be patted down by the opposite sex, I'll take the scanner.

555555 I agree, If I have to be patted down, or up, I would want it to be by a member of the Opposite sex, preferable an attractive member, who knows if they hire the right girls, I might fly more often.

[Max2010]

So, basically, the terrorists won. The public, especially the American public has been made to exist in a perpetual state of fear and paranoia and actively willing to forfeit their civil rights based on the actions of a tiny number of villains.

Jingthing, If any one is exisisting in a state of fear and paranoia is the citizens of Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Maybe you have missed the news but the drone bombs and so-called "smart" bombs kill thousands of innocent civilians in their countries everyday. The death toll inflicted in their communities would never have been tolerated in western countries. For the longest time, they were not even given an apology and matter of fact, they were accused of housing terrorists and blamed their death as "collateral damage". The citizens cannot voice their frustrations with their corrupted and dictatorial governments and therefore find refuge in the madrassas and join terrorist networks to seek revenge just as Americans are seeking revenge now for the 9-11 attack. As long as dictators in the Middle East are militarily supported by the West in order to get cheap access to oil, war on terror will not be won. Turning a blind eye on this issue will never make it go away. Terrorist acts are inflicted by both sides, contrary to what is written in western media.

Max2010

[cdnvic]

Thousands of innocent civilians a day? Where exactly are you getting your information from?

[mark45y]

Maybe I am wrong but I have not seen the usual black American protest leaders jumping aboard this bandwagon. Where is Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton?

I think the whole thing is a small penis issue.

If you are hung why would you mind anyone finding out about it. Even straight guys are impressed by size. You don't see porn picks of little wieners (Japan excepted).

Perhaps the myth of white equality is in danger of being shattered. This would certainly be a problem in many parts of America.

Maybe I will be proved wrong and the usual protest leaders will jump on the bandwagon. But so far I would be willing to bet this will not be a black issue.

[jdinasia]

I trust Krauthamer of the Washington Post over Joe Blow from Sticksville, but that's just me. Yes we need the government to help keep us safe, but we also need them not to force people to be put in pornographic situations just to get from point A to point B. It was easy to predict there would some kind of adjustment to the naked body scanning, especially when people started to realize their children also would also be subjected to these measures. I think a lot of people will be satisfied with the stick figure scanners, but that still leaves the issue that the security is too much based on stuff and not enough based on people.

This whole thing is a reaction mostly to Joe Blow from San Diego,

The guy from Maine told the simple facts. Air travel on a common carrier just isn't a "God given right".

Technology will continue to change as will the world.

The results of the poll suggest that people are in fact willing to submit to the nominal loss of privacy (which never has been a right when flying) for the increased safety factor. No rights are being ifringed upon here at all and even one of Jing's quotes suggests that 5% of these screenings are necessary. (I would suggest they all are just to prevent abuses of power and ensure some randomness in the security checks.)

[Puccini]

...

No, I am not leading any revolution against the TSA. No need. This story has just begun. The public has finally reached their breaking point on this issue.

http://www.slate.com/id/2275448

Writing in Slate on Thursday, political reporter David Weigel identified a "full-blown revolt against the TSA." On Saturday, would-be passenger John Tyner refused an airport security pat-down with the now-famous phrase "if you touch my junk I'm going to have you arrested"...

It does look very much like this story has just begun. I read about the John Tyner case today and see that it is all over the news now and on YouTube. He opted out of the scan, then refused the "sexual harassment" of the pat-down, was escorted out of the airport, and now the TSA is publicly vilifying him with press statements saying that he can be fined 11,000 dollars because he "escaped" from the search, that once a search has started it must be completed, otherwise civil and criminal charges can be brought against the passenger. This brings a new dimension to it.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Puccini

[RabC]

Seems the vast majority of the complaints are with regards to the USA. Could this have anything to do with the quality of the personnel the TSA user to perform this job, pay peanuts get monkeys comes to mind. As a non US citizen, I avoid going anywhere near a US airport unless I really have to, sorry the majority of the TSA staff I have come across are vulgar, crass and intimidating. This is a sensitive subject and should have been handled with kid gloves not with the total arrogance that TSA shows.

[Jingthing]

More arguments for the protesters to the latest government excesses, and where they are headed. Note the stick machine is only at Boston so far. It's not clear what the national policy will be as yet and whether all airports will get the stick figure machines. This is not about one cranky fellow (Mr. Don't Touch My Junk), this has touched a nerve.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/11/19/AR2010111904282.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

Is this really for our own good? Or are we trading what's left of our human dignity by participating in a Kafkaesque farce that more closely resembles a college fraternity psychology experiment devised around a keg:

...

Heaven forbid that the next inept, would-be terrorist conceals his flammables in his nether region. Shall soon our interior caves and corridors require exploration to ensure that the system works?

...

But more alarming than the apparatuses is our willingness to go lowing into the night. Incrementally, we adapt to the stripping of civil liberties until, with the passage of time and the blinkering of generational memory, we no longer remember when things were otherwise.

[jdinasia]

And yet ... people who actually travel (TVF members) are in favor of scanning and patdowns. Americans that for the most part have never left their own country are against it Very telling.

[NovaBlue05]

"Sir...Your prostrate is enlarged....but otherwise normal. Have a safe trip.."

It's part of the ultimate meshing of Obamacare and national security.

[Jingthing]

And yet ... people who actually travel (TVF members) are in favor of scanning and patdowns. Americans that for the most part have never left their own country are against it Very telling.

That's very illogical. Americans travel a lot on airplanes whether they leave the country or not. As far as taking an unscientific survey on an internet forum as strong evidence of anything, I've got a Pattaya beer bar to sell you, you sound like a good prospect ...

In any case, it is clear that lots of people who do fly don't like the new (and some of the old policies) policies very much, whether it's the majority or not isn't really the issue, the issue is are the measures fully necessary and/or are there better methods. We don't have majority votes on TSA procedures, but strong public opinion can have an impact on them.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Jingthing

[WarpSpeed]

And yet ... people who actually travel (TVF members) are in favor of scanning and patdowns. Americans that for the most part have never left their own country are against it Very telling.

Maybe that's because it's more applicable to interstate travel?? It's also hysterical how people how live in a country in Europe smaller then the state of Texas for example and may travel to say Germany thinking they are such world travelers when that's really just like traveling from say Texas to California in terms of size and distance. Those 2 states alone have a cultural diversity that trumps most countries in Europe..

They just can't grasp the concept that Americans can happily live their entire life within the U.S. borders and experience every type of weather, geography, culture diversity and beauty all in one country for those who seek to poke sticks it comes down more to envy then anything else.. But yet they consider themselves 'worldly' rather foolishly in spite of not understanding this basic premise.

That's not to say that traveling out of one's country is not rewarding but for Americans just not a need in order to experience those things as it is in most other countries as much as a choice for Americans.

Edited November 20, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

And yet ... people who actually travel (TVF members) are in favor of scanning and patdowns. Americans that for the most part have never left their own country are against it Very telling.

That's very illogical. Americans travel a lot on airplanes whether they leave the country or not. As far as taking an unscientific survey on an internet forum as strong evidence of anything, I've got a Pattaya beer bar to sell you, you sound like a good prospect ...

In any case, it is clear that lots of people who do fly don't like the new (and some of the old policies) policies very much, whether it's the majority or not isn't really the issue, the issue is are the measures fully necessary and/or are there better methods. We don't have majority votes on TSA procedures, but strong public opinion can have an impact on them.

Yes, silly indeed...

Edited November 20, 2010 by WarpSpeed

[NovaBlue05]

And yet ... people who actually travel (TVF members) are in favor of scanning and patdowns. Americans that for the most part have never left their own country are against it Very telling.

Maybe that's because it's more applicable to interstate travel?? It's also hysterical how people how live in a country in Europe smaller then the state of Texas for example and may travel to say Germany thinking they are such world travelers when that's really just like traveling from say Texas to California in terms of size and distance. Those 2 states alone have a cultural diversity that trumps most countries in Europe..

They just can't grasp the concept that Americans can happily live their entire life within the U.S. borders and experience every type of weather, geography, culture diversity and beauty all in one country for those who seek to poke sticks it comes down more to envy then anything else.. But yet they consider themselves 'worldly' rather foolishly in spite of not understanding this basic premise.

That's not to say that traveling out of one's country is not rewarding but for Americans just not a need in order to experience those things as it is in most other countries as much as a choice for Americans.

France is one of the largest countries in Europe and they are smaller than Texas. Most are much smaller. Up until recent years, you also had the option to go into Canada or Mexico without passport requirements. That covers a good chunk of territory.

[cdnvic]

Scanners and searches are the topic here, not the worldliness of any nationality.

[sarahsbloke]

Jing --- YOU mentioned how effective in terms of manpower and money that 9-11 was for the terrorists. Others have pointed out that since then there have been no successful repeats of that event. Attributable in part, to enhanced security measures. That people are still flying, traveling, vacationing, going on business trips show to many of us that the terrorists did NOT win anything. They died, They killed people. They saw countries harboring them attacked etc.

If I may point out a terrorists primary aim is to create TERROR among a targeted group of people or population, and to get their government to react in an oppressive and/or extreme way.

They have quite obviously achieved their aim with the American people. America attacking countries harboring terrorists (although it actually didn't), merely provides them with more recruits.

A curious thing about 9/11, the terrorists were mainly Saudi nationals, yet no actions were taken against that country!

The relatives of the terrorists, living in the USA, were quietly allowed to leave the USA without any questioning!

Fear of death is far more effective than death itself. The killing is incidental.

Jing and I usually don't agree, but in this case I believe he is entirely correct.

Edited November 20, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[LaoPo]

TSA forces cancer survivor to show prosthetic breast

By Suzanne Choney

updated 11/20/2010 11:51:31 AM ET

A longtime Charlotte, N.C., flight attendant and cancer survivor told a local television station that she was forced to show her prosthetic breast during a pat-down.

Cathy Bossi, who works for U.S. Airways, said she received the pat-down after declining to do the full-body scan because of radiation concerns.

The TSA screener "put her full hand on my breast and said, 'What is this?' " Bossi told the station. "And I said, 'It's my prosthesis because I've had breast cancer.' And she said, 'Well, you'll need to show me that.' "

Continues:

http://www.msnbc.msn...s/travel-news/#

LaoPo

Edited November 21, 2010 by LaoPo

[DP25]

None of these scanning procedures do ANYTHING to detect certain kinds of explosives. I favor real security. Using sniffer dogs, profiling and database mining, and Israeli questioning methods. Not this current farce.

Unfortunately that would require real training and hiring people that are not rejects from McDonalds. Until we are willing to invest in real security that we will continue in this absurd ineffective farce that has become security with the TSA.