How Does The Fetus Scandal Affect Your Confidence In Thai Buddhism

[sabaijai]

How many of these unborn children will there have been in the last 10 years in this pseudo religious country?

Perhaps roughly the same as in any other country, proportionally?

And are there in any 'religious countries' (as opposed to 'pseudo-religious countries') in this world?

[phetaroi]

Does it really surprise you considering the Thai Sangha is an institution mostly composed of short term monks or those ordained for cultural reasons?

There are monks who show the kind of impeccable standards that we'd expect, I've met many but they are the minority.

My guess is maybe about 5-10% are genuinely trying to practice the Buddhist path (Those 5-10% have produced some very impressive teachers though). This is probably about the same as are genuinely practising christianity in western countries, the difference is western societies have thrown off the cultural aspects more than has happened in Thailand.

Excellent observations, and you succinctly got at exactly what I was struggling to express.

[healthcaretaker]

Does it really surprise you considering the Thai Sangha is an institution mostly composed of short term monks or those ordained for cultural reasons?

There are monks who show the kind of impeccable standards that we'd expect, I've met many but they are the minority.

My guess is maybe about 5-10% are genuinely trying to practice the Buddhist path (Those 5-10% have produced some very impressive teachers though). This is probably about the same as are genuinely practising christianity in western countries, the difference is western societies have thrown off the cultural aspects more than has happened in Thailand.

Excellent observations, and you succinctly got at exactly what I was struggling to express.

So I guess you get the answer too that those who really understand Buddhism will not have their confidence shaken at all. The act oif some monks do not represent the religion or Buddhism totally. Just like, even any bad act of a Prime Minister of a country will not shaken it at all.

On my previous message, yes, I do think(on the views of Buddhism) that letting them to rod in a temple is very much more merciful them getting rid of them elsewhere. I am sure you should understand that if you do understand some teackings of Buddhism in this area. I think the monks who did must have thought so.

Also om my previous message, I used the example of Christianity's teachings and science as just as an example in comparison. What I tried to express is that WHEN some teachings of certain religion(christinaity here) are already proven to be wrong, and many even believe that Christianity was actually started as a scam(think of the money involved) "majority" of their members' beloef was not shaken. New generations and prospects will not join but majority of existing members will still continue, right ? So how could Buddhism's faith be shaken over this matter ?

Buddhism's faith "may" be shaken ONLY IF science or anyone can prove that their belief of rebirth or the effect of karma is wrong but with around 2500 years of experiences and observations, I doubt science, with hardly 200 years can prove them right or wrong.

[christiaan]

How many of these unborn children will there have been in the last 10 years in this pseudo religious country?

Perhaps roughly the same as in any other country, proportionally?

And are there in any 'religious countries' (as opposed to 'pseudo-religious countries') in this world?

Yes, relatively spoken we could assume there would not be much difference between a number of non-religious countries and Thailand with regard to abortion, however those countries do not pretend to have a culural code of religion, but a lot of these countries do a lot about prevention of undesired pregnancies, that is a differnce too with Thailand.

I am not sure about the numbers but I wonder if there are - relatively spoken - as many abortions in Islam countries (Indonesia), and in Tibet, Bhutan, and so on.

[phetaroi]

Frankly, I'm disappointed in this forum. There would be more outrage if we were discussing monks owning cell phones, than there is about 2,000 rotting fetuses.

[Brucenkhamen]

And are there in any 'religious countries' (as opposed to 'pseudo-religious countries') in this world?

the only one I can think of is Iran, perhaps Christaan wants Thailand to be more like Iran.

[Brucenkhamen]

Frankly, I'm disappointed in this forum. There would be more outrage if we were discussing monks owning cell phones, than there is about 2,000 rotting fetuses.

Most countries have legal abortion as an option, don't they?

I may be wrong but in Thailand it's only Wats that provide cremation services, it's not like in the West where we have secular funeral directors who take care of things and call in the religious professionals when necessary, so in Thailand it's part of the job if you like in a town Wat.

So is the problem that these monks were too slow in completion of their duties? Or didn't check that the abortions were legal? or nobody did something about it when it became obvious there became too many?

Ideally somebody should have spoken up and got the problem solved before it got too big, but that isn't the Thai way is it.

Not so long ago Thailand was on the brink of civil war.

Edited November 25, 2010 by Brucenkhamen

[christiaan]

And are there in any 'religious countries' (as opposed to 'pseudo-religious countries') in this world?

the only one I can think of is Iran, perhaps Christaan wants Thailand to be more like Iran.

Isn't it out of line to write about what someone else PERHAPS might think.

Such a remark doesnot show clear and healthy thinking, it shows a way of the contributors thinking and I do not consider this way to be part of a serious dialogue.

[christiaan]

Frankly, I'm disappointed in this forum. There would be more outrage if we were discussing monks owning cell phones, than there is about 2,000 rotting fetuses.

You maybe are right.

Do you have any idea why the facts show what you write?

[healthcaretaker]

How many of these unborn children will there have been in the last 10 years in this pseudo religious country?

Perhaps roughly the same as in any other country, proportionally?

And are there in any 'religious countries' (as opposed to 'pseudo-religious countries') in this world?

Yes, relatively spoken we could assume there would not be much difference between a number of non-religious countries and Thailand with regard to abortion, however those countries do not pretend to have a culural code of religion, but a lot of these countries do a lot about prevention of undesired pregnancies, that is a differnce too with Thailand.

I am not sure about the numbers but I wonder if there are - relatively spoken - as many abortions in Islam countries (Indonesia), and in Tibet, Bhutan, and so on.

Are you trying to say that Thailand pretend to have a cultural code of religion ?

Mind your words as this is a popular forum about Thailand.

Anyway, I try to answer in "your way".

IF you do think that Thailand is pretending on her religious aspect, I wonder what do you think of Christianity or Rome's Vatican City ? They are "not pretending". Will you consider them "cheating" when they know very well their claims of adam & eve or how the world was created in 7 days are all pure nonsense.

Now we are in a serious dialogue. Let's face it.

Edited November 25, 2010 by healthcaretaker

[healthcaretaker]

Frankly, I'm disappointed in this forum. There would be more outrage if we were discussing monks owning cell phones, than there is about 2,000 rotting fetuses.

You maybe are right.

Do you have any idea why the facts show what you write?

From the way the OP wrote, it clearly showed his/her idea or intentions. It showed yours too by quoting "islam" Tibet & Bhutan.

Unfortunately, both of you wrote in the wrong forum.

[phetaroi]

From the way the OP wrote, it clearly showed his/her idea or intentions. It showed yours too by quoting "islam" Tibet & Bhutan.

Unfortunately, both of you wrote in the wrong forum.

I have been writing about the responsibilities of Thai Buddhist monks and how their behavior affects Buddhism in Thailand. This forum is about Buddhism.

Edited November 25, 2010 by phetaroi

[christiaan]

How many of these unborn children will there have been in the last 10 years in this pseudo religious country?

Perhaps roughly the same as in any other country, proportionally?

And are there in any 'religious countries' (as opposed to 'pseudo-religious countries') in this world?

Yes, relatively spoken we could assume there would not be much difference between a number of non-religious countries and Thailand with regard to abortion, however those countries do not pretend to have a culural code of religion, but a lot of these countries do a lot about prevention of undesired pregnancies, that is a differnce too with Thailand.

I am not sure about the numbers but I wonder if there are - relatively spoken - as many abortions in Islam countries (Indonesia), and in Tibet, Bhutan, and so on.

Are you trying to say that Thailand pretend to have a cultural code of religion ?

Mind your words as this is a popular forum about Thailand.

Anyway, I try to answer in "your way".

IF you do think that Thailand is pretending on her religious aspect, I wonder what do you think of Christianity or Rome's Vatican City ? They are "not pretending". Will you consider them "cheating" when they know very well their claims of adam & eve or how the world was created in 7 days are all pure nonsense.

Now we are in a serious dialogue. Let's face it.

[christiaan]

When I would step in line with your way of thinking I now should have to start by writing you are out of topic and out of forum when you write about Cristianity, Rome's Vatican City, Adam and Eve and the creation of the world in seven days.

Then I can repeat to my observation many non-religious countries do not pretend to have a culural code of religion, and thats different from Thailand.

This is not my opinion, but the consequence of my observations until now.

Then, as far as I can see, the majority of the Roman Catholics do not pretend to believe in their explanation of the Bible, they believe in it in their way, and ofcourse there will be some in some particular situation who will pretend but that will be a very very small number.

In most western societies it brings no general advance or disadvance to be Christian or not to be Christian, to be of some religious believe or not to be.

In those countries fortunately religion is not directly connected to political power and state power, or social status anymore.

But In Buddhist Thailand an expelled general - being responsible for murder - can return to the country disguised as a Buddhist monk, this in a western country in itself would considered to be a crime.

Then, with regard to your remark: Will you consider them "cheating" when they know very well their claims of adam & eve or how the world was created in 7 days are all pure nonsense.

I think as this is just learned to be facts of Catholic believe I do not think this is cheating but this is in general about the same as the children in Thailand are learned at school about Buddhism.

'Just accept what you are teached'

It is merely reproducing what people themself do not understand but accept as given facts, this is conditioning by people who are conditioned themself.

Being raised Catholic originally, it is not my experience the people teached these facts very well were aware these facts where to question and maybe not even right, or had to be told in a different way.

Then, after rejecting the Catholic Roman Church and Christian religious power institutions long time ago, I discovered the Bible is quite correct and no nonsense in telling about the origin of the world.

And it is very interesting to see all the different stories out of revelations all over the world make an interesting complete coherent 'reporting' of these subjects.

But I will not go into this further on this forum - even when people will make - in their 'profound' way - challenging remarks - since this forum is, as Phetaroi clearly stated and supported, about Buddhism.

[Brucenkhamen]

Isn't it out of line to write about what someone else PERHAPS might think.

Such a remark doesnot show clear and healthy thinking, it shows a way of the contributors thinking and I do not consider this way to be part of a serious dialogue.

I wouldn't have thought so, below are some examples from just one thread when you've done exactly that. At least mine was somewhat light hearted and designed to encourage getting things in perspective.

Nice try.

In your way of thinking even telling people about Nirvana, meditation and enlightment can be a hinderance too.

If you think my questions and topics overhere are in no way helpfull to you, ...you must not read it.

The other thing some people think is helpfull is spreading some texts as dogma.

Would suggest you use the reliable part of your thinking to think about the unreliable part, and to use the reliable thinking with regard to the objects of unreliable thinking. Maybe that would solve your problems,

not in the least showing your personal attitude, I think I have to understand in your opinion...

[Brucenkhamen]

Then, after rejecting the Catholic Roman Church and Christian religious power institutions long time ago, I discovered the Bible is quite correct and no nonsense in telling about the origin of the world.

Not meaning to speculate on what you think but it appears to be the only interpretation of the above, you believe the world was created in six days then?

I think even a lot of Christians wouldn't believe it was a "correct and no nonsense in telling about the origin of the world".

As a Buddhist I couldn't claim all Buddhist scripture was "correct and no nonsense" either.

Edited November 26, 2010 by Brucenkhamen

[christiaan]

Isn't it out of line to write about what someone else PERHAPS might think.

Such a remark doesnot show clear and healthy thinking, it shows a way of the contributors thinking and I do not consider this way to be part of a serious dialogue.

I wouldn't have thought so, below are some examples from just one thread when you've done exactly that. At least mine was somewhat light hearted and designed to encourage getting things in perspective.

Nice try.

In your way of thinking even telling people about Nirvana, meditation and enlightment can be a hinderance too.

If you think my questions and topics overhere are in no way helpfull to you, ...you must not read it.

The other thing some people think is helpfull is spreading some texts as dogma.

Would suggest you use the reliable part of your thinking to think about the unreliable part, and to use the reliable thinking with regard to the objects of unreliable thinking. Maybe that would solve your problems,

not in the least showing your personal attitude, I think I have to understand in your opinion...

I nowhere wrote what an individual PERHAPS might think.

[christiaan]

Then, after rejecting the Catholic Roman Church and Christian religious power institutions long time ago, I discovered the Bible is quite correct and no nonsense in telling about the origin of the world.

Not meaning to speculate on what you think but it appears to be the only interpretation of the above, you believe the world was created in six days then?

I think even a lot of Christians wouldn't believe it was a "correct and no nonsense in telling about the origin of the world".

As a Buddhist I couldn't claim all Buddhist scripture was "correct and no nonsense" either.

Untill now I discovered, by what I studied, the teachings of Buddha, that are more or less accepted to be true teachings of Buddha, are quite correct and no nonsense in telling about personal spiritual development

[christiaan]

Then, after rejecting the Catholic Roman Church and Christian religious power institutions long time ago, I discovered the Bible is quite correct and no nonsense in telling about the origin of the world.

Not meaning to speculate on what you think but it appears to be the only interpretation of the above, you believe the world was created in six days then?

I think even a lot of Christians wouldn't believe it was a "correct and no nonsense in telling about the origin of the world".

As a Buddhist I couldn't claim all Buddhist scripture was "correct and no nonsense" either.

I am not surprised you not respect my remark: I will not go into this further on this forum - even when people will make - in their 'profound' way - challenging remarks - since this forum is, as Phetaroi clearly stated and supported, about Buddhism.

[sabaijai]

How many of these unborn children will there have been in the last 10 years in this pseudo religious country?

Perhaps roughly the same as in any other country, proportionally?

And are there in any 'religious countries' (as opposed to 'pseudo-religious countries') in this world?

Yes, relatively spoken we could assume there would not be much difference between a number of non-religious countries and Thailand with regard to abortion, however those countries do not pretend to have a culural code of religion, but a lot of these countries do a lot about prevention of undesired pregnancies, that is a differnce too with Thailand.

I am not sure about the numbers but I wonder if there are - relatively spoken - as many abortions in Islam countries (Indonesia), and in Tibet, Bhutan, and so on.

It appears you know little about the facts under discussion. The Thai government has actually accomplished quite a lot to prevent unwanted pregnancies through public education and health services, having the well-regarded National Family Planning Programme in place since the 1970s.

The programme significantly contributed to the decrease in the annual population growth rate from 3.3% in the mid-1970s to 0.6% in 2005. During the same period, the number of children per family fell from 7 to under two. That outperforms just about any other nation in the world since that time.

Meanwhile a legendary NGO, Population and Community Development Association (PDA), utilises a participatory, community-based approach, recruiting and training residents of villages and urban neighborhoods to provide information on family planning, including the supervised, non-medical distribution of oral contraceptives. Condom use for both contraception and disease prevention is one of the highest in Asia.

I don’t see that Thailand in any way “pretends to have a cultural code of religion.” Thailand has no state religion.

[Brucenkhamen]

I nowhere wrote what an individual PERHAPS might think.

Indeed. So your objection is to the use of the word "Perhaps"? Perhaps next time I'll use the word "maybe" instead.

[healthcaretaker]

Over my years of experience in reading forums and personal encounters with christians, I can see and sense very well how they will find ways and opportunities to attack Buddhism in a profound way and most of the time they know how in pretend and evade questions which they could not answer. This thread showed some good examples.

I am more curious to know why are christians so fearful of Buddhism. Is it because Buddhism is gaining more popularity and getting closer to science or is it because christianity is losing supporters due to new discovery by science ?

[healthcaretaker]

I nowhere wrote what an individual PERHAPS might think.

Indeed. So your objection is to the use of the word "Perhaps"? Perhaps next time I'll use the word "maybe" instead.

Just tell him or her to cut the craps and get straight to the point and face the subject and topic directly instead of pretending or misleading by twisting or changing words.

[rockyysdt]

The programme significantly contributed to the decrease in the annual population growth rate from 3.3% in the mid-1970s to 0.6% in 2005. During the same period, the number of children per family fell from 7 to under two. That outperforms just about any other nation in the world since that time.

Meanwhile a legendary NGO, Population and Community Development Association (PDA), utilises a participatory, community-based approach, recruiting and training residents of villages and urban neighborhoods to provide information on family planning, including the supervised, non-medical distribution of oral contraceptives. Condom use for both contraception and disease prevention is one of the highest in Asia.

I don't see that Thailand in any way "pretends to have a cultural code of religion." Thailand has no state religion.

Hi SJ.

Is the National Family Planning Program predominantly education based?

Education is an important facet of birth control, but affordability is equally important.

I don't know about oral contraception but condoms are far too expensive for the millions of rural poor in Thailand.

Average Thai incomes are only a fraction of what is earned by the working class in the West.

On the other hand condoms are sold at international prices.

Edited November 26, 2010 by rockyysdt

[phetaroi]

I don’t see that Thailand in any way “pretends to have a cultural code of religion.” Thailand has no state religion.

If you mean that the Thai government does not have an "official" state religion, I guess you're correct, but I would submit that that concept is in word only.

Virtually every Thai government ceremony is entrenched in Buddhist ritual. The King or Crown Prince changes the robes of the Emerald Buddha each season. At least when I've been there, Wat Phra Keow is guarded by the military.

Now, I don't personally find that problematic. I'm just pointing out that in reality, Thailand does have a government religion. In fact, as I recall, the Sangha has to answer to the government.

[eurasianthai]

How do you take care of a child when you have no money?

And do not know the father or the father does not care?

Well, I guess the Thai government has the answer.

Edited November 26, 2010 by eurasianthai

[christiaan]

And are there in any 'religious countries' (as opposed to 'pseudo-religious countries') in this world?

the only one I can think of is Iran, perhaps Christaan wants Thailand to be more like Iran.

In a serious conversation with a serious interest and an open mind one could ask such a question to the person involved. when it would be in line with former contributions.

However such a question related to me would be quite bizar becos I wrote I am a free thinker.

Such a statement of PERHAPS is directed over someones head, in this case me, to the supposed public to create some kind of mood and actualy try to stigmatize someone.

If you would have written, perhaps some people would like Thailand to become more like Iran, that remark would to some extend also be out of line but I would not have reacted.

However, you relate this to a contributor without directing yourself to the contributor you write about, only you will know out of what intention you choose to do so and choose to do the way you do.

And your intention is: I am not writing related to Buddhism??? making a remark about me PERHAPS wanting Thailand to become more like Iran and not even respect it when I write I do not want to go further into discussions about Christianity since this forum is about Buddhism?

When people like to write about Christianity in general, and in special about its supposed fear for Buddhisme one should go to visit a forum centered around the topic Christianity.

I my self do not fear Buddhism at all, I see no reason at all to do so, I only think it is possible the way some people handle and use Buddhism is insulting and damaging Buddhism and by this humanity.

[christiaan]

I don't see that Thailand in any way "pretends to have a cultural code of religion." Thailand has no state religion.

If you mean that the Thai government does not have an "official" state religion, I guess you're correct, but I would submit that that concept is in word only.

Virtually every Thai government ceremony is entrenched in Buddhist ritual. The King or Crown Prince changes the robes of the Emerald Buddha each season. At least when I've been there, Wat Phra Keow is guarded by the military.

Now, I don't personally find that problematic. I'm just pointing out that in reality, Thailand does have a government religion. In fact, as I recall, the Sangha has to answer to the government.

And these are facts out of observation and so the reality we are dealing with.

[christiaan]

How many of these unborn children will there have been in the last 10 years in this pseudo religious country?

Perhaps roughly the same as in any other country, proportionally?

And are there in any 'religious countries' (as opposed to 'pseudo-religious countries') in this world?

Yes, relatively spoken we could assume there would not be much difference between a number of non-religious countries and Thailand with regard to abortion, however those countries do not pretend to have a culural code of religion, but a lot of these countries do a lot about prevention of undesired pregnancies, that is a differnce too with Thailand.

I am not sure about the numbers but I wonder if there are - relatively spoken - as many abortions in Islam countries (Indonesia), and in Tibet, Bhutan, and so on.

It appears you know little about the facts under discussion. The Thai government has actually accomplished quite a lot to prevent unwanted pregnancies through public education and health services, having the well-regarded National Family Planning Programme in place since the 1970s.

The programme significantly contributed to the decrease in the annual population growth rate from 3.3% in the mid-1970s to 0.6% in 2005. During the same period, the number of children per family fell from 7 to under two. That outperforms just about any other nation in the world since that time.

Meanwhile a legendary NGO, Population and Community Development Association (PDA), utilises a participatory, community-based approach, recruiting and training residents of villages and urban neighborhoods to provide information on family planning, including the supervised, non-medical distribution of oral contraceptives. Condom use for both contraception and disease prevention is one of the highest in Asia.

I don’t see that Thailand in any way “pretends to have a cultural code of religion.” Thailand has no state religion.

I am no specialist in this matter, but 2.200 aborted children collected in a building to me could be part of an explanation of the fall back of birthnumbers in Thailand (?)

Do the statistics tell why it happened, this drop back in births?

Are the pregnancies also registrated, I think this is about impossible but a dropped number of pregnancies could tell the story.

Or is it just that people think cos the programm was installed that would be the cause of the fall back?

When this programm itself had such a great effect and has been so succesfull, why do so many people complain about the immature and ridiculous way Thai people run most of their affairs?

This is the exception?

In many western countries abortion to my knowledge is not considered the way of familyplanning, it is the last "rescue" when something before didnot worked as it should.

I read somewhere that most of the abortions in Thailand are related to woman under 25 years, does this show a lot of awareness for birthcontrol by the group up to 25 years living within this programm of the NGO??

Maybe birthreduction did became significant becos the availabillity of abortion and the money to pay for this has increased?

How many Thai woman - under 25 years- left Thailand in the last 30 years?

How many young Thai woman nowadays do not want to marry (soon) and like to stay independent to protect themself for abuse in marriage, earning money and welfare in their independency instead of loosing this ?

By the stories of my Thai girlfriend I understand there have been dramatical changes in Thailand in the last 35 years, I would not be surprised when the NGO is just one of the factors and not the most important one, however it will have put the attention and awareness to the possibillity and the advantages of not to have - a lot of - children anymore.

[Brucenkhamen]

In a serious conversation with a serious interest and an open mind one could ask such a question to the person involved. when it would be in line with former contributions.

I think pretty much your series of posts that circle around a theme that is something along the lines of Thailand is a Buddhist country so Thais should be good examples of following Buddhist morals hasn’t been taken seriously, by anyone.

However such a question related to me would be quite bizar becos I wrote I am a free thinker.

Indeed you did, a few times I think.

Such a statement of PERHAPS is directed over someones head, in this case me, to the supposed public to create some kind of mood and actualy try to stigmatize someone.

You are incorrect, a statement including the word “perhaps” it doesn’t mean it’s directed over somebody’s head, the word just adds a notion of uncertainty.

My one liner in question was replying to Sabaijai’s reply to you, so the second part was added as an afterthought, as a reality check. So from that point of view if one were looking at it subjectively one could feel it was being directed over ones head I suppose.

Care to wager whether you’ve never done the same on this forum?

I think if you let yourself get upset about little things like that then the rough and tumble of the internet is probably not for you.

If you would have written, perhaps some people would like Thailand to become more like Iran, that remark would to some extend also be out of line but I would not have reacted.

Nobody would think that, that’s the point. Please don’t tell me I’m out of line by speculating on what nobody thinks.

And your intention is: I am not writing related to Buddhism??? making a remark about me PERHAPS wanting Thailand to become more like Iran and not even respect it when I write I do not want to go further into discussions about Christianity since this forum is about Buddhism?

I’d have thought reacting, taking as personal, and making an issue of a small off the cuff remark that wasn’t intended to be personal at all is also taking the thread off topic, but that’s the nature of internet forums.

I only think it is possible the way some people handle and use Buddhism is insulting and damaging Buddhism and by this humanity.

Agreed, this is just the nature of organised religion unfortunately.