Burmese-German Parents In Thailand

[Coffeehouse]

As written above. My burmese wife (only married buddhistically) and me (German, I am here since 14 months now on 2 tourist visa and 1 work visa) stay on Koh Tao and had our son born 6 days ago in Samui hospital.

I am unsure wether he needs a visa or not. I went to something called "Tesseban" on Samui to get the birth certificate but had only brought my wifes passport since I assumed he would be registered in her name only since we are not married by law yet. Anyways, I was told they needed both passports so I will go back to Samui in 2 weeks with those documents. We will go to the german embassy in BKK later to claim my fatherhood and have him become a german citizens (besides hopefully also maintaining his burmese citizenship).

I just wrote that because maybe it will help to tell me if he needs a Visa or not. I assume it is not like the USA where somebody being born there would justify a green card for the parents as well? But maybe he is exempt from Visa up to a certain age?

[lopburi3]

Not a citizen of Thailand so needs a visa for a new entry - but as is already in the country there is no overstay charge for not having one or a permitted to stay stamp. But both a passport and birth certificate would be required for exit.

[Mario2008]

As the birth certificate will be in Thai, best to prepare a Thai translation of your name, the mother's name and the child's name.

Birth of baby must be registered within 15 days, fine of reporting late is 500 baht. Normally registration is done at the amphur, not tesseban.

[Coffeehouse]

As the birth certificate will be in Thai, best to prepare a Thai translation of your name, the mother's name and the child's name. 

Birth of baby must be registered within 15 days, fine of reporting late is 500 baht. Normally registration is done at the amphur, not tesseban.

I was told Tesseban. And the staff there seemed to think too that I was at the right place. Maybe Samui differs from BKK or other places.

The nurse here on Koh Tao tho told us it would be possible to register on Koh Tao too and I wouldnt have to go back to Samui.

Just f.e. I would leave the country in a year or so to get a  new non immigrant O-Visa. Would my son get the same Visa in that case automatically or does he not qualify for the same Visa that I do qualify for?

[lopburi3]

Exactly how do you qualify?

[Coffeehouse]

Exactly how do you qualify?

I do not understand the question. Different consulates grant different Visas with different paperwork as you probably know, some are lenient some are strict.

If a consulate in Germany issues me a Visa of any kind  for whatever reason would I just be able to check a box named "including 1 minor under blabla years of age" or something like that?

[lopburi3]

You do not seem to have what would be considered an extend-able reason for such a visa issue it seems so that could not be used as the basis for issue of such a visa for your child. Child would have to obtain under the same conditions as you, if Consulate will issue. But as said in my other post there is no need for more than a tourist or visa exempt entry as children are not going to be charged overstay fees.

[Coffeehouse]

You do not seem to have what would be considered an extend-able reason for such a visa issue it seems so that could not be used as the basis for issue of such a visa for your child.  Child would have to obtain under the same conditions as you, if Consulate will issue.  But as said in my other post there is no need for more than a tourist or visa exempt entry as children are not going to be charged overstay fees.

I thank you for your answers. Your tone seems a bit investigative though.

I got from your first post that the child does not need to worry because in this case it got into the country by being born here and NOT that it does not need to worry because it is a child and thereby cannot get overstay. Basically that means I would get whatever Visa I can get and the child just receives the 30 day visa exemption and stays with me the whole year because it (and me for being the father) cannot get penalized? That sounds strange, but might just be true.

I don´t know how you read from my posts that I do not qualify for certain visas or extentions. There is a certain consulate in my country that issues a work visa without company paperwork but by just requesting 150 Euro or something to that amount another consulate requests enormous amounts of letters and forms. I know people who have been using those for years and I am not sure they qualify more than me.

Anyways, thank you for the informative parts of your answers. I appreciate it.

[lopburi3]

Below age 15 there is no overstay for children under current policy.

We have to ask questions as it effects how we answer. Normally non immigrant visa entry allows one year extension of stay if for a recognized reason and that can be very helpful for many people.

[Coffeehouse]

Below age 15 there is no overstay for children under current policy.

We have to ask questions as it effects how we answer. Normally non immigrant visa entry allows one year extension of stay if for a recognized reason and that can be very helpful for many people.

Yes that would be helpful to know. In that case I might not qualify, because basically I trying to stay in a cheap, warm and comfortable country like Thailand. I assume that you do not work for the thai government and use those information against me. Please let me know quickly if you believe this information is dangerous to be posted here so I can edit my post.

If I could get unlimited back to back tourist visa. Preferably triple entry. I might just do that. Although this certain visa is a multiple entry visa that would give me a total of up to 15 months without having to pay for 30 day extentions as I had to with the tourist visa.

Edited November 25, 2010 by lopburi3
delete excess information per request

[TerryLH]

"I assume it is not like the USA where somebody being born there would justify a green card for the parents as well?"

I believe that's not the case in the US, as well.

[lopburi3]

Actually being born in the USA provides full citizenship rights so no green card required.

[Coffeehouse]

Actually being born in the USA provides full citizenship rights so no green card required.

Yes, and even better. By having their son being eligible for a green card, his parents are able to get a similar deal, since the minor needs to be cared for, if he was to stay in the USA.

But apparently that is not my issue here.

Since you did not write anything, I assume my aforementioned honest answer is unlikely to get me into trouble.

I did not sign up with personal information but I suppose IPs can be tracked by Thai officials, if it is in their interest.

Edited November 25, 2010 by lopburi3
remove last sentence

[lopburi3]

Was away from computer. I misread the previous post and edited your previous post. The child gets citizenship - missed the parents as well (eye drop time is my excuse for bad reading).

[Coffeehouse]

I have to correct myself.

It is not a greencard that the newborn gets but full citizenship.

Parents do not get automatic green cards by that but still their children can serve as a sort of  "anchor child". How exactly it allows the parents to stay and work in the USA by that, I do not know. It seems there are ways.

[klauswernst198]

German law don't allow for double citizenship and since a few years they are really serious about this. So basically you would have to choose what citizenship do you want for you kid.

[Mario2008]

German law don't allow for double citizenship and since a few years they are really serious about this. So basically you would have to choose what citizenship do you want for you kid.

I believe that is a bit to strict statement. As far as I know German law does allow dual nationality, but only under special circumstances.

Although dual citizenship is restricted under German law, it can be held in limited circumstances:

• where a child born to German parents acquires another citizenship at birth (e.g. based on place of birth, or descent from one parent).
• where a German citizen acquires a foreign nationality with the permission of the German government
• where a naturalized German citizen, or a child born to non-German parents in Germany, obtains permission to keep his foreign nationality

source: wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_nationality_law

[tombkk]

German law don't allow for double citizenship and since a few years they are really serious about this. So basically you would have to choose what citizenship do you want for you kid.

I believe that is a bit to strict statement. As far as I know German law does allow dual nationality, but only under special circumstances.

German law certainly allows for dual nationality. I know of people who applied for Thai nationality and all they needed is a confirmation from the German authorities that they agree that the individual applies for another citizenship. You'll have to go through some bureaucratic loops to get that confirmation, but that's as expected.

[bina]

the question is moot anyhow; the child doesnt get citizenship in thailand since mother is burmese and father german, the child is a dependant of the father/or mother, ; which, btw, could, in itself, be a major headache... dont they have rules about mix marriages? (maybe confused with campuchea), and what her status is, in thailand...

[Mario2008]

Not moot, the child could have German and Burmese nationality if the father legitimises the child. But indeed the child doesn't have Thai nationality.

Burma doesn't allow it's citizens the marry with foreigners, so getting a letter from the Burmese embassy that someone is free to marry will be a mayor obstacle. But believe not impossible.

[crazygreg44]

Allow me a small contribution on this matter, please.

A child born by a german father - foreign mother, will receive a german passport at the local German Embassy, if the father shows up with the infant's birth certificate and claims fathership.

If the baby also holds another - lets say, Thai citizenship by birth, the german Embassy will hand out the German passport nevertheless.

Dual citizenships apply until its holder turn 18 years old. At this time, under german law, they will have to decide under which citizenship they like to remain. If the 18 year old says he/she wants to keep a Thai citizenship, the german passport will get revoked.

The situation here is, the newborn will show up with a Thai birth certificate , born from a Burmese mother with Burmese passport. The prospected father will have to show both documents to the German Embassy to claim fathership and receive a german passport for the newborn. As it will be the sole citizenship of this baby - we said before that it will not be granted burmese citizenship, at least not on the spot - why would the father worry about double citizenships anyways ??

One poster here warned that time limits apply. I would suggest to the Father to make sure he gets all required documents within the periods required as soon as possible to don t hang around between Koh Tao and Samui !! A call to the german Embassy would help greatly , isn't it ?? Or do you need Mum's help on this ?

As the baby is now neither a Thai nor a Burmese citizen , so we are tempted to believe it falls under Thai Visa rules. However, some posters here define that Thailand does not fine overstay for infants upon leaving Thailand. It seems to be fair, and I think the OP can trust on posts giving this fact. He should remain calm under any circumstances and don t worry much about it.

Upon leaving Thailand WITH the baby, however the father needs to show birth certificate , and maybe even a statement that he is sole caretaker. I am not sure about the caretaking issue. One might imply that Immigration wants to see a proof the father is not kidnapping the child from the natural mother. Maybe I am just paranoid over this, why would they stop father AND child on the airport on the way out ?

After he has left Thailand WITH the baby , lets say for Germany, on any return to Thailand the baby falls under Thai visa rules regarding minors of foreign parents.

[Arkady]

For the sake of clarity children born in Thailand to alien parents get Thai nationality only if both parents were permanent residents with Certificate of Residence and Alien Registration Book at the time of birth. Before December 1972 every one born in Thailand got Thai citizenship, even if their parents were illegal immigrants. Now they have no special rights at all, if either parent is not a PR.

[bina]

Upon leaving Thailand WITH the baby, however the father needs to show birth certificate , and maybe even a statement that he is sole caretaker. I am not sure about the caretaking issue. One might imply that Immigration wants to see a proof the father is not kidnapping the child from the natural mother

although not part of the origial OP question, THAT is the more pressing question i guess... what happens if the family wants to leave thailand, or the father, or say, the mother to burma with the child.... there have been a few burmese/ farang (foreigner) questions on the forum, they all were dealing with marriage issues but those issues actually have an affect on the child at some point in time... the main point is to get the child citizenship of at least one country which seems to be, at this time, germany, so he/she doesnt end up stateless/ the visa question will be easier to deal with until age 14 anyhow, since thailand doesnt charge for overstay at the moment for children..

bina

[sirchai]

Allow me a small contribution on this matter, please.

A child born by a german father - foreign mother, will receive a german passport at the local German Embassy, if the father shows up with the infant's birth certificate and claims fathership.

If the baby also holds another - lets say, Thai citizenship by birth, the german Embassy will hand out the German passport nevertheless.

Dual citizenships apply until its holder turn 18 years old. At this time, under german law, they will have to decide under which citizenship they like to remain. If the 18 year old says he/she wants to keep a Thai citizenship, the german passport will get revoked.

The situation here is, the newborn will show up with a Thai birth certificate , born from a Burmese mother with Burmese passport. The prospected father will have to show both documents to the German Embassy to claim fathership and receive a german passport for the newborn. As it will be the sole citizenship of this baby - we said before that it will not be granted burmese citizenship, at least not on the spot - why would the father worry about double citizenships anyways ??

One poster here warned that time limits apply. I would suggest to the Father to make sure he gets all required documents within the periods required as soon as possible to don t hang around between Koh Tao and Samui !! A call to the german Embassy would help greatly , isn't it ?? Or do you need Mum's help on this ?

As the baby is now neither a Thai nor a Burmese citizen , so we are tempted to believe it falls under Thai Visa rules. However, some posters here define that Thailand does not fine overstay for infants upon leaving Thailand. It seems to be fair, and I think the OP can trust on posts giving this fact. He should remain calm under any circumstances and don t worry much about it.

Upon leaving Thailand WITH the baby, however the father needs to show birth certificate , and maybe even a statement that he is sole caretaker. I am not sure about the caretaking issue. One might imply that Immigration wants to see a proof the father is not kidnapping the child from the natural mother. Maybe I am just paranoid over this, why would they stop father AND child on the airport on the way out ?

After he has left Thailand WITH the baby , lets say for Germany, on any return to Thailand the baby falls under Thai visa rules regarding minors of foreign parents.

The child will easily receive a German passport, if you can proof that you're the father. Make sure that you'll have the birth certificate! Be careful with your type of visa, it seems to me that you don't for fill the criteria to obtain a Non- O. It's mostly for people married to Thai citizens, or retirement visas.

What type of visa is the Burmese girl on? Holding a work permit? Go to the German embassy to make sure that you're not enforcing the Thai law, I've met many illegal Burmese people here in LOS, so please be careful what you're doing.

But be aware that you've got to have an appointment at the embassy, you can't just go there.

It's not just the Land of Wais, also the Land od lies.

Sorry, but the Burmese girl might be married back in her country, so the whole story is really difficult to answer. Wish you good luck. Chock Dee na.

[Artabus]

Hello my friend

Some of your posts worry me a little. For example, why did you consider that only the mother would be registered as parent? And why even consider Burmese nationality? It's fortunate indeed for your child that the regulations are such that s/he will be considered German, and also that you were advised to bring along your passport and record yourself as the natural father. So at the moment there is no harm caused to him/her, by your apparent lack of thought as to what sort of life you want for them.

However, you need to wake up and realise that as a parent, your obligation now is to provide for them. I am not talking about just whether or not your job pays enough (that's not my concern or business), I am talking about something far more important. Have you at any stage stopped for one moment, and said to yourself - what is the path to a better life for my child? To be in the sole parental control of a Burmese, and to be Burmese - or for me as the father to take my child to Germany, give them a German education, and give them all the opportunities available to them because of life in the West..?

As for the fact that you want a nice life in the sun (I paraphrase slightly what you say), well sure, we can all understand that. And of course, we many of us also think that Thailand and Burma have many things to teach the West; for myself, I think there is a lot about the West I don't like. But this is a luxury for us, to be able to consider these things. And the ability to consider these things is also helped by having a good start in life.

So please, now is the time to put your child first. That means before yourself. Think about what that little bundle sitting in your arms, so helpless, needs. Not just now, but all the way through to adulthood.

If any of this upsets you, or is so very obvious to you, then my apologies. Feel free to PM me.

P.S. I'm also not sure I would advertise on ThaiVisa that there is a consulate in Germany that issues work visas for 150 Euros, no questions asked...

[ffm]

A child born by a german father - foreign mother, will receive a german passport at the local German Embassy, if the father shows up with the infant's birth certificate and claims fathership.

According to German law, the child is a German citizen if one or both of its natural parents are German (there are some exceptions here, but probably not relevant in the OP's case). However, just showing up at the embassy with a birth certificate probably won't be enough.

If the child's parents are not married then the embassy has to confirm that the baby was indeen born out of wedlock. That means that the mother has to prove that she was not married at the time of birth (otherwise the husband would automatically be considered to be the father). So some additional paperwork will probably be necessary, which will possibly include documents that have to be issued by Burmese authorities.

This case is not the standard case the German embassy in BKK has to deal with because no Thai person is involved, so I recommend the OP contact the German embassy as soon as possible and ask which documents they need to legally confirm paternity.

They certainly don't allows shortcuts in these cases. For the child and its mother, the child's German citizenship basically means they both will have access to Germany, including all the social welfare benefits this country provides. If the father declares his paternity then he will be legally and financially responsible for the child, and the embassy will make sure he understands what this means.

Dual citizenships apply until its holder turn 18 years old. At this time, under german law, they will have to decide under which citizenship they like to remain. If the 18 year old says he/she wants to keep a Thai citizenship, the german passport will get revoked.

Sorry, but you are wrong here. A German citizen by birth can't be forced to give up his citizenship, regardless what other nationalities he may have. The limitation is only relevant for naturalized German citizens. On the other hand the Thai law is ambiguous here, so German-Thai citizen by birth may be forced to give up one nationality by the Thai authorities, but certainly not by the German side.

[siam2007]

You do not seem to have what would be considered an extend-able reason for such a visa issue it seems so that could not be used as the basis for issue of such a visa for your child. Child would have to obtain under the same conditions as you, if Consulate will issue. But as said in my other post there is no need for more than a tourist or visa exempt entry as children are not going to be charged overstay fees.

I thank you for your answers. Your tone seems a bit investigative though.

I got from your first post that the child does not need to worry because in this case it got into the country by being born here and NOT that it does not need to worry because it is a child and thereby cannot get overstay. Basically that means I would get whatever Visa I can get and the child just receives the 30 day visa exemption and stays with me the whole year because it (and me for being the father) cannot get penalized? That sounds strange, but might just be true.

I don´t know how you read from my posts that I do not qualify for certain visas or extentions. There is a certain consulate in my country that issues a work visa without company paperwork but by just requesting 150 Euro or something to that amount

STUTTGART, me thinks {==}

.

[Arkady]

A child born by a german father - foreign mother, will receive a german passport at the local German Embassy, if the father shows up with the infant's birth certificate and claims fathership.

According to German law, the child is a German citizen if one or both of its natural parents are German (there are some exceptions here, but probably not relevant in the OP's case). However, just showing up at the embassy with a birth certificate probably won't be enough.

If the child's parents are not married then the embassy has to confirm that the baby was indeen born out of wedlock. That means that the mother has to prove that she was not married at the time of birth (otherwise the husband would automatically be considered to be the father). So some additional paperwork will probably be necessary, which will possibly include documents that have to be issued by Burmese authorities.

This case is not the standard case the German embassy in BKK has to deal with because no Thai person is involved, so I recommend the OP contact the German embassy as soon as possible and ask which documents they need to legally confirm paternity.

They certainly don't allows shortcuts in these cases. For the child and its mother, the child's German citizenship basically means they both will have access to Germany, including all the social welfare benefits this country provides. If the father declares his paternity then he will be legally and financially responsible for the child, and the embassy will make sure he understands what this means.

Dual citizenships apply until its holder turn 18 years old. At this time, under german law, they will have to decide under which citizenship they like to remain. If the 18 year old says he/she wants to keep a Thai citizenship, the german passport will get revoked.

Sorry, but you are wrong here. A German citizen by birth can't be forced to give up his citizenship, regardless what other nationalities he may have. The limitation is only relevant for naturalized German citizens. On the other hand the Thai law is ambiguous here, so German-Thai citizen by birth may be forced to give up one nationality by the Thai authorities, but certainly not by the German side.

Not the case in the Thai Nationality Act. While Version 2 of the current Act in 1992 did specify in Section 14 that luk kreung must not retain another nationality after the age of 21, if they chose to remain Thai, Version 3 which appeared only three weeks later quickly amended the wording back to what it was in Version 1 of 1965, i.e. to give them the option to renounce Thai nationality between the ages of 20 and 21, if they chose to. It is assumed that they might renounce Thai nationality, if they wish to retain the nationality of another country that insists on only one nationality or for males to avoid conscription. Many people, including some Thai government officials incorrectly interpret this section of the Act as if Version 2 were still in force.

Edited December 1, 2010 by Arkady

[may2011]

As far as I know, Burma (Myanmar) not allow dual citizenship.