Killing The Golden Goose

[torasap]

Lately, my sister-in-law stated that she wanted to start up a coffee business in Nakhon Sri Thammarat. She currently lives with my wife's family in Bangkok, but apparently had a good friend in NST whose family (government employees) could provide a good network to back them up. One month ago, I agreed with my wife to transfer 20.000 baht so as to help them with financing the business establishment. Or maybe it was her who agreed with me about it.

A few weeks later (this weekend), it turned out that she wouldn't start up the project right away, and she asked us how we would like to have the money returned. Since WU charges exorbitant fees for simple money transfers, we asked her to buy one baht of gold with it, and keep it for us until next time we go to Thailand. First she said that she would wait for a good time to buy the gold, and I guess you all know what actually happened - the money is now gone. Not only has the money been spent, she really p!ssed it away going out with her friends. Yet still, when her 16-year-old daughter (i.e my wife's niece) asked the mother for money to purchase study aids, she would be scolded.

As if this wasn't enough, my sister-in-law has asked us for another 20.000 to start up a similar project in Pattaya. I got furious when my wife told me about the proposal. Her older sister's behaviour was downright foolish from the start, but if I lend them more money, I will of course be the foolish one. I do not resent my sister-in-law for what she did - this is more than a useful lesson. Until paid, I can keep the figurative IOU as an ace up my sleeve. But how dare they come with business funding "proposals" after this? Although my wife is on my side in this now, nobody knows how long it will take until she starts believing her sister's lies again. I just said to her: "Sure, your sister can borrow 20K. But first she has to return the initial 20K she borrowed from us, then she can borrow another 20K" She thought it was unkind to say that, but I couldn't really care less.

1) How can people be so stupid to ruin things for themselves like this when they are in need of funds?

2) What makes them think they can screw people over and still expect to have their trust? Is it a big-person-small-person-thing?

3) Would you expect such behaviour from a 36-year-old?

Edited November 30, 2010 by cdnvic
removed profanity and rephrased question to conform to rules

[bangkokcitylimits]

Total lack of logic thinking, lack of backbone, lack of proper education and learning the values on life. Minds completely being hacked by the system.

[steelepulse]

This happens all over the world, all of the time from this small incident, to Bernie Madoff ripping off billions of dollars in "business proposals". Be thankful you've cut your losses to this small amount.

[james24]

Total lack of logic thinking, lack of backbone, lack of proper education and learning the values on life. Minds completely being hacked by the system.

I really couldnt agree more. Its not Thai people its Thailand

Edited November 30, 2010 by james24

[Berkshire]

Just for clarification, you're not talking about all Thais. You're talking specifically about your wife's family, or your wife's sister. It would make more sense if you were to suggest that your wife's sister is greedy and stupid and foolish, and maybe that your wife's entire family is like this, including her, and maybe you were stupid to marry her....which would make more sense than asking "how can (all) Thais be so stupid to ruin things for themselves...." when this really has nothing to do with the average Thai-at-large.

[cardholder]

Just for clarification, you're not talking about all Thais. You're talking specifically about your wife's family, or your wife's sister. It would make more sense if you were to suggest that your wife's sister is greedy and stupid and foolish, and maybe that your wife's entire family is like this, including her, and maybe you were stupid to marry her....which would make more sense than asking "how can (all) Thais be so stupid to ruin things for themselves...." when this really has nothing to do with the average Thai-at-large.

Sadly, this has a lot to do with the "average Thai at large".

Whilst the OP's comments were perhaps a bit too 'broad brush', they are entirely valid and do not just relate to Falang/Thai relationships - infact it is more prevalant in Thai/Thai situations.

The cultural fundamentals are established in james24's post.

[SweeneyAgonistes]

Perhaps she saw you more as an easy mark, rather than a golden goose, in which case it might have been quite sensible.

[torasap]

Perhaps she saw you more as an easy mark, rather than a golden goose, in which case it might have been quite sensible.

Of course - but don't you think she would have used that card for a higher amount than just 20K?

Edited November 30, 2010 by torasap

[MrJohnson]

Total lack of logic thinking, lack of backbone, lack of proper education and learning the values on life. Minds completely being hacked by the system.

I really couldnt agree more. Its not Thai people its Thailand

So is there a difference?

[Forethat]

1) How can people be so stupid to ruin things for themselves like this when they are in need of funds?

2) What makes them think they can screw people over and still expect to have their trust? Is it a big-person-small-person-thing?

3) Would you expect such behaviour from a 36-year-old?

You're talking about the English, right..?

[torasap]

You're talking about the English, right..?

I'm most certainly talking about human beings in general ;-)

[cardholder]

1) How can people be so stupid to ruin things for themselves like this when they are in need of funds?

2) What makes them think they can screw people over and still expect to have their trust? Is it a big-person-small-person-thing?

3) Would you expect such behaviour from a 36-year-old?

You're talking about the English, right..?

Depends on the people you mix with.

I wouldn't lend 400 Quid to my UK sister-in-law.

[onnut]

Not all "people" are like that, some are some are not. I have loaned money to Thais and got it back and and loaned it to others and not got it back. I think it is to do with there upbringing. It does seem to be a bigger problem here though, and I do not think it is just us that get screwed, Thais screw each other as well so its not a personal thing. I reckon it all boils down to the fact that they do not think of tomorrow as we do. Spend now because Tomorrow may not come!!!!

anyway, if my sister in law had done that to me, she wouldnt be getting anything else off me. Dont let her get away with it either, put pressure on your wife to sort it out.

[Xangsamhua]

I think the probablity of recovering lent money from Thai people is quite low. And I don't say that out of bigotry or bitterness; I like most Thai people and I know there are many self-respecting and honest ones out there.

I also know that retrieving lent property, be it money, books, tools or whatever, in other parts of the world can be difficult, too.

I tend to be forgiving or dispassionate when Thai people behave badly (been here too long). However, having said all that, my general rule is that if I lend money to a Thai person I will not expect to get it back, and I certainly won't press the issue. One or two subtle reminders and then admit defeat. It's certainly not wise to make an issue of it with the borrower.

Re the OP's situation. I don't think I'd make a show of principle. That could be deeply offensive, even when the borrower is quite blatantly in the wrong. Just make excuses for not being able to lend any more. Even a pretty transparent lie could be a good face-saver. Maybe say you've just invested heaps and have no liquidity. (You might ask if she could manage to get you a loan.)

[Forethat]

You're talking about the English, right..?

I'm most certainly talking about human beings in general ;-)

From a more serious point of view; I think small scale issues like this is a matter of lack of education. I have pointed this out in another thread: I'm not too confident there was an initial intention to scam you - the money was sitting there and all of a sudden they'd spent some of it. Maybe there's even a true intention to pay you back (it'll be difficult to do it, though).

I am not too sure the educational bit is the root cause when the same type of behavior operates on a bigger scale; I have spent time with people who are top executives in banks, and they behave in exactly the same way under certain conditions. The only difference appears to be the amounts. For the average Thai farmer it's the kids’ future education spent at the local bars, in the case of the bank executive it's a couple of hundred million Baht of the banks money. The key appears to be the opportunity, so the lesson to learn is to NEVER present an opportunity. This becomes extremely important when there's a personal relationship at stake - make sure you never present an opportunity by lending money or buying something in someone else’s name.

I for one try to always think the best of every Thai - contrary to many others who thinks the worst - but I also make sure I never present an opportunity; this also assures that I can maintain my relationships, both private and business wise. In a weird way, I get the impression many Thais realise I am actually trying to protect our relationship, and for this I gain in respect.

But I dont envy you the situation, after all, this is family.

[cardholder]

You're talking about the English, right..?

I'm most certainly talking about human beings in general ;-)

From a more serious point of view; I think small scale issues like this is a matter of lack of education. I have pointed this out in another thread: I'm not too confident there was an initial intention to scam you - the money was sitting there and all of a sudden they'd spent some of it. Maybe there's even a true intention to pay you back (it'll be difficult to do it, though).

I am not too sure the educational bit is the root cause when the same type of behavior operates on a bigger scale; I have spent time with people who are top executives in banks, and they behave in exactly the same way under certain conditions. The only difference appears to be the amounts. For the average Thai farmer it's the kids' future education spent at the local bars, in the case of the bank executive it's a couple of hundred million Baht of the banks money. The key appears to be the opportunity, so the lesson to learn is to NEVER present an opportunity. This becomes extremely important when there's a personal relationship at stake - make sure you never present an opportunity by lending money or buying something in someone else's name.

I for one try to always think the best of every Thai - contrary to many others who thinks the worst - but I also make sure I never present an opportunity; this also assures that I can maintain my relationships, both private and business wise. In a weird way, I get the impression many Thais realise I am actually trying to protect our relationship, and for this I gain in respect.

But I dont envy you the situation, after all, this is family.

In general, I agree. But some in some cultures this sort of action is more prevalent,

[GooEng]

I think the probablity of recovering lent money from Thai people is quite low. And I don't say that out of bigotry or bitterness; I like most Thai people and I know there are many self-respecting and honest ones out there.

I also know that retrieving lent property, be it money, books, tools or whatever, in other parts of the world can be difficult, too.

I tend to be forgiving or dispassionate when Thai people behave badly (been here too long). However, having said all that, my general rule is that if I lend money to a Thai person I will not expect to get it back, and I certainly won't press the issue. One or two subtle reminders and then admit defeat. It's certainly not wise to make an issue of it with the borrower.

Re the OP's situation. I don't think I'd make a show of principle. That could be deeply offensive, even when the borrower is quite blatantly in the wrong. Just make excuses for not being able to lend any more. Even a pretty transparent lie could be a good face-saver. Maybe say you've just invested heaps and have no liquidity. (You might ask if she could manage to get you a loan.)

i agree with the above on all counts. the thinly veiled lie justifying the inability to lend anything further is the way to go, and will definitely get the message across to the SIL.

[Berkshire]

You're talking about the English, right..?

I'm most certainly talking about human beings in general ;-)

Then I stand corrected.

To cdnvic, appreciate much your discretion.

[doggie888888]

You may consider yourself the golden goose but others might just view you as the cow that requires milking.

And what happens to cows that don't or can't produce milk anymore?

[Sigmond]

Thai logic-you farang, you rich, you pay

[richieudon]

Just look at it as a lesson learned, write it off and be thankful is wasn't a larger sum.

At least you have a good reason to not lend ANYONE any money ever again, could be a cheap get-out in the long run.

I lent my Thai sister-in-law 20,000 baht a couple of years ago.

I didn't see her for a good few months and thought to myself at least no-one can ask me for a loan ever again because I can always plead I'm out of pocket.

She came around our house out of the blue about 10 months later with the 20,000 and a kop khun ka.

These days I plead poverty to everyone. The Thai way is to show off a bit.

I know many Thais that have new cars, financed. No tax, no insurance and if you get in their car the petrol gauge is always on the red. They need the car for show, it's their culture...

[torasap]

I think the probablity of recovering lent money from Thai people is quite low. And I don't say that out of bigotry or bitterness; I like most Thai people and I know there are many self-respecting and honest ones out there.

I also know that retrieving lent property, be it money, books, tools or whatever, in other parts of the world can be difficult, too.

I tend to be forgiving or dispassionate when Thai people behave badly (been here too long). However, having said all that, my general rule is that if I lend money to a Thai person I will not expect to get it back, and I certainly won't press the issue. One or two subtle reminders and then admit defeat. It's certainly not wise to make an issue of it with the borrower.

Re the OP's situation. I don't think I'd make a show of principle. That could be deeply offensive, even when the borrower is quite blatantly in the wrong. Just make excuses for not being able to lend any more. Even a pretty transparent lie could be a good face-saver. Maybe say you've just invested heaps and have no liquidity. (You might ask if she could manage to get you a loan.)

i agree with the above on all counts. the thinly veiled lie justifying the inability to lend anything further is the way to go, and will definitely get the message across to the SIL.

What does SIL mean?

[cardholder]

You're talking about the English, right..?

I'm most certainly talking about human beings in general ;-)

Then I stand corrected.

To cdnvic, appreciate much your discretion.

I agree, well moderated - this topic is worthy of discussion and whilst it will focus on some of the cultural aspects of Thais, it need not be a Thai-bashing thread. I think we alll know of examples where people (often Thais ) if they have 100 baht they spend 100 Baht, if they have 20,000 Baht they spend 20,000 Baht.

[GooEng]

I think the probablity of recovering lent money from Thai people is quite low. And I don't say that out of bigotry or bitterness; I like most Thai people and I know there are many self-respecting and honest ones out there.

I also know that retrieving lent property, be it money, books, tools or whatever, in other parts of the world can be difficult, too.

I tend to be forgiving or dispassionate when Thai people behave badly (been here too long). However, having said all that, my general rule is that if I lend money to a Thai person I will not expect to get it back, and I certainly won't press the issue. One or two subtle reminders and then admit defeat. It's certainly not wise to make an issue of it with the borrower.

Re the OP's situation. I don't think I'd make a show of principle. That could be deeply offensive, even when the borrower is quite blatantly in the wrong. Just make excuses for not being able to lend any more. Even a pretty transparent lie could be a good face-saver. Maybe say you've just invested heaps and have no liquidity. (You might ask if she could manage to get you a loan.)

i agree with the above on all counts. the thinly veiled lie justifying the inability to lend anything further is the way to go, and will definitely get the message across to the SIL.

What does SIL mean?

sister in law

[Jingthing]

The OP says she asked to return it at one point and it was declined due to the transfer fees. Do you think she really would have done the transfer then?

[Tonto21]

Hi torasap. I find this an interesting topic, sure it’s been done over and over again on TV, but I feel there more than the simple questions raised here, For me what really leaps out the story is the OP’s lack of understanding of all things Thai, Thai culture, family and that word again “face” this is not a criticism, just an observation. I don’t pretend to be highly knowledgeable on the workings of the Thai mind, but you pick up enough to not put both feet in your mouth now and then, and stay sane!

OK, my opinion, for what it’s worth. First, stop giving your wife grief over this, she is in the middle! She is under pressure from her sister (read up on Thai families) and you, (her husband, who view the whole thing thought farang eyes) you have already said you have learned a lesson about lending the money……….Good, then let it go. As far as your relationship go’s, it’s quite possible your putting your marriage at risk!

Try and swallow down the urge to go farang on this issue, you will lose mate! As said, forget the 20,000 Baht…..It’s gone, just forget it, for your wife’s sake….and never mention it again. As for the new loan the SIL wants, try it the Thai way, (It’s a game) Let her know you will think about it, have a look at the finances and so on, Finally let her know via your wife, (whom, you should also keep in the dark about the whooper your telling) that you would love to help, but just don’t have the money to lend her, Everybody’s happy………’ish, especially your wife who get to save her face.

I don’t know or would presume to know your wife’s background, so, please accept this advice in the spirit its intended; don’t tell your wife or her family every detail of your finances, you wife does not need to know how much you have or what property you own, only that you are providing for her. Yes I know! “We are as one, in love,we have no secrets ” yarda yarda yar and so on! Trust me on this! You are creating pressure on your wife to provide for her real family!

To answer your questions

1) How can people be so stupid to ruin things for themselves like this when they are in need of funds? Answer: A lot of Thai live on a day to day basis, “a bird in the hand” sort of thing.

2) What makes them think they can screw people over and still expect to have their trust? Is it a big- person-small-person-thing? Answer: No, it’s a “you have I want” sort of thing and trust! They don’t care about your trust.

3) Would you expect such behavior from a 36-year-old? Answer: This is a trick question…. Yes I would, anywhere in the world, buy especially in Thailand.

I am not advocating that you should embrace the Thai way of thinking or doing thing, but as your married to a Thai you should at least try and have a basic understanding of what makes them tick……It’s called self preservation and it will keep you sane. One last thing, stop dripping about the money, if this is all you ever hand over to the family…………….. You’ve got off light!

[onnut]

Hi torasap. I find this an interesting topic, sure it's been done over and over again on TV, but I feel there more than the simple questions raised here, For me what really leaps out the story is the OP's lack of understanding of all things Thai, Thai culture, family and that word again "face" this is not a criticism, just an observation. I don't pretend to be highly knowledgeable on the workings of the Thai mind, but you pick up enough to not put both feet in your mouth now and then, and stay sane!

OK, my opinion, for what it's worth. First, stop giving your wife grief over this, she is in the middle! She is under pressure from her sister (read up on Thai families) and you, (her husband, who view the whole thing thought farang eyes) you have already said you have learned a lesson about lending the money……….Good, then let it go. As far as your relationship go's, it's quite possible your putting your marriage at risk!

Try and swallow down the urge to go farang on this issue, you will lose mate! As said, forget the 20,000 Baht…..It's gone, just forget it, for your wife's sake….and never mention it again. As for the new loan the SIL wants, try it the Thai way, (It's a game) Let her know you will think about it, have a look at the finances and so on, Finally let her know via your wife, (whom, you should also keep in the dark about the whooper your telling) that you would love to help, but just don't have the money to lend her, Everybody's happy………'ish, especially your wife who get to save her face.

I don't know or would presume to know your wife's background, so, please accept this advice in the spirit its intended; don't tell your wife or her family every detail of your finances, you wife does not need to know how much you have or what property you own, only that you are providing for her. Yes I know! "We are as one, in love,we have no secrets " yarda yarda yar and so on! Trust me on this! You are creating pressure on your wife to provide for her real family!

To answer your questions

1) How can people be so stupid to ruin things for themselves like this when they are in need of funds? Answer: A lot of Thai live on a day to day basis, "a bird in the hand" sort of thing.

2) What makes them think they can screw people over and still expect to have their trust? Is it a big- person-small-person-thing? Answer: No, it's a "you have I want" sort of thing and trust! They don't care about your trust.

3) Would you expect such behavior from a 36-year-old? Answer: This is a trick question…. Yes I would, anywhere in the world, buy especially in Thailand.

I am not advocating that you should embrace the Thai way of thinking or doing thing, but as your married to a Thai you should at least try and have a basic understanding of what makes them tick……It's called self preservation and it will keep you sane. One last thing, stop dripping about the money, if this is all you ever hand over to the family…………….. You've got off light!

+ 1 green. this is a really good answer.

[richard_smith237]

A lot of people in Thailand simply feel or consider nothing today for what might happen tomorrow. The concept of consequence is non existent in most and in those whom this concept does reside they are considered to 'worry too much', 'think too much', 'be too detailed' etc....

When attention is drawn to the lack of concept for consequence or the actual lack of any consequence we are often given the 'Thai way / Thai Culture' excuse, which in my experience is only ever used to lazily pass-off the unexplainable in negative circumstances.

This is not bashing Thai's.... I have many Thai friends and when I have discussed this with them the other side of the coin is that people do not wish to make further trouble. i.e. there is a lack of conflict ideal, which is lovely and paradoxically part of the reasons many of us may be here. It is also something I interpret as laziness in those tasked with taking responsibility.

IMO: The SIL (Sister in Law) borrowed the B20,000 with honest intention, but only thinking for today she ended up consuming it with out any regard, thought or concept of what may happen (consequence).

I fully agree with the Op not to give her anything more. BUT - Insist on a Pay back and when or if she can provide the B20,000, give it back as a loan, until then the 'ace' as the Op terms it can remain in play.

[ilyelol]

you gave money away for a coffee shop, thats your fault.

Everyone knows coffee shops are the worse idea in the world, ESPECIALLY in thailand

[torasap]

you gave money away for a coffee shop, thats your fault.

Everyone knows coffee shops are the worse idea in the world, ESPECIALLY in thailand

It would be more like a stand, actually. But how come it's bad business in Thailand? Hot country, everyone needs to drink...