Foreigners Teaching Without Work Permits

[chownah]

I would like to know people's estimates of what percent of the foreigners teaching in Thailand are doing so without a work permit.

[Ijustwannateach]

In language centers? Not so many, because it appears the rules are different for them (or at least they pay enough bribes or something to get around them). Most folks who spend a long time in the alphabet soup (ECC, etc.) get a work permit eventually.

In schools? Very few. They either never have their act together, or are funding you in an illegal fashion, can't be a***ed, don't know what to do, don't care, or don't have enough influence/students/classrooms to qualify.

This was the #1 reason I changed schools so often the first couple of years I was here. Every school *promised* a work permit; no one delivered. It almost drove me out of Thailand; if I hadn't found a place with the right stuff I would have left. And without being all that special, I'm on the more-well-qualified side of the normal teaching population here (proper degree in related field, teaching experience, references, etc.), as far as I've been able to tell. It really, really, really shouldn't be that hard.

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

In language centers?  Not so many, because it appears the rules are different for them (or at least they pay enough bribes or something to get around them).  Most folks who spend a long time in the alphabet soup (ECC, etc.) get a work permit eventually.

Actually I'd say the opposite more teachers work for language schools without a WP than anywhere else.....'cos of the classroom to work permit rule and also 'cos the majority of their work is sending the teachers out (and often even if they have a WP they won't be covered).

You'll find a lot of 'proper' schools go through 'agencies' (language schools) to get a teacher (for various reasons) it's then basically down to the employer (not the school where they're actually working) to get them a WP...which often doesn't happen as they want the teachers 'on site' to be legit, not the ones they send out.

[kenkannif]

I'd say 50% plus!

[Ijustwannateach]

You know better than me!

[ilyushin]

Probably 90% at language schools and the others (10%) work for universities.Estimated guess based on demographics of a foreign nationals teaching English in the Kingdom. Most don't stay long enough to process a permit or for the schools to make the investment.

Edited August 15, 2005 by ilyushin

[kenkannif]

You know better than me!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just me opinion But yeah I probably am right

[kenkannif]

Also a lot of part-time teachers probably won't have WPs!

[paulfr]

If this percentage is so high, one would think there are a lot of Farangs being deported for working without a WP.

Does anyone know of someone who was working at a legit school and actually was forced to leave the country ??

If not, that would say the WP is meaningless unless Govt policy changes some day.

In that case the WP is mearly deportation insurance.

[kenkannif]

I've only heard of one verifiable case in 5 years here. And no one I personally know has got in to trouble (and that's a fair few people). Still it is illegal though, but a blind eye seems to be generally turned.

[PeaceBlondie]

Just a wild guess - which would be far more accurate than an official govt. statistic - well over half the farang EFL teachers work without a WP.

I agree with paulfr that you hardly ever hear of anybody being DEPORTED simply because they didn't have a WP. More likely, they are deported for working without a visa that permits work, such as a non-immigrant B.

Nonetheless, it does matter. Bpen rai. I don't enjoy being treated like a Burmese or a 'Mexican wetback.' I even have a real, third-rate degree.

[kenkannif]

I agree with paulfr that you hardly ever hear of anybody being DEPORTED simply because they didn't have a WP.  More likely, they are deported for working without a visa that permits work, such as a non-immigrant B.

Same difference IMO. A Non-imm B without a WP isn't much different from a tourist Visa.

But the case I heard of was for no work permit, I've not heard of anyone being done for being on th wrong Visa per se.

[sanook2me]

The work permit problem always an ugly one... do schools invest their time and money on a farang who will let them down or do they test you over a period of months to see if you're reliable. I know what I would do.

I think reliability is the major issue with farangs at the lower end of teaching.

By lower end I mean language schools and primary schools. The upper end are Universities, International or Private schools.

The above is not meant to be selective on salary but a reflection on the quality, reliability and the education of farangs who work at the various places.

Why should a language centre start the WP process when they know already that Mr. British is a raving piss'ead who will let them down while not possesing the correct qualifications.

I arrived in LoS without a degree but I invested my time and money into a TEFL course most unreliable teachers haven't invested their money into one because they never have any as they spend it all and saving is incomprehensible to them.

These are the teachers that waste every body’s time (I'm now getting to the point of the question).

I think over 90% of teachers at language centres and government schools work without a permit as they fall into the above category. The alcoholic waster who can't do anything but blame other people for their own misfortune. end of rant, give me a break i'm suffering a hangover

[chownah]

................

Why should a language centre start the WP process when they know already that Mr. British is a raving piss'ead who will let them down while not possesing the correct qualifications.

............

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that the answer to this is obvious....they should provide the WP by before the teacher begins work because the law requires it.

[sanook2me]

Chownah, you're right but how many teachers have the correct paperwork for the companies to obtain a WP?

Plus the sweat shops can't keep a good teacher for very long and the lazy, drunken teachy types normally *uck up quite soon after starting work. If you were a director of a school how long would it take you to realise even starting the WP for most teachers is a waste, i think they hold back until its obvious that the teacher suits the job and job suits the teacher.

I think the Thais get a bum deal out of all this TEFL teaching, there are too many shady people who fall into teaching. All teachers should hold at least a TEFL cert before entering a classroom.

[mbkudu]

If this percentage is so high, one would think there are a lot of Farangs being deported for working without a WP.

I don't think so. I worked full time in Bangkok from 1991-1999 (seven days a week for my last two years) and never once felt any pressure from anybody working without a WP. I had a 'married to a Thai visa' . I never once met anyone who knew anyone who was an associate of anyone who ever came close to being deported for teaching without a WP. Most of the teachers I had contact with didn't have WPs because we all did the same type of work: roaving private work. Would I recommend it now? No. I doubt there is any more risk of deportation now than then, but it is a precarious existence that is not good if you're thinking about a family and children in Thailand down the road. The second phase of my teaching life in Thailand, coming soon, will be legal beagle, degree, WP, license, blah, blah.

The old way was fine when I was in my 20s and early thirties, but I'm nearly 40 now and need stability. Up to U.

Edited August 21, 2005 by mbkudu

[Rumpole]

I think the Thais get a bum deal out of all this TEFL teaching, there are too many shady people who fall into teaching.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pay peanuts and you get monkeys. In my view, the Thais get PRECISELY the kind of "teachers" they deserve.

Edited August 21, 2005 by Rumpole

[Ijustwannateach]

In terms of who's responsible for the horrible current situation of very few work permits, the ball is firmly in the Thai court. There's nothing we farang (let us be as qualified as you care to stipulate) can do to make it less impossible and frustrating. It's one of the many occasions where we outsiders see how government makes it impossible to do business even for relatively large, market-popular businesses here without paying huge unnecessary bribes to various agencies just to have people do their jobs, since the tangle of rules makes it basically impossible for any normal business to get the paperwork by the rules.

AND it means that the few reasonable checks on whether someone SHOULD have a work permit get side-stepped, because the bribe becomes more important than the overbearing and entangled regulations.

"Steven"

[kenkannif]

Plus the sweat shops can't keep a good teacher for very long and the lazy, drunken teachy types normally *uck up quite soon after starting work. If you were a director of a school how long would it take you to realise even starting the WP for most teachers is a waste, i think they hold back until its obvious that the teacher suits the job and job suits the teacher.

This may partly be the reason, but IMO and IME it's down to the classroom to work permit rule. As most language schools also send their staff out to schools, business and sometimes even homes to teach, they rarely have enough classrooms on site to get all their teachers a WP. So they employ 100 odd teachers, but only have 30 odd classrooms (I know of no school that's built 100 classrooms to get the right amount of WPs and then only used some of them) so that means they're only going to get 30 work permits (generally).

This is the main problem IMO!

[Neeranam]

I would like to know people's estimates of what percent of the foreigners teaching in Thailand are doing so without a work permit.

IMHO&E, I'd say 60%.

So, nobody knows anyone who has been deported for teaching without a WP?

So do we generally agree that working as a teacher without a WP is ok?

[Khutan]

<snip>So, nobody knows anyone who has been deported for teaching without a WP? <snip>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes I know two people actually.

What makes me laugh, and Ken, you will laugh at this guy as well, what does he have 200 - 300 Teachers and 4 work permits in the entire company.

BTW Kenm when are we going to have a beer ?

[kenkannif]

Finally moved offices mate (only like a month late), so soon!