One Lifetime Or Many?

[camerata]

I keep coming across the statement that enlightenment in the Theravada tradition takes many lifetimes, whereas in the Mahayana tradition it can take only one. Does anyone know where this notion comes from? I mean, if a Tibetan monk and a Thai monk both become enlightened, how would anyone know whether they did or didn't practise dhamma in a previous lifetime?

[sabaijai]

Camerata, I think it depends on what you mean by 'enlightenment'. If you mean full arahantship, I thought that in the Mahayana tradition the bodhisattva vow meant you were supposed to forgo that state until all beings were ready to attain nirvana, which means millions of lifetimes!

Buddha's first five followers attained enlightenment immediately upon hearing him teach dhamma.

Somewhere in the Pali canon, the Buddha is quoted as saying it could take "seven minutes, seven days, seven weeks or seven lifetimes" (one of those statements at odds with his refusal to comment on the concept of reincarnation), which indicates it is possible to attain arahantship in one lifetime within the Theravada tradition.

[Mr. Farang]

One of the paradoxes of Buddhist thought is the subject of reincarnation ot "lifetimes". In my personal path of Theravada Buddhism studies, every desire or attachment is a "rebirth" and each of these kamma (birth-of-desire, contact, conditioning and conditioned response, decay and death of desire) lifecycles is a rebirth experience.

Enlightenment is achieved, not based on time or space, but on the individuals ability to cease attachment - ending our individual kammic cycle - which is achieved by following, according to the Theravada schools, the Eight Fold Path to End Suffering.

I posted information on the Eight Fold Path to a different post about "Anger" today. The same concepts apply, as enlightenment is "the end of suffering" which is the end result of a successful journey thought the Eight Fold Path.

BTW: This is a very difficult journey for most people, I doubt very much there are many beings who can or have obtained this state of mind in 7 minutes, 7 days, or 7 lifetimes. When a being embarks upon a serious quest of following the Eight Fold Path to become a "non-being" so to speak, it is much like taking a computer network full of information and working on a process to purify the system of most if it's information - and the system-network (itself) does not want to be purified because it likes all the graphics, audio files and other programming!

Just think how hard it would be, if someone took up a task to purify the Internet, so that Google searches were "pure" (from an abstract view, as we have not defined "pure" in this thread and I hesitate to do so from the Google perspective). To "purify" the Internet would be impossible. However, to "purify" our indivisual minds might be possible - with serious Right Effort (and the rest of the Eight Fold Path).

[chownah]

Isn't the question of whether we even have many lifetimes at all one of those things that the Buddha didn't discuss because they really had no bearing on attaining progress or enlightenment or whatever so since it has no bearing there is no reason to discuss?

I have a hard time thinking about being reborn (meaning the reincarnation type of rebirth) so I mostly just don't...but...for those who do believe in this relative to Buddhist doctrine I have a question. If one believes that it takes many lifetimes to achieve enlightenment or whatever isn't it true that all of us have already lived many lives so it has taken many lives just to get where we are...much less enlightenment or whatever. Another question: Have we all lived approximately the same number of lives? Was there one day when we all were living our first lives together? I guess this is sort of like the big bang theory only applied to past lives. I'm not wanting to argue with anyone about this...I just never thought of it before and I'm wondering what peoples ideas are on this.

[Mr. Farang]

The Buddha taught that discussions of a metaphysical nature, like "if there is life after physical death," are not useful, as there is so much (mental) work to be done in this lifetime along the Eight Fold Path.

However, the Buddha also taught that kammic "rebirth" occurs moment-to-moment, with atttachment to each new desire, and his students should focus on that "rebirth".

This discussion gets to the heart of Theravada Buddhism and is useful.

My experience has been that many have conditioned the teaching of the Buddha to focus on the non-taught metaphysical transformations because working on the kammic transformations in this lifetime is really very hard work (tedious and slow)!

Human nature is to take the "faster" path when offered, hence, in my opinion, an interest in the metaphysical and physical rebirth (that the Buddha did not teach) v. the very complex and difficult subject of kammic rebirth (that the Buddha did teach).

Please keep in mind that these are Theravada concepts and I mean no disrespect to other schools to thought who may subscribe to different concepts -also keeping in mind that Thai Buddhism is based on Theravada concepts and practice, as the Thai Sangha (Monks) are Theravada Buddhists.

Edited August 22, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[DrBooze]

Have we all lived approximately the same number of lives?  Was there one day when we all were living our first lives together?  I guess this is sort of like the big bang theory only applied to past lives.  I'm not wanting to argue with anyone about this...I just never thought of it before and I'm wondering what peoples ideas are on this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hey, I'm no expert on this but I've been listening to some talks on the internet from Western monks of the Mahayana tradition. From what I can gather, there was no first day. Our consciousness goes back forever. It seems strange - but the more i think about it, it seems less strange than the idea of a big bang or some other kind of first cause. I could relate more to this idea when I started to think about fractals - those pictures you can keep on magnifying that just get more complex and bring forth more patterns as you look deeper. But, even if there was a starting line we wouldn't have lived the same amount of lives because some creatures live longer than others. So, I guess, if you kept coming back as an elephant you'd have lived less lives than someone who consistantly came back as a moth. I don't know what that is in dog years.

That's how I saw it but I'm still new to all this stuff. It's still pretty confusing. Maybe, I'll stick to the 8-fold path from now on.

[camerata]

Camerata, I think it depends on what you mean by 'enlightenment'. If you mean full arahantship, I thought that in the Mahayana tradition the bodhisattva vow meant you were supposed to forgo that state until all beings were ready to attain nirvana, which means millions of lifetimes!

Yes, I can't remember where I first came across this notion of Mahayana enlightenment being quicker, but John Blofeld seems to subscribe to the same idea. In his book on Tibetan Buddhism he mentions several times that both Tibetan Tantra and Zen have a "Short Path" that is of great interest to those Westerners who have a hard time believing in rebirth.

I'm beginning to think this idea became widespread simply because there is a lot of Zen literature available describing enlightenment experiences and there are a lot of very visible Tibetan lamas around. Perhaps it's a kind of urban myth that spread because Theravadin arahants tend to shun the limelight.

[Abandon]

Camerata, I think it depends on what you mean by 'enlightenment'. If you mean full arahantship, I thought that in the Mahayana tradition the bodhisattva vow meant you were supposed to forgo that state until all beings were ready to attain nirvana, which means millions of lifetimes!

Buddha's first five followers attained enlightenment immediately upon hearing him teach dhamma.

The comparison is to a poisonous weed - the theravadan avoids it, the mahayana is not afraid of it, and the Vajrayana (diamond path) uses it as medicine. Thus the 'greater paths' are 'faster'. But like Sabaijai said - if you take the Bodhisattva vow you must keep coming back to spread Dhamma and not accept full final enlightnement until all beings are enlightened.

Even more odd is the Lotus sutra and the analogy of the burning house. There are three chariots outside, of three levels of 'greatness'. They are there to tempt the person in the burning house to go outside. These are the 3 vehicals (hina, maha and vajra) but in reality all, the sutta says, are only to get the person out of the house, and in reality there are no different vehicles. This is the central message fo the Lotus sutra, which is generally considered the 'highest' of the mahayana sutras.

IN REALITY: because the practice is difficult, many, especially Sri Lankan traditions say it will take 1000s of lifetimes. In the Theravada suttas however, virtually all the people attained enlightenment there and then. Somehow we assume that they were more spiritually advanced than we are now.

Therefore I feel that this view of the path being many lifetimes, must have arisen at the time of the ch'an, Zen and tibetan masters too - and they derided this view telling people that they can practice for enlightenment here and now.

In the Theravada suttas the only reference to a path of many lifetimes is the path for those who have vowed to become a Buddha, or a senior disciple of the Buddha, or a monk who has fallen into the He11 realms. Otherwise enlightenment is always here and now, and attainable

[sabaijai]

Camerata, I think it depends on what you mean by 'enlightenment'. If you mean full arahantship, I thought that in the Mahayana tradition the bodhisattva vow meant you were supposed to forgo that state until all beings were ready to attain nirvana, which means millions of lifetimes!

Buddha's first five followers attained enlightenment immediately upon hearing him teach dhamma.

The comparison is to a poisonous weed - the theravadan avoids it, the mahayana is not afraid of it, and the Vajrayana (diamond path) uses it as medicine. Thus the 'greater paths' are 'faster'. But like Sabaijai said - if you take the Bodhisattva vow you must keep coming back to spread Dhamma and not accept full final enlightnement until all beings are enlightened.

Even more odd is the Lotus sutra and the analogy of the burning house. There are three chariots outside, of three levels of 'greatness'. They are there to tempt the person in the burning house to go outside. These are the 3 vehicals (hina, maha and vajra) but in reality all, the sutta says, are only to get the person out of the house, and in reality there are no different vehicles. This is the central message fo the Lotus sutra, which is generally considered the 'highest' of the mahayana sutras.

IN REALITY: because the practice is difficult, many, especially Sri Lankan traditions say it will take 1000s of lifetimes. In the Theravada suttas however, virtually all the people attained enlightenment there and then. Somehow we assume that they were more spiritually advanced than we are now.

Therefore I feel that this view of the path being many lifetimes, must have arisen at the time of the ch'an, Zen and tibetan masters too - and they derided this view telling people that they can practice for enlightenment here and now.

In the Theravada suttas the only reference to a path of many lifetimes is the path for those who have vowed to become a Buddha, or a senior disciple of the Buddha, or a monk who has fallen into the He11 realms. Otherwise enlightenment is always here and now, and attainable

Good one, Pandit.

I'm reminded again of the old Kenneth Patchen quote, "Greater vehicle, lesser vehicle, all vehicles will be towed at owner's expense."

[Mr. Farang]

I'm reminded again of the old Kenneth Patchen quote, "Greater vehicle, lesser vehicle, all vehicles will be towed at owner's expense."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Excellent Quote by Kenneth Patachen! Thanks.

There are many paths up the great mountain. The most important thing is to be on one of the paths up the great mountain - the path that is right for you!!

[ThaiPauly]

Isn't the question of whether we even have many lifetimes at all one of those things that the Buddha didn't discuss because they really had no bearing on attaining progress or enlightenment or whatever so since it has no bearing there is no reason to discuss?

I have a hard time thinking about being reborn (meaning the reincarnation type of rebirth) so I mostly just don't...but...for those who do believe in this relative to Buddhist doctrine I have a question.  If one believes that it takes many lifetimes to achieve enlightenment or whatever isn't it true that all of us have already lived many lives so it has taken many lives just to get where we are...much less enlightenment or whatever.  Another question: Have we all lived approximately the same number of lives?  Was there one day when we all were living our first lives together?  I guess this is sort of like the big bang theory only applied to past lives.  I'm not wanting to argue with anyone about this...I just never thought of it before and I'm wondering what peoples ideas are on this.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This is a very good post Chownah. I have struggled with the concept of re-birth and have still not come to any conclusions.

When I was a Christian, it was easy. You die, you go to heaven or h#ll, now I am a Bhuddist the situation is a lot more complex, maybee I will find my own answer as I study more about the religion, as nobody can answer this question with any certainty.

thank you for the post.

[AyJ]

I keep coming across the statement that enlightenment in the Theravada tradition takes many lifetimes, whereas in the Mahayana tradition it can take only one. Does anyone know where this notion comes from? I mean, if a Tibetan monk and a Thai monk both become enlightened, how would anyone know whether they did or didn't practise dhamma in a previous lifetime?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think that achieving enlightenment should not be of such great importance.

Follow your true heart. That is the path to follow.

[Abandon]

If I followed my heart, I would be chasing the nymph in the Yoga Centre ....

[Mr. Farang]

If I followed my heart, I would be chasing the nymph in the Yoga Centre ....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Then that is what you should do if you are not married and she is not married.

Follow your "kamma" and, while you are at it, keep your "dhamma eye" on your nama-rupa as you..... chase the nymph in the Yoga Centre.

Use the Force, Luke...... :-)

Yodda.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Mr. Farang]

I think that achieving enlightenment should not be of such great importance.

Follow your true heart.  That is the path to follow.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Absolutely the "right view" (in my opinion) ...... all my Theravada teachers have said "just practice" moment-to-moment. None were interested in discussing such topics as '"enlightenment" as this is an "attachment".... attachment to wanting something... that something is "enlightenment"... desire... a defilement.

Simply follow the Eight Fold Path, based on your current "kamma"...... your situation in context to the rest of the "kamma matrix".... .. enlightenment will only come to those who are non-self, without attachment, without clinging, and the desire for enlightenment is a defilement. It is unskillful to desire. Just practice........

[DeDanan]

Hi All,

Why complicate a simple message, If you want to attain/enter Nibanna follow the Eight Fold Path. Even by any logic you can see if you can truly follow it will lead to happiness.

BUT… some of us chose not to follow this path, we prefer to keep our attachments to family etc’ so maybe it will take us many lifetimes, before we can turn our back on what we all hold dear…. I personally think, over a number of lifetimes I will do the FAMILY THING / ATTACHMENT THING, the NON ATTACHMENT THING, and variations of the above.

Now in this lifetime I am in the attachment phase, while I am aware this will not lead to eternal happiness, I am not prepared to give it up, this is where I am right now!

Those of you who have progressed beyond this stage may think I am strange that I do not grasp the obvious. But for me I am now where I should be!

This for me is the true meaning of many lifetimes!

I have found a certain amount of happiness in understanding where I am in the cycle and not trying to force myself into a different position (state)!

Be Aware (of your surroundings and your self)

Take care,

DeDanan.

[Mr. Farang]

Hi All,

Why complicate a simple message, If you want to attain/enter Nibanna follow the Eight Fold Path. Even by any logic you can see if you can truly follow it will lead to happiness.

BUT… some of us chose not to follow this path, we prefer to keep our attachments to family etc’ so  maybe it will take us many lifetimes, before we can turn our back on what we all hold dear…. I personally think, over a number of lifetimes I will do the FAMILY THING / ATTACHMENT THING, the NON ATTACHMENT THING, and variations of the above.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You can still follow the Eight Fold Path and have a family, a job, a career, etc. You do not have to be a Monk to follow the Eight Fold Path:

Right View - learn to understand that there is kamma, there is dharmma and that from learning to see these for yourself, you will know and respect the mind of the Buddha. The Right View is that anyone can practice the Eight Fold Path and the Path is very, very simple.

Right Speech - try to speak honestly and gently at all times. Try not to use harsh speech or profanity.

Right Intention - consider and reflect upon what you intend to do and the cause and efffect each action might have based on good or bad intention to yourself and others.

Right Action - do not take life when you have choice, follow the middle way, do not harm others if you can.

Right Livelihood - do not take up work that harms others.

Right Effort - use energy to make merit, try to practice meditation, try hard to do good things. Try hard not to do bad things.

Right Mindfulness - learn to see the body and the mind and to know there is 'no self' Be mindful of your feelings (and the feelings of others) when they arise, when they fall, when they rise again. Be mindful of your mental objects, the objects of the mind and how the effect the mind and body. Be mindful of kamma - cause and effect - and the matrix of kamma we know as "the world"

Right Concentration - try to focus on objects of dhamma. The mind, the body, the feelings, how each rises, falls, and passes away.

---------------

To repeat for emphasis: The Right View is that anyone can practice the Eight Fold Path and the Path is very, very simple. Without the Eight Fold Path, there is no Buddhist Path. The one who practices Buddhism, follows the teaching of the Buddha, and the Buddha taught a very simple thing - something every being can follow, if they wish to be happier. There is nothing "complicated in the message" it is only complicated and/or difficult to those who do not wish to follow, who do not have the Right View.

Theravada Buddhism is Folllowing the Eight Fold Path. It is that simple.

PS: Just look at how much suffering exists here on Thai Visa. So many people suffering, angry, hostile, profane, aggressive, not mindful of others...... the "worldly condition"... How much more simple can the Dharmma be?

Be Aware (of your surroundings and your self)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A fish in the lake can be aware of their surroundings, but the fish thinks the entire world is "water" and "life in the water". The fish does not know of sky, of land, of humans, of buildings. The fish knows what the fish knows.

It is not enough to be aware of your surroundings. That is why there is the Eight Fold Path = these are the Tools provided by the Buddha for all mankind - a free gift.

Edited September 18, 2005 by Mr. Farang

[Mr. Farang]

Now in this lifetime I am in the attachment phase, while I am aware this will not lead to eternal happiness, I am not prepared to give it up, this is where I am right now!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And the Buddha said, about the Eight Fold Path:

"It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. He would go to address the king or the king's minister, saying, 'Sire, you should know that while traveling along a wilderness track I saw an ancient path... I followed it... I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital... complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. Sire, rebuild that city!' The king or king's minister would rebuild the city, so that at a later date the city would become powerful, rich, & well-populated, fully grown & prosperous.

"In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration... I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path.

"Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings."

[chownah]

Hi All,

Why complicate a simple message, If you want to attain/enter Nibanna follow the Eight Fold Path. Even by any logic you can see if you can truly follow it will lead to happiness.

BUT… some of us chose not to follow this path, we prefer to keep our attachments to family etc’ so  maybe it will take us many lifetimes, before we can turn our back on what we all hold dear…. I personally think, over a number of lifetimes I will do the FAMILY THING / ATTACHMENT THING, the NON ATTACHMENT THING, and variations of the above.

Now in this lifetime I am in the attachment phase, while I am aware this will not lead to eternal happiness, I am not prepared to give it up, this is where I am right now!

Those of you who have progressed beyond this stage may think I am strange that I do not grasp the obvious. But for me I am now where I should be!

This for me is the true meaning of many lifetimes!

I have found a certain amount of happiness in understanding where I am in the cycle and not trying to force myself into a different position (state)!

Be Aware (of your surroundings and your self)

Take care,

DeDanan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I can relate to this post....when my mood is good I feel just like this....but....when things aren't going so well it is hard for me to see things this way. If I always felt like this then I probably would never have felt any need for introspection.

[Mr. Farang]

And the Buddha said:

§ 210. Craving & Its Cessation. Now what is the noble truth of the origination of stress? The craving that makes for further becoming -- accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there -- i.e., craving for sensuality, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming.

And where does this craving, when arising, arise? And where, when dwelling, does it dwell? Whatever is endearing & alluring in terms of the world: that is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

And what is endearing & alluring in terms of the world? The eye is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where this craving, when arising, arises. That is where, when dwelling, it dwells.

This is called the noble truth of the origination of stress.

And what is the noble truth of the cessation of stress? The remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of that very craving.

And where, when being abandoned, is this craving abandoned? And where, when ceasing, does it cease? Whatever is endearing & alluring in terms of the world: that is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

And what is endearing & alluring in terms of the world? The eye is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect...

Forms... Sounds... Smells... Tastes... Tactile sensations... Ideas...

Eye-consciousness... Ear-consciousness... Nose-consciousness... Tongue-consciousness... Body-consciousness... Intellect-consciousness...

Eye-contact... Ear-contact... Nose-contact... Tongue-contact... Body-contact... Intellect-contact...

Feeling born of eye-contact... Feeling born of ear-contact... Feeling born of nose-contact... Feeling born of tongue-contact... Feeling born of body-contact... Feeling born of intellect-contact...

Perception of forms... Perception of sounds... Perception of smells... Perception of tastes... Perception of tactile sensations... Perception of ideas...

Intention for forms... Intention for sounds... Intention for smells... Intention for tastes... Intention for tactile sensations... Intention for ideas...

Craving for forms... Craving for sounds... Craving for smells... Craving for tastes... Craving for tactile sensations... Craving for ideas...

Thought directed at forms... Thought directed at sounds... Thought directed at smells... Thought directed at tastes... Thought directed at tactile sensations... Thought directed at ideas...

Evaluation of forms... Evaluation of sounds... Evaluation of smells... Evaluation of tastes... Evaluation of tactile sensations... Evaluation of ideas is endearing & alluring in terms of the world. That is where, when being abandoned, this craving is abandoned. That is where, when ceasing, it ceases.

This is called the noble truth of the cessation of stress.

[cdnvic]

I think that achieving enlightenment should not be of such great importance.

Follow your true heart.  That is the path to follow.

Absolutely the "right view" (in my opinion) ...... all my Theravada teachers have said "just practice" moment-to-moment. None were interested in discussing such topics as '"enlightenment" as this is an "attachment".... attachment to wanting something... that something is "enlightenment"... desire... a defilement.

I totally concur. I once attended a lecture where the speaker summed this up perfectly, suggesting that the last attachment you are freed from prior to attaining enlightenment, is the desire to become enlightened.

cv