The Virtues Of Systems Are Being Overlooked In Thailand

[webfact]

EDITORIAL

The virtues of systems are being overlooked

By The Nation

The main fault with Thai politics and other aspects of our society is that we place too much importance on individuals and not systems and institutions

Is Thailand a confused society where the virtues of systems are concerned? Every institution has bad individuals, but are their flaws being amplified, so much so that we have become a very cynical and unhappy people? Controversies and scandals emerge on a regular basis, and they can happen in any society and institution - in politics, in religions, in bureaucracies, in judicial systems. But why is it that faith seems to be eroding faster here than in most other places around the world?

Granted, most controversies and scandals involving people in high places are caused by the abuse of trust, resulting in a loss of credibility. Some politicians and elected office-holders betray the trust of their voters in making personal gains while in power. Some high-ranking monks and abbots accumulate personal wealth and secretly indulge in their worldly desires while preaching against all those sins. Some senior bureaucrats accept bribes and abuse their power at the same time as they are paid with taxpayers' money.

These people spend a considerable time in their lives and careers building up good reputations. Their standing earns them high stature and the trust of the public. Unfortunately for these greedy people, they do not stop at the benefits they deserve.

But it takes two to tango, or, in this case, to make a society obsessed with anything but real values. Many of us appear to believe in heroes and idols, superficially judging people of high rank by their image, reputation and hearsay about them, rather than the essence of their qualities. That explains why many people blindly trust some politicians and blindly follow some monks. When a scandal emerges about a politician or a senior monk they trust, these followers either refuse to believe it or become badly disillusioned.

Many Thais follow particular monks or certain politicians, rather than believing in the religion or the democracy itself. They have trust in individuals rather than the system. That's why when some scandal happens involving a senior monk, people tend to say the religion is in decline, or when some senior politician is involved in irregularity, people tend to say our democracy is backward.

But it should be the merit of the system, rather than the individual, that counts more. When a scandal erupts, we should focus on maintaining the system rather than preserving or protecting the individuals involved. People come and go, but the system must continue.

When it comes to politics, voters have not learned to avoid re-electing politicians who taint or cause damage to our democracy, whether it involves corruption, political unrest or undemocratic change of government. However, this may be easier said than done, as many voters do not base their decisions on the actual qualities of election candidates. They tend to vote for people who pay them, people who support their community financially, and people described by their local administrators or community leaders as good (in most cases those supportive administrators and leaders are paid canvassers for the politicians).

This kind of patron-client relationship still has an important role in many aspects of the country's life, and particularly in politics. It makes it easy for politicians to buy their way into power and get re-elected again and again as long as they can still pay. This continues until they are defeated by someone who can afford to pay more.

Voters in the urban areas, like their counterparts in developed countries, tend to elect in accordance with the latest performance of candidates and the current situation of those candidates and their political parties. They vote for the candidates and parties that are best for their personal interest in the short term, and not what might be best for the system as a whole.

As part of the system, whether as religious worshippers, voters or taxpayers, we must all help maintain the system by getting rid of bad individuals who taint the system with their greed and dishonesty. This can be done by pressuring through social boycotts, signature campaigns for impeachment, and disclosure through the conventional media as well as the new social networking media, in addition to taking legal action

-- The Nation 2010-12-03

[bushwacker]

Although what you say is true in theory, the problem here is fraud, corruption and scams are everywhere. In most countries that Thailand would aspire to the same problems exist but you need to go and look for them. In Thailand they seem to be the rule and not the exception. For example, teachers do a shitty job teaching children so they can extort money from parents by providing extra private classes where they teach what they were suppose to have done during the regular class. Do you want a building permit. Well, it takes 3 months for approval unless you pay a bribe in which case it takes a day or two. If you want your plans approved then be smart and pay the government inspector that actually has a business on the side preparing the plans.

In this country if you want a good job then you pay the employer a lump sum before you start working .... what is with that?

The police are a story onto themselves. If you are in an accident then the issue is not who is at fault but rather who can provide the policeman with the most incentive to rule in their favor. Drive your vehicle on the highway and routinely you get stopped by the police under the ruse of traveling too fast. They have no radar but their trained eye says you have been going very fast and should give them money to supplement their income. People try to become policemen because they will be financially set for life. It is so bad that the top policeman in the country canceled the latest round of officier exams because the taking of bribes was so bad that he could not trust any of the results.

On and on it goes. So how do you place faith in the system when the system does not work and only generates and perpetuates the cycles of bribes and dishonesty.

[Thai at Heart]

In a country where every conversation is on the basis of Pee and Nong, I would have thought that this article is simply stating the absolutely bleeding obvious.

[Northman061]

It is the Thai "system" that creates from BIRTH a person bred and held to "place".

You are trained from infancy to understand who your "betters" are and how you should act and live.

At school, you are trained not to think, voice opinions or question the teacher, just do what you are told.

When you get to work, you do not offer ideas or suggestions to those above you and are discouraged to voice complaints.

You understand that no matter how poor someone is at their job, if they are more "senior" to you that they get the next "up" job opening.

As an adult, "certain" subjects are never discussed. Open Political debate and comment is seen as something "Anti Thai". TV is so dull and bland, minds stay limp and untroubled.

And above all, you know that money speaks, money controls, money puts you above others and outside the law.

So the system breeds conforming, unthinking masses that know their place, and their place is to bow and scrape before these "betters".

So no matter how bad an "Eliete" is, or how corrupt or how viloent, the people cannot think for themselves, so follow like a well trained dog.

"Amazing" Thailand...........

Edited December 3, 2010 by Northman061

[SomTumTiger]

It is the Thai "system" that creates from BIRTH a person bred and held to "place".

You are trained from infancy to understand who your "betters" are and how you should act and live.

At school, you are trained not to think, voice opinions or question the teacher, just do what you are told.

When you get to work, you do not offer ideas or suggestions to those above you and are discouraged to voice complaints.

You understand that no matter how poor someone is at their job, if they are more "senior" to you that they get the next "up" job opening.

As an adult, "certain" subjects are never discussed. Open Political debate and comment is seen as something "Anti Thai". TV is so dull and bland, minds stay limp and untroubled.

And above all, you know that money speaks, money controls, money puts you above others and outside the law.

So the system breeds conforming, unthinking masses that know their place, and their place is to bow and scrape before these "betters".

So no matter how bad an "Eliete" is, or how corrupt or how viloent, the people cannot think for themselves, so follow like a well trained dog.

"Amazing" Thailand...........

It works for them, whose to say if it is right or wrong. Mind your own business. :jap:

[whybother]

It is the Thai "system" that creates from BIRTH a person bred and held to "place".

You are trained from infancy to understand who your "betters" are and how you should act and live.

At school, you are trained not to think, voice opinions or question the teacher, just do what you are told.

When you get to work, you do not offer ideas or suggestions to those above you and are discouraged to voice complaints.

You understand that no matter how poor someone is at their job, if they are more "senior" to you that they get the next "up" job opening.

As an adult, "certain" subjects are never discussed. Open Political debate and comment is seen as something "Anti Thai". TV is so dull and bland, minds stay limp and untroubled.

And above all, you know that money speaks, money controls, money puts you above others and outside the law.

So the system breeds conforming, unthinking masses that know their place, and their place is to bow and scrape before these "betters".

So no matter how bad an "Eliete" is, or how corrupt or how viloent, the people cannot think for themselves, so follow like a well trained dog.

"Amazing" Thailand...........

Actually, I don't think political debate is frowned on in Thailand. Even the monarchy is discussed. It's usually just farangs trying to discuss Thai politics with Thais that becomes a problem.

I agree with the rest of your statements, but would add that a Thai becomes more important, and therefore should be listened to, when they come into money, regardless of how they get it. That is one of the reasons marrying a farang is important to some families. The farang brings in money which makes the family more important.

The villages (in all of Thailand) use this system to great effect. The rich villagers and rich business people are "always right" and can't be questioned, and that usually keeps the poorer villagers poor.

[cup-O-coffee]

An interesting and thought-provoking read.

How is it that a few men on horses can herd 10,000 cattle across the country to an exact location with clockwork precision and timing?

What is on the minds of the cattle during that trip? Food? Water? Follow the cow in the lead (herd-mindedness)?

What is on the minds of the men on the horses? Watch out for bad weather, so the cows don't get spooked? Keep the watering holes close, and the green fields nearer? Don't push the cows beyond their limits? Get them to the slaughterhouse as effectively as possible? Put down any strays or stampeders before the others get funny ideas?

This article first describes the flaws of the men on the horses, and then suggests that all the cows need to do is change direction and the men on the horses will follow. Not so. The cow that refuses to go where it is supposed to will be put down, and the other cows will continue their march.

It doesn't take much to control people for 2553 years if you can keep them stupid and superstitious. Sure! It works for them, if that is your idea of a happy existence; but makes a bleak contrast in the views of those who are evolving elsewhere.

[yellow1red1]

so overly long, tedious, they really do get paid by the word ,,, aight?

It would be easier to read if the author used correct vocabulary.

Adherence and trust are NOT synonyms!

there has never been 'trust' only 'compliance' <deleted>

get a Thai Eng dic

[Lifer]

It is the Thai "system" that creates from BIRTH a person bred and held to "place".

You are trained from infancy to understand who your "betters" are and how you should act and live.

At school, you are trained not to think, voice opinions or question the teacher, just do what you are told.

When you get to work, you do not offer ideas or suggestions to those above you and are discouraged to voice complaints.

You understand that no matter how poor someone is at their job, if they are more "senior" to you that they get the next "up" job opening.

As an adult, "certain" subjects are never discussed. Open Political debate and comment is seen as something "Anti Thai". TV is so dull and bland, minds stay limp and untroubled.

And above all, you know that money speaks, money controls, money puts you above others and outside the law.

So the system breeds conforming, unthinking masses that know their place, and their place is to bow and scrape before these "betters".

So no matter how bad an "Eliete" is, or how corrupt or how viloent, the people cannot think for themselves, so follow like a well trained dog.

"Amazing" Thailand...........

It works for them, whose to say if it is right or wrong. Mind your own business. :jap:

Its precisely this kind of thinking that has caused Thailand to have so many problems, and to be so screwed up. The writer of the article above was right on the money. Sad, but true.

[housepainter]

Faith in what is eroding? The second and third paragraphs are nonsense. There is a catelogue of corruption followed by an equation with a good reputation. Baffling!

The fourth paragraph says the public are duped. Then it says they are not duped but left disillusioned. Which is it?

The fifth paragraph adds that believing the system is rotten is wrong because only individuals have damaged it. But surely if it is damaged then the people are right to question it and those responsible. Aren't they?

The system, hello!, is corrupt. That's the problem. Advocating that you maintain the system is merely advocating the condoning of corruption. Change is needed. Your 'systems' aren't working.

Vote buying is rife. This is because the people do not understand democracy, they remain powerless caught up in a Thai feudal overlord system. They remain without education, without what the West would acknowledge to be a free press. They certainly do not have freedom of speech or freedom of ideas. There is barely any political ideology.

Your description of the Patron-client relationship sounds as though you suport it. It is the shackles and chains of a master and slave relationship. How on earth you can describe it as 'important' and not a form of enslavement beggars belief.

Voters in urban areas are informed, educated and free to make up their own minds. They are not visited, threatened or so poor they can be bought for a few hundred baht. Have you ever visited Thailand as you can't possibly be Thai?

In addition to taking legal action? The last on your list. Wrong. If the system did work, and part of that system is something called the law, then the people wouldn't need anything else to fix society. How cana thin raft of drum banging, letter writing and social networking, a latest fad, ever replace the first and foremost system for delivering justice and equality across a society?

Really, this is a shockingly daft and inept piece twaddle. It actually illuminates the problem in Thailand; the saving of face. the total inability to ever stand up and call it as it is. Thailand has fumbled into this parlous state and until it acts honestly and responsibly, losing that 'face' and mai pen rai nonsense along the way, it will remain deep in the hole it has long ago inhabited.

We foreigners see it. You Thais don't.

Awful journalism that simply fails the people.

[jayjay0]

Faith in what is eroding? The second and third paragraphs are nonsense. There is a catelogue of corruption followed by an equation with a good reputation. Baffling!

The fourth paragraph says the public are duped. Then it says they are not duped but left disillusioned. Which is it?

The fifth paragraph adds that believing the system is rotten is wrong because only individuals have damaged it. But surely if it is damaged then the people are right to question it and those responsible. Aren't they?

The system, hello!, is corrupt. That's the problem. Advocating that you maintain the system is merely advocating the condoning of corruption. Change is needed. Your 'systems' aren't working.

Vote buying is rife. This is because the people do not understand democracy, they remain powerless caught up in a Thai feudal overlord system. They remain without education, without what the West would acknowledge to be a free press. They certainly do not have freedom of speech or freedom of ideas. There is barely any political ideology.

Your description of the Patron-client relationship sounds as though you suport it. It is the shackles and chains of a master and slave relationship. How on earth you can describe it as 'important' and not a form of enslavement beggars belief.

Voters in urban areas are informed, educated and free to make up their own minds. They are not visited, threatened or so poor they can be bought for a few hundred baht. Have you ever visited Thailand as you can't possibly be Thai?

In addition to taking legal action? The last on your list. Wrong. If the system did work, and part of that system is something called the law, then the people wouldn't need anything else to fix society. How cana thin raft of drum banging, letter writing and social networking, a latest fad, ever replace the first and foremost system for delivering justice and equality across a society?

Really, this is a shockingly daft and inept piece twaddle. It actually illuminates the problem in Thailand; the saving of face. the total inability to ever stand up and call it as it is. Thailand has fumbled into this parlous state and until it acts honestly and responsibly, losing that 'face' and mai pen rai nonsense along the way, it will remain deep in the hole it has long ago inhabited.

We foreigners see it. You Thais don't.

Awful journalism that simply fails the people.

Actually your description of the article also says a lot about the posters who agreed with it. In the main they are the ones who will always take a cheap shot at a Thai and never never give any credit

I Thought you were leaving Thailand. Seems I read that some place.

[Doc50]

It is the Thai "system" that creates from BIRTH a person bred and held to "place".

You are trained from infancy to understand who your "betters" are and how you should act and live.

At school, you are trained not to think, voice opinions or question the teacher, just do what you are told.

When you get to work, you do not offer ideas or suggestions to those above you and are discouraged to voice complaints.

You understand that no matter how poor someone is at their job, if they are more "senior" to you that they get the next "up" job opening.

As an adult, "certain" subjects are never discussed. Open Political debate and comment is seen as something "Anti Thai". TV is so dull and bland, minds stay limp and untroubled.

And above all, you know that money speaks, money controls, money puts you above others and outside the law.

So the system breeds conforming, unthinking masses that know their place, and their place is to bow and scrape before these "betters".

So no matter how bad an "Eliete" is, or how corrupt or how viloent, the people cannot think for themselves, so follow like a well trained dog.

"Amazing" Thailand...........

I couldn't agree more.

In school they teach you whether you were born high or low.

They teach in the school system that "farangs are born high" and others with white skin are born high etc.

How can we expect someone to think for themselves when they are repeatedly taught they were "born low".

Amazing Thailand ching ching.

[housepainter]

[i Thought you were leaving Thailand. Seems I read that some place.

Until it comes via Wickileaks never believe what you read.

I liked your post.

[Doc50]

It is the Thai "system" that creates from BIRTH a person bred and held to "place".

You are trained from infancy to understand who your "betters" are and how you should act and live.

At school, you are trained not to think, voice opinions or question the teacher, just do what you are told.

When you get to work, you do not offer ideas or suggestions to those above you and are discouraged to voice complaints.

You understand that no matter how poor someone is at their job, if they are more "senior" to you that they get the next "up" job opening.

As an adult, "certain" subjects are never discussed. Open Political debate and comment is seen as something "Anti Thai". TV is so dull and bland, minds stay limp and untroubled.

And above all, you know that money speaks, money controls, money puts you above others and outside the law.

So the system breeds conforming, unthinking masses that know their place, and their place is to bow and scrape before these "betters".

So no matter how bad an "Eliete" is, or how corrupt or how viloent, the people cannot think for themselves, so follow like a well trained dog.

"Amazing" Thailand...........

It works for them, whose to say if it is right or wrong. Mind your own business. :jap:

I would not call how many was it dead in the last protest 100-150, a coup every few years working.

I would think by any standard that was a failure.

"It works for them" what Farangs who help support this country pay taxes and like it here do not have any say.

Rubbish!!

[asiawatcher]

"... When a scandal erupts, we should focus on maintaining the system rather than preserving or protecting the individuals involved. People come and go, but the system must continue."

But this is exactly the problem. It is the system which allows corruption with little or no criminal recourse. So right now the system of corruption is alive and well, and thriving so isn't time to review and change the system?

Sorry - that would be common sense. T.i.T. I retract my suggestion.

[uncletom]

So much corruption in every crevice and cranny frequently coming to light on a daily basis has become so overwhelming to the point that it perhaps has desensitized the Thai public and the international viewers abilities to go on crusade to stomp it out.

Each charge is its own case and can’t be lumped together. So one atrocity to the next being only newsworthy as in one ear and out the other, leaving only until the next one is discovered to be heard and then so on, and so on, and so on……….

The NHRC including the media are sort of powerless to act leaving only business as normal in the big corrupt Thailand pie.

uncletom

[SweeneyAgonistes]

But it takes two to tango,...blah...blah...balh

One of the oldest lies in politics - blame the victim. It's not my fault that Cameron is an arse and it's not the fault of the average Thitiporn that a bunch of self-serving crooks run the Thai state.

Every institution has bad individuals

Every? Really? I agree but I'm surprised to see a reactionary rag like The Nation share my opinions.

[tomyummer]

Corruption is 'allowed' in Thailand because there is no system. No system of checks and balances, easy for traces to be lost through the cracks. Loopholes, double book keeping, and lack of contract respect pretty much says 'come, cheat me, it's easy to get away with it'.

This obviously is not only in government but also in the private sector where paper trails and accountability is often non existent or easily lost. 'This is Thailand' seems to be the name of the system that people adhere to. Why should anyone expect a change when the government sets the example?

Thailand is still a paper society where archaic filing and processing depends on the mood of your government officer and whether you've signed the 100's of company stamped documents. A paper society where 1000 baht bills do the talking.

Invest in pulp, Thailand's consumption will always be huge as will the corruption and lack of any system.

[jayjay0]

An interesting and thought-provoking read.

How is it that a few men on horses can herd 10,000 cattle across the country to an exact location with clockwork precision and timing?

What is on the minds of the cattle during that trip? Food? Water? Follow the cow in the lead (herd-mindedness)?

What is on the minds of the men on the horses? Watch out for bad weather, so the cows don't get spooked? Keep the watering holes close, and the green fields nearer? Don't push the cows beyond their limits? Get them to the slaughterhouse as effectively as possible? Put down any strays or stampeders before the others get funny ideas?

This article first describes the flaws of the men on the horses, and then suggests that all the cows need to do is change direction and the men on the horses will follow. Not so. The cow that refuses to go where it is supposed to will be put down, and the other cows will continue their march.

It doesn't take much to control people for 2553 years if you can keep them stupid and superstitious. Sure! It works for them, if that is your idea of a happy existence; but makes a bleak contrast in the views of those who are evolving elsewhere.

You hit the nail right on the head when you said

(" if that is your idea of a happy existence")

How much of the controversy on theses farong boards is caused by just that a complete disregard for the Thai's version of a happy existence.

I myself have a different idea than they do but in all my greatness I would not wish to impose it on them or tell them they are wrong.

I leave that job to people with more principals than I have.

I also like the bit about those evolving elsewhere. Are you speaking of Cambodia ,Laos Burma or one of those western countries where they have millionaires jumping out of windows.

[jayjay0]

If I believed Thailand was as awful or even half as bad as many farong posters would like me to believe I would be out of here so fast it would make your head spin. Why for the love of mike would any one want to stay if they thought it was that bad.

Thank God I understand that those posts simply make the poster feel useful when in fact he is just farting in the wind.

Edited December 5, 2010 by jayjay0

[animatic]

They have successfully maintained ONE system to a fare thee well,

the Kow Tow System, which IMO is the root cause of

most of Thailand's social and international problems.

Edited December 5, 2010 by animatic