Caught Jamming

[dr_Pat_Pong]

If you could please PM a copy to me, too!

Tx

Sunny

As soon as I have the document in hand (should be next wknd), I'll email or PM those who have requested it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you get it?

Regards,

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not yet. The weekend I arranged to pick it up, the guitarist in question forgot to bring it, and I haven't had a chance to arrange another handover. I'm hoping I'll get it this weekend.

As soon as I do have the papers, I'll make copies for everyone that requested them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too. Thanks

[sabaijai]

If you could please PM a copy to me, too!

Tx

Sunny

As soon as I have the document in hand (should be next wknd), I'll email or PM those who have requested it.

Did you get it?

Regards,

Mike

Not yet. The weekend I arranged to pick it up, the guitarist in question forgot to bring it, and I haven't had a chance to arrange another handover. I'm hoping I'll get it this weekend.

As soon as I do have the papers, I'll make copies for everyone that requested them.

Me too. Thanks

Dr Pat, are you a jammer too then?

[dr_Pat_Pong]

If you could please PM a copy to me, too!

Tx

Sunny

As soon as I have the document in hand (should be next wknd), I'll email or PM those who have requested it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you get it?

Regards,

Mike

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not yet. The weekend I arranged to pick it up, the guitarist in question forgot to bring it, and I haven't had a chance to arrange another handover. I'm hoping I'll get it this weekend.

As soon as I do have the papers, I'll make copies for everyone that requested them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too. Thanks

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dr Pat, are you a jammer too then?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sometimes

[steveromagnino]

Anyway, after my legal status expired (I think it was a J1 Visa or something) the hotel would not let me play anymore; even though I was not getting paid.

Point taken that it's not necessarily just Thailand but you are neither are you making an equal comparison. In your case, you were initially working legally in the US and you were then (potentially) performing the exact same function without said authorization.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...and just to further clarify, steve. Had your visa expired? If so, then that puts you in a different position than the OP describes.

The reason I ask is that when a J1 expires, normally you are expected to return to your home country.

I had the J1 to work at as an accountant at a hotel. I used to just play (for free) for fun from time to time, because accounting sucks so much

As soon as my work permit for the accounting malarky finished (and as a New Zealand citizen I already had an entry visa permitting me to stay in USA indefinitely I think it was - this was 10 years ago now) I was also "asked" not to play music anymore.

So I consider this to be almost the exact same situation; playing just for fun, and without a work permit not allowed to.

Their reasoning was that were I to incur an accident; being bottled or mosh pit action that sort of thing (well, playing 30s style Duke Ellington swing is quite a riot don't you know) that I would sue them as an employer. Of course, I pointed out that contract law doesn't permit a contract based on an illegality which it would have been since I didn't have a work permit to be an employee... however there was no reasoning with them. They did have like 2,000 employees though, so I guess they had to have some policy.

[sriracha john]

Anyway, after my legal status expired (I think it was a J1 Visa or something) the hotel would not let me play anymore; even though I was not getting paid.

Point taken that it's not necessarily just Thailand but you are neither are you making an equal comparison. In your case, you were initially working legally in the US and you were then (potentially) performing the exact same function without said authorization.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...and just to further clarify, steve. Had your visa expired? If so, then that puts you in a different position than the OP describes.

The reason I ask is that when a J1 expires, normally you are expected to return to your home country.

I had the J1 to work at as an accountant at a hotel. I used to just play (for free) for fun from time to time, because accounting sucks so much

As soon as my work permit for the accounting malarky finished (and as a New Zealand citizen I already had an entry visa permitting me to stay in USA indefinitely I think it was - this was 10 years ago now) I was also "asked" not to play music anymore.

So I consider this to be almost the exact same situation; playing just for fun, and without a work permit not allowed to.

Their reasoning was that were I to incur an accident; being bottled or mosh pit action that sort of thing (well, playing 30s style Duke Ellington swing is quite a riot don't you know) that I would sue them as an employer. Of course, I pointed out that contract law doesn't permit a contract based on an illegality which it would have been since I didn't have a work permit to be an employee... however there was no reasoning with them. They did have like 2,000 employees though, so I guess they had to have some policy.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Phew... thanks... that's been nagging incessantly on my mind now for almost 3 months.. time to finally rest easy.

[sabaijai]

Still don't have the papers. I hope I haven't been duped by the fellow who claimed to have them. He now says he has to pick them up from court.

[Micke]

I suppose you don't have the papers yet?

Regards,

Mike

[dannishgung]

This is absolutely ridiculous country. Being a very poor country and spend all the country's resources on rediculous things that people are forbidden to talk about.

And about the rediculous work permit situation, I have the most rediculous incident ever happened to a Swedish friend last year. At the Asoke subway intersection, there are always little boys wiping the windows of car and beg for a tip. My Swedish friend befriended these boys and they gave him a wiper and he started to help wiping the windows of the cars for them for fun, and helped collected over 100 bahts of tip for these little kids over an hour or so.

Then suddenly some police came and arrested him and took him to the immigration department or rather detention. He stayed there without any interpreter and could not understand what was going on for next ten hours. These crazy officilas even asked him to show the work permit??!! Was that meant to be a joke??!! He was kept there actually until the morning and let go after defending himself all night.

It was his first trip to Thailand, and this gave him a very very bad impression of this country. He now called this nation crazy Thai every time.

[Firefan]

He,he - great story Dannishgung! It happened to me too as I was whiping my own butt, the police came busting through the bathroom stall doors and arrested me on the spot for performing work without a work permit!

Joking aside, he DID in theory break the law, it sounds like they were looking for a good excuse to make some quick cash. They might also have misunderstood the situation and thought that he liked those young boys a bit too much - who knows?

Cheer up - Thailand is still a fantastic place to live! Cheers!

[sabaijai]

I suppose you don't have the papers yet?

Regards,

Mike

I just saw the jammer in question this past weekend. He has the papers in hand, now all I have to do is pick them up, scan them, and distribute to any who PM'ed me their emails. I hope to have the scanning done this week.

[เพลง]

Just to be clear, I used to have a work permit to work in USA, but it expired. Previously I had from time to time played with the house band at the hotel I worked at. I was terrible, but they needed the help :-)

Anyway, after my legal status expired (I think it was a J1 Visa or something) the hotel would not let me play anymore; even though I was not getting paid. They pointed out that playing regularly and possibly receiving tips (even though they were not in control of that) could be construed as work; they could be construed as employers and therefore I could not play anymore. They were worried about a visit from the INS or my claim against them should I suffer an accident in the workplace (and theoretically that I could persue a case that they had engaged me to work for them in return for the possibility of earning tips and/or assisting others to generate income. I was just doing it for fun!

All this utter rubbish and drivel I read all the time on threads like this about Thais and Thailand. Please also expand to read... Thais and Thailand and Americans And USA. TIT indeed - I think not... please write TITAUSA.

Thanks.

I'll third that... it is illigal for anybody to take part in any paid or volantary work in the uk just the same as it is in Thailand. The only difference is we're not as generous with our VISA's in the first place so there are a lot less forign expat's to complain about it.

Quite frankly I'm amazed at how "hard done by" farrangs think they are... sure when I move out to Thailand I want to be able to won land, or to jam with a band... am I gonna make a fuss because I can't? No... what RIGHT do I have as a forigner in somebody else's land?

For those who are complaining ask yourselves this: how many of your Thai friends (assuming you've gone to the rouble of actually making any) would be granted entry into your country for 30 days without question as you are into theirs? If the answer is more than 0, how many of those do you think would start complainign about not being able to jam? If your answer is still zero you need to check your maths, or else get your head checked!

This is absolutely ridiculous country.

Then go home....

I appreciate the absurdity of the story in your post, but nobody is forcing you to stay

[sabaijai]

Update on the court doc: I finally got a copy. Now that I've read through it myself (in Thai) I'm not sure how broadly applicable it is.

Basically it's a decision handed down by the Chiang Mai administrative court absolving the owner of the club (not the jammer himself) of any wrongdoing. The original charge was that the owner of the place in question (Guitar Man in Chiang Mai) had hired the foreigner to play nightly, and since he didn't have a work permit, she was in violation of the law. The foreigner's name appears in several places in the document, along with the owner's name, so perhaps the case can be used as a 'precedent' in any future case filed against him or other foreigners accused directly.

The decision explains that the defendant successfully argued that customers were always invited to jam at Guitar Man, and that the foreign guitarist was simply another customer. The decision points out that he wasn't getting paid, and that jamming was a form of entertainment provided by the club.

The court agreed, and in the document the judge points out several times that allowing a a customer to jam onstage with the Thai house band is no different from allowing customers to sing onstage at a karaoke club. The judge also mentions, several times, the fact that the foreigner wasn't paid, so that does appear to be germane in this case (even if it isn't generally applicable).

So the document might have more potential as protection for club owners than for foreigners jamming. The owner of Guitar Man now keeps copies of the decision on hand at the club to show to any official who might come around (none have since the first time). I'm not sure how useful it would be for any foreigner to have a copy of the document but I can still send a scan (with the names of the plaintiff and foreigner blacked out) to anyone who wants it.

I still have a list of folks who expressed interest in the document, so as soon as I have it scanned, I'll send via email. Might be another longish delay as I'm pretty busy with work at the moment, so appreciate your patience.

[TAWP]

Thank God farangs are allowed to have hobbies.