Abhisit Should Get Own House In Order Instead Of Playing Game Of Bluff

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE

Abhisit should get own house in order instead of playing game of bluff

By Supalak Ganjanakhundee

The Nation

It doesn't really matter whether former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra is actually able to testify before the United States Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe. His mission has already effectively been accomplished, when major media outlets in Thailand placed the news of the panel's invitation as their top story early this week.

Politically, the move is a simple game of bluff between the ex-PM and the government of Abhisit Vejjajiva. Being invited to give testimony to the US commission has no real implications for domestic or international politics and is really a non-issue, but it has certainly attracted much public attention.

The body, also known as the Helsinki Commission, is an independent US government agency created in 1976 to monitor and encourage compliance with the Helsinki Final Act and other commitments of the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). The commission consists of nine members from the US Senate, nine from the US House of Representatives and one member each from the departments of State, Defence and Commerce.

Thailand's domestic affairs come under the attention of the panel as the country has been a cooperation partner of the OSCE since November 2000, but neither the Helsinki Commission nor the OSCE itself has ever been under the Thai media's spotlight until now. Both should express special gratitude to Thaksin for making them well known in Thailand, as the Foreign Ministry has failed over the past decade to give this cooperation mechanism any public profile.

According to the invitation letter, sent to his lobbyist Amsterdam & Peroff in Washington, Thaksin would have only seven to 10 minutes to speak at the commission on December 16 on "Thailand, Democracy, Governance and Human Rights". The information he could provide might not exceed what people in Thailand already know, but Abhisit might be worried about it as his government has failed to fix problems in each of these areas.

In fact, Thaksin doesn't need to fly across the world to Washington to speak for just 10 minutes. He could testify via teleconference or other channels, but of course his presence in the US would get much more media coverage. It's meaningful for him, but does nothing for the public interest.

Thaksin has got the upper hand in this game of bluff, as Abhisit and his government have no strategy on how to react. While the prime minister pretends not to be paying the matter attention or taking it seriously, other agencies have said they are mulling requesting Thaksin's extradition from the US should he be granted an entry visa.

Unfortunately, the signals from these government agencies have been confusing. Abhisit hasn't made clear whether he really wants Thaksin's extradition, while the Foreign Ministry and the Office of the Attorney-General (OAG) are arguing over which of them would make any official extradition request to the US authorities.

Exchanges between the ministry and the OAG over an extradition request revealed the truth of the matter, namely that the government just wanted to call Thaksin's bluff cheaply. If the former premier really feared extradition, he would cancel his trip - and some government cheerleaders might then credit Abhisit with successfully blocking Thaksin's plans.

The bluffing tactic does not, however, answer the major question of the human-rights situation, democracy and governance in Thailand. As long as the suppression of the red shirts continues, questions over the 91 deaths in April and May remain unsolved, media censorship continues, enforcement of emergency law in the capital is still in place and violence in the deep South has not been contained, Thaksin will never be lacking in points to make to any forum.

If he really wanted to make Thaksin go quiet, Abhisit should fix all these outstanding problems concerning his own governance.

-- The Nation 2010-12-10

[animatic]

More like Blind Mans Bluff.

[whybother]

Who's playing bluff?

Noppadon: Thaksin's going to the US.

Thaksin: I'm not going to the US.

Noppadon: Thaksin's going to the US.

[jesimps]

Of course things have improved greatly for farang since Mr Abhasit's been in power..........

[jayjay0]

suppression of the red shirts. Is the Nation advocating to let terrorists run unchecked.

Why does TV even use one of there articles much less use them as the major source. TV give us some real news. Not this far from accurate reporting.

Des the Nation not realize that the current Government is still trying to clean up the mess Thaksin left and is trying to return to power. Given the damage Thaksin has been causing they are doing a super job.

Edited December 10, 2010 by jayjay0

[thailandbluegrass]

Of course things have improved greatly for farang since Mr Abhasit's been in power..........

Tell us 1 thing that has improved for us farangs please?

1. Is it the great rule that farang can only enter Thailand for 15 days now instead of the 30 days before?
2. Is it that farangs are rotting in Thai jails like un-wanted dogs while the government worries about where Thaxsin is going to be next?
3. Is it that Abhasit has made the south a great place for tourists to visit now if they want to get shot and killed?
4. Is it that Tourism has become the the lowest issue on his mind right now (attracting tourists)
5. Is it because of the Media and website blockages that most of us Foreigners rely on?
6. Is it because the Abhisit government has brung Thailand into a 3rd world state again so that there is now a reccession and the only way the Thai's make up for the loss of money now is by double charging us?

Tell us how this wonderful government has made it better please?

[Thaddeus]

Of course things have improved greatly for farang since Mr Abhasit's been in power..........

<snip>

Tell us how this wonderful government has made it better please?

Don't know about you, but I detected just a hint of sarchasm.

[jayjay0]

Of course things have improved greatly for farang since Mr Abhasit's been in power..........

<snip>

Tell us how this wonderful government has made it better please?

Don't know about you, but I detected just a hint of sarchasm.

I detected a hint of cynicism.

With a narrow point of view added on.

I know of two people rotting in there jails. They earned it I suspect he is a elitist and thinks farongs should be honored no matter what they do. :jap:

Last time I checked my visa was good for one year. He is also a little out of touch with reality.

[Bakseedaa]

Of course things have improved greatly for farang since Mr Abhasit's been in power..........

Tell us 1 thing that has improved for us farangs please?

1. Is it the great rule that farang can only enter Thailand for 15 days now instead of the 30 days before?
2. Is it that farangs are rotting in Thai jails like un-wanted dogs while the government worries about where Thaxsin is going to be next?
3. Is it that Abhasit has made the south a great place for tourists to visit now if they want to get shot and killed?
4. Is it that Tourism has become the the lowest issue on his mind right now (attracting tourists)
5. Is it because of the Media and website blockages that most of us Foreigners rely on?
6. Is it because the Abhisit government has brung Thailand into a 3rd world state again so that there is now a reccession and the only way the Thai's make up for the loss of money now is by double charging us?

Tell us how this wonderful government has made it better please?

HaHa.... your name says it all.... anf Thaksin will NEVER go to the USA....

[neverdie]

Thaksin has got the upper hand in this game of bluff

He's certainly got his hand on it, theres never been any doubt about that

[SomTumTiger]

I think he is doing a better job of ordering his house than I can recall from other administrations of the past decade.

[slapout]

Jack the ripper was thought to be a surgeon by some, Thaksin is mentioned to have been a Prime Minister. The latter is common knowledge, as is the similarity of the gross abuse of power/knowledge of both of these infamous characters.

[OzMick]

The author suggests the PM should solve most of Thailand's problems overnight without suggesting how that may be done. Perhaps he could borrow Harry Potter's wand.

As for the hillbilly, may I suggest that most of your problems are currency, or lack of it, related, and that is the fault of your own country not Thailand. The little Oz dollar, once referred to as the Pacific Peso, is doing fine, thank you very much, and I have no problems with local pricing, or accessing the internet.

I can even afford to buy a visa, which is why border run entries were reduced to 15 days, to encourage you to do the same. I find it quite reasonable that any country should know who is living within their borders, and not grant carte blanche entry to anybody who can afford to get to a border once a month

As for southern tourism, how many tourists have been shot or otherwise affected. I regularly visit Had Yai, Songkla, Satun and even Sungai Kolok (you can cross the border there, and BUY a visa), by bike, and never had the slightest problem.

Edited December 10, 2010 by OzMick

[hardy1943]

Of course things have improved greatly for farang since Mr Abhasit's been in power..........

You tell me what? All I seen from him lower exchange rates higher prices and twice as many government employees but less efficient.

Bring back the good old days when the military ran the country out right.

[Valentine]

Of course things have improved greatly for farang since Mr Abhasit's been in power..........

Tell us 1 thing that has improved for us farangs please?

1. Is it the great rule that farang can only enter Thailand for 15 days now instead of the 30 days before?
2. Is it that farangs are rotting in Thai jails like un-wanted dogs while the government worries about where Thaxsin is going to be next?
3. Is it that Abhasit has made the south a great place for tourists to visit now if they want to get shot and killed?
4. Is it that Tourism has become the the lowest issue on his mind right now (attracting tourists)
5. Is it because of the Media and website blockages that most of us Foreigners rely on?
6. Is it because the Abhisit government has brung Thailand into a 3rd world state again so that there is now a reccession and the only way the Thai's make up for the loss of money now is by double charging us?

Tell us how this wonderful government has made it better please?

1. Only 15 days if you enter overland otherwise normally 30 days.

2. Evidence please.

3. Terrorism in the south increased greatly during Mr T's tenure.

4. Tourists are currently arriving in record numbers.

5. Media freedoms were already under threat during the previous government of Mr T who threatened many with lawsuits including a female journo whom he sued for 2 billion.

6. The Thai economy is showing better growth rates than most throughout the world.

So what planet or alternate universe are you living in or are you just a genuine troll.

[SergeiY]

The bluffing tactic does not, however, answer the major question of the human-rights situation, democracy and governance in Thailand. As long as the suppression of the red shirts continues, questions over the 91 deaths in April and May remain unsolved, media censorship continues, enforcement of emergency law in the capital is still in place and violence in the deep South has not been contained, Thaksin will never be lacking in points to make to any forum.

If he really wanted to make Thaksin go quiet, Abhisit should fix all these outstanding problems concerning his own governance.

Bingo!

[fnprop]

Well, the author (and apparently more than a few TV posters) have once again fallen into the illusion of Thai democracy in action.

The whole Thaksin-in-Washington story has been overblown, and extensively covered. It's really a pity that three other statements, released on the same day that this news broke, haven't received the same amount of attention in ink or bits:

1. The Thai National Human Rights Council stating that there is credible evidence of torture, forced confessions, secret trials and 20-year sentences without legal representation, and false arrests carried out by authorities acting under the CRES. This is one of those quasi-governmental independent bodies, like the National Anti-Corruption Commission, that is supposed to provide some checks and balances on unrestrained use of government powers, not some collection of NGO's.

2. The Truth and Reconciliation Commission chairman said that there would be no satisfactory conclusion to the Commission's work, as the CRES and military institutions have simply ignored requests for any information, and refused to make available or allow any of their members to be interviewed. Again, this is not some UDD splinter group, but a body set up by the government itself, as one of the 5 critical pieces of its Roadmap to Reconciliation that was rejected by the UDD before the second round of shooting started.

3. The DSI (no great UDD fans themselves) has washed its hands of any further investigations of killings during the disturbances, citing the same CRES and military intransigence, and handing the remainder of its work over to the Royal Thai Police Force. This leaves a number of unresolved questions about high-profile incidents like the temple killings and the killing of the Japanese photographer, in limbo. Not to mention the questions of families of the other victims.

All in all, it has been nicely played by the government and its supporters. Dredge up the specter of Public Enemy #1, make idle threats, speculations and boasts about what he can/will/can't/won't do, and what their non-existent response will be. Keep up the noise level until those other statements drop off the public radar. Thaksin and his mouthpieces responding and trading barbs with these people has played right into their hands. They couldn't have given more support if they had been reading from a script.

[truethailand]

Breaking News. Channel News Asia

A friend just told me that they are reporting about a document from the DSI, (not sure if leaked) that a number of the shootings in the temple on May 19th were people shot from above. The trajectory of the bullets in and out of the body and the caliber of ammunition pointed to the Thai special forces. Dont know anymore at this time. The document was given to Reuters. Can somebody verify this?

Edited December 10, 2010 by truethailand

[whybother]

Breaking News. Channel News Asia

A friend just told me that they are reporting about a document from the DSI, (not sure if leaked) that a number of the shootings in the temple on May 19th were people shot from above. The trajectory of the bullets in and out of the body and the caliber of ammunition pointed to the Thai special forces. Dont know anymore at this time. The document was given to Reuters. Can somebody verify this?

Yes ... Breaking News ... from November 17.

The deaths in four cases possibly involving security forces are: three deaths in Wat Pathum Wanaram,

[truethailand]

Breaking News. Channel News Asia

A friend just told me that they are reporting about a document from the DSI, (not sure if leaked) that a number of the shootings in the temple on May 19th were people shot from above. The trajectory of the bullets in and out of the body and the caliber of ammunition pointed to the Thai special forces. Dont know anymore at this time. The document was given to Reuters. Can somebody verify this?

Yes ... Breaking News ... from November 17.

http://www.thaivisa....eaths-thai-dsi/

The deaths in four cases possibly involving security forces are: three deaths in Wat Pathum Wanaram,

I know that situation but he told me that reuters have got a document with a full report. . From what he said it was not about possibility it was concrete evidence I dont know who they were talking to but he implied nothing will be done in Thailand, (army has a track recored when it comes to shooting protestors).. Thanks for the swift reply but then again I would not expect any less

[whybother]

Breaking News. Channel News Asia

A friend just told me that they are reporting about a document from the DSI, (not sure if leaked) that a number of the shootings in the temple on May 19th were people shot from above. The trajectory of the bullets in and out of the body and the caliber of ammunition pointed to the Thai special forces. Dont know anymore at this time. The document was given to Reuters. Can somebody verify this?

Yes ... Breaking News ... from November 17.

http://www.thaivisa....eaths-thai-dsi/

The deaths in four cases possibly involving security forces are: three deaths in Wat Pathum Wanaram,

I know that situation but he told me that reuters have got a document with a full report. . From what he said it was not about possibility it was concrete evidence I dont know who they were talking to but he implied nothing will be done in Thailand, (army has a track recored when it comes to shooting protestors).. Thanks for the swift reply but then again I would not expect any less

The Reuters report here http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6B90OR20101210?pageNumber=1 just quotes the same preliminary report.

[Buchholz]

According to the invitation letter, sent to his lobbyist Amsterdam & Peroff in Washington, Thaksin would have only seven to 10 minutes to speak at the commission on December 16 on "Thailand, Democracy, Governance and Human Rights".

This article forget to mention the impetus for their hearings, as expressed in the invitation letter, is a case that was brought to the international court against Abhisit for "crimes against humanity" .... that was filed by the same "lobbyist" cum lawyer firm of Amsterdam & Peroff.

This bit written today might help explain how twisted things can be done by A & P (not the supermarket):

Robert Amsterdam - Thaskin Shinawatra Top Lawyer - Defends Democracy

BigNews.Biz

Publish Date: 2010-12-10

Recently Amsterdam & Peroff publicized that they've been hired as legal advisers to previous Prime Minister of Thailand Thaksin Shinawatra, to aid in the present contentious challenge for the revival of democracy and regulation of law in the Southeast Asian country.

"We are delighted to be retained by Prime Minister Shinawatra to be effective on this urgent matter, and we accept and acknowledge the difficult intricacy and level of sensitivity of the political turmoil unraveling Thai society," said Robert Amsterdam, founding partner of the distinguished law firm Amsterdam & Peroff. "It is our objective to examine every legal avenue to aid and support this pro-democracy activity, and urge the international community and general public not to put up with the current government's chaotic attack on peaceful protesters."

Thaksin, who served as Thailand's Prime Minister from 2001 to 2006 before being unlawfully pushed from office by way of a military coup, continues to be residing in self-exile over the past two years despite repetitive victories in democratic elections.

Protesters associated with the National United Front for Democracy in opposition to Dictatorship (UDD, or "Red Shirts"), endured 27 casualties in violent encounters with police and military in the month of April.

Amsterdam & Peroff, founded in 1980 by partners Robert Amsterdam and Dean Peroff, is an international law practice specializing in complicated multi-jurisdictional litigation, industrial arbitration, and political advocacy in challenging rising & growing markets.

The firm maintains offices in London, Washington, DC and Toronto.

Robert Amsterdam

The Homer Building

601 Thirteenth St., N.W.

Eleventh Floor South

Washington, DC 20005

[phiphidon]

I

The Reuters report here http://www.reuters.c...10?pageNumber=1 just quotes the same preliminary report.

If you check out the factbox it does provide more information as below

Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:48am EST

(Reuters) - Leaked state documents show Thailand's military played a larger role in the killing of civilians during political unrest inBangkok this year than officials have acknowledged.

A preliminary state probe, seen by Reuters, concluded Thai special forces positioned on an elevated railway track fired intothe grounds of a temple where several thousand protesters had taken refuge on May 19. Six people were killed there.

Investigations into another case on April 10 indicated the shot that killed Reuters cameraman Hiro Muramoto, who was coveringa protest in Bangkok's old quarter, probably came from the gun of a Thai soldier.

Below are the key findings of the two probes conducted by the Department of Special Investigation and seen by Reuters.

Officials stress the investigations are not complete.

- - - -

TEMPLE KILLINGS, MAY 19

Wat Prathum Wanaram, close to the Ratchaprasong commercial district

occupied by demonstrators for seven weeks, was designated a safe zone for civilians. Several thousand protesters sought refugethere after troops started the offensive to evict the demonstrators.

Thailand's military denied for several months that troops were stationed on the elevated Skytrain rail tracks directly in frontof the temple. The government said shadowy militants were to blame for the killings.

The key findings of the report are:

-- Six people in the temple compound were shot dead. The report gave no figures for the number of people shot and wounded.

-- Multiple witnesses heard gunfire coming from the overhead tracks and saw people in camouflage outfits pointing assault riflesat the temple.

-- One man said he saw gunmen on the Skytrain tracks firing into a medical tent and saw two people who had been shot dead.

-- One man who was hiding under a car in the temple grounds said he was shot at four or five times by men in military fatiguesstationed on the tracks before he was helped to safety by a Buddhist monk.

-- Many people fled to the temple when gunshots were heard coming from a shopping area secured by troops. One man was seen fallingto the floor and later died.

-- No civilian witnesses interviewed reported seeing gunmen inside the temple compound. One witness said he saw five or sixunknown men on the road in front of the temple, dressed in black and carrying rifles. He said they shot and killed one of his co-workers and burned his body.

-- Autopsies revealed the six people killed at the temple were all killed by high velocity bullets. Bullets of the M855 typewere found in the bodies of four of the victims. The type that killed the other two people was unknown. The autopsies showed the trajectory of three of the fatal shots came from above, or "top to bottom", and twowere classed as "bottom to top". For two of the victims, no witnesses saw them killed.

-- Military personnel interviewed in the report said special forces troops were on the railtrack and were armed with M-16 assaultrifles. They said they were equipped with M855 bullets.

-- Troops interviewed said they fired warning shots at walls and over the heads of people within the temple compound, and thatthey acted in line with the rules of engagement. They said their shots were fired around 6 p.m. Witnesses and video footage showed the fatal temple shootings took place around the same time.

-- One soldier said a gunmen was shooting at them from inside the compound and he returned fire. Another soldier said he wasinformed his seven-man team was fired at by armed men inside the temple compound.

-- One soldier said he spotted black-clad gunmen beneath the rail tracks and shot at them.

-- Troops on the Skytrain track provided cover fire for officers on the ground following a request for backup.

-- The report recommended further police investigation into the temple deaths. It concluded: "There is a reasonable amountof facts, evidence and witness accounts to believe that (three) deaths resulted from security officials' actions on duty."

- - - -

DEATH OF REUTERS CAMERAMAN HIRO MURAMOTO, APRIL 10

Muramoto, a 43-year-old Japanese cameraman working for Thomson Reuters in Tokyo, was filming clashes between red shirt demonstratorsand troops near Bangkok's Democracy Monument when he was killed by a high velocity bullet to the chest.

The Thai authorities have come under pressure from Japan to provide details about how Muramoto was killed and only recentlyacknowledged he may have been shot by security forces.

The key findings of the report are:

-- Police at the scene said a heated standoff with hundreds of protesters in darkness led to troops firing into the air followedby bursts of shooting and sporadic blasts. Chaos ensued. Many people were injured and sent to hospital.

-- A soldier, who was slightly wounded, said he was informed troops had come under fire from M-79 grenades and many were hurtby shrapnel. Senior officers held a meeting to plan a retreat and an explosive landed close to them, killing one soldier and the commanding officer. The soldier said retreating troops were attacked with grenades and by protesterswith wooden staves and rocks. He said he had seen Muramoto filming that night, but did not specify a time.

-- A demonstrator saw Muramoto move away from the troops toward where protesters were stood, close to a school. He saw "aflash from a gun barrel of a soldier", then watched Muramoto, who was among the demonstrators, fall after he was shot while filming the troops from afar. He said he did not know who killed him.

-- One man standing within a meter of Muramoto saw a soldier pointing a rifle in his direction. He turned around and saw thejournalist fall backwards onto the pavement while holding a large camera. He carried Muramoto to a nearby rescue vehicle and said he did not know from where exactly the bullet that entered the victim's chest was fired. However,it did not come from the direction of demonstrators.

-- Multiple witnesses saw Muramoto carried away by protesters and placed in a rescue truck. One said the clash ended soon after,when protesters called on troops to stop shooting, because people had been killed.

-- The report concluded: "There is a reasonable amount of facts and evidence to believe that the death of Hiro was dueto an act of the security forces who said they were acting according to official duty."

(Compiled by Bangkok Newsroom; Editing by Andrew Marshall)

[rubl]

I

The Reuters report here http://www.reuters.c...10?pageNumber=1 just quotes the same preliminary report.

If you check out the factbox it does provide more information as below

Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:48am EST

(Reuters) - Leaked state documents show Thailand's military played a larger role in the killing of civilians during political unrest inBangkok this year than officials have acknowledged.

A preliminary state probe, seen by Reuters, concluded Thai special forces positioned on an elevated railway track fired intothe grounds of a temple where several thousand protesters had taken refuge on May 19. Six people were killed there.

Investigations into another case on April 10 indicated the shot that killed Reuters cameraman Hiro Muramoto, who was coveringa protest in Bangkok's old quarter, probably came from the gun of a Thai soldier.

Below are the key findings of the two probes conducted by the Department of Special Investigation and seen by Reuters.

Officials stress the investigations are not complete.

- - - -

TEMPLE KILLINGS, MAY 19

Wat Prathum Wanaram, close to the Ratchaprasong commercial district

occupied by demonstrators for seven weeks, was designated a safe zone for civilians. Several thousand protesters sought refugethere after troops started the offensive to evict the demonstrators.

Thailand's military denied for several months that troops were stationed on the elevated Skytrain rail tracks directly in frontof the temple. The government said shadowy militants were to blame for the killings.

The key findings of the report are:

-- Six people in the temple compound were shot dead. The report gave no figures for the number of people shot and wounded.

-- Multiple witnesses heard gunfire coming from the overhead tracks and saw people in camouflage outfits pointing assault riflesat the temple.

-- One man said he saw gunmen on the Skytrain tracks firing into a medical tent and saw two people who had been shot dead.

-- One man who was hiding under a car in the temple grounds said he was shot at four or five times by men in military fatiguesstationed on the tracks before he was helped to safety by a Buddhist monk.

-- Many people fled to the temple when gunshots were heard coming from a shopping area secured by troops. One man was seen fallingto the floor and later died.

-- No civilian witnesses interviewed reported seeing gunmen inside the temple compound. One witness said he saw five or sixunknown men on the road in front of the temple, dressed in black and carrying rifles. He said they shot and killed one of his co-workers and burned his body.

-- Autopsies revealed the six people killed at the temple were all killed by high velocity bullets. Bullets of the M855 typewere found in the bodies of four of the victims. The type that killed the other two people was unknown. The autopsies showed the trajectory of three of the fatal shots came from above, or "top to bottom", and twowere classed as "bottom to top". For two of the victims, no witnesses saw them killed.

-- Military personnel interviewed in the report said special forces troops were on the railtrack and were armed with M-16 assaultrifles. They said they were equipped with M855 bullets.

-- Troops interviewed said they fired warning shots at walls and over the heads of people within the temple compound, and thatthey acted in line with the rules of engagement. They said their shots were fired around 6 p.m. Witnesses and video footage showed the fatal temple shootings took place around the same time.

-- One soldier said a gunmen was shooting at them from inside the compound and he returned fire. Another soldier said he wasinformed his seven-man team was fired at by armed men inside the temple compound.

-- One soldier said he spotted black-clad gunmen beneath the rail tracks and shot at them.

-- Troops on the Skytrain track provided cover fire for officers on the ground following a request for backup.

-- The report recommended further police investigation into the temple deaths. It concluded: "There is a reasonable amountof facts, evidence and witness accounts to believe that (three) deaths resulted from security officials' actions on duty."

- - - -

DEATH OF REUTERS CAMERAMAN HIRO MURAMOTO, APRIL 10

Muramoto, a 43-year-old Japanese cameraman working for Thomson Reuters in Tokyo, was filming clashes between red shirt demonstratorsand troops near Bangkok's Democracy Monument when he was killed by a high velocity bullet to the chest.

The Thai authorities have come under pressure from Japan to provide details about how Muramoto was killed and only recentlyacknowledged he may have been shot by security forces.

The key findings of the report are:

-- Police at the scene said a heated standoff with hundreds of protesters in darkness led to troops firing into the air followedby bursts of shooting and sporadic blasts. Chaos ensued. Many people were injured and sent to hospital.

-- A soldier, who was slightly wounded, said he was informed troops had come under fire from M-79 grenades and many were hurtby shrapnel. Senior officers held a meeting to plan a retreat and an explosive landed close to them, killing one soldier and the commanding officer. The soldier said retreating troops were attacked with grenades and by protesterswith wooden staves and rocks. He said he had seen Muramoto filming that night, but did not specify a time.

-- A demonstrator saw Muramoto move away from the troops toward where protesters were stood, close to a school. He saw "aflash from a gun barrel of a soldier", then watched Muramoto, who was among the demonstrators, fall after he was shot while filming the troops from afar. He said he did not know who killed him.

-- One man standing within a meter of Muramoto saw a soldier pointing a rifle in his direction. He turned around and saw thejournalist fall backwards onto the pavement while holding a large camera. He carried Muramoto to a nearby rescue vehicle and said he did not know from where exactly the bullet that entered the victim's chest was fired. However,it did not come from the direction of demonstrators.

-- Multiple witnesses saw Muramoto carried away by protesters and placed in a rescue truck. One said the clash ended soon after,when protesters called on troops to stop shooting, because people had been killed.

-- The report concluded: "There is a reasonable amount of facts and evidence to believe that the death of Hiro was dueto an act of the security forces who said they were acting according to official duty."

(Compiled by Bangkok Newsroom; Editing by Andrew Marshall)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these reports suggest things really got out of hand on the 10th of April. Some have said 'if the army hadn't moved in nothing would have happened', but that's like sticking your head in the sand. The army reacted on violence rather starting it. The deaths on the 19th of May were the accumulation of violence started on the 10th of April.

This being Thailand it's difficult to get anyone to admit 'I was wrong'. It shouldn't surprise anyone the army has a problem with that. Lots of armies elsewhere have a problem with that, check wikileaks if you still can. In the end the army should owe up to their guilt, although I don't think individual soldiers should be prosecuted. They were ordered to do a job they were not trained to do. Some generals should probably step down, enough of them anyway. Next get the police force in shape. They share part of the blame, they didn't function properly.

[rubl]

This bit written today might help explain how twisted things can be done by A & P (not the supermarket):

Robert Amsterdam - Thaskin Shinawatra Top Lawyer - Defends Democracy

BigNews.Biz

Publish Date: 2010-12-10

Recently Amsterdam & Peroff publicized that they've been hired as legal advisers to previous Prime Minister of Thailand Thaksin Shinawatra, to aid in the present contentious challenge for the revival of democracy and regulation of law in the Southeast Asian country.

"We are delighted to be retained by Prime Minister Shinawatra to be effective on this urgent matter, and we accept and acknowledge the difficult intricacy and level of sensitivity of the political turmoil unraveling Thai society," said Robert Amsterdam, founding partner of the distinguished law firm Amsterdam & Peroff. "It is our objective to examine every legal avenue to aid and support this pro-democracy activity, and urge the international community and general public not to put up with the current government's chaotic attack on peaceful protesters."

Thaksin, who served as Thailand's Prime Minister from 2001 to 2006 before being unlawfully pushed from office by way of a military coup, continues to be residing in self-exile over the past two years despite repetitive victories in democratic elections.

Protesters associated with the National United Front for Democracy in opposition to Dictatorship (UDD, or "Red Shirts"), endured 27 casualties in violent encounters with police and military in the month of April.

Amsterdam & Peroff, founded in 1980 by partners Robert Amsterdam and Dean Peroff, is an international law practice specializing in complicated multi-jurisdictional litigation, industrial arbitration, and political advocacy in challenging rising & growing markets.

The firm maintains offices in London, Washington, DC and Toronto.

Robert Amsterdam

The Homer Building

601 Thirteenth St., N.W.

Eleventh Floor South

Washington, DC 20005

I wonder why the explicit reference to April 2010. It still includes April 10th when things really got violent, but omits the conclusion May 2010 culminating in more deaths and Bangkok burning.

Anyway a follow-up report on the initial filing with the ICC is due soon. Should be interesting reading. From posts here I know the truth has to be dug up at least once a week to help counter the 'selective memory syndrome' and other 'history rewriting'

[Siam Simon]

I

The Reuters report here http://www.reuters.c...10?pageNumber=1 just quotes the same preliminary report.

If you check out the factbox it does provide more information as below

Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:48am EST

(Reuters) - Leaked state documents show Thailand's military played a larger role in the killing of civilians during political unrest inBangkok this year than officials have acknowledged.

A preliminary state probe, seen by Reuters, concluded Thai special forces positioned on an elevated railway track fired intothe grounds of a temple where several thousand protesters had taken refuge on May 19. Six people were killed there.

Investigations into another case on April 10 indicated the shot that killed Reuters cameraman Hiro Muramoto, who was coveringa protest in Bangkok's old quarter, probably came from the gun of a Thai soldier.

Below are the key findings of the two probes conducted by the Department of Special Investigation and seen by Reuters.

Officials stress the investigations are not complete.

- - - -

TEMPLE KILLINGS, MAY 19

Wat Prathum Wanaram, close to the Ratchaprasong commercial district

occupied by demonstrators for seven weeks, was designated a safe zone for civilians. Several thousand protesters sought refugethere after troops started the offensive to evict the demonstrators.

Thailand's military denied for several months that troops were stationed on the elevated Skytrain rail tracks directly in frontof the temple. The government said shadowy militants were to blame for the killings.

The key findings of the report are:

-- Six people in the temple compound were shot dead. The report gave no figures for the number of people shot and wounded.

-- Multiple witnesses heard gunfire coming from the overhead tracks and saw people in camouflage outfits pointing assault riflesat the temple.

-- One man said he saw gunmen on the Skytrain tracks firing into a medical tent and saw two people who had been shot dead.

-- One man who was hiding under a car in the temple grounds said he was shot at four or five times by men in military fatiguesstationed on the tracks before he was helped to safety by a Buddhist monk.

-- Many people fled to the temple when gunshots were heard coming from a shopping area secured by troops. One man was seen fallingto the floor and later died.

-- No civilian witnesses interviewed reported seeing gunmen inside the temple compound. One witness said he saw five or sixunknown men on the road in front of the temple, dressed in black and carrying rifles. He said they shot and killed one of his co-workers and burned his body.

-- Autopsies revealed the six people killed at the temple were all killed by high velocity bullets. Bullets of the M855 typewere found in the bodies of four of the victims. The type that killed the other two people was unknown. The autopsies showed the trajectory of three of the fatal shots came from above, or "top to bottom", and twowere classed as "bottom to top". For two of the victims, no witnesses saw them killed.

-- Military personnel interviewed in the report said special forces troops were on the railtrack and were armed with M-16 assaultrifles. They said they were equipped with M855 bullets.

-- Troops interviewed said they fired warning shots at walls and over the heads of people within the temple compound, and thatthey acted in line with the rules of engagement. They said their shots were fired around 6 p.m. Witnesses and video footage showed the fatal temple shootings took place around the same time.

-- One soldier said a gunmen was shooting at them from inside the compound and he returned fire. Another soldier said he wasinformed his seven-man team was fired at by armed men inside the temple compound.

-- One soldier said he spotted black-clad gunmen beneath the rail tracks and shot at them.

-- Troops on the Skytrain track provided cover fire for officers on the ground following a request for backup.

-- The report recommended further police investigation into the temple deaths. It concluded: "There is a reasonable amountof facts, evidence and witness accounts to believe that (three) deaths resulted from security officials' actions on duty."

- - - -

DEATH OF REUTERS CAMERAMAN HIRO MURAMOTO, APRIL 10

Muramoto, a 43-year-old Japanese cameraman working for Thomson Reuters in Tokyo, was filming clashes between red shirt demonstratorsand troops near Bangkok's Democracy Monument when he was killed by a high velocity bullet to the chest.

The Thai authorities have come under pressure from Japan to provide details about how Muramoto was killed and only recentlyacknowledged he may have been shot by security forces.

The key findings of the report are:

-- Police at the scene said a heated standoff with hundreds of protesters in darkness led to troops firing into the air followedby bursts of shooting and sporadic blasts. Chaos ensued. Many people were injured and sent to hospital.

-- A soldier, who was slightly wounded, said he was informed troops had come under fire from M-79 grenades and many were hurtby shrapnel. Senior officers held a meeting to plan a retreat and an explosive landed close to them, killing one soldier and the commanding officer. The soldier said retreating troops were attacked with grenades and by protesterswith wooden staves and rocks. He said he had seen Muramoto filming that night, but did not specify a time.

-- A demonstrator saw Muramoto move away from the troops toward where protesters were stood, close to a school. He saw "aflash from a gun barrel of a soldier", then watched Muramoto, who was among the demonstrators, fall after he was shot while filming the troops from afar. He said he did not know who killed him.

-- One man standing within a meter of Muramoto saw a soldier pointing a rifle in his direction. He turned around and saw thejournalist fall backwards onto the pavement while holding a large camera. He carried Muramoto to a nearby rescue vehicle and said he did not know from where exactly the bullet that entered the victim's chest was fired. However,it did not come from the direction of demonstrators.

-- Multiple witnesses saw Muramoto carried away by protesters and placed in a rescue truck. One said the clash ended soon after,when protesters called on troops to stop shooting, because people had been killed.

-- The report concluded: "There is a reasonable amount of facts and evidence to believe that the death of Hiro was dueto an act of the security forces who said they were acting according to official duty."

(Compiled by Bangkok Newsroom; Editing by Andrew Marshall)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these reports suggest things really got out of hand on the 10th of April. Some have said 'if the army hadn't moved in nothing would have happened', but that's like sticking your head in the sand. The army reacted on violence rather starting it. The deaths on the 19th of May were the accumulation of violence started on the 10th of April.

This being Thailand it's difficult to get anyone to admit 'I was wrong'. It shouldn't surprise anyone the army has a problem with that. Lots of armies elsewhere have a problem with that, check wikileaks if you still can. In the end the army should owe up to their guilt, although I don't think individual soldiers should be prosecuted. They were ordered to do a job they were not trained to do. Some generals should probably step down, enough of them anyway. Next get the police force in shape. They share part of the blame, they didn't function properly.

"The army reacted on violence rather than starting it" 'history rewriting' indeed. Still, it helps divert attention from the rather annoying news that the government's own investigation is pointing the finger at the Army over some of the temple deaths. I'm sure this story will become very boring very quickly. Btw, has anyone else seen that series of photographs from Central World taken on May 19? Very strange.

[GeorgeO]

The author suggests the PM should solve most of Thailand's problems overnight without suggesting how that may be done. Perhaps he could borrow Harry Potter's wand.

As for the hillbilly, may I suggest that most of your problems are currency, or lack of it, related, and that is the fault of your own country not Thailand. The little Oz dollar, once referred to as the Pacific Peso, is doing fine, thank you very much, and I have no problems with local pricing, or accessing the internet.

I can even afford to buy a visa, which is why border run entries were reduced to 15 days, to encourage you to do the same. I find it quite reasonable that any country should know who is living within their borders, and not grant carte blanche entry to anybody who can afford to get to a border once a month

As for southern tourism, how many tourists have been shot or otherwise affected. I regularly visit Had Yai, Songkla, Satun and even Sungai Kolok (you can cross the border there, and BUY a visa), by bike, and never had the slightest problem.

A most admirable reponse to a pile of trash from the Nation, and a very ill-considered post by the "hillbilly". Both the reporter and the hillbilly seem to think the grass is always greener (God knows where...).

I have been here long enough to know that things have the potential to be much improved under PM Abhisit than they have been for many a year (and please refrain from taking my sign-up date with TV as an indicator of my tenure in Thailand). And by that, I don't mean for me, johnny foreigner, but for citizens of Thailand.

KhunT apparently believed that extrajudicial killings were justifiable; to him, the end justified the means. Thus, no citizen of Thailand was safe under his style of governance.

The Nation reporter apparently believes that KhunT has a point to make. I would dearly love to see him appear before the Commission, and see how he struggles with the questions on human rights issues as they pertain to the South of Thailand. He certainly shouldn't be expected to have anything to say about the riotous behavior of his Red Army in Bangkok since he was never here during any of the uprising that he incited (and continued to fuel with his daily transmissions) ... nor were his family. All of them safely tucked away while he used the lives of his misguided followers to make a point. Exactly what his point was escapes me (please, don't bother me with the details).

PM Abhisit, if given the opportunity, will certainly ensure that his house is in order, but that will require an end to all of these petty cooked-up charges against him by the inept politicians in the various parties that oppose him. If we can see an end to all of these distractions, this man has the ability to put Thailand on track and rid the country of the blight of corruption, greed and self-serving behavior, which, by the way, despite the best efforts of this inept bunch, the current PM has been shown to have risen above.

If the Nation can't think of anything better to report, then maybe they should consider taking page 3 of the Sun mewspaper and using that as their cover page. As for "hillbilly", take the advice of OzMick, get a real presence here in Thailand, and stop blaming others for your own situation!

Edited December 11, 2010 by GeorgeO

[SomTumTiger]

The author suggests the PM should solve most of Thailand's problems overnight without suggesting how that may be done. Perhaps he could borrow Harry Potter's wand.

As for the hillbilly, may I suggest that most of your problems are currency, or lack of it, related, and that is the fault of your own country not Thailand. The little Oz dollar, once referred to as the Pacific Peso, is doing fine, thank you very much, and I have no problems with local pricing, or accessing the internet.

I can even afford to buy a visa, which is why border run entries were reduced to 15 days, to encourage you to do the same. I find it quite reasonable that any country should know who is living within their borders, and not grant carte blanche entry to anybody who can afford to get to a border once a month

As for southern tourism, how many tourists have been shot or otherwise affected. I regularly visit Had Yai, Songkla, Satun and even Sungai Kolok (you can cross the border there, and BUY a visa), by bike, and never had the slightest problem.

A most admirable reponse to a pile of trash from the Nation, and a very ill-considered post by the "hillbilly". Both the reporter and the hillbilly seem to think the grass is always greener (God knows where...).

I have been here long enough to know that things have the potential to be much improved under PM Abhisit than they have been for many a year (and please refrain from taking my sign-up date with TV as an indicator of my tenure in Thailand). And by that, I don't mean for me, johnny foreigner, but for citizens of Thailand.

KhunT apparently believed that extrajudicial killings were justifiable; to him, the end justified the means. Thus, no citizen of Thailand was safe under his style of governance.

The Nation reporter apparently believes that KhunT has a point to make. I would dearly love to see him appear before the Commission, and see how he struggles with the questions on human rights issues as they pertain to the South of Thailand. He certainly shouldn't be expected to have anything to say about the riotous behavior of his Red Army in Bangkok since he was never here during any of the uprising that he incited (and continued to fuel with his daily transmissions) ... nor were his family. All of them safely tucked away while he used the lives of his misguided followers to make a point. Exactly what his point was escapes me (please, don't bother me with the details).

PM Abhisit, if given the opportunity, will certainly ensure that his house is in order, but that will require an end to all of these petty cooked-up charges against him by the inept politicians in the various parties that oppose him. If we can see an end to all of these distractions, this man has the ability to put Thailand on track and rid the country of the blight of corruption, greed and self-serving behavior, which, by the way, despite the best efforts of this inept bunch, the current PM has been shown to have risen above.

If the Nation can't think of anything better to report, then maybe they should consider taking page 3 of the Sun mewspaper and using that as their cover page. As for "hillbilly", take the advice of OzMick, get a real presence here in Thailand, and stop blaming others for your own situation!

"Like"

[jayjay0]

Of course things have improved greatly for farang since Mr Abhasit's been in power..........

Tell us 1 thing that has improved for us farangs please?

1. Is it the great rule that farang can only enter Thailand for 15 days now instead of the 30 days before?
2. Is it that farangs are rotting in Thai jails like un-wanted dogs while the government worries about where Thaxsin is going to be next?
3. Is it that Abhasit has made the south a great place for tourists to visit now if they want to get shot and killed?
4. Is it that Tourism has become the the lowest issue on his mind right now (attracting tourists)
5. Is it because of the Media and website blockages that most of us Foreigners rely on?
6. Is it because the Abhisit government has brung Thailand into a 3rd world state again so that there is now a reccession and the only way the Thai's make up for the loss of money now is by double charging us?

Tell us how this wonderful government has made it better please?

Well I can't really say that conditions have changed under Abhist's rule more like changed by the world economy.

:jap:

Was thinking about it. Wasn't it the previous government that had brought in the 15 day renewal visa requirement.

[rubl]

I

The Reuters report here http://www.reuters.c...10?pageNumber=1 just quotes the same preliminary report.

If you check out the factbox it does provide more information as below

... Reuters part removed, too long. Read phiphidon's original post if you want. ...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but these reports suggest things really got out of hand on the 10th of April. Some have said 'if the army hadn't moved in nothing would have happened', but that's like sticking your head in the sand. The army reacted on violence rather starting it. The deaths on the 19th of May were the accumulation of violence started on the 10th of April.

This being Thailand it's difficult to get anyone to admit 'I was wrong'. It shouldn't surprise anyone the army has a problem with that. Lots of armies elsewhere have a problem with that, check wikileaks if you still can. In the end the army should owe up to their guilt, although I don't think individual soldiers should be prosecuted. They were ordered to do a job they were not trained to do. Some generals should probably step down, enough of them anyway. Next get the police force in shape. They share part of the blame, they didn't function properly.

"The army reacted on violence rather than starting it" 'history rewriting' indeed. Still, it helps divert attention from the rather annoying news that the government's own investigation is pointing the finger at the Army over some of the temple deaths. I'm sure this story will become very boring very quickly. Btw, has anyone else seen that series of photographs from Central World taken on May 19? Very strange.

I think you stopped reading my post at the first sentence you didn't like. That diverts from my second paragraph which maybe you also wouldn't like. Reminds me of the discussion we had a while ago (on the 7th this month I think, very apt title 'a knife to everyone's back' ).

For those who don't know the intricate details maybe just start here

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/04/unrest_in_thailand.html

As for photographs from Centralworld taken on May 19th, may be you mean this one?

Edited December 11, 2010 by rubl