I just find it depressing, having been told too many times by masseurs/hairdressers/manicurists etc. how their husbands died in a motorbike accident. (*1)

Obviously lots of men do die in motorbike accidents - but its a bit unlikely that I've been unlucky enough to have met most of the widows!

Which means..... that I do not believe any of them and (inwardly) get annoyed that they think I'm that stupid.

The unfortunate part of it is that the odd one may well have lost their husband in a motorbike accident and need the extra tip.

Don't get offended by their (very correct) generalisation / assumption that you are stupid. It's not intended to be an offence; you can almost treat it as an indirect compliment. You're far brighter than all the many men who created the generalisation that Western men are gullible suckers. You should smile, chuffed at your clear intellectual superiority. At which point, you will no doubt subject them to an almost identical generalisation - potentially far more insulting, however (if they actually were widowed in such tragic circumstances).

But eh, they wouldn't get offended. You certainly shouldn't.

I love preconceptions and mistaken assumptions.

Thanks very much

SC

Whenever I've heard such tales of woe (*1) I generally express sympathy, but luckily I am slow-witted and thick-skinned, so unless it is accompanied by "and therefore I nedd 100 baht extra tip" I would never make that extrapolation for myself. My favourite was the 6,000 baht for a taxi back to Isaan for grandmother's funeral because she had missed the last bus; my least favourite is buying jewelery, since the pawn value is probably much less than the shop price.

to come back to the topic,

I think there is a category of lie which could be called the "obvious lie".

Thais resort to it to answer any question they don't to answer truthfully.

Then comes a totally daft answer, often with a smile and nod.

I guess such obvious lies are easier to detect for Thais than for farangs.

Sometimes Thais ask questions they shouldn't ask, like "are you rich".

Then reply that you are so rich you didn't pay your plane ticket because you own the airline!

Usually cracks them up and they get the message, even if that lie was a little too obvious ;-)

I generally have no trouble with lies from Thais.

In my experience, the corporate half-truths, outright lies and "image preservation" measures were much worse when I was still working in a big western company.

Boss: Why were you late?

Employee: Oh traffic, mak, mak.

Boss: You just told me yesterday that you take the BTS to work

Employee: Blank stare.

Have many examples of that, but the one that really irks is when you get a bigger lie to cover up the small one. Apologies for this being quite lengthy, but it needs detail.

A few weeks ago my dog Joe was semi-asleep on the pavement outside the bar, on the dividing line between it and the bar next door. I was busy playing pool I think when the bar owner rushes in saying that Joe had bitten someone, I went for a look of course. Next door the Pepsi delivery man was sitting on a table with one of his trouser legs rolled up, half way up his shin was a tiny amount of blood, a 'don't do that again warning snap' and not a 'I'm going to rip your leg off and eat it in-front of you bite'

I explained to the bar owner and the Pepsi man by proxy that he must have done something wrong as Joe would spend hours a day in that position with hundreds of people walking around him and never even a snarl at anyone for years (other dogs yes, people no).... but no, the Pepsi man was adamant that he didn't do anything and Joe just bit him for no reason.

I returned to get my mobile and on entering the bar where I had been, two farangs who were sitting close to the outside asked me what was going on, so I told them. They both told me what I had already guessed. Joe was where he was the last time I saw him and the Pepsi man had booted him quite hard when walking past him....... aha.

I went back next door with this information ..... now it would have been very easy to get out of this for the Pepsi man. If he had said that he had been carrying a crate and tripped over Joe I would have responded with "Ok, accident, you scare dog by accident, he has had all his shots, and he isn't a bad dog, but here is a hundred baht for the hospital to take care of your gaping wound"

Did he do that, no, he went into a wild rant about 'farangs not see, farangs cannot see'.... when I pointed out the relative positions of him, the dog and the farangs and the fact that you would have to be blind to miss it he proceeded to rant on with 'dog not there, dog not there' ..... so I asked him where the dog was and he pointed to a spot some twenty feet up the road..... so I explained to him that yes if Joe was there the farangs would not be able to see him, but I asked him how if he was here 'pointing left, and the dog was there 'pointing way right' how did the dog manage to bite him from twenty feet away.

Blank stare.

I have also had this your "Dog has bit someone" scam,with ten Thai witnesses,and when the person revealed their leg,the skin was bloodless and unbleamished.

Collective lying? in the extreme,especially as I was observing everything,for the whole hour in question.

I get bamboozled pretty routinely.

One day I might stop reacting with slack-jawed shock.

The sheer scale of some (surely story-boarded and scripted over multiple volumes) deceit efforts has floored me, on occasion. One has to admire their sheer ambition, if nothing else.

I, like the first op that said he grew up learning that lieing is wrong and that was so exact to my upbringing. But has gotten me into

many troubles. My father never tolerated lying and I also can not understand the extent of some that do and some that lie all the time and sometimes for no reason as it has just become a habit.

I moved to Thailand thinking and wanting anew life and learn about the culture and people. I married a Thai lady and soon found that I had been lied to about some serious matters etc. I was lied to about loaning money and when I would be paid back etc. I fast learned there is no such thing as a loan in Thailand. It is a gift and the lie was the means to get the "loan" This was from the brother inlaw. Never has a satang been mentioned about paying it back nor a payment arrangment. This was my first introduction to Thai culture(at least with her family) to keep things clear, I am sure there are honest Thai's somewhere. My next experience was the bribing and the lies to get the bribe and then I get the papers I need from the Immigration official no less.

My upbringing has left me with a sense of bewilderment on how a society accepts this as normal behavior. I left Thailand 7 months ago and was readying to return after my business in the US, My wife was supposedly staying at her parents home until I returned. I knew she had stayed in Bkk which to me was no problem because she has a daughter that lives there at her x's home. As I was readying to return as soon as I could(6 weeks) I kept asking her, "are you sure you are at your parents home" and the answer each time was yes of course. Now, I knew for a fact she was staying in Bkk because I checked on where the money I had sent to her was picked up...Bangkok...ok, I knew she was lying. This is my new wife of 3 months. Now, I asked her many times(at least 10) and the answer was always a lie even when I said "are you sure you wouldn't lie to me" and she said no she is in in her other town. After the 10th lie(literally) I have yet to return as I will not be with a wife that I an not trust. Her answer to me was she didn't want to upset me is the reason she lied. I told her I didn't care if she stayed in Bkk with her daughter or at her other province with her parents. The lie was more upsetting than where she was staying. Now, this gives rise to what else she is capable oflying about. I have found many since and they are just said to get ot do what it is that she wants with no guilt of lying to her husband.

I said to her, if everryone lies, how can anyone trust anyone. If I go boink the neighbor lady and come home and tell you I was at the office, is that ok?....because telling you that would not upset you. I was trying to show trust is an important part of a marriage or any relationship.....will you trust me if you catch me lying to you all the time? ...

my thoughts are that if you can't trust who and what you are with what is the relationship built on?...I know...it's money and support. But if you keep losing your support and source of living from no trust and lies, what is the point?...Personaly I have lost any trust or closeness that I had thought we had together and I have not rerturned. I have no idea what she is capable of and no idea of when or what the next lie will be. I always gave my best and was generrous as i could be and even more than I should have been. If no one apreciates an honest generous decent looking and good husband then I am outa there.,.. I just have decided it is a complete waste of time and hard earned money. If I am maried I expect a friend/love as well and someone that stands beside me and not one that stands beside my wallet and thinks of me as interchangable as easy as that.

I know now that An American woman is at least smeone that will accept you as you are and not think of you as a non entity ATM machine along with her family and always an outsider. If someone can look me in the eye as if nothing happened after completly ripping me off and everything is ok....something is wrong with that picture. What am even doing there?....what for, why?....

Well, now she can't figure out why I am not back yet and is all angry and I am hearing the sob storys of how hard it is for her where she's at with not enough money.....ohhh wellll!!......a falng is not a non person that is just there to make thier life better from all your hard earned dollars that you worked all your life to finally enjoy. ...baby, get a job.......or don't lie and keep what you have that is good!

I won't go slowly into my golden years in a society that is built on deciet and lies......where were the parents at, while these girls were growing up? who tought the values? who tought honest? who taught, charactor?......of course there are liars in all countrys but let's face the truth, Thailand is more prevalent by a high high percentage ....very highest!...It's just not for me!..

Now, I have to put this in so this doesn't sound like I am puting down a whole country. I know there are some honest people there! But I didn't find em....could be just my experience though

Her answer to me was she didn't want to upset me is the reason she lied.

Oh.

You're very wise to keep your distance. Whenever you are told that you or your feelings / emotions / well-being was the motivator for a discrepancy; be afraid. Be very afraid.

I would be stunned if the lie was not a pretty huge one.

Same goes for any attempt to make your feel 'silly' or 'paranoid' or somehow 'irrational' when you query a seemingly harmless but nonetheless existent discrepancy. If anyone starts responding in that vein, my (professional) advice is: Run. As fast as you can.

Don't look back. Lot's wife got off easy compared to what you might endure if you make a similar mistake.

Girlfriend to dj

does my backside look big in this new dress?

dj

I am afraid so, yes

Outcome: dj is looking for new girlfriend

Mossfinn - would it be possible to make your avatar LESS entertaining, so I can claw some of my life back? Your dialogue should have a thread of its own!

Girlfriend to dj

does my backside look big in this new dress?

dj

I am afraid so, yes

Outcome: dj is looking for new girlfriend

but, his new girlfriend won't have a fat backside, so deejah is still a WINNA...

:rofl:

Daewoo

I know now that An American woman is at least smeone that will accept you as you are and not think of you as a non entity ATM machine along with her family and always an outsider. If someone can look me in the eye as if nothing happened after completly ripping me off and everything is ok....something is wrong with that picture. What am even doing there?....what for, why?....

Sorry to hear your story, much sympathy (if you had asked many of us would all have said never sent money when out of country)

I'm pretty sure an American woman could lie just as well, and I know an English woman who did, and F1 knows an English man who did, etc., etc.

People in relationships often tell lies to their 'loved ones'.

I've found the best thing to do is position yourself so that any lies don't really matter. Don't think too much and just have a good time.

Girlfriend to dj

does my backside look big in this new dress?

dj

I am afraid so, yes

Outcome: dj is looking for new girlfriend

Too bad you've never dated a black girl; I like big butts and I can't deny.......

I lie. Everyone lies. Yet I consider myself an honest person.

I probably consider myself honest as I rarely if ever lie about "important" things, or if I am confronted with a direct question which has any real ramifications. But I do lie when I think there are no ramifications. Last night, I tried a French restaurant. The food was barely adequate and the service glacial. When I left, the hostess asked me if everything was fine, and I just told her yes, it was. I could have been honest, I suppose, but frankly, I just wanted to leave.

But ask me if I screwed up at work, if I am dating anyone else, where am I going, etc., and you will probably get the truth.

Having written the above, I really don't see Thais lying any more or any less than people from other nationalities. My Thai friends seem more very open, in fact, to admit their mistakes. I often get an embarrassed mea culpa-type reaction instead of any attempt at prevarication. I have found both lying and honesty around the world, and in my experience, Thais are pretty much in the norm on that.

Her answer to me was she didn't want to upset me is the reason she lied.

Oh.

You're very wise to keep your distance. Whenever you are told that you or your feelings / emotions / well-being was the motivator for a discrepancy; be afraid. Be very afraid.

I would be stunned if the lie was not a pretty huge one.

Same goes for any attempt to make your feel 'silly' or 'paranoid' or somehow 'irrational' when you query a seemingly harmless but nonetheless existent discrepancy. If anyone starts responding in that vein, my (professional) advice is: Run. As fast as you can.

Don't look back. Lot's wife got off easy compared to what you might endure if you make a similar mistake.

You absolutely right. This is the reason I haven't returned. When you give a minimum of 10 chances to say the truth and it just doesn;'t come. Then there is a reason the lie is there. I think she was staying with her x and daughter and I was going to be the income for the both. It' happens alot more than people think......you right!...Iran..........now when she calls and I lie and she gets angry. I just tell her I didn't want to upset you. .....she didn't like it...hmmm......what goes around comes around,....I just told her I was learning to be more "Thai"....

Lies are for those who cannot face the realities of life or their own shortcomings. Unfortunately that means most of us at one time or another. It is a cruel world that we live in and at times self preservation demands that we go along with an untruth or subterfuge. It is worth being aware that a whistle blower rarely escapes without retribution from some quarter.

All my Thai family know better than to lie to me. 'Because I want you to be happy' does not wash and they now understand that lies make me very unhappy. One lie leads to another until nobody can remember where the truth lies. If they lie then I cannot trust them and they have lost face with me. Furthermore the supply of 'goodies' comes to an abrupt end.

there used to be a chap here posting under the name, maigo6. shortly after i figured out the meaning he left. his take on this would have been worth a read.

Oh I remember him.

Had a few "run ins" with him.

All foreigners in Thailand were fat, ugly, and smelly (according to him).

Still, I enjoyed the juicy discussions we had.

Anyhow,

back to subject.

The lies.

Not particularly a Thai thing.

A few examples:

Philippines:

Number one lie: "I have been sooo busy".

USA: My salary is (huge exaggerated number), and my job is (always a very fancy title).

Norway: No doubt Norway is the best country to live in, in the world.

England: We have the best football team inthe world. We are just unlucky with our coaches.

I know now that An American woman is at least smeone that will accept you as you are and not think of you as a non entity ATM machine along with her family and always an outsider. If someone can look me in the eye as if nothing happened after completly ripping me off and everything is ok....something is wrong with that picture. What am even doing there?....what for, why?....

Sorry to hear your story, much sympathy (if you had asked many of us would all have said never sent money when out of country)

I'm pretty sure an American woman could lie just as well, and I know an English woman who did, and F1 knows an English man who did, etc., etc.

People in relationships often tell lies to their 'loved ones'.

I've found the best thing to do is position yourself so that any lies don't really matter. Don't think too much and just have a good time.

It never ceases to amaze me how when you are in the process of catching a girl lieing she will respond with "you think to much" or "you speak to much".

Suddenly she becomes even more angry than the person who she lied to should be.

If you actually have evidence and present it to them you had better run else you risk a knife in the abdomen.

England: We have the best football team in the world. We are just unlucky with our coaches.

Not strictly true, as lying, cheating foreigners have also adversely affected our fortunes.

Being a man of the cloth , The second commandment says, "thow shalt not lie". i think unless thats a lie.

and speaking of persons of the cloth, this lady must be part Thai

I was only trying to help

Any fool can tell the truth, but it requires a man of some sense to know how to lie well.

Samuel Butler (1835 - 1902)

Girlfriend to dj

does my backside look big in this new dress?

dj

I am afraid so, yes

Outcome: dj is looking for new girlfriend

my ex put it another way; Does this dress make me look fat?

my response; No, your fat makes you look fat.

outcome; divorced and remarried to a slender Thai

And tourism is gonna rise 500% . . .

Let's face it, if you wanted facts you'd date an encyclopaedia

I've got to remember that line... I love it.

Knowing how humanity works I've come to realize that there are ALWAYS two ways to say the same thing. One answer is hurtful and the other can be "creative" and not offend the other person. Never corner a dangerous adversary. Always give them a chance to retreat.

Any fool can tell the truth, but it requires a man of some sense to know how to lie well.

Samuel Butler (1835 - 1902)

:lol:

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

I was once scheduled to meet my girlfriend at a restaurant for dinner. In classic Thai fashion she showed up a full TWO hours late, after numerous text messages saying she would be there in 15 minutes. Also in Thai fashion she was towing her friend Nok. Both of them work as receptionists in my building.

She immediately launched into a story of how she and Nok went to YipYap (I couldn't say the Thai name if I tried) in the outskirts of Bangkok to meet some friends, and the traffic was sooooo bad coming back. I looked at Nok and smiled. Nok just sat silent with that blank stare and let my darling continue. I asked "Why didn't you just say that you were stuck in traffic in your text? I would have left and come back, or we could have met somewhere else later" She gave the traditional Thai reply of "another lie, some bullshit and more lies"

While we were playing this game I kept smiling at Nok who sat silent with the blank stare. After about 5 minutes of back and forth, letting her dig the hole deeper and deeper, I finally asked "So I guess Nok forgot to tell you that she was still working the desk when I left for the restaurant, I talked to her for 5 minutes, and she wasn't off shift for another hour after that? So I am confused about how she went to YipYap with you when she was working all day?"

I got the blank stare from both of them. I laughed.

The thing is we are quick to assume a lie is covering something nefarious. Thai women are so conditioned by Thai men to sneak and lie to get everything, that they often lie about nothing. It is just as likely she was at the salon, shopping, or eating SomTam with friends bragging about how much gold she has. She could easily have been worried I would be angry that she spent money, or didn't ask my permission (which drives me nuts, and I constantly tell her she doesn't need to do). I have a friend who says "The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, the longest distance between two points is a Thai woman"

To this day whenever my girlfriend is obviously lying I just say "Okay, so you're going to YipYap with Nok?" My point is made, she blushes, and wanders off to do whatever it is Thai women do when they're not asking you for money.

The cheque is in the post.

I wasn't drunk. I'm teetotal (in spite of all evidence to the contrary).

Of course one doesn't have to lie to achieve a desired end. One of the employees in my department had some very unsavoury habits and had made himself very unpopular. Although his work performance was satisfactory I decided to move him on. During an interview he said that he was no longer happy and was looking for another position. I did not want to lose him until it suited me so I told him that I was considering advancing him to a newly created position which would attract a salary rise. After finding a suitable replacement I then told him that I had reconsidered. No new position, no more extra money. Two hours later I had his resignation on my desk. Two days later the new guy started. His own self interest had won the day.

There are lies and then there's lies. I have found some of the whoppers told to me here in Thailand would be worthy of Oscar, (best stand-up) this is one of my favorites at the moment.

While at my friends house one evening a little wail back, an ex-employee of my friend turned up, a young Thai kid, he is likable sort of bloke. Well we sat and talked, my friend asked him what he was doing now for work; I slowly began to wish he never asked. He told us how he was now a business man, he was now a money lender, business was very good, he went into great detail about all the workings of the trade and how he was helping the community by lending money, all at a small and modest fee. Great we said! Fantastic it good to see you doing so well. Well we talked and drank for another hour or so then this Thai lad said he had to go, he also at this point asked if one of us could loan him 500 Baht, as he hasn't got any money, and we would get it back in a few days!!!

I said; "Why do you need to borrow money, you say your business is going so well" He then says bold as brass……."You not understand my business, business too good! I no have money….I lend all my money out, I need 500 Baht" My friend and I gave him 100 Baht each, just for entertainment value. We haven't seen him since.

Bagwan

You forgot;

The transport is just around the next bend!

I was once scheduled to meet my girlfriend at a restaurant for dinner. In classic Thai fashion she showed up a full TWO hours late, after numerous text messages saying she would be there in 15 minutes. Also in Thai fashion she was towing her friend Nok. Both of them work as receptionists in my building.

She immediately launched into a story of how she and Nok went to YipYap (I couldn't say the Thai name if I tried) in the outskirts of Bangkok to meet some friends, and the traffic was sooooo bad coming back. I looked at Nok and smiled. Nok just sat silent with that blank stare and let my darling continue. I asked "Why didn't you just say that you were stuck in traffic in your text? I would have left and come back, or we could have met somewhere else later" She gave the traditional Thai reply of "another lie, some bullshit and more lies"

While we were playing this game I kept smiling at Nok who sat silent with the blank stare. After about 5 minutes of back and forth, letting her dig the hole deeper and deeper, I finally asked "So I guess Nok forgot to tell you that she was still working the desk when I left for the restaurant, I talked to her for 5 minutes, and she wasn't off shift for another hour after that? So I am confused about how she went to YipYap with you when she was working all day?"

I got the blank stare from both of them. I laughed.

The thing is we are quick to assume a lie is covering something nefarious. Thai women are so conditioned by Thai men to sneak and lie to get everything, that they often lie about nothing. It is just as likely she was at the salon, shopping, or eating SomTam with friends bragging about how much gold she has. She could easily have been worried I would be angry that she spent money, or didn't ask my permission (which drives me nuts, and I constantly tell her she doesn't need to do). I have a friend who says "The shortest distance between two points is a straight line, the longest distance between two points is a Thai woman"

To this day whenever my girlfriend is obviously lying I just say "Okay, so you're going to YipYap with Nok?" My point is made, she blushes, and wanders off to do whatever it is Thai women do when they're not asking you for money.

Hi BOS2BKK, great post! Very true about Thai women and straight lines.

I have a wise friend as well who if asked to sum up the directness of Thai communication would say; It’s like one very angry Thai guy go’s to his next door neighbour’s, house to complain that his neighbour’s dog keeps crapping in his garden. They will talk for hours, eventually the guy will come back home, with even more pent up anger having not once mentioned the word DOG all evening! Ever wonder why when a Thai loses the plot………..He really loses it!

Great stories and a funny topic. Thanks folks. If you don't let yourself get upset or make any unbreakable plans then go with the flow... You never know where it's going to take you. I'm constantly amazed how things just work out for me. When someone breaks a so called "date" there always seems to be an alternative waiting in the wings. Maybe I'm just lucky, but if you let life life just take you along for the ride it can be a lovely trip.

If you don't let yourself get upset or make any unbreakable plans then go with the flow... You never know where it's going to take you.

Maybe I'm just lucky, but if you let life life just take you along for the ride it can be a lovely trip.

I hope your good luck continues, Ian. However, I feel it's time to cast a pall over this light-hearted treatment of what is really a far darker topic than the tone of this thread suggests .

The simple truth is that 95% of lies / deceit / omission / deflection is not intended to serve (or can be expected to result in) some light-hearted, harmless purpose. I don't really buy into the whole "lying for good" train of thought, myself. You're playing with fire and, quite frankly, it's used far too often to justify lies which serve the liar's interests and not the interests of those he or she is deceiving.

When deception gets mixed in with romance, things can get extremely ugly extremely fast. Harking back to our recent conversation about 'winners' Ian, a lifetime ago in my youth, two close friends of mine who were both undeniably "Winners" (on the face of it, in any case) killed themselves months apart when we were all in our early 20's (one found swinging at the end of a lanyard in his officer's quarters, the other found crumpled in a public park with the half-digested remains of hundreds of sleeping tablets in his digestive system).

All laissez faire Gallic shrugging and cavalier sentiment aside, whilst only a negligible fraction of a percent of us will ever actually feel the pain of betrayal at levels which compel us to actually draw down the curtains like they did....I do not believe any of us (if we were being honest) are oblivious to at least a general idea of how potentially agonising and traumatic these things can actually be. My two friends were not the first to be brought down by a maliciously selfish 'better' half, and they certainly won't be the last.

Lies can - and do - kill, routinely. I'm all for light-heartedness, but in this country with the nature of the unique variables in play, I daresay the true levels of suffering wrought by those who are brought up to believe lying is an acceptable alternative to having dignity and character...is on a scale...

eh, I think most would know what I'm talking about...

Lies can - and do - kill, routinely. I'm all for light-heartedness, but in this country with the nature of the unique variables in play, I daresay the true levels of suffering wrought by those who are brought up to believe lying is an acceptable alternative to having dignity and character...is on a scale...

eh, I think most would know what I'm talking about...

In the western world what you say can be true, mainly due to the scarcity value of the product they are pushing, and the financial investment you made to get your hands on said product..

But over here, 'woe is me my heart is broken what shall i do ........... oh oh that girl over there just smiled at me, did you see that?'

It's just not that hard to get it over here get over it here!

In the western world what you say can be true, mainly due to the scarcity value of the product they are pushing, and the financial investment you made to get your hands on said product..

But over here, 'woe is me my heart is broken what shall i do ........... oh oh that girl over there just smiled at me, did you see that?'

It's just not that hard to get it over here get over it here!

Wow. You're a lucky fellow.

But you most certainly aren't even remotely close to understanding the nature of the pain that compelled my friend (who was indecently good-looking [nohomo], captained the 1st XV at uni, not brilliantly academic but no slouch by any means, universally popular and a recently commissioned Duntroon graduate) to suddenly just decide one day he would hang himself.

You can rest assured if you think it's because he found it hard to "get it", you most certainly do not. With no facetiousness, are you 'avin a larf or are you serious? If serious, I think I'm a bit envious, and I'm not being trite.

If you're confused, the simple fact is that "it" is not what most of us are looking for. At least not since high school...snicker. Hmm, I suspect you get the last snicker actually...