Punish The Parents To Set An Example On Law And Order In Thailand

[shunima]

Why do you guys keep saying that she had no license? She was issued a drivers license.

Must have been after the accident as it clearly states in the Nation she was unlicensed and underage.

And well boy, we all must be happy that we have such a reliable resource for our information. Every country should have its own "The Nation" as the spearhead of investigative journalism!

Suppose the underage young woman was stopped 10 mins PRIOR to the incident, police check- asked for her licence ( does have, but not supposed to have) or just not have...............and she had to pay T money.............she would have been allowed to drive on and have the said mishap ???????????????????????????

possible scenario...

[lannarebirth]

Are you implying that the parents were unaware that their daughter was driving their car on the speedy express way? First of all, where did she get the keys from (maybe she had a spare set made up secretly)? where was she going? (her parents were in the dark about her driving their beloved car, let alone across town on this manic highway to hell that Bankok can be)??!!! and finally that she must have got into the car several times without her parents knowing (on her own) and learnt how to drive (at speed apparently)

Don't rule out that the parents may not have known. When I was still at school, one of my classmates used to take his mother's car out at night without her knowing. He and another classmate of ours would drive it around and around the block. Unfortunately he pulled out in front of a car and had a nasty accident, writing off both cars. Fortunately no-one was hurt. The mother did not know he had been taking the car without her permission.

In this situation here in Bangkok, I don't think the parents have said for the record that they had allowed her to use the car, have they? If they have, I missed that bit. Maybe they knew. Maybe they didn't. But for sure, it is possible that she had taken it without their permission.

I haven't seen anything that shows that the parents approved of the girl driving that car on that night. I thought I saw some photos of the girl in front of her own vehicle (a Honda City, which she would not be legal to drive), from some months earlier.

[scorecard]

Why do you guys keep saying that she had no license? She was issued a drivers license.

Must have been after the accident as it clearly states in the Nation she was unlicensed and underage.

And well boy, we all must be happy that we have such a reliable resource for our information. Every country should have its own "The Nation" as the spearhead of investigative journalism!

So Chunky, whats your source which proves that she has been issued with a THAI drivers licence and it was issued before the accident?

Look forward to your details.

[lannarebirth]

These articles serve nothing better than to further infuriate the educated and responsible people of Thailand, which unfortunately does not actually include any Thai's.

Thais don't really care about other peoples problems and so these articles are a complete waste of time. Nothing ever does or ever will change unless someone is making money out of it.

Get over it, accept it, something about this place keeps you here but its certainly not the driving standard, don't waste your breath or effort to think that your opinion or any newspaper is going to make a purely corrupt system and lifestyle change in any way.

You can be shot dead by a policeman(who then beats his wife to death) who never goes to Jail for it.

You can drive without a license and kill 9 people and only pay 400 baht for it.

You can order the assassination of prominent Muslim lawyers and never go to jail for it.

You can do anything you want with money and a innately corrupt legal system.

etc, etc,......

TIT

Enjoy it for what it is:)

Disagree... for the "educated" this opinion piece (or should I say journalistic masterpiece) is utterly nonsense and is taken as such. Don't forget... it's "The Nation".

You can disagree if you like shunima and the Nation piece may be just so much Bullshit but the post you're responding to is accurate in every detail whether you or I agree with it or not.

[transam]

A news paper is as good as it's reporters, bit like a credible police force, as good as it's officers.

[lannarebirth]

Following my 1st post approx 1hr ago I am back to follow up my interest and make a comment I have what I call my wife and her daughter 14yrs old they both ride a motor bike the wife wears a skid lid all the time the young wears hers until she is out of my sight

when I ask why she takes the skid lid off she pretends not to understand which angers me. I have now come to the conclusion that I am wasting my breath but see,ing how I have not seen many of her school chums 3/4 on a bike without skid lids and BIBs outside the school allowing this I now understand that there is not much LAW in Thailand.

As posts have stated the BIBs are only interested in TEA MONEY. In the 4yrs I have been here I have had a motorbike and car licence THAI I have only been spoken to by BIBs once and they only asked where I lived and that did not cost anything touch wood but I never ride a bike without my lid on I have known a few mates in the U/K who are now dead and seen many accidents here and that did not have to happen mostly because of what I call STUPIDITY .

As for the punishment of parents HOW can you Punish if there is no LAW

Surely you can impress upon a child there will be no more money forthcoming from you if she does not wear a helmet at all times when on a motorcycle.

[Derifo]

Most drivers here do not make use of their mirrors before changing lanes, and they also do not use the car's indicators to let the car behind or infront to know that they are changing lanes. Many drivers also do not honk their horns to warn other road users.

Indicators, mirrors and the horn are put in the car for safety purpose. Disregarding other road users often easily leads to an accident.

[Orac]

Following my 1st post approx 1hr ago I am back to follow up my interest and make a comment I have what I call my wife and her daughter 14yrs old they both ride a motor bike the wife wears a skid lid all the time the young wears hers until she is out of my sight

when I ask why she takes the skid lid off she pretends not to understand which angers me. I have now come to the conclusion that I am wasting my breath but see,ing how I have not seen many of her school chums 3/4 on a bike without skid lids and BIBs outside the school allowing this I now understand that there is not much LAW in Thailand.

As posts have stated the BIBs are only interested in TEA MONEY. In the 4yrs I have been here I have had a motorbike and car licence THAI I have only been spoken to by BIBs once and they only asked where I lived and that did not cost anything touch wood but I never ride a bike without my lid on I have known a few mates in the U/K who are now dead and seen many accidents here and that did not have to happen mostly because of what I call STUPIDITY .

As for the punishment of parents HOW can you Punish if there is no LAW

Surely you can impress upon a child there will be no more money forthcoming from you if she does not wear a helmet at all times when on a motorcycle.

I could be misreading this post and the child is on the bike with her mother though it did appear at first glance that she was riding it alone. If she is riding it alone surely he shouldn't be condoning this by saying it is ok if she is wearing a helmet.

Again, I could be wrong and stand ready to be corrected, but do you not have to be 15 to legally have a motorbike licence here???

[Derifo]

Following my 1st post approx 1hr ago I am back to follow up my interest and make a comment I have what I call my wife and her daughter 14yrs old they both ride a motor bike the wife wears a skid lid all the time the young wears hers until she is out of my sight

when I ask why she takes the skid lid off she pretends not to understand which angers me. I have now come to the conclusion that I am wasting my breath but see,ing how I have not seen many of her school chums 3/4 on a bike without skid lids and BIBs outside the school allowing this I now understand that there is not much LAW in Thailand.

As posts have stated the BIBs are only interested in TEA MONEY. In the 4yrs I have been here I have had a motorbike and car licence THAI I have only been spoken to by BIBs once and they only asked where I lived and that did not cost anything touch wood but I never ride a bike without my lid on I have known a few mates in the U/K who are now dead and seen many accidents here and that did not have to happen mostly because of what I call STUPIDITY .

As for the punishment of parents HOW can you Punish if there is no LAW

Surely you can impress upon a child there will be no more money forthcoming from you if she does not wear a helmet at all times when on a motorcycle.

Since I bought a car, I've been aguing with my wife about carrying my four year old daughter on her thing while seated on the front passenger seat of the car. We both wear seatbelts, and I've preached to her endlessly on the dangers involved, but she either gets angry ( mumbling that I don't love my daughter ), or she ignores me. We almost had an accident oneday and my daughter flew to the windscreen, but instead of blaming herself, she got angry that I slammed on the brakes too hard.

I believe these people are too hard-hearted that it's difficult to impress anything on them or to change them.

[transam]

Following my 1st post approx 1hr ago I am back to follow up my interest and make a comment I have what I call my wife and her daughter 14yrs old they both ride a motor bike the wife wears a skid lid all the time the young wears hers until she is out of my sight

when I ask why she takes the skid lid off she pretends not to understand which angers me. I have now come to the conclusion that I am wasting my breath but see,ing how I have not seen many of her school chums 3/4 on a bike without skid lids and BIBs outside the school allowing this I now understand that there is not much LAW in Thailand.

As posts have stated the BIBs are only interested in TEA MONEY. In the 4yrs I have been here I have had a motorbike and car licence THAI I have only been spoken to by BIBs once and they only asked where I lived and that did not cost anything touch wood but I never ride a bike without my lid on I have known a few mates in the U/K who are now dead and seen many accidents here and that did not have to happen mostly because of what I call STUPIDITY .

As for the punishment of parents HOW can you Punish if there is no LAW

Surely you can impress upon a child there will be no more money forthcoming from you if she does not wear a helmet at all times when on a motorcycle.

Since I bought a car, I've been aguing with my wife about carrying my four year old daughter on her thing while seated on the front passenger seat of the car. We both wear seatbelts, and I've preached to her endlessly on the dangers involved, but she either gets angry ( mumbling that I don't love my daughter ), or she ignores me. We almost had an accident oneday and my daughter flew to the windscreen, but instead of blaming herself, she got angry that I slammed on the brakes too hard.

I believe these people are too hard-hearted that it's difficult to impress anything on them or to change them.

I think most here will agree with your scenario, perhaps cos a farang must always be perfect so always at fault when a problem, even from your nearest and dearest.

[fresnoboy]

Good editorial, the family is a primary institution of socialisation, if it fails to education the children to the accepted norms, mores and laws of their society the child will be dysfunctional. This leads to anti-social behaviour in the child, which are carried through to adulthood. However, its not the only primary institution of socialisation, there is also the media, education system, peers and government. Should they also be held accountable and punished if an individual behaves in an anti-social manner?

Yes, absolutely !

I have a suggestion that might work.

"Aversion Therapy". This concept has been the story line in a few 'sci-fi' episodes

Aah, never mind. I'll just get flamed.

[OzMick]

And whose fault was the accident? From all reports I've seen to date (except the OP in this thread), the minibus driver was more at fault than the underage driver. Was he on yaba? Drunk?

You might consider spending more time reading and less time opining.....

While the van driver may have played some contributory role here (the police comments on that subject have been very little).... the girl's role is pretty clear: she was unlicensed, and she was speeding and admitted speeding at the time of the accident, leaving aside the question of whether she was or wasn't using her mobile phone while driving...

And you want to make the van driver more responsible... based on what?

Based on the witness reports that the van driver was also speeding and cutting into other peoples' lanes!

I find it concerning that you've only commented on her speeding and having no license. As stated in my longer post above, this is uncomfortably common in this country. The aim of my post was more to highlight that this could and does happen a lot more than once a year, and yet this public lynching of the girl and her family is pretty-much unprecendented. Are her actions any more severe than those of other incidents to date? I doubt it.

What about the van driver that fell asleep at the wheel a few weeks back? He didn't have a public transport license, that made him unlicensed too - even if he did have a private license. He was speeding too. Is it only because he died that he didn't get the same treatment?

Oh and I spend plenty of time reading, thank you, possibly moreso than you given your simplified response to very little of my post. I suppose that's why I have so many questions.

You might try reading slower and comprehending. the van driver killed in the accident was a 39-yo WOMAN. SHE has had several posts to this forum supporting her safe and courteous driving, and the only "witness" reports as to speeding and unsafe lane change come from a young girl trying to extract herself from a world of <deleted>. Oh, and a uni expert who claims no contact was made between the 2 vehicles, both of which looked pretty banged up - I bet that cost a shoe box full of grey notes.

The girl is 16 and she is a thai in Thailand, so it doesn't matter a rat's anus what the law is in the US or elsewhere. As a minor she may well escape full responsibility, but adults who have aided and abetted can not. Nobody seems to mention the 18-yo sister initially reported to be in the car (false report?), or the ownership of the car. Both these parties would/should be held more responsible than the driver.

As for the van driver drunk or on drugs - nothing has come out to indicate this is true. Are you aware of Thailand's libel laws?

Edited January 4, 2011 by OzMick

[lannarebirth]

Following my 1st post approx 1hr ago I am back to follow up my interest and make a comment I have what I call my wife and her daughter 14yrs old they both ride a motor bike the wife wears a skid lid all the time the young wears hers until she is out of my sight

when I ask why she takes the skid lid off she pretends not to understand which angers me. I have now come to the conclusion that I am wasting my breath but see,ing how I have not seen many of her school chums 3/4 on a bike without skid lids and BIBs outside the school allowing this I now understand that there is not much LAW in Thailand.

As posts have stated the BIBs are only interested in TEA MONEY. In the 4yrs I have been here I have had a motorbike and car licence THAI I have only been spoken to by BIBs once and they only asked where I lived and that did not cost anything touch wood but I never ride a bike without my lid on I have known a few mates in the U/K who are now dead and seen many accidents here and that did not have to happen mostly because of what I call STUPIDITY .

As for the punishment of parents HOW can you Punish if there is no LAW

Surely you can impress upon a child there will be no more money forthcoming from you if she does not wear a helmet at all times when on a motorcycle.

Since I bought a car, I've been aguing with my wife about carrying my four year old daughter on her thing while seated on the front passenger seat of the car. We both wear seatbelts, and I've preached to her endlessly on the dangers involved, but she either gets angry ( mumbling that I don't love my daughter ), or she ignores me. We almost had an accident oneday and my daughter flew to the windscreen, but instead of blaming herself, she got angry that I slammed on the brakes too hard.

I believe these people are too hard-hearted that it's difficult to impress anything on them or to change them.

You should read pedro 001's post where his wife got reaer ended by a bus, which sent his infant child flying. It can happen at anytime for any reason and it can be anyone's fault, but the bottom line is you need to protect your child.

[shunima]

These articles serve nothing better than to further infuriate the educated and responsible people of Thailand, which unfortunately does not actually include any Thai's.

Thais don't really care about other peoples problems and so these articles are a complete waste of time. Nothing ever does or ever will change unless someone is making money out of it.

Get over it, accept it, something about this place keeps you here but its certainly not the driving standard, don't waste your breath or effort to think that your opinion or any newspaper is going to make a purely corrupt system and lifestyle change in any way.

You can be shot dead by a policeman(who then beats his wife to death) who never goes to Jail for it.

You can drive without a license and kill 9 people and only pay 400 baht for it.

You can order the assassination of prominent Muslim lawyers and never go to jail for it.

You can do anything you want with money and a innately corrupt legal system.

etc, etc,......

TIT

Enjoy it for what it is:)

Disagree... for the "educated" this opinion piece (or should I say journalistic masterpiece) is utterly nonsense and is taken as such. Don't forget... it's "The Nation".

You can disagree if you like shunima and the Nation piece may be just so much Bullshit but the post you're responding to is accurate in every detail whether you or I agree with it or not.

Error #1: "Nothing ever does or ever will change unless someone is making money out of it." Oh it does, slowly but does. Example: Bus procurement controversy in BKK. Stopped because somebody got greedy and Marc didn't like that. Risked a breakup of his coalition for that stop.

Error #2: "You can drive without a license and kill 9 people and only pay 400 baht for it." Case not closed and 400 THB won't be the end. Wait and see.

Error #3: "You can do anything you want with money and a innately corrupt legal system." That would include that you could change that system (his/her words... "anything") and that renders all other words null & void.

Boy do I need a beer right now !

Edited January 4, 2011 by shunima

[Nisa]

And whose fault was the accident? From all reports I've seen to date (except the OP in this thread), the minibus driver was more at fault than the underage driver. Was he on yaba? Drunk?

You might consider spending more time reading and less time opining.....

While the van driver may have played some contributory role here (the police comments on that subject have been very little).... the girl's role is pretty clear: she was unlicensed, and she was speeding and admitted speeding at the time of the accident, leaving aside the question of whether she was or wasn't using her mobile phone while driving...

And you want to make the van driver more responsible... based on what?

Based on the witness reports that the van driver was also speeding and cutting into other peoples' lanes!

I find it concerning that you've only commented on her speeding and having no license. As stated in my longer post above, this is uncomfortably common in this country. The aim of my post was more to highlight that this could and does happen a lot more than once a year, and yet this public lynching of the girl and her family is pretty-much unprecendented. Are her actions any more severe than those of other incidents to date? I doubt it.

What about the van driver that fell asleep at the wheel a few weeks back? He didn't have a public transport license, that made him unlicensed too - even if he did have a private license. He was speeding too. Is it only because he died that he didn't get the same treatment?

Oh and I spend plenty of time reading, thank you, possibly moreso than you given your simplified response to very little of my post. I suppose that's why I have so many questions.

You might try reading slower and comprehending. the van driver killed in the accident was a 39-yo WOMAN. SHE has had several posts to this forum supporting her safe and courteous driving, and the only "witness" reports as to speeding and unsafe lane change come from a young girl trying to extract herself from a world of <deleted>. Oh, and a uni expert who claims no contact was made between the 2 vehicles, both of which looked pretty banged up - I bet that cost a shoe box full of grey notes.

The girl is 16 and she is a thai in Thailand, so it doesn't matter a rat's anus what the law is in the US or elsewhere. As a minor she may well escape full responsibility, but adults who have aided and abetted can not. Nobody seems to mention the 18-yo sister initially reported to be in the car (false report?), or the ownership of the car. Both these parties would/should be held more responsible than the driver.

As for the van driver drunk or on drugs - nothing has come out to indicate this is true. Are you aware of Thailand's libel laws?

With your comments about the only witness and shoe box full of money -- "you" might want to consider Thailand's libel laws.

Where did you read the report of the 18-year old sister being in the car? Another reliable poster here? Seems you want to believe what you want to believe and will disregard anything that might prove different and latch onto to anything that might help your belief despite its very questionable source. I also don't believe there were several posters who claim to have taken this bus before and mentioning she was a good driver .. I believe there was just one.

As for the only actual witness from the accident we have heard from about the van driver, at this particular time, appeared VERY credible. She stated she was speeding and had she not been speeding the accident would not have happened or would not have been as bad. (doesn't sound like somebody trying to "extract" themselves from a "world of <deleted>" but she also went on to explain the accident saying the van driver was moving between lanes (common) and that she flicked her high beams to make the driver aware she wanted to pass (common) and the driver moved back into her own lane but as she was passing the van driver moved back.

At this point and time it doesn't only sound like the girl is credible but it appears to explain the accident and its results very well. I've seen you question and speculate on a lot of things except to try to find more blame with the girl, the car owner, parents and so on. But never mention things about use of seat belts (van was equipped but none of the dead used them) or that there maybe a good likely hood the van driver could have avoided this speeding car if she was driving better. We all are aware the vast majority of these drivers drive fast, make illegal lane changes and that there have been a number of tragic accidents involving them because of this and their job and income really depending on how fast they can continue to get from A to B and back in a day.

If we are to look at this incident and try to make logical determinations of why it happened and ended so tragically then you need to not be biased and over emotional.

As ugly as it may be given the women is dead. Questions should also be being asked if she was "flouting the limit of the number of passengers" and/or "driving for public transport without a proper license" (as has been charged in past tragic van accidents) -- not to pass judgement or blame but to learn and yes, we should know if she was drinking or had drugs in her system. There seems to be more and more of these tragic Van accidents happening and the way to curb it is not by going after other drivers but doing a better job to see these Van drivers are fully trained and responsible to be carrying passengers. However, that doesn't mean we shift blame in this accident if any of these things turn out to be true as this girl was clearly in the wrong for driving and speeding but she is already under a microscope and we know more than we should about her (according to the law) because she is a minor.

Society is never going to control stupid actions by teenagers but they can do a lot to curb these continued van crashes that keep resulting in such tragic outcomes.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Nisa

[housepainter]

The article sets out to lecture the parents and yet is misguided, contradictory and plain daft. It is also writen long after the fact and only at a time when public sentiment has been measured. Therefore it is a cowardly piece, far too late and without any belief.

'She was too young and she was driving without a licence', we are told. But what does that mean? She either was driving illegally through being under age or she wasn't. Comments like 'being too young' suggest a subjective view, as in ' I think you're too young to like opera.'

What we are not told is whether you can drive aged 16. If that is the case then she was driving without a licence. That is not as bad as being underage, illegible to hold a licence. No right to be behind the wheel. But that is not made clear.

Stupid irresponsible comments such as ' Any young person would want to test the speed of a new car on the highway.' I suppose that's why these events are so rare then. Because the reality is that under age kids are not driving and are not out on the highway testing the speed of dad's car. The view of The Nation writer is condoning the action as being the expected thing to do. It is not.

W are left to wonder just what the law is and how it may affect the parents. We are not told that law. Certainly the Nation writer leaves us in the dark as to whether or not any action against the parents can be taken. Furthermore, we are not told how punitive any action may or may not be.Why? Because they can't be bothered to find out and explain the law to us.

I despair when a journalist who should know better calls for stringent punishment of the parents and then outlines community service. Let me shed a little light here. A tough sentence would be 8 years for Mom and Dad. Attending a geriatric ward in Bunrungrad on a Sunday afternoon and handing out party hats is not. The latter is community service for the high-so Ayutaya clan who discreetly this article is making excuses for. Already. Before the last victim has most likely died from their injuries.

The wjole article is musguided. The girl needs to be punished. Hammered. Jailed. Keys lost.

Then go after MOm and Dad and seize their assets right down to the family poodle. Sell the lot off and give the cash to the nine dead victim's families. Forty year working lives wiped out at a stroke, grief, loss and suffering. Let's have some figures that divide the Na Ayutaya's wealth down to the last baht by nine.

Let's have an outcome that smells clean and mirrors what happens in .................. anywhere else but here.

This article, The Nation, is an unworthy, empty, uncomprehending piece, that is beyond the comprehension of the author. The fine words intimating that we'll be here again are platitudes. Empty rhetoric, hyperbole. We are here again. Hello? Where has the writer been? Does Moo Ham mean anything?

There is a precedent to be followed. The precedent is set. Follow it.

Edited January 4, 2011 by housepainter

[phetaroi]

How can someone claim to enforce "Law and Order" and at the same time asks for punishment for someone although they have not broken any law? (I am talking of the parents of Praewa)

And how can someone claim a 16 year old is way too young to drive a car when in more and more countries today people can get a driver's licence at the age of 16?

This article appears to be the result of some sort of revenge justice, justice before all or any facts are know. That's irresponsible!

We don't know the circumstances of the accident such as, did the van change lanes in a reckless manner, as suggested, thus being at least partly responsible for the accident? And: How can 16 people fit in this kind of van? Was it overloaded, making it hard to control?

I assume Praewa did not deliberately crash into the van and simply had no "experience" how to handle such a situation after. So why don't we also see her tragedy? A little compassion also for her would certainly be welcome.

I could respond to almost any of the postings in this thread, but I'll select yours because I think you're partially on the right track, but then go to far, thus negating your overall position.

The first question is, did Praewa break the law? My understanding is that she did because she was driving a car without a license. As I understand Thai law, based on the articles about this incident that I've read, that is clearly breaking the law. On the other hand, did the van change lanes in a reckless? Perhaps, perhaps not. How does one define "reckless". So it appears to me that on the one had you have a person who has clearly broken the law, versus someone (the driver of the van) who may have been reckless based on a highly subjective definition that is little more than an opinion that can change from person to person.

The more difficult question in this thread is who should suffer consequences, and what should those consequences be? Some posters seem to think this is such an easy question, but I ask them to think of the word "just" (as in "justice"). And there are two separate issues here -- financial consequences and criminal consequences. My personal belief is that the parents should be held responsible for any and all financial consequences. Someone has to be, and the underage driver almost certainly cannot because she does not have the financial means to do so. The more difficult issue, to me, is the criminal responsibility. Should someone be incarcerated for manslaughter? Here I think the answer is different. The underage driver committed the manslaughter, and in my view can be held responsible through incarceration.

Now, you may be asking why not incarcerate the parents? If we discover with certainty that they allowed the underage driver to drive, then fine...no problem incarcerating them. But as a former teacher, vice-principal, and principal for 33 years, I've seen any number of parents who do everything right in raising child...could almost be model parents...and then the child still screws up and does something horrendous. Why should the nearly perfect parent be incarcerated for an act they could not have predicted or prevented?

Now, Dominique, the place where your argument falls apart miserably in when you ask for compassion for the direct perpetrator whose actions led to the deaths of several people. You must be insane. The compassion goes to those who died and their families and loved ones, not a little brat who killed them and knew better.

[phetaroi]

dominique355 has made the point that seems to have been missed by most. Initial accident reports stated that the girl had just returned from America. It is quite possible therefore that she already has a drivers license albeit for another country. Of course this would not be valid in Thailand because of her age. I do not offer this as an excuse for her actions, just something else to consider amongs all the other factors surrounding this very sad incident.

If I'm not mistaken, in the US if you're below 18 you get a drivers permit that requires an adult to be in the car at all times when you drive. Even then you're not allowed on the Freeway.

In this case she did not have an adult in the car, plus she was on the tollway. I think this is a moot point.

However I do agree with the article from the Nation.

Actually, you are mistaken. While it varies from one American state to the next, in general you can get a full license when you are 16 in most states, with few (if any) restrictions. Some states allow very restricted licenses at age 15.

Edited January 4, 2011 by phetaroi

[beejoir]

What a load of <deleted>...

A huge chunk of blame lies at the feet of the BIB, why drive underage, without a licence, too fast, drunk, no seatbelts.....? Why, because if you get caught you pay 200 baht max and go on your way.

No laws = dead people.

[lannarebirth]

Where did you read the report of the 18-year old sister being in the car? Another reliable poster here? Seems you want to believe what you want to believe and will disregard anything that might prove different and latch onto to anything that might help your belief despite its very questionable source. I also don't believe there were several posters who claim to have taken this bus before and mentioning she was a good driver .. I believe there was just one.

Here's where I heard it:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/429317-eight-people-killed-in-grisly-bangkok-tollway-accident/page__view__findpost__p__4114363

As for the only actual witness from the accident we have heard from about the van driver, at this particular time, appeared VERY credible. She stated she was speeding and had she not been speeding the accident would not have happened or would not have been as bad. (doesn't sound like somebody trying to "extract" themselves from a "world of <deleted>" but she also went on to explain the accident saying the van driver was moving between lanes (common) and that she flicked her high beams to make the driver aware she wanted to pass (common) and the driver moved back into her own lane but as she was passing the van driver moved back.

You may not be aware Nisa but the flashing of one's high beams is in no way an accepted indication of intentions. On the contrary it is generally the act of an arrogant, extremely aggressive driver.

At this point and time it doesn't only sound like the girl is credible but it appears to explain the accident and its results very well. I've seen you question and speculate on a lot of things except to try to find more blame with the girl, the car owner, parents and so on. But never mention things about use of seat belts (van was equipped but none of the dead used them) or that there maybe a good likely hood the van driver could have avoided this speeding car if she was driving better. We all are aware the vast majority of these drivers drive fast, make illegal lane changes and that there have been a number of tragic accidents involving them because of this and their job and income really depending on how fast they can continue to get from A to B and back in a day.

If we are to look at this incident and try to make logical determinations of why it happened and ended so tragically then you need to not be biased and over emotional.

As ugly as it may be given the women is dead. Questions should also be being asked if she was "flouting the limit of the number of passengers" and/or "driving for public transport without a proper license" (as has been charged in past tragic van accidents) -- not to pass judgement or blame but to learn and yes, we should know if she was drinking or had drugs in her system. There seems to be more and more of these tragic Van accidents happening and the way to curb it is not by going after other drivers but doing a better job to see these Van drivers are fully trained and responsible to be carrying passengers. However, that doesn't mean we shift blame in this accident if any of these things turn out to be true as this girl was clearly in the wrong for driving and speeding but she is already under a microscope and we know more than we should about her (according to the law) because she is a minor.

Nisa, others have thanked you for your balanced input on these many associated threads. I'm going to go the other way and suggest that you are a shill for those who would care to skew this story in another way than it appears to have happened.

Society is never going to control stupid actions by teenagers but they can do a lot to curb these continued van crashes that keep resulting in such tragic outcomes.

I do agree there is alot to be done in improving van safety, and while there may have been fewer deaths had the van driver demanded the riders to wear seatbelts (if they were available) the fact is none of these people would be dead if the speeding car driven by the underaged, unlicensed girl hadn't slammed into them.

[/quote]

[Nisa]

Where did you read the report of the 18-year old sister being in the car? Another reliable poster here? Seems you want to believe what you want to believe and will disregard anything that might prove different and latch onto to anything that might help your belief despite its very questionable source. I also don't believe there were several posters who claim to have taken this bus before and mentioning she was a good driver .. I believe there was just one.

Here's where I heard it:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/429317-eight-people-killed-in-grisly-bangkok-tollway-accident/page__view__findpost__p__4114363

The link you provided shows no mention of a sister but I did a search through the entire thread for the word sister and no mention of any news article stating the sister was in a car (just a poster appearing to pull it out his a@@) or even that she has an 18 year old sister. So, it appears you are proving my point about what you are choosing to see and not see.

If there is some valid indication (beyond a TV member speculating it) that a sister may have been in the car please provide a real link as I obviously missed that report.

Edited January 4, 2011 by Nisa

[Phatcharanan]

The author of this editorial most certainly, has never been involved in a like situation. Granted parents may be responsible for their children and their actions when those actions are preplanned and detrimental to society. But should accidents of this nature be approached in a manner that juvenile murder, theft rings, street children theft, etc, are? We hold the system responsible for education, or lack there of, of our students, is not education at fault in this case also?

Totally wrong.

People died as a result of parental ill-advised judgements.

And a childs first teachers are its parents.

[yellow1red1]

in this case, the greatest punishment for the family, strip them of na ayuddya status

[globalmenace]

I think the editorial was very well written, for it's scope. I feel very sorry for the dead and injured, and their loved ones. I also feel very sorry for the girl and her family.

Traffic safety involves many elements, especially the idea that it is important. Road design, vehicle standards, the list goes on and on. But foremost is the issue of law enforcement, and the certainty that bad behavior on the road has severe consequences when the police catch you.

If this occurred in the United States, and the injured parties were able to show to a judge or jury that the parents knew their child was driving, the parents would lose EVERY financial asset they possessed, without question. And rightfully so.

That is accountability. Something Thailand has a lot to learn about. Hell, you can't even sue a licenced professional for malpractice here.

Edited January 4, 2011 by globalmenace

[katana]

dominique355 has made the point that seems to have been missed by most. Initial accident reports stated that the girl had just returned from America. It is quite possible therefore that she already has a drivers license albeit for another country. Of course this would not be valid in Thailand because of her age. I do not offer this as an excuse for her actions, just something else to consider amongs all the other factors surrounding this very sad incident.

If I'm not mistaken, in the US if you're below 18 you get a drivers permit that requires an adult to be in the car at all times when you drive. Even then you're not allowed on the Freeway.

In this case she did not have an adult in the car, plus she was on the tollway. I think this is a moot point.

However I do agree with the article from the Nation.

She was interviewed in Saturday's Thairath (01/01/11) where there's a picture of the her wai-ing one of the injured at Vibhavadee Hospital while apologising and asking for forgiveness. She went there with her mother and father.

She's quoted as saying if she could turn back time, she would rather she had died in the crash and the 9 van passengers had survived.

Apparently she's 17 but been studying in the US and taken her driving test there when she was 16. Looking on Wikipedia, the legal age is 16 in the US.

Her version of events regarding the crash is she was driving in the right-hand lane and saw the van in front in the middle lane. The van pulled over to the right so she flashed her lights for right of way and the van returned to the middle lane. But when she went to overtake, the van came back into the right lane and she nearly went into the back of it. As she swerved to the left to avoid it, she lost control of the car and was thrown under the console. She heard 2-3 loud bangs before the car came to a halt and she was pulled out by the rescue services a short while later.

The picture of her standing there with the phone that was widely circulated came about because the rescue services told her to contact her insurers.

She's still in a state of shock, having to take sleeping pills prescribed by the doctor and has plans to be ordained as a nun to make merit for the dead in the crash.

Edited January 4, 2011 by katana

[slapout]

The author of this editorial most certainly, has never been involved in a like situation. Granted parents may be responsible for their children and their actions when those actions are preplanned and detrimental to society. But should accidents of this nature be approached in a manner that juvenile murder, theft rings, street children theft, etc, are? We hold the system responsible for education, or lack there of, of our students, is not education at fault in this case also?

Totally wrong.

People died as a result of parental ill-advised judgements.

And a childs first teachers are its parents.

Not sure your source for the "parents ill advise4d judgment" The parents are not necessarily the ones who teach a child to drive. If drivers education were incorporated into the Thai school system , driving attitude/oractices may change for the good. "Totally wrong" sounds so unbending and authoritative coming from someone who has not presented their expert credits.

[jackr]

The girl shouldn't be the target. The parents should be.

They both should be.

Has anyone discovered what caused the accident. Was the van driver doing what van drivers usually do, driving too fast, without allowing for any error on other motorist's part, trusting that 'his abilities' as a 'professional' driver would keep him safe, sod the passengers, , treating the road as his own domain,regardless of traffic conditions. Would it have made any difference if the driver of the other car had a full license and was 45 years old? A police colonel? The girl, whilst being in the wrong for driving, may NOT have been the cause of the accident. I agree that the parents be held responsible, but lets find out who caused the accident, before deciding what level of retribution there is for inadequate supervision of a minor.

That the van driver may have been at fault with their bad driving and anything else connected with the van (such as overloading) is immaterial. There simply wouldn't have been an accident if little girl weren't on the road in this case whether she caused it or not.

[KKK]

Adult parents are responsible for the actions of their children until they reach the age of majority. Not knowing what your kids are doing is no excuse. Kids who make mistakes of the kind referred to in this thread should be removed from the parent's care and placed in a government detention center for juvenile offenders. The parents should do jail time as well as pay compensation (covered by compulsory insurance) to any injured parties.

I have always said "what kind of parent allows their 13-14 year-old son/daughter to drive a motorbike?" Answer "an irresponsible one."

In the almost 30 years I've been here I must have witnessed 10 thousand or more irresponsible or selfish acts committed by Thai adults. Children learn from their parents and will grow up to do the same. ME & ONLY ME seems to be the order of the day. The Bangkok Post many years ago had a similar article that was headlined "ME 1ST". Unfortunately it didn't seem to have any affect.

[harrry]

Actually this girl probably spent more waking hours with the teachers in her school than she would be able to spend with her parents even if they were home all the time. Maybe we should jail the teachers who indubitably hadan impact on her life.

[Thai at Heart]

What stops kids doing dumb things such as driving before legal is the fear that they will be caught and punished. One worries a bit what mum and dad might say about you doing so, but the fear of 2 months in prison, plus whatever fines come your way for doing so is in my mind a much greater motivation than fear of parental punishment.

When there is little chance of being caught and punished (respect for the law), where is logic in being fearful of driving underage without a license? If the parents aided the kid to drive underage, they should be fined accordingly, but relying on parents to monitor their 16 year old kids 24 hours a day isn't practical. Expecting them to have some respect for the law is the parental responsibility, but this is extremely hard to imbibe into a child if all they see, hear and know is that the police themselves and the legal justice system are utterly ineffective and open to influence by "who you know".

This is hardly aided by the way that punishments are set up here, where custodial punishments are in complete disproportion to the financial punishment i.e. 2 years in jail (never going to happen) and/or a 50,000 baht fine (pocket money). If people were fined 5000 baht for driving without helmets on bikes, everyone would wear a helmet. Likewise, if driving without a car license was fined 100,000 baht, everyone would get a license.

Hold the parents partly responsible yes, but the larger malaise in the country is the completely uselss BIB and the proportion of fines versus custodial sentence for offences.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Thai at Heart