What Constitutes Working In 'Thailand?'

[Shoeboat]

If I was writing a monthly column for Big Chili magazine and raking in say, 1,600 baht per month - (beer money) then would I be breaking the law? I'm sure a freelance employee worth that monthly amount would not be worth the hassle of putting through the legal process and I would completely understand.

If somebody I know gave me some money because I translated some French documents into English, should I refuse on the basis that it is tantamount to working and only the rich and powerful are allowed to make and break the law whilst we who wish to simply survive are not allowed to?

If I was based in Bangkok on a tourist visa and somebody heard I was great photographer and flew me to Sri Lanka to take some pictures and paid me in Thai baht when I delivered them, is this illegal? Perhaps I should do it for free if not.

You may say that I should not be living in Thailand if I am not 'officially' working, but I have a Thai girlfriend and neither of us with to get married. I have the rare luxury of having a Thai girlfriend who's mother is dead, so this isn't an issue and we can live our lives in the harmless and peaceful way that WE want to, and not bullied into conformity by society. Her living in England is not an option for reasons that are to lengthy to go into, but the crux of this message is the first three paragraphs.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Shoeboat

[Mario2008]

Yes, it would be working. in some cases even when you would not get paid at all.

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0366.pdf

section 5 gives the definition of working, which includes volunteering.

In case of you going abroad Thai labour law would not apply.

[DTiger]

Yes, it would be working. in some cases even when you would not get paid at all.

http://thailaws.com/...ws/tlaw0366.pdf

section 5 gives the definition of working, which includes volunteering.

In case of you going abroad Thai labour law would not apply.

Which somehow means you can be paid, but not for work! :jap:

[Tatsujin]

As has been stated here many times, pretty much anything 'can' be considered work, even making 1 phone call related to running a company for example is considered 'work'. If you do a Google search or read the link above, even volunteering for unpaid charity work is considered 'work' here and you still need a Work Permit.

Personally, working illegally and without a WP is just not worth the potential hassles further down the line. All it takes is 1 phone call from someone who doesn't like you or you've pissed off and you have everyone breathing down your neck, fines to pay, jail term, deportation and blacklisting to contend with.

And Shoeboat, to answer your question, yes all 3 of your scenarios are technically illegal and would require a Work Permit to be legal. Remember, you are NOT Thai and like it or not, the rules are different here and applied differently here for foreigners. What a Thai can get away with very easily, you'll be raked over the coals for.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Tatsujin

[old wanderer]

A few years ago I had just gotten a new 0-A multiple entry visa. The next week my employer decided he wanted me to go talk with an airline in Thailand. I would need a B (Business visa) to do this. I went back to the Los Angeles consulate office, and they issued me a B visa, BUT it cause my O-A visa to be canceled, even though I had yet to use it. Seem like you cannot just choose the type of visa you use on entry. Only 1 valid Thai visa is allowed in your passport at a time.

Bottom line I returned from my business trip, and had to fork our another $175 for a new O-A visa.

Here I was just discussing some business with the airline, they were not paying me, and would at some time in the future maybe spend some money with my employer. A B visa was required.

[mstribling]

Yeah. You kinda over-shared with that last paragraph.

Since you already live in Thailand, you must already know that the truth is: If the come for you, your guilty. Don't kid yourself with what the legal definition is.

I would not sweat it in most cases, but in yours, your published in a magazine, here in Thailand. I wouldn't do it for that small money.

[Colabamumbai]

Half of the work done by foreigners in Thailand is without proper documentation, visas, work permits. If I use the internet to make business abroad from Thailand, I am considered working. Many Government schools hire foreigners thru an agency, they will not hire you individually, no work permit is issued, you run the risk of an immigration visit, but rarely would that happen, It was explained to me how it works.

The school director has a budget, he pays the agency and inflated amount, documented, then the agency slips him some of the money back, the agency pays you less than they receive, and all are allowed to stay in business. The agency guaranteed me work teaching, they drove me to the school so I would know where it was, no WP will be issued. Since then (they have told a number of foreign employees that the WP is in the process) none have ever received one. So school director is breaking the law, agency is breaking the law and I would be also if I took the job. When I applied to the school directly, by passing the agency, I was told they could not hire me. How do they get away with it you may ask?

[Tatsujin]

Half of the work done by foreigners in Thailand is without proper documentation, visas, work permits. If I use the internet to make business abroad from Thailand, I am considered working. Many Government schools hire foreigners thru an agency, they will not hire you individually, no work permit is issued, you run the risk of an immigration visit, but rarely would that happen, It was explained to me how it works.

The school director has a budget, he pays the agency and inflated amount, documented, then the agency slips him some of the money back, the agency pays you less than they receive, and all are allowed to stay in business. The agency guaranteed me work teaching, they drove me to the school so I would know where it was, no WP will be issued. Since then (they have told a number of foreign employees that the WP is in the process) none have ever received one. So school director is breaking the law, agency is breaking the law and I would be also if I took the job. When I applied to the school directly, by passing the agency, I was told they could not hire me. How do they get away with it you may ask?

They get away with it cos they are Thai, simple as that. You should know by now that the rules/laws that exist here in Thailand are usually selectively applied. Deal with it, accept it, fight against it, ignore it, do whatever you think works best for yourself . . . it's not going to change.

[Colabamumbai]

Half of the work done by foreigners in Thailand is without proper documentation, visas, work permits. If I use the internet to make business abroad from Thailand, I am considered working. Many Government schools hire foreigners thru an agency, they will not hire you individually, no work permit is issued, you run the risk of an immigration visit, but rarely would that happen, It was explained to me how it works.

The school director has a budget, he pays the agency and inflated amount, documented, then the agency slips him some of the money back, the agency pays you less than they receive, and all are allowed to stay in business. The agency guaranteed me work teaching, they drove me to the school so I would know where it was, no WP will be issued. Since then (they have told a number of foreign employees that the WP is in the process) none have ever received one. So school director is breaking the law, agency is breaking the law and I would be also if I took the job. When I applied to the school directly, by passing the agency, I was told they could not hire me. How do they get away with it you may ask?

They get away with it cos they are Thai, simple as that. You should know by now that the rules/laws that exist here in Thailand are usually selectively applied. Deal with it, accept it, fight against it, ignore it, do whatever you think works best for yourself . . . it's not going to change.

I know that, I was making the post to enlighten others who have questions about working, work permits, contracts to share my experience, to state the facts.

[Abrak]

The key words under the Labor Law which define work are 'making effort' 'showing expertise' 'with or without benefit'. Obviously people do not usually work without reward but the Law prosecutes the individual even if he does not receive remuneration because it suspects that a) he is being paid offshore and his employee may well be based offshore.

'Making effort' is very key. You might think that when you play golf that you 'make effort' 'show expertise' for 'no benefit'. However what the Law looks for is evidence that you have duties, responsibilities or potential liabilities that 'forces you' to 'make an effort' in order to meet your 'obligations'. So the op is in trouble here under the Law because (1) he is paid for his monthly column implying 'work' and (2) he has an obligation to supply a monthly column. If he simply sent in occasional articles for no reward which the paper were free to print or not print at their own discretion, it would not be deemed as work

[mca]

I've always wondered how it's viewed when a CEO for an international company flies in to Bangkok to inspect the operation or whatever. Shouldn't they need a WP?

[mca]

I have the rare luxury of having a Thai girlfriend who's mother is dead,

I'm sure you could have put that a different way mate.

Edited January 7, 2011 by mca

[Soutpeel]

I've always wondered how it's viewed when a CEO for an international company flies in to Bangkok to inspect the operation or whatever. Shouldn't they need a WP?

Let me give you the interpretation I got a few years ago from senior immigration/labour dept personnel, will stress its their interpretation:

The CEO/senior personnel of company X from say Singapore comes to Thailand to look at/negotiate a contract for work to be carried out in Thailand.

During business meetings/negotiations going on in Thailand it would be permissible for personnel to be "working" in Thailand under a Non-imm B only, as in this case would fall under the Non-imm B definitions of " possibility of doing business" in Thailand.

Once the contract is signed and personnel start arriving from Singapore to fullfill this contract and are "based" in Thailand for the duration of the contract a Non-imm B + WP is required.

Personnel visiting from the office in Singapore periodically ie the CEO to assess progress of the project or attend meetings would be permitted to attend these meetings on a Non-imm B only

[mca]

Cheers. So even if a CEO flew in once a year for literally a day they'd still need to arrange a non-B before coming? Or would you think most would simply come and get their stamp at the airport same as my folks when they come for a holiday?

[Soutpeel]

Cheers. So even if a CEO flew in once a year for literally a day they'd still need to arrange a non-B before coming? Or would you think most would simply come and get their stamp at the airport same as my folks when they come for a holiday?

I think under the interpretation of the rules a Non-imm B is required, but think a blind eye is turned in most circumstances, a guy landing at the airport in his suit & tie and a lap top computer under his arm and getting chopped in for 30 days is hardly coming to Thailand on holiday is he ? but saying that do know some guys in and out on projects who got 1 year Non-imm B with multiple entries, so guess it is done by some people.

[mca]

Thanks. Apologies for being so anal about this but it got me thinking.

[lopburi3]

I suspect most CEO types making periodic visits would obtain a three year non immigrant B visa as that seems to be exactly what it is designed for.

[mca]

Is that the one with the BOI paperwork?

[Soutpeel]

Is that the one with the BOI paperwork?

dont beleive its restricted to BOI

[Maestro]

Is that the one with the BOI paperwork?

dont beleive its restricted to BOI

Correct. Not restricted to BOI.

[tombkk]

Cheers. So even if a CEO flew in once a year for literally a day they'd still need to arrange a non-B before coming? Or would you think most would simply come and get their stamp at the airport same as my folks when they come for a holiday?

If anybody comes over to work, he needs a work permit. This can be issued within a day and does not require a non-B. It can be issued even if the person has a 30-day visa exempt stamp. This temporary WP can be valid for up to 15 days. The Application for Temporary Work Permit under Article 7 is called Tor Tor 11 (ตท๑๑).

It can be faxed to the Ministry of Labour in Din Daeng and needs to be accompanied by a copy of the passport, visa (if applicable) and entry stamp. In addition, you need a copy of the employer's passport and work permit as well as the ususal company registration. Fax number is 02 354 0117.

This will be applicable for example when auditors from HQ come over for a week or two to check the Thai branch office's accounts. Anyway, it is required even for one day of work, but in practice, hardly ever checked. I know of a case where it was indeed checked, the MD was sent to jail and a 3 million Baht bail was set, and in the end, the company had to pay a fine of THB 50,000.

Edited January 9, 2011 by tombkk

[tombkk]

A few years ago I had just gotten a new 0-A multiple entry visa. The next week my employer decided he wanted me to go talk with an airline in Thailand. I would need a B (Business visa) to do this. I went back to the Los Angeles consulate office, and they issued me a B visa, BUT it cause my O-A visa to be canceled, even though I had yet to use it. Seem like you cannot just choose the type of visa you use on entry. Only 1 valid Thai visa is allowed in your passport at a time.

Bottom line I returned from my business trip, and had to fork our another $175 for a new O-A visa.

Here I was just discussing some business with the airline, they were not paying me, and would at some time in the future maybe spend some money with my employer. A B visa was required.

The non-B does not allow you to work, it allows you to apply for a work permit valid for a year. (Before Lopburi3 corrects me again: Yes, you can apply for a work permit before you have this visa, but that's not the point.)

In order to work, you need a work permit, and a temporary work permit for 1-15 days can be issued on your O-A visa. see my other post in this thread.

[LivinLOS]

The one I find curious is profiting from investments while in Thailand.

Example 1. I buy an equity position while outside of Thailand. I fly into Thailand, the equity position rises, I get richer, I fly out of Thailand and sell it. I made that money while in Thailand.

Eg 2. The same example as above but now I sell it while in Thailand, now I have actually realized gains within the country.

Eg 3. I both buy and sell the equity while here in Thailand. This interests me as you dont need a work permit to buy and sell another asset, be it a house or a car, yet both can make money.

Eg 4. I sit at a desk all day, day trading the international markets with high leverage, making 100's of k USD a year and not paying any Thai income tax.

These scenarios are all on a shades of grey scale, I think it would be hard to argue that 4 isnt working and shouldnt pay income tax, but you cant pay income tax in Thailand without a WP and you cant get one for the kind of work I am talking about. Option 1 however is essentially the same thing, but would be totally wacky to think every tourist owes taxes on any equity rise during their time within the kingdom.

The law in Thailand is badly worded and vague (for a start it uses the word it is defining in the definition !!) and a catch all. In a sane country it would be challenged and defined, but thats not going to happen, its just used as a blanket rule to throw at people and gain tea money payments sometimes. But I would be interested in legal opinions on the above.

[Mario2008]

The 15 day provisions is meant for emergency situation, like when a repair man needs to come from abroad to do urgent repairs.

[LivinLOS]

Also of interest to the above post (but not really the OP) is financial spread betting.

Spread betting is gambling, its classed as such and in the west you dont pay income taxes on it. However spread betting on markets is no different to trading in any other way. You make a bet that a position will rise or fall.

So if betting in Thailand is illegal, why is stock trading not illegal, when does betting become investing and when is it gambling ??

[maswov]

Half of the work done by foreigners in Thailand is without proper documentation, visas, work permits. If I use the internet to make business abroad from Thailand, I am considered working. Many Government schools hire foreigners thru an agency, they will not hire you individually, no work permit is issued, you run the risk of an immigration visit, but rarely would that happen, It was explained to me how it works.

The school director has a budget, he pays the agency and inflated amount, documented, then the agency slips him some of the money back, the agency pays you less than they receive, and all are allowed to stay in business. The agency guaranteed me work teaching, they drove me to the school so I would know where it was, no WP will be issued. Since then (they have told a number of foreign employees that the WP is in the process) none have ever received one. So school director is breaking the law, agency is breaking the law and I would be also if I took the job. When I applied to the school directly, by passing the agency, I was told they could not hire me. How do they get away with it you may ask?

They get away with it cos they are Thai, simple as that. You should know by now that the rules/laws that exist here in Thailand are usually selectively applied. Deal with it, accept it, fight against it, ignore it, do whatever you think works best for yourself . . . it's not going to change.

I don't think they get away with it because they are Thai, I think it is more of a loophole. Seems like the school is not actually hiring the teacher but contracting through the agency. The arrangement is between the school and the agency so essentially the teacher is working for the agency. So really it looks like the school is operating within the law and the agency is not.

[maswov]

Also of interest to the above post (but not really the OP) is financial spread betting.

Spread betting is gambling, its classed as such and in the west you dont pay income taxes on it. However spread betting on markets is no different to trading in any other way. You make a bet that a position will rise or fall.

So if betting in Thailand is illegal, why is stock trading not illegal, when does betting become investing and when is it gambling ??

Trading stocks is buying and selling part of a company. Sure you can say you are betting that it will go up or down but there is more than one meaning to a word. You could even say when you drive your motorbike down Sukhumvit you are betting you will make it to your destination safely.

[KoratFarang]

Can some one help answer this.

If i rent a house and i want to pain the house or put pictures on the wall would that be work aswell ?

[121Advice]

Day trading and/or profiteering from investments falls under personal taxation and is dependent on your residency status in your country of origin. For a UK individual deemed 'non ordinarily resident' (i.e not in the UK for more than 90 days in the fiscal year) then all gains from UK/overseas are free of capital gains tax. You are only liable for income earned/generated in the UK (irrespective of residency) Income and capital gains are taxed differently.

If you live predominantly in Thailand then 'technically' there is an obligation to declare investment gains and pay local taxation, but only if the gains are receipted into Thailand NOT if the gains are purely made via an offshore company/broker and/or offshore account. (double taxation treaties exist).

Trading does not constitute working as it is a purely personal exercise where only you stand to gain/loose.

In relation to the guy writing a monthly article, this is absolutely 100% 'working' but many do so under a 'ghost name' or without personal recognition. Whenever/wherever your [actual] name is printed then your are effectively advertising yourself and would need a permit to do so - unless of course you write the articles from abroad in advance and they are submitted whilst you are outside of the Kingdom!!

Most investors are likely to use an offshore broker not only because of the lack of good Thai institutions, but simply because they do not wish to have gains diluted by tax - it defeats the object to trade regularly only to loose some of the gain(s) via tax. This is why offshore investing in favourable territories like the Isle of Man and Luxembourg continue to be popular. You can still access the Thai market (if you so wish) but your holdings are outside Thai jurisdiction etc etc...

Offshore investing makes sense. If you were ever to fall foul of the authorities in your country of choice (Thailand, Philippines etc) and for whatever reason got deported or needed to leave the country in a hurry (medical emergency for example) then removing funds from Asia is basically an administrative nightmare. Much better to hold the majority of your funds offshore where they can be accessed globally without too much difficulty... Worth remembering!

Hope the above is of some help..

Andrew.

[LivinLOS]

Also of interest to the above post (but not really the OP) is financial spread betting.

Spread betting is gambling, its classed as such and in the west you dont pay income taxes on it. However spread betting on markets is no different to trading in any other way. You make a bet that a position will rise or fall.

So if betting in Thailand is illegal, why is stock trading not illegal, when does betting become investing and when is it gambling ??

Trading stocks is buying and selling part of a company. Sure you can say you are betting that it will go up or down but there is more than one meaning to a word. You could even say when you drive your motorbike down Sukhumvit you are betting you will make it to your destination safely.

But my point is why is any other derivative trading (options, futures, etc) perfectly legal and yet spread betting gambling.

Its because one has betting in the description is my guess.