What Constitutes Working In 'Thailand?'

[tombkk]

AFAIK you cannot work on a multiple non-B, unless you have a work permit. If I am wrong and you can indeed work without a work permit, as long as you have a non-B, kindly do point me to the regulation. I believe it is a common misconception that people think they have a "business visa" and are therefore allowed to work.

Correct you are not suppose towork on an Non-imm B multiple entry, but read the interpretation given to me by senior immigration and labour office officals a few years ago in an earlier post which gives examples of what they thought and their interpretation of rules, the problem comes in interpretation of what "work" is vs "looking at doing business in Thailand", where a non-imm B only is permissable

The rules are badly written and vague, therefore in almost all cases its down to an individual official to interpret, irrespective of what the regulation says and we could go around and around with this debate, In my experience dealing these sort issues the vast majority of immigration/labour officials dont know or dont understand the rules themselves as they stand

FYI...there are precidents/provisions in the Oil & Gas act which actually does "allow" somebody to work on a 1 year Non-imm B without a full WP, (not an emergency WP) these relate to certain specific cases of certain classes of workers offshore only for periods < 12 months on certain projects, but again, this was an interpretation of the rules by a specific official and believe "definitive" rules are coming soon, which would require this class of worker to have a full WP

I am sure there are exception in the Oil & Gas industry, which I am not familiar with. "Looking at doing business" is still different from auditing or having meetins with customers, though.

No, people don't usually get arrested doing this. In the example quoted, I hear that a disgruntled employee raised the alarm to immi, and they have to follow up once alerted. However, business people come to Thailand on tourist visas or visa-exempt stamps to have meetings all the time, and it's not an issue.

[tombkk]

These scenarios are all on a shades of grey scale, I think it would be hard to argue that 4 isnt working and shouldnt pay income tax, but you cant pay income tax in Thailand without a WP and you cant get one for the kind of work I am talking about.

You can pay imcome taxes without a work permit. That's because the different Thai authorities (Labour Department and Ministry of Finance in this case) don't talk to each other.

Point in case is that temporary workers not on social security (free lancers) get paid minus a withholding tax on their personal income tax of 3 to 10 percent. I don't know what determines the percentages, but they are actually required to declare the income, as well as the tax already deducted, in their yearly PNG91.

Funny thing is that I know of farang teachers who get deducted this withholding tax, but they have never filed a PNG91 (yearly income tax report) as they never had a work permit. In fact, I don't know what would happen if they did file the PND91: Maybe they would even get a tax refund? ;-)

[sabaijai]

If anybody comes over to work, he needs a work permit. This can be issued within a day and does not require a non-B. It can be issued even if the person has a 30-day visa exempt stamp. This temporary WP can be valid for up to 15 days. The Application for Temporary Work Permit under Article 7 is called Tor Tor 11 (ตท๑๑).

It can be faxed to the Ministry of Labour in Din Daeng and needs to be accompanied by a copy of the passport, visa (if applicable) and entry stamp. In addition, you need a copy of the employer's passport and work permit as well as the ususal company registration. Fax number is 02 354 0117.

Not saying your wrong , but in my experience with "emergency work permits" they do require somebody to have a Non immigrant visa ie an "O" or "B", this is based on the arguement that a Non immigrant visa can be had generally within a 24 hour period prior to travelling.

International film production teams are issued WPs regularly without non-immigrant visas as long as the shoot lasts less than 15 days. 'Emergency' doesn't come into it, it's SOP. As tombkk mentioned, the crew does not have to be present to be issued WPs, ie a local coordinator can arrange the permits in advance or the company can do it via fax.

From the Thailand Film Office FAQs:

Q:What kind of visa do we need ?

A:Crews intending to work in Thailand for a period not exceeding 15 days can do so under a tourist visa.

Only crews working more than 15 days must have a non-immigrant multiple type visa.

Q: Do short stay crews need work permits ?

A: Yes, they need to have them. Both types of crew require work permits.

Crews working within 15 days will need a form notifying the Employment Department

whereas crews staying over 15 days will need to submit more detailed documents, your local

coordinator can help you with this.

Q: Does the crew have to apply and collect the work permit at the Employment

Department themselves?

A: No, the coordinator can organize the work permits for the crews.

http://www.thailandfilmoffice.org/index.php/en/faq

[Arkady]

The one I find curious is profiting from investments while in Thailand.

Example 1. I buy an equity position while outside of Thailand. I fly into Thailand, the equity position rises, I get richer, I fly out of Thailand and sell it. I made that money while in Thailand.

Eg 2. The same example as above but now I sell it while in Thailand, now I have actually realized gains within the country.

Eg 3. I both buy and sell the equity while here in Thailand. This interests me as you dont need a work permit to buy and sell another asset, be it a house or a car, yet both can make money.

Eg 4. I sit at a desk all day, day trading the international markets with high leverage, making 100's of k USD a year and not paying any Thai income tax.

These scenarios are all on a shades of grey scale, I think it would be hard to argue that 4 isnt working and shouldnt pay income tax, but you cant pay income tax in Thailand without a WP and you cant get one for the kind of work I am talking about. Option 1 however is essentially the same thing, but would be totally wacky to think every tourist owes taxes on any equity rise during their time within the kingdom.

The law in Thailand is badly worded and vague (for a start it uses the word it is defining in the definition !!) and a catch all. In a sane country it would be challenged and defined, but thats not going to happen, its just used as a blanket rule to throw at people and gain tea money payments sometimes. But I would be interested in legal opinions on the above.

Doing your personal investments in your own name doesn't count as work that needs a work permit. It is considered like depositing money in a bank. However, investing for some one else or providing investment advice would be considered work. Investing through a company could also be construed as work. Income from investments offshore is taxable, only if brought into Thailand in the year it is earned. Income from onshore investments owned by foreign individuals residing in Thailand is taxed on the same basis as Thais are taxed on investments. Capital gains on listed investments are tax free and dividends from listed investments are subject to 10% withholding tax. As long as you stick to portfolio investments in minority stakes of listed companies, you will be OK. The same could technically apply to unlisted investments in Thaland but it is greyer area, particularly if you are buying majority stakes in companies, or buying property which is not for your own use. Exercising any type of control over investments is likely to be considered work.

[Eureka]

I've always wondered how it's viewed when a CEO for an international company flies in to Bangkok to inspect the operation or whatever. Shouldn't they need a WP?

Let me give you the interpretation I got a few years ago from senior immigration/labour dept personnel, will stress its their interpretation:

The CEO/senior personnel of company X from say Singapore comes to Thailand to look at/negotiate a contract for work to be carried out in Thailand.

During business meetings/negotiations going on in Thailand it would be permissible for personnel to be "working" in Thailand under a Non-imm B only, as in this case would fall under the Non-imm B definitions of " possibility of doing business" in Thailand.

Once the contract is signed and personnel start arriving from Singapore to fullfill this contract and are "based" in Thailand for the duration of the contract a Non-imm B + WP is required.

Personnel visiting from the office in Singapore periodically ie the CEO to assess progress of the project or attend meetings would be permitted to attend these meetings on a Non-imm B only

Singapore was not a good example as they are also a member of ASEAN and as such are likely to fall into a different category.

Signatories to the ASEAN-Australia_New Zealand Free Trade agreement have different opportunites available to them. The Australian government issues an ASEAN card (do not remember name), to qualifying busomess people, which grants automatic 90 VISAs on arrival allowing business to be conducted without a work permit.

[rammis35]

If I am working for doctor in the USA as a transcriber (which I do over the internet) and living in Thailand, would I need a WP then. I was planning on moving to Thailand and did not think I needed it for this, but I could be wrong.

[backsoon]

According to the letter of the law, wiping your own arse is working, in fact thinking about wiping your own arse would also fit.

The last time I checked 'arse wiping' WAS a thai only trade and included in one of the 37 odd trades foreigners are prohibited from working in. (I think it's right after driving a tuk-tuk on the list )

I did some further checking though, and it would appear, in the field of "arse wiping" foreigners can work, but ONLY as 'consultants'!!

Sorry couldn't resist.

And now back on topic.

Now I see why in most Thai toilets (except Sukhumvit, BKK) there is no paper tissue, only buckets of water. Obviously this is to stop us from Tax evasion

[Soutpeel]

International film production teams are issued WPs regularly without non-immigrant visas as long as the shoot lasts less than 15 days. 'Emergency' doesn't come into it, it's SOP. As tombkk mentioned, the crew does not have to be present to be issued WPs, ie a local coordinator can arrange the permits in advance or the company can do it via fax.

"Emergency" is a term we use for this WP, its not the official name, as typically we bringing someone in on an emergency basis to carry out work, and correct personnel concerned do not have to be present and the permits can be arranged in advance and via email, BTW what is a FAX ?....

The only difference its seems is we have been told to get the persons concerned a Non-imm B, prior to travelling, once again most likley an interpretation of the rules by an individual officical

[Soutpeel]

I don't know how it works in the U.K. or other countries, but in the U.S. any money you earn in the U.S., whether it be from online trading or any other online business, gets taxed by the IRS if the money comes from the U.S. regardless of where you actually reside. My comments are not about justifying tax evasion or anything like that; I'm assuming that in any case, taxes are being paid. If you're assuming the opposite, then we're talking about two very different things I think.

And from what I understand, many of us actually would love to be taxed by Thailand, since that's essentially a prerequisite towards citizenship here. It's just that you can't get the work permit to do this, and so therefore you can't pay the taxes because if you did, it's like wearing a sign that says "I'm breaking the law by making money without a work permit!" Trading stocks online is the perfect example. How is Thailand going to issue you a work permit to do something that it is in no way involved in, and that you can do from anywhere in the world? Why would it do this, when that would just send you away to spend your income in some other country?

Let's remember that taxes or no, Thailand wins every time any of us bring money into it from the outside. It adds to their economy. It's one of the reasons why Thailand is so prosperous today.

Now somebody brought up the case where somebody does work here in Thailand but, using the Internet, gets paid offshore, and so the ruse is that they didn't displace a Thai worker in the process, and I get it why Thailand wants to go after these guys. But I don't think anyone here is trying to defend that.

I think you are missing my point, under the current rules, where you pay tax, where money is paid etc have no bearing on the whether someone is defined as working in Thailand or not. WP requirements and taxation are handled by different departments and they dont talk to each other anyway.

per your point about not being able to get a WP for intenet type business' - there was a member on TV, who was actually doing this and had set a company and had a WP, so based on this, it seems it is possible, which would leave question of whether someone can be bothered to do it, ie set up a Thai Ltd company and comply with existing requirements

As regards you point on adding to the Thai economy, I think you are over estimating the contribution in this case to the Thai economy, as it has very little to do with why Thailand is deemed prosperous today, I would suggest the contribution is insignificant, granted "real tourism" contributes significantly.

A farang living "permanently" in Thailand on tourist visa's, hustling a buck online to finance their lives in Thailand from a studio condo in BKK is contributing very little IMHO

[Soutpeel]

If I am working for doctor in the USA as a transcriber (which I do over the internet) and living in Thailand, would I need a WP then. I was planning on moving to Thailand and did not think I needed it for this, but I could be wrong.

Under the current defintions answer is yes...you need a WP...legalities aside....would you get caught not having a WP, if you kept your mouth shut about what you were upto, most likely not.

Look at your statement...I am working and living in Thailand = WP required...

[tombkk]

I've always wondered how it's viewed when a CEO for an international company flies in to Bangkok to inspect the operation or whatever. Shouldn't they need a WP?

Let me give you the interpretation I got a few years ago from senior immigration/labour dept personnel, will stress its their interpretation:

The CEO/senior personnel of company X from say Singapore comes to Thailand to look at/negotiate a contract for work to be carried out in Thailand.

During business meetings/negotiations going on in Thailand it would be permissible for personnel to be "working" in Thailand under a Non-imm B only, as in this case would fall under the Non-imm B definitions of " possibility of doing business" in Thailand.

Once the contract is signed and personnel start arriving from Singapore to fullfill this contract and are "based" in Thailand for the duration of the contract a Non-imm B + WP is required.

Personnel visiting from the office in Singapore periodically ie the CEO to assess progress of the project or attend meetings would be permitted to attend these meetings on a Non-imm B only

Singapore was not a good example as they are also a member of ASEAN and as such are likely to fall into a different category.

Signatories to the ASEAN-Australia_New Zealand Free Trade agreement have different opportunites available to them. The Australian government issues an ASEAN card (do not remember name), to qualifying busomess people, which grants automatic 90 VISAs on arrival allowing business to be conducted without a work permit.

I believe you mean the APEC card. This applies to passport holders of APEC member countries, not country of residence. So the "CEO from Singapore" might be eligable if he carries a Singaporean (or otherwise APEC) passport, not if he, for example, is a EU citizen and just happens to be based there.

That said, there might be another regulation in the AANZ treaty that I am not aware of.

[featography]

If I am working for doctor in the USA as a transcriber (which I do over the internet) and living in Thailand, would I need a WP then. I was planning on moving to Thailand and did not think I needed it for this, but I could be wrong.

Under the current defintions answer is yes...you need a WP...legalities aside....would you get caught not having a WP, if you kept your mouth shut about what you were upto, most likely not.

Look at your statement...I am working and living in Thailand = WP required...

After reading all the posts, and the translation of the law, I conclude that the list of Cannot Do's without a WP would stretch from Laos to Malaysia. The list of Can Do's can be written on a matchbook cover;

Can clean your own home

Can chase women

Can drink to oblivion

Soooooo, maybe thats why there are so many guzzling, girl chasing, hang belly farangs living here. I hold the govt totally responsible.

[Nuff Said]

My apologies if this matter has been raised earlier, but does moderating this forum constitute working?

[Soutpeel]

I believe you mean the APEC card. This applies to passport holders of APEC member countries, not country of residence. So the "CEO from Singapore" might be eligable if he carries a Singaporean (or otherwise APEC) passport, not if he, for example, is a EU citizen and just happens to be based there.

That said, there might be another regulation in the AANZ treaty that I am not aware of.

I personally have never come across any rules/regulations under the Thai laws relating to APEC cards, not saying they are not there, just never seen them or even a topic during discussions with immigration/labour dept through the years, might be a topic to raise during the next meeting, at the tail end of the year

[Jimbo]

My apologies if this matter has been raised earlier, but does moderating this forum constitute working?

Of course it would

[stander]

I am curious does a professional sports person such as golfers and tennis players, with their caddies, coaches etc, who comes here to compete for money need a WP?

[Arkady]

I don't know how it works in the U.K. or other countries, but in the U.S. any money you earn in the U.S., whether it be from online trading or any other online business, gets taxed by the IRS if the money comes from the U.S. regardless of where you actually reside. My comments are not about justifying tax evasion or anything like that; I'm assuming that in any case, taxes are being paid. If you're assuming the opposite, then we're talking about two very different things I think.

And from what I understand, many of us actually would love to be taxed by Thailand, since that's essentially a prerequisite towards citizenship here. It's just that you can't get the work permit to do this, and so therefore you can't pay the taxes because if you did, it's like wearing a sign that says "I'm breaking the law by making money without a work permit!" Trading stocks online is the perfect example. How is Thailand going to issue you a work permit to do something that it is in no way involved in, and that you can do from anywhere in the world? Why would it do this, when that would just send you away to spend your income in some other country?

Let's remember that taxes or no, Thailand wins every time any of us bring money into it from the outside. It adds to their economy. It's one of the reasons why Thailand is so prosperous today.

Now somebody brought up the case where somebody does work here in Thailand but, using the Internet, gets paid offshore, and so the ruse is that they didn't displace a Thai worker in the process, and I get it why Thailand wants to go after these guys. But I don't think anyone here is trying to defend that.

Regarding investment income in the US and UK, you are not quite correct. Tax on dividends is withheld from non-residents in both jurisdictions but capital gains tax is waived, also in both the US and the UK. US citizens and green card holders, of course, have to pay tax on global income regardless of where they reside. To be eligible for the waiver on US capital gains non-residents, who are also not US citizens or green card holders, have to complete IRS form W8-BEN. Former UK residents need to seek HMRC's approval to get out of the UK tax net. Nowadays this is not easy to do for retirees or others, who have not left the UK to work and be taxed elsewhere, and without this exemption they are still liable for UK capital gains tax. For non-UK citizens who have never been UK tax residents the exemption is automatic.

You are most welcome to pay Thai tax on any earnings from overseas. In fact, if you reside in Thailand for more than 180 days in a tax year on any type of visa, you are obliged to pay tax on any income earned overseas that you remit to Thailand within 12 months of earning it and you don't need a work permit to do this. However, this does not help you qualify for Thai citizenship. For this you need tax receipts for three years on income from a job in Thailand with a salary of not less than B80k pm, or B40k pm for males married to a Thai national. Those not married to a Thai need to be permanent residents first.

Edited January 10, 2011 by Arkady

[New2LOS]

I have not read all of the posts, so maybe somebody answer this already. Can you get a WP with a non-resident O visa if you already have a O visa, or do you have to cancel the O visa and get a B visa?

[Soutpeel]

I have not read all of the posts, so maybe somebody answer this already. Can you get a WP with a non-resident O visa if you already have a O visa, or do you have to cancel the O visa and get a B visa?

Yes you can on an "O" visa, but not on the "O-A", there is nothing in the rules which says you can't get a WP on an "O", but as always down to local interpretation by the local offices, some will not do it on an "O" and tell you to go and get a "B", some companies will make you get a "B" as well

[New2LOS]

I have not read all of the posts, so maybe somebody answer this already. Can you get a WP with a non-resident O visa if you already have a O visa, or do you have to cancel the O visa and get a B visa?

Yes you can on an "O" visa, but not on the "O-A", there is nothing in the rules which says you can't get a WP on an "O", but as always down to local interpretation by the local offices, some will not do it on an "O" and tell you to go and get a "B", some companies will make you get a "B" as well

What is the difference between an O and an O-A visa? And while I'm at it, is there an age restriction on a WP? I heard something about 60, but it is ok to work past 60 if working under a contract - whatever than means.

[Soutpeel]

I have not read all of the posts, so maybe somebody answer this already. Can you get a WP with a non-resident O visa if you already have a O visa, or do you have to cancel the O visa and get a B visa?

Yes you can on an "O" visa, but not on the "O-A", there is nothing in the rules which says you can't get a WP on an "O", but as always down to local interpretation by the local offices, some will not do it on an "O" and tell you to go and get a "B", some companies will make you get a "B" as well

What is the difference between an O and an O-A visa? And while I'm at it, is there an age restriction on a WP? I heard something about 60, but it is ok to work past 60 if working under a contract - whatever than means.

O-A is a retirement visa.

Yes you can work after 60, however they may require you to do an annual medical as well to be issued a WP...know quite a few guys in the O&G on the "wrong" side of 60 still working, think the oldest is/was 72

[smiling mantis]

As regards you point on adding to the Thai economy, I think you are over estimating the contribution in this case to the Thai economy, as it has very little to do with why Thailand is deemed prosperous today, I would suggest the contribution is insignificant, granted "real tourism" contributes significantly.

If this is true, then why does Thailand issue one-year extensions based on retirement? All retirees do is spend their foreign-sourced income in Thailand.

[Soutpeel]

As regards you point on adding to the Thai economy, I think you are over estimating the contribution in this case to the Thai economy, as it has very little to do with why Thailand is deemed prosperous today, I would suggest the contribution is insignificant, granted "real tourism" contributes significantly.

If this is true, then why does Thailand issue one-year extensions based on retirement? All retirees do is spend their foreign-sourced income in Thailand.

Thailand is not alone in issuing retirement visa's, I am not suggesting that retiree's money doesnt contribute to the economy of Thailand it does, but believe you are over estimating the importance to the Thai economy, retiree's money and money spent by the internet "businessmen" has not made Thailand prosperous as you suggested in the your original post.

Would they really miss it if it went away most likely not, granted some areas of Isaan my suffer..

If there was significant contribution, I am pretty sure Thailand would be marketing Thailand as a "hub" for overseas retiree's and making the requirements easier and permission to stay longer....ie similar to "my second home" program in Malaysia, where you can get yourself a 10 year visa.

Under the current rules retiree's are tolerated, but I am pretty sure there would be individuals in goverment who would like to see this visa type disappear completely as has happened in other countries.

[smiling mantis]

I am not suggesting that retiree's money doesnt contribute to the economy of Thailand it does

Which is precisely what I said. Thanks.

[tombkk]

I am curious does a professional sports person such as golfers and tennis players, with their caddies, coaches etc, who comes here to compete for money need a WP?

Yes. And they do get one, very much like international show artists such as singers or bands giving concerts.

I believe I mentioned the temporary work permit in this thread (was it another thread?), it's issued within a day and usually applied for before their arrival.

[tombkk]

I believe you mean the APEC card. This applies to passport holders of APEC member countries, not country of residence. So the "CEO from Singapore" might be eligable if he carries a Singaporean (or otherwise APEC) passport, not if he, for example, is a EU citizen and just happens to be based there.

That said, there might be another regulation in the AANZ treaty that I am not aware of.

I personally have never come across any rules/regulations under the Thai laws relating to APEC cards, not saying they are not there, just never seen them or even a topic during discussions with immigration/labour dept through the years, might be a topic to raise during the next meeting, at the tail end of the year

I know a number of people who have the APEC card. It allows visa-free entry to the other member countries. With my EU passport, I cannot apply for it, but my Australian friends travel to China or Vietnam without having to apply for a visa.

[sabaijai]

International film production teams are issued WPs regularly without non-immigrant visas as long as the shoot lasts less than 15 days. 'Emergency' doesn't come into it, it's SOP. As tombkk mentioned, the crew does not have to be present to be issued WPs, ie a local coordinator can arrange the permits in advance or the company can do it via fax.

"Emergency" is a term we use for this WP, its not the official name, as typically we bringing someone in on an emergency basis to carry out work, and correct personnel concerned do not have to be present and the permits can be arranged in advance and via email,

Who is 'we'? The official name is temporary work permit.

[Nuff Said]

The definition of what constitutes working in Thailand will always be a vauge one because its not always easy to draw a line between working, and simply carrying out ones personal everyday business and affairs.

The word 'personal' is difinitive in my opinion. Take the following. Which, if any, would you consider to constitute 'working'.

1. A foreigner decorating a condominium that is in his own name.

2. A foreigner decorating a condominium that he 'owns' in a Thai company name.

3. A foreign tenant decorating, at the request of the owner, Thai or foreigner, it doesn't matter, a condominium that is rented to him, in return for a rental free month.

Answers, in my opinion.

1. No.

2. Maybe

3. Yes.

I was also hoping that one of the Mods would respond to my earlier posting regarding whether moderating this forum constitutes working, assuming that the mod is actually in Thailand when performing this role.

[Ginkas]

My answers to the three questions would be:

1. No

2. Yes. He is working for the Thai company which owns the condo.

3. Probably. The rental free month tips the balance.

[Nuff Said]

My answers to the three questions would be:

1. No

2. Yes. He is working for the Thai company which owns the condo.

3. Probably. The rental free month tips the balance.

1. I think it would be difficult for anyone to say anything but 'no' to to this as its your own personal property.

2. If I was asked pushed for an answer I would side with you and say 'yes'. In the eyes of the Thai authorities the condo is Thai ownned, regardless of whether its an individual or company.

3. It has to be yes. Its not the tenants property, the months rent is in effect payment, albeit in kind, and there is no way that a foreigner could get a work permit for such activities, even if he wanted one, as the construction trades are restricted to Thai's only.

The fact that the work would be carried out behind closed doors would make it difficult for immigration to detect, but the principle remains the same.