Trespassing Case 'Has No Bearing' On Cambodia Border Dispute

[webfact]

Trespassing case 'has no bearing' on Cambodia border dispute

By Supalak Ganjanakhundee

The Nation

Convicting the seven Thai nationals for trespassing in Cambodia would not overrule Thailand's right to claim sovereignty over the disputed border area near Sa Kaew's Ban Nong Chan, where the men were caught, Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva and legal experts said yesterday.

The Cambodian court's ruling on the case would only be binding for individuals who were involved in the case, but would never be a reference point for boundary demarcation, he said.

Seven Thai nationals, including an MP from the ruling Democrat Party, Panich Vikitsreth, and yellow-shirt activist Veera Somkwamkid were arrested by Cambodian officials last week while inspecting the disputed area.

In his testimony, Panich told the Cambodian court that he had crossed the border by accident. Information from the Royal Thai Survey Department and the Foreign Ministry indicates that the group had only gone 55 metres into Cambodian territory.

Veera and other activists insist that this area belongs to Thailand because Thai authorities issued land titles for local residents a long time ago. Veera and his group were arrested at the same site last August.

The area in question has been occupied by Cambodians who fled from civil war at home in the late 1970s and refused to return after the war.

This border location had been demarcated more than a century ago, when Cambodia was a French colony, but the boundary pillars in the area were destroyed or removed. The two countries have not yet reached common ground as to exactly where the boundary pillars were.

Worry is growing in Thailand that Cambodia will take advantage of the case to claim sovereignty over the area.

Legal expert Panas Tassaneeyanond, meanwhile, said the Cambodian court had the authority to rule on each individual's guilt in accordance with Cambodian law but such a ruling had no binding on the boundary line with Thailand.

"Legally speaking, the ruling is specifically bound to each individual in the case," Panas said on a television programme.

Meanwhile, secretary to the foreign minister Chavanond Intarakomalyasut said the case should be kept separate from the boundary issue because the two countries had a joint boundary committee to handle the dispute. The Cambodian court's ruling should have no legal implication on the matter, he said.

The main argument in the case of the seven Thais jailed in Phnom Penh is whether they entered Cambodian territory unintentionally, he said.

Separately, Army chief Prayut Chan-ocha responded to allegations that the military was too weak to deal with Cambodia over the border dispute by saying that the issue should be settled through negotiations and that it would take time.

"With both sides claiming the same location, we cannot say who has lost it to whom, but we do have to say that we need to live together peacefully and with mutual respect," he said.

"The military does not fear anyone. We have the duty to protect our motherland. If it is clear that it is our land, we will not allow any invasion, but while it is still unclear, we will have to talk with our neighbours," he said.

A group of yellow-shirt activists met with officials at the Foreign Ministry yesterday asking the ministry to help them pay a visit to their colleagues in prison.

The court finished the first round of testimony on Thursday and their lawyer will submit a bail request on Monday. The court will then take five days to consider the request.

-- The Nation 2011-01-08

[asiawatcher]

The whole demarcation issue can be resolved fairly easily if both sides compromised. But if the original boundary markers are no longer there surely there are such things as survey maps if the Cambodians only came at the territory in the 1970's. I don't believe because Thailand issued land titles (which they can prover through the Ministry of Lands) it means the land belonged to Thailand but on the opposite side, it appears Cambodians became squatters so it is all very weird. I guess time will tell.

[Thailand]

"A group of yellow-shirt activists met with officials at the Foreign Ministry yesterday asking the ministry to help them pay a visit to their colleagues in prison."

Simple way to do that is to deliberately trespass as their colleagues did.

[NCFC]

Except that Panich was filmed making a phone call saying that he was on Cambodian territory and wanted the Prime Minister's personal secretary to know that. Which kind of

a: refutes that he didn't know where he was

b: that he wandered onto the land by mistake, crossing over barbed wire to do so

c: that in his mind, it was Cambodian soil

Why was he making the call, though? Was he following orders from Bangkok, or was he just trying to drag the PM into the story??

[jayjay0]

The whole thing just go's to show that Thailand and Cambodia are doing quite nicely. They are in discussion over disputed points. No military action. When seven Thai's crossed knowingly illegally on to Cambodia soil The Thai Government did not try to impose its will on Cambodia. Instead said if they have broken your laws punish them accordingly it is of no concern of our's.:jap:

It would seem the big problem between the two countries wears yellow and closes down airport's.:cheesy:

[mkawish]

You are definitely much mistaken, very much like most of us.

After having watched the 20+ minutes long video, it does appear that

Panich categorically stated that they were searching for Land Marker #46

which pegged inside Thailand territory somewhere closeby....

Panich merely said that he was crossing into Camb occupied ground....

which several of us mistakenly thought that he was crossing into Camb territory....

If Panich et al were searching for Land Marker #46 and they were inside or closeby the

former Camb refugee camp, then the 7 were still on Thailand territory ....

There is a major difference here which I sincerely hope should clarify the issue for many who are still with open mind....

More importantly then, the 7 were really being kidnapped from Thailand territory by the Camb soldiers as it appeared on the full length video tape which differs significantly from the short abbreviated and doctored 1 minute version on youtube.

But several Thai ministers from various ministries including, defense, foreign affairs and security.... all condemning the 7 as having crossing over and encroaching on Camb territory which in actuality the Cambodian refugee themselves were sitting on Thailand territory by the graceful provision of Thailand when she was approached and begged by the international communities and international redcross to show mercy on the fleeing Cambodians around 1980.

Sincerely hope, it is clearer now regarding whose territory it really belongs to regarding Land Marker #46 and the patch of land where Camb camp situates. Thx everyone for being more than patient.

Response to Q1:

Furthermore, on the full length video posted on Thaivisa, Panich was on his phone asking "Kiew (?) to relay to SomKiat, the PM secretary, that he (Panich) was now crossing over into Cambodian occupied territory. Positively, Panich knew exactly where he was which was inside the Cambodian occupied land which differs significantly from Cambodian territory.

Response to Q2:

Panich was searching for Land Marker #46 which appeared to be his major mission. The Land Marker #46 lies within Thai territory somewhere closeby the Camb refugee camp ground which even the ministers of defense, foreign affairs and security have all but forgotten that the Camb refugee came to Thailand around 1980 and settled upon that piece of land which then and now still belongs to Thailand, even though these ministries were trying to give it away to Husan and other Camb.... in exchange for whatever....

Response to Q3:

Yes, most definitely. Panich was fully cognizant that the land they crossed over is presently occupied by the Cambodians and that it is Cambodians occupied soil.

But the fact of the matter is, even though it is a piece of, among several other patches, Cambodians soil;

but that and several other pieces, even though they are referred to as Cambodian soils but this piece of

Cambodian soil, among several other pieces of Cambodian occupied soil dotted along Thailand territory,

are not Cambodian territory by any stretch of imagination, all these pieces of Cambodian occupied soil or territory as I sometimes referred to, are Thailand properties as the international communities and international red cross society would vouch for that.

Response to last question:

Panich stated in the video that the PM Apisit was aware of this fact finding mission but other PM deputies were totally in the dark at the time.

Cheers and good night, everyone.

Except that Panich was filmed making a phone call saying that he was on Cambodian territory and wanted the Prime Minister's personal secretary to know that. Which kind of

a: refutes that he didn't know where he was

b: that he wandered onto the land by mistake, crossing over barbed wire to do so

c: that in his mind, it was Cambodian soil

Why was he making the call, though? Was he following orders from Bangkok, or was he just trying to drag the PM into the story??

Edited January 8, 2011 by mkawish

[phiphidon]

You are definitely much mistaken, very much like most of us.

After having watched the 20+ minutes long video, it does appear that

Panich categorically stated that they were searching for Land Marker #46

which pegged inside Thailand territory somewhere closeby....

Panich merely said that he was crossing into Camb occupied ground....

which several of us mistakenly thought that he was crossing into Camb territory....

If Panich et al were searching for Land Marker #46 and they were inside or closeby the

former Camb refugee camp, then the 7 were still on Thailand territory ....

There is a major difference here which I sincerely hope should clarify the issue for many who are still with open mind....

More importantly then, the 7 were really being kidnapped from Thailand territory by the Camb soldiers as it appeared on the full length video tape which differs significantly from the short abbreviated and doctored 1 minute version on youtube.

But several Thai ministers from various ministries including, defense, foreign affairs and security.... all condemning the 7 as having crossing over and encroaching on Camb territory which in actuality the Cambodian refugee themselves were sitting on Thailand territory by the graceful provision of Thailand when she was approached and begged by the international communities and international redcross to show mercy on the fleeing Cambodians around 1980.

Sincerely hope, it is clearer now regarding whose territory it really belongs to regarding Land Marker #46 and the patch of land where Camb camp situates. Thx everyone for being more than patient.

Response to Q1:

Furthermore, on the full length video posted on Thaivisa, Panich was on his phone asking "Kiew (?) to relay to SomKiat, the PM secretary, that he (Panich) was now crossing over into Cambodian occupied territory. Positively, Panich knew exactly where he was which was inside the Cambodian occupied land which differs significantly from Cambodian territory.

Response to Q2:

Panich was searching for Land Marker #46 which appeared to be his major mission. The Land Marker #46 lies within Thai territory somewhere closeby the Camb refugee camp ground which even the ministers of defense, foreign affairs and security have all but forgotten that the Camb refugee came to Thailand around 1980 and settled upon that piece of land which then and now still belongs to Thailand, even though these ministries were trying to give it away to Husan and other Camb.... in exchange for whatever....

Response to Q3:

Yes, most definitely. Panich was fully cognizant that the land they crossed over is presently occupied by the Cambodians and that it is Cambodians occupied soil.

But the fact of the matter is, even though it is a piece of, among several other patches, Cambodians soil;

but that and several other pieces, even though they are referred to as Cambodian soils but this piece of

Cambodian soil, among several other pieces of Cambodian occupied soil dotted along Thailand territory,

are not Cambodian territory by any stretch of imagination, all these pieces of Cambodian occupied soil or territory as I sometimes referred to, are Thailand properties as the international communities and international red cross society would vouch for that.

Response to last question:

Panich stated in the video that the PM Apisit was aware of this fact finding mission but other PM deputies were totally in the dark at the time.

Cheers and good night, everyone.

So what do you make of this, the same 21 minute tape that you watched and translated (presumably) with a different take on the video. I'm curious.

Was the YouTube clip edited to remove context?

By Bangkok Pundit Jan 07, 2011 7:00AM UTC

6 Comments and 11 Reactions

In response to the videos that were uploaded on YouTube the other day quoting Democrat MP Panich who was arrested last week for illegally entering Cambodia telephoning his secretary to pass on details to an aide to Abhisit to say he was now in Cambodia amongst other statements, Abhisit held a press conference the other day and said in response to questions from reporters:

Have you watched the video clip?

Yes, I have. The clip should be more than four minutes long. The person who posted it on YouTube cut it to a little over one minute.

[Mr Panich] said [in the uncut version of the clip] he believed he was in Thai territory and heading for boundary marker No.46.

We should not make an assumption from the cut version of the video clip [in which Mr Panich was seen speaking on the phone] that he was going into Cambodia and that I was aware of it.

Will this clip make it more difficult for the government to help the seven Thais who were arrested?

There is no indication there will be a problem. I have ordered relevant agencies to follow this issue closely.

Foreign Minister Kasit [Piromya] went to Cambodia and was given the video clip, which lasted more than 20 minutes.

We brought the video back and sent a Thai official on Dec 31 to go to the areas shown in the video [with the cooperation of the Cambodian authorities] to find the exact location where the Thai people were arrested.

Officials tried to locate the area on maps the next day but the existing maps lack the detail of roads and geographic conditions, which makes the identification difficult.

BP: BP has been puzzled by this. If at one point, Panich refers to them being in Thailand, how does that exactly change when he also clearly states at another point he was in Cambodia. They were walking at times near a border and in a 21 minute clip could cover some distance so it quite reasonable to assume that at some points they on Thai soil and at other points on Cambodian soil. The question is, were they in Cambodia? And did they knowingly enter Cambodia? Nevertheless, Abhisit who says that his government has seen the clip and that implies that the clip has been altered to create a misleading impression. Well, now the

has been uploaded to YouTube – there is no precise confirmation that this is the clip, but it is 21 minutes long and well we have Panich and Veera so can't see any reason for any doubt:

Below is a brief summary with some comments:

Just after the 2 minute stage there is mention of no Thais being in the area, around the 4 minute stage you have Veera stating (to a third party on the telephone) that they will keep on walking until they are arrested, then at the 8 minute stage you have Veera, Panich and another person talking once they come across a marker. Then you have the third party say "if we cross this, are we in Cambodia?". Veera responds saying while pointing and looking past the marker "it is Thai territory, but it has been taken by Cambodia. It has been seized as per the 1:200,000 map"…"Thais can only go to here [where the marker is]". Then, Veera adds "If we keep on walking, we will get arrested for sure".

BP: At this point one thinks they will stop and turn back, but instead they walk on into what Veera stated was now deemed Cambodian territory.

At the 12 minute mark, you have Veera referring to the Border Police and referring to one officer who can help them if they get arrested as he helped him last time. Then after this they come across a (Cambodian?) villager who says this is a Cambodian village. They then continue walking and come across plenty of Cambodian signs and see other Cambodians, they buy something to drink. Then, at the 19 minute mark, they meet what appears to be some security official.

BP: How can Abhisit honestly say the clip was edited and context was removed? Now, maybe he hoped the clip wouldn't be released, but it was. Now, BP understands why Panich earlier stated he believed he was in Thai territory although the belief is that it should be Thai territory, but he actually knew it is Cambodian territory. Can we stop with this façade that they didn't knowingly enter Cambodia? If you watch the video,you will see they knew they were entering Cambodia and even had an awareness that they would face some problems or get arrested. However, they had the mistaken belief that it wouldn't matter and if they got arrested, they could negotiate their way out. Pure arrogance and political stupidity.

Actually, you realized after watching this, why Abhisit's rhetoric last week of release them immediately has now changed to refusing to offer any comment on the situation and Panitan and Kasit going on TV on Tuesday night on Channel 11 to distance Abhisit from Panich. You also realize that the Cambodians, who have also watched the footage, decided that they would not just let them off with a warning. It isn't the case that they just accidentally strayed too far across the border. They knew where they were going and they went anyway.

[samran]

Except that Panich was filmed making a phone call saying that he was on Cambodian territory and wanted the Prime Minister's personal secretary to know that. Which kind of

a: refutes that he didn't know where he was

b: that he wandered onto the land by mistake, crossing over barbed wire to do so

c: that in his mind, it was Cambodian soil

Why was he making the call, though? Was he following orders from Bangkok, or was he just trying to drag the PM into the story??

if you speak Thai - and it is clear that you don't - then you'll understand from the context of the conversation that they still belive they are on Thai territory, albeit terriory 'occupied' by Cambodians.

[Credo]

The point is that the border is not demarcated. They were on the side of the line that is controlled by Cambodia. That would mean that Cambodian authorities have jurisdiction.

[Buchholz]

Except that Panich was filmed making a phone call saying that he was on Cambodian territory and wanted the Prime Minister's personal secretary to know that. Which kind of

a: refutes that he didn't know where he was

b: that he wandered onto the land by mistake, crossing over barbed wire to do so

c: that in his mind, it was Cambodian soil

Why was he making the call, though? Was he following orders from Bangkok, or was he just trying to drag the PM into the story??

if you speak Thai - and it is clear that you don't - then you'll understand from the context of the conversation that they still belive they are on Thai territory, albeit terriory 'occupied' by Cambodians.

Thanks for clarifying for the hang 'em high brigade.

And thanks to mkawish for his valuable contributions that also made many clarifying points.

The point is that the border is not demarcated. They were on the side of the line that is controlled by Cambodia. That would mean that Cambodian authorities have jurisdiction.

If the border is not demarcated, it actually means jurisdiction is muddled.

.

Edited January 9, 2011 by Buchholz

[geovalin]

You are definitely much mistaken, very much like most of us.

After having watched the 20+ minutes long video, it does appear that

Panich categorically stated that they were searching for Land Marker #46

which pegged inside Thailand territory somewhere closeby....

Panich merely said that he was crossing into Camb occupied ground....

which several of us mistakenly thought that he was crossing into Camb territory....

If Panich et al were searching for Land Marker #46 and they were inside or closeby the

former Camb refugee camp, then the 7 were still on Thailand territory ....

There is a major difference here which I sincerely hope should clarify the issue for many who are still with open mind....

More importantly then, the 7 were really being kidnapped from Thailand territory by the Camb soldiers as it appeared on the full length video tape which differs significantly from the short abbreviated and doctored 1 minute version on youtube.

But several Thai ministers from various ministries including, defense, foreign affairs and security.... all condemning the 7 as having crossing over and encroaching on Camb territory which in actuality the Cambodian refugee themselves were sitting on Thailand territory by the graceful provision of Thailand when she was approached and begged by the international communities and international redcross to show mercy on the fleeing Cambodians around 1980.

Sincerely hope, it is clearer now regarding whose territory it really belongs to regarding Land Marker #46 and the patch of land where Camb camp situates. Thx everyone for being more than patient.

Response to Q1:

Furthermore, on the full length video posted on Thaivisa, Panich was on his phone asking "Kiew (?) to relay to SomKiat, the PM secretary, that he (Panich) was now crossing over into Cambodian occupied territory. Positively, Panich knew exactly where he was which was inside the Cambodian occupied land which differs significantly from Cambodian territory.

Response to Q2:

Panich was searching for Land Marker #46 which appeared to be his major mission. The Land Marker #46 lies within Thai territory somewhere closeby the Camb refugee camp ground which even the ministers of defense, foreign affairs and security have all but forgotten that the Camb refugee came to Thailand around 1980 and settled upon that piece of land which then and now still belongs to Thailand, even though these ministries were trying to give it away to Husan and other Camb.... in exchange for whatever....

Response to Q3:

Yes, most definitely. Panich was fully cognizant that the land they crossed over is presently occupied by the Cambodians and that it is Cambodians occupied soil.

But the fact of the matter is, even though it is a piece of, among several other patches, Cambodians soil;

but that and several other pieces, even though they are referred to as Cambodian soils but this piece of

Cambodian soil, among several other pieces of Cambodian occupied soil dotted along Thailand territory,

are not Cambodian territory by any stretch of imagination, all these pieces of Cambodian occupied soil or territory as I sometimes referred to, are Thailand properties as the international communities and international red cross society would vouch for that.

Response to last question:

Panich stated in the video that the PM Apisit was aware of this fact finding mission but other PM deputies were totally in the dark at the time.

Cheers and good night, everyone.

Except that Panich was filmed making a phone call saying that he was on Cambodian territory and wanted the Prime Minister's personal secretary to know that. Which kind of

a: refutes that he didn't know where he was

b: that he wandered onto the land by mistake, crossing over barbed wire to do so

c: that in his mind, it was Cambodian soil

Why was he making the call, though? Was he following orders from Bangkok, or was he just trying to drag the PM into the story??

I'm so tired to read such post and Cambodians are so lenient with crazy Thais who wants to provoke...

Fortunately Khmer are more quiet than Thai hysterical nationalists.

I understand that Thai Nationalists want a war (they told it frankly), probably because it's fun but PLEASE play these dirty games in your territory. Do not involve Cambodians, they already enjoyed that in the 70's and 80's. Let them quiet in their country for the time being.

If the yellows want a war, why not a good ol' civil war with the reds?

[Buchholz]

If the yellows want a war, why not a good ol' civil war with the reds?

All the Reds in Cambodia would have to come back first.

[NCFC]

Except that Panich was filmed making a phone call saying that he was on Cambodian territory and wanted the Prime Minister's personal secretary to know that. Which kind of

a: refutes that he didn't know where he was

b: that he wandered onto the land by mistake, crossing over barbed wire to do so

c: that in his mind, it was Cambodian soil

Why was he making the call, though? Was he following orders from Bangkok, or was he just trying to drag the PM into the story??

if you speak Thai - and it is clear that you don't - then you'll understand from the context of the conversation that they still belive they are on Thai territory, albeit terriory 'occupied' by Cambodians.

If you think my Thai language skills are lacking then I am in good company as today's online version of the The Other English-Language Newspaper states "Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva knew Democrat MP Panich Vikitsreth had intruded on Cambodian territory before Mr Panich and six other Thais were arrested by Cambodian soldiers, video footage posted on YouTube shows."

Sorry, can't post the links as it's not allowed here, but you can find it easily enough