Thai Firms Say Red Shirt Protests Threaten Jobs

[jdinasia]

Chai also disputed a claim by red-shirt leader and opposition Pheu Thai MP Jatuporn Promphan that the leaders had coordinated with the Ratchaprasong retailers before each of their previous demonstrations there.

"Never," the businessman said.

Duly noted and logged as Red Shirt Leader cum Pheu Thai Party MP Jatuporn's Lie Number # 4,239

.

But, really ..... they are protesting for Democracy! (Whilst ignoring the rights of others and using weapons.....)

Again, the right to protest is a democratic right. The right to protest in an intersection that blocks access to businesses, a hospital, and cross city transportation is NOT a democratic right. It tramples on the rights of others. If the red shirt leaning foreigners on the board think they want justice and democracy, then they must realize that it is utter hypocrisy to trample on the rights of others in the attempt. Those of us that see the reds as an insurgent group, tend not to think that the reds are about anything other than Thaksin and $$.

Aznyron --- You seem to be missing not just THE point, but any point. (Remember that your writing will be more clear if you use "there their they’re" properly ... but with the number of typos in my recent posts I am hardly one to talk

[rubl]

Actually, recent CONFESSIONS have put name/names to many of the attacks. Red/red allied/ronin ... call them what you will. It was the reds.

I believe it was the red "ronin" behind most of the attacks. But you shouldn't put too much store in CONFESSIONS. How many times do you see someone confess and then when it goes to court they say they're not guilty and were forced to confess?

Or the case where someone got a vist from PTP-ers and withdrew his willingness to cooperate with investigations

Anyway your comment too general and therefor less relevant. Better to ask details like

- how many have been arrested 'bomb / grenade' related

- how many confessed

- how many deny

- how many withdrew their confession

- how many complained about being manhandled / forced.

[rubl]

The reds are out there to demand justice and democracy. Why would the business owners worry when the tourists are exceeding 15.6 millions last year? The TAT expects a significant increase in tourism this year with all the promotions going on. Tell the business owners to not panic.

you forget the sarcasm smiley surely?

Must be, it's all bold

[timekeeper]

maybe the business owners should resort to a little private enterprise

let them rally and then send in Chuwit Kamolvosit and his 600 spartans to get them out.........

[webfact]

ASTV: Ratchaprasong traders will meet with red shirt leaders tomorrow at 2 P.M. At Metropolitan Police headquarters /TAN_Network

[HerbalEd]

In democracies groups have a right to demonstrate. Mostly the organizers and the police will setup a meeting to discuss subject, route, attendance, limitations, security issues, first-aid preparations/stations, start/stop time, etc., etc. This to ensure a peaceful rally with minimal disturbance.

If the Ratchaprasong business people don't like being singled out for protests they should start talks with police and rally organizers to reach a compromise.

Democracy is action, you've got to love it

The business people have already talked to the police to no avail. Also, they have talked to the rally organizers several times and the organizers refuse to alter their rallies. Why can't the protestors rally somewhere else sometimes? Why do they rally in the same place all the time ... many times over and over. Democratic demonstrations are a good think but not when a large group of businesses and their employees have to suffer over and over.

[HerbalEd]

I do not know if there are permits required for this. I did point how it was handled by authorities and protesters in CM. I do feel it is a shame that the groups who want to rally would not be mature enough to consider the business and the inconvenience they cause others and then the authorities would only be needed for monitoring, not enforcement.

Yes, I consider it a privilege to use/have access to facilities paid for by taxpayers or the private sector when I am using them.

A further note, It appears it takes about 10 to 12 BIB to set up a motorcycle check, what number would be required to enforce a no march zone against 20,000 to 30,000 demonstrators?

Actually I think the red shirt higher-ups deliberately cause disruption of government, civil life, businesses, poor workers, etc. as a means of "semi-legal"(?) revolution.

[whybother]

The retailers could do to the red shirts what the villagers at the Cambodian border are doing to the yellow shirts.

No one would complain about that would they?

[HerbalEd]

I'm sure when the airport was taken over by the yellows, you thought .".if the protests inconvenience those who are able to fly, screw them . There are more important issues at stake ??"

Am I right?? .....Thought not.

That is exactly what some anti-Thaksin farang said at the time. "There are more important issues than your stupid holiday!" etc. Of course, missing a flight is far more serious than not being able to shop for a while on Sundays. Of course, if government would speed up the crackdown investigation results, trials of red shirt leaders (or their release on bail) and the election, we wouldn't be talking about this.

Don't you remember that in a spirit of compromise Abhisit offered an early election if the red shirts would disperse? But they acted like impudent children and with no counter-compromise the red shirts continued to insist upon immediate elections and refused to go home. What a pity. Had they taken Abhisit's offer the violence, destruction, loss of jobs and international loss of face would not have happened and those early elections would have already taken place. What stupidity.

BTW, excluding the naive allegiance to Taksin of many (most?) red shirts, and their violence-leaning leaders, I actually support the original purpose of their demonstrations. There are way too many poor Thai farmers and workers who are getting a very bad deal from the government, bankers and big-business, massive corruption, etc and things definitely need to change to remedy this. However, the red shirts took a very wrong turn and thus many died and bled in the streets while Taksin watched from the safety and comfort of his five-star hotel.

Edited January 13, 2011 by HerbalEd

[HerbalEd]

a note to you expats we are guest in this country & I am not sure we are wanted guest I do know they like our money that why they charge us more than a thai so hear me the red shirts protest is none of your business if they love thaksin that there business I know I hate the banks world wide because they are corrupt & the elected officials world wide are there puppets so if you find your self being put out because of demonstrators that just tough crappo for you I do not feel for you what I do feel for is those who suffer because of lost jobs & being ignored by the Government so if they get 500 baht to demonstrate good for them the slave owners only pay them 200 baht a day & they got to bust there azz for it / I remember the last one I had booked a flight to go back to the USA months earlier & was caught up in it I could not get a flight from Udon to BKK & my wife would not take the train fear of being stuck some were between udon & BKK so we drove to the airport was stop many times by BIB I was not angry even with that inconvenience I was in agreement with those who demonstrated I got my plane & departed to the USA when I returned 4 weeks later it was over GOD bless the people they are the ones who get raped from the elite bankers & politicians & slave owners of business

Regarding your statement "I do feel for is those who suffer because of lost jobs & being ignored by the Government" .... do you feel the same for the many workers who lost ... and continue to lose ... their livelihood because of the red shirts and whose pleas continue to be ignored by the red shirt leaders?

[Pi Sek]

Gof7

Only 7? Who are they?

Truethailand's "Gof7: is just the petulant cry of someone that can't actually discuss the events in question and that whines about the rules. BTW -- he described it in another thread as a "Gang of Seven" that post in all the redshirt threads and control the agenda of a thread stifling neutral voices like his --- he later admitted that he wasn't neutral at all.

Direct to tt- your little "Gof7" posts do show an inability to either discuss the events or deal with the fact that posts, once made, are subject to comments from other posters that may well see things differently than you, or be able to counter all of your points and show them to be flawed. If you really want to have a place where you can discuss anything at all and not get called on it when you get it wrong then I think you will have to create such a space for yourself. Those of us actually in Thailand and dealing with the results of the redshirt's armed insurrection and seeing things like people's businesses, jobs, families, and lives damaged by people that don't even understand the concept of democracy will probably speak out about what we see as wrong.

The people living in the ratprasong area do have the right NOT to live with bi-monthly protests by a group that has shown themselves to be extremely violent in the past (and whose current leader has stated that they will not cooperate with the government.

These protests need to be shunted to a location that does not hurt others, or shut down.

Bullmerke --- the people's compassion ended about the first time the reds started firing grenade launchers as a form of protest. It was certainly gone by the time that the reds burnt Bangkok. It is yet another thing the reds should be ashamed of. That they have beaten the sense of compassion out of many people, leaving those people feeling that whatever happens to the reds is just 'instant karma' for their violence.

Not so sure it was the Reds who were actually firing those grenade launchers. Recent reports indicate otherwise.

jdinasia's reply to the first post is a cracking one... "beaten the sense of compassion out of many people" is a poignant way of putting it, but undeniably true.

Really, I couldn't believe it when Jatuporn said it was the govt burning down CentralWorld, but just a month or so ago I saw it proposed by a poster on here, in true "all we want is democracy" and "we are not terrorists" UDD fashion (it might have even been you!).

But now we have pro-reds arguing that the govt was the one firing grenades? Which report? I call your bluff, my friend.

I'd love to know who this Gang of 7 are too.

[Pi Sek]

a note to you expats we are guest in this country & I am not sure we are wanted guest I do know they like our money that why they charge us more than a thai so hear me the red shirts protest is none of your business if they love thaksin that there business I know I hate the banks world wide because they are corrupt & the elected officials world wide are there puppets so if you find your self being put out because of demonstrators that just tough crappo for you I do not feel for you what I do feel for is those who suffer because of lost jobs & being ignored by the Government so if they get 500 baht to demonstrate good for them the slave owners only pay them 200 baht a day & they got to bust there azz for it / I remember the last one I had booked a flight to go back to the USA months earlier & was caught up in it I could not get a flight from Udon to BKK & my wife would not take the train fear of being stuck some were between udon & BKK so we drove to the airport was stop many times by BIB I was not angry even with that inconvenience I was in agreement with those who demonstrated I got my plane & departed to the USA when I returned 4 weeks later it was over GOD bless the people they are the ones who get raped from the elite bankers & politicians & slave owners of business

aznyron - I've always claimed that, if you have a Thai dependant or are a shareholder in a Thai company, then Thai politics is your business. I really think you have to accept that. Otherwise, what kind of parents or businesspeople would we be?

The BIB are on the side of the amataya are they? Or are they on Thaksin's side? Or is Thaksin an amataya? I realise you live in Udon and, from my very conclusive knowledge and experience in the province, I can see that pro-Thaksin support is pretty much split down the middle these days (unlike 2 years ago, where it was 90% for him). But these three questions are something you should ask yourself.

Lastly, and I hate to be finicky about spelling and grammar but I think it's warranted here... please take more care when typing, as your post is hard to understand (especially without the basic punctuation).

[steveromagnino]

Since the Srivikorns (pimol srivikorn) were part of trt and being that they and many of the other rsta owners personally know and would have the ability to contact some very senior red shirt people (even those who deny any connection with the red shirts) we can probably assume they already have tried that. Without success one presumes.

Let's recall that in april 2010 when they first went to ratchaprasong, the red shirt leaders claimed to have the support of the landlords at that time. And therefore they stated they were basically welcome to protest there given they were causing no problems to the landlords.

While it may seem reasonable to protest peacefully, perhaps some examples of what is reasonable are required.

Is it reasonable I protest outside your home blocking the entrance for 1 hour a year? How about 2 hours? How about a year without break? No?

Should my protest allow me to make u close your business in your home while I set up my own businesses outside your doorstep and trade without paying municipal taxes or probably annual taxes? And by businesses I don't just mean louis vuitton. I mean the night market sole traders who operate each evening in front of the malls. And by staff I mean thousands of shop staff and service staff paid by the hour, many of whom are never sure whether to work or not, because I say I will occupy one area, then simply overun the borders agreed.

Should my protests be allowed to expand in scope or scale without prior notice, so for instance a hotel planning a function 2 months in advance using your house, with multiple suppliers, all have to be cancelled with 4 hours notice as my protest is suddenly overrunning the area agreed to in advance?

Do I have any obligation to tell u even what I am doing? After all, you are very rich, u have a house. I merely have the scraps of a few billion.

Should my protest cause be that since some people died mean that no matter how little the people living in your house have to do with some people dying outside your house, that when you ask me to consider moving or changing the nature of my protest, I ask you to petition authorities on my behalf regarding the deaths, even though you have no real connection with the past deaths except for a few injuries in the past when I burned down some of your buildings, looted others and forced you to pay me (illegally) to access your house the last time I peacefully occupied the land outside your house with your alleged consent.

Should I shorten this sentence above?!

Under the 1997 and 2007 constitutions there are guidelines on what is acceptable. Why are there not protests at other locations- it is simply because this gambit is aimed at causing maximum disruption to bangkok; it is not about grieving only, or about freeing leaders.

This is a basic political gambit since peua thai is leaderless and they lost 4 out of 5 byelections when expecting to win 4 out of 5. This is the new replacement for rallies in stadiums, except they run their own economy in their protests (they sell and buy etc etc) without taxes and leave a nice mess that the bma cleans up.

And now the 8000b-20,000b a month shop staff who lose wages (or for big c staff aren't even back at work yet) are the amartaya since some are asking for the protesters to go elsewhere.

The cheek!!!

[Buchholz]

The retailers could do to the red shirts what the villagers at the Cambodian border are doing to the yellow shirts.

No one would complain about that would they?

If the retailers don't, the Reds could justifiably protest against them for "double standards."

[toenail]

If the city officialst doesn't have the *alls to place ANY POLITICAL GROUP in a more reasonable area that doesn't interfere with the daily lives of its citizens when demonstrating,. then I don't care what happens. They can't be proactive about anything... OH, i forgot, "YES WE CAN"

[samtam]

How Britain deals with "unruly behaviour", on the basis of a phenomenon called "The Rule of Law":

"The Met polices thousands of public events each year and makes significant efforts to engage with organisers to ensure the safety of everyone.

"What we have released today is the unlawful side of protest. An individual throws what appears to be a petrol bomb, putting others in clear danger.

"Another young man is seen committing acts of suspected violent disorder in Parliament Square, attempting to cause damage to shops and attacking the Royal Convoy.

"We saw, this week, a young man with no criminal history sentenced to a substantial term of imprisonment for throwing a fire extinguisher off the roof of Millbank Tower.

and further here:...in The Daily Telegraph.

Edited January 13, 2011 by samtam

[truethailand]

Gof7

Only 7? Who are they?

You're pulling my leg, go on, you know really, I dont want give you a clue its too easy then. Its good this game. Shall we call it 'Spot the nation mod bod' Its your turn I'll count to ten.....

[truethailand]

Only 7? Who are they?

Truethailand's "Gof7: is just the petulant cry of someone that can't actually discuss the events in question and that whines about the rules. BTW -- he described it in another thread as a "Gang of Seven" that post in all the redshirt threads and control the agenda of a thread stifling neutral voices like his --- he later admitted that he wasn't neutral at all.

Direct to tt- your little "Gof7" posts do show an inability to either discuss the events or deal with the fact that posts, once made, are subject to comments from other posters that may well see things differently than you, or be able to counter all of your points and show them to be flawed. If you really want to have a place where you can discuss anything at all and not get called on it when you get it wrong then I think you will have to create such a space for yourself. Those of us actually in Thailand and dealing with the results of the redshirt's armed insurrection and seeing things like people's businesses, jobs, families, and lives damaged by people that don't even understand the concept of democracy will probably speak out about what we see as wrong.

The people living in the ratprasong area do have the right NOT to live with bi-monthly protests by a group that has shown themselves to be extremely violent in the past (and whose current leader has stated that they will not cooperate with the government.

These protests need to be shunted to a location that does not hurt others, or shut down.

Bullmerke --- the people's compassion ended about the first time the reds started firing grenade launchers as a form of protest. It was certainly gone by the time that the reds burnt Bangkok. It is yet another thing the reds should be ashamed of. That they have beaten the sense of compassion out of many people, leaving those people feeling that whatever happens to the reds is just 'instant karma' for their violence.

Not so sure it was the Reds who were actually firing those grenade launchers. Recent reports indicate otherwise.

jdinasia's reply to the first post is a cracking one... "beaten the sense of compassion out of many people" is a poignant way of putting it, but undeniably true.

Really, I couldn't believe it when Jatuporn said it was the govt burning down CentralWorld, but just a month or so ago I saw it proposed by a poster on here, in true "all we want is democracy" and "we are not terrorists" UDD fashion (it might have even been you!).

But now we have pro-reds arguing that the govt was the one firing grenades? Which report? I call your bluff, my friend.

I'd love to know who this Gang of 7 are too.

Not sure about you...you're borderline but go on I'll let you play... go and get your fetching khaki camouflage number.. I 'll wait for you. Its pointless trying to express an opinion on here anymore unless it in support of certain peoples view. It makes me sleep better to try and take the p1ss out of them. Surely these people know that most viewers here know what they are doing. Oh by the way ' I would love to know who the gang of 7 are too' would indicate to many that you r one of them but not me. Over too you

[truethailand]

Gof7

Only 7? Who are they?

Truethailand's "Gof7: is just the petulant cry of someone that can't actually discuss the events in question and that whines about the rules. BTW -- he described it in another thread as a "Gang of Seven" that post in all the redshirt threads and control the agenda of a thread stifling neutral voices like his --- he later admitted that he wasn't neutral at all.

Direct to tt- your little "Gof7" posts do show an inability to either discuss the events or deal with the fact that posts, once made, are subject to comments from other posters that may well see things differently than you, or be able to counter all of your points and show them to be flawed. If you really want to have a place where you can discuss anything at all and not get called on it when you get it wrong then I think you will have to create such a space for yourself. Those of us actually in Thailand and dealing with the results of the redshirt's armed insurrection and seeing things like people's businesses, jobs, families, and lives damaged by people that don't even understand the concept of democracy will probably speak out about what we see as wrong.

The people living in the ratprasong area do have the right NOT to live with bi-monthly protests by a group that has shown themselves to be extremely violent in the past (and whose current leader has stated that they will not cooperate with the government.

These protests need to be shunted to a location that does not hurt others, or shut down.

Bullmerke --- the people's compassion ended about the first time the reds started firing grenade launchers as a form of protest. It was certainly gone by the time that the reds burnt Bangkok. It is yet another thing the reds should be ashamed of. That they have beaten the sense of compassion out of many people, leaving those people feeling that whatever happens to the reds is just 'instant karma' for their violence.

Sorry got to answer the pile of dung.. typical red broke his promise and was a naughty boy. You write like a reporter, distorting many facts or mis quoting them. Politically I am neutral, socially I am not neutral.. equal opportunity for all, non negotiable. Said before cant discuss this issue without breaking the rules.. you know and I know it and you abuse that fact that there is certain things we cant discuss without breaking rules. No problem. For this reason sometimes my arguments appeared flawed so I appear unknowledgable. Its the same people responding to my posts. Unless you are a Thai (which you maybe) I have most probably lived here as long as you but for sure I have been here long enough to know how this country works. For once just seperate Thaksin from the reds and comment on peoples desire and struggle to give their children a better life than they have, dont skirt around the weak points of your arguments Lets debate the social issue in Thailand and not the politics. Stop using words like siege, violent terrorist, insurgent and the host of words which over emphasize a small minority of the red movement. if we can debate the social issue and keep out of politics you will find me more than a worthy adversary but if you insist on doling out the same script to others non supportive of your agenda I will endeavour to extract the urine out of your comments. Though I may not succeed as you, appear a reasonably witty and intelligent chap, I will rest my head on the pillow with a smile.

[rubl]

begin removed ...

For once just seperate Thaksin from the reds and comment on peoples desire and struggle to give their children a better life than they have

.. end removed

I think many know how to separate k. Thaksin from the reds, but I don't think the reds know how to. Neither k. Thaksin by the way.

Fortunately we can indeed comment on peoples struggle for a better future for their children. That has no real relation with either k. Thaksin or most of the reds.

[jdinasia]

begin removed ...

For once just seperate Thaksin from the reds and comment on peoples desire and struggle to give their children a better life than they have

.. end removed

I think many know how to separate k. Thaksin from the reds, but I don't think the reds know how to. Neither k. Thaksin by the way.

Fortunately we can indeed comment on peoples struggle for a better future for their children. That has no real relation with either k. Thaksin or most of the reds.

LOL.

The reds = Thaksin. tt has an agenda. tt refuses to acknowledge the fact that the reds have been extremely violent, have been working an insurgency, and many of them are in jail for terrorism. He ignores the calls for violence from the red stages etc ....

If the reds disassociated themselves with people that do violence in their name. If they disassociated themselves with Thaksin. If they denounced violence in all its forms. THEN we could have the discussion tt wants. Sadly they won't so the discussion will be about a violent minority faction of Thai politics that are being used by one set of elite against another set of elite.

[hammered]

begin removed ...

For once just seperate Thaksin from the reds and comment on peoples desire and struggle to give their children a better life than they have

.. end removed

I think many know how to separate k. Thaksin from the reds, but I don't think the reds know how to. Neither k. Thaksin by the way.

Fortunately we can indeed comment on peoples struggle for a better future for their children. That has no real relation with either k. Thaksin or most of the reds.

or the MPs of the PTP who actusally exploit the poor far more than anyone in say the Democrat party who are pretty exploiitative themselves, but as they control your access to loans, mills, and even life or death you have to kind of vote for them

Indeed people can discuss people's struggles and at a low disorganised level Im sure that happens even in the red movement but as soon as you get to any organised level and slot in leaders who get their positions from above (as Sombat pointed out) you get agenda and issue control from groups who have their own interests rather than the peoples. Sad really. A red movement outside the organised red movement and a geuine grass roots movement where leaders came from the people would be a genuine move forward. Wont happen

[jdinasia]

or the MPs of the PTP who actusally exploit the poor far more than anyone in say the Democrat party who are pretty exploiitative themselves, but as they control your access to loans, mills, and even life or death you have to kind of vote for them

Indeed people can discuss people's struggles and at a low disorganised level Im sure that happens even in the red movement but as soon as you get to any organised level and slot in leaders who get their positions from above (as Sombat pointed out) you get agenda and issue control from groups who have their own interests rather than the peoples. Sad really. A red movement outside the organised red movement and a geuine grass roots movement where leaders came from the people would be a genuine move forward. Wont happen

Absolutely! I don't think many people on TVF have issue with helping the rural poor. Increased infrastructure spending etc ... But many people have major issues with the Reds/PTP/Jatuporn/Arisaman etc. Even with Thida. How can you separate Thaksin from the reds when Thaksin manages their income streams and has "phone-ins"? You can't.

BTW --- when I say the rural poor ---- I don't just mean the poor in khonkaen and other parts of isaan, I mean the rural poor all over Thailand. N,S,E,W! They do deserve better but the issues as hammered rightly points out is not where tt would like to put it. The issue is the local patronage system. Hopefully Abhisit will make some inroads into breaking that up.

[Pi Sek]

Not so sure it was the Reds who were actually firing those grenade launchers. Recent reports indicate otherwise.

jdinasia's reply to the first post is a cracking one... "beaten the sense of compassion out of many people" is a poignant way of putting it, but undeniably true.

Really, I couldn't believe it when Jatuporn said it was the govt burning down CentralWorld, but just a month or so ago I saw it proposed by a poster on here, in true "all we want is democracy" and "we are not terrorists" UDD fashion (it might have even been you!).

But now we have pro-reds arguing that the govt was the one firing grenades? Which report? I call your bluff, my friend.

I'd love to know who this Gang of 7 are too.

Not sure about you...you're borderline but go on I'll let you play... go and get your fetching khaki camouflage number.. I 'll wait for you. Its pointless trying to express an opinion on here anymore unless it in support of certain peoples view. It makes me sleep better to try and take the p1ss out of them. Surely these people know that most viewers here know what they are doing. Oh by the way ' I would love to know who the gang of 7 are too' would indicate to many that you r one of them but not me. Over too you

I somehow think you are slightly delusional, or you were on a beer day yesterday

Regardless of who is on the Gang of 7, I'd still like to know your take... you seem pretty sure, or at least sure enough to keep on with it for more than a day. I have tacitly watched the nature of some posters - good and bad, right and wrong, red and yellow - and have my own opinions and conclusions, I'd enjoy hearing yours.

[Emptyset]

Don't you remember that in a spirit of compromise Abhisit offered an early election if the red shirts would disperse? But they acted like impudent children and with no counter-compromise the red shirts continued to insist upon immediate elections and refused to go home. What a pity. Had they taken Abhisit's offer the violence, destruction, loss of jobs and international loss of face would not have happened and those early elections would have already taken place. What stupidity.

BTW, excluding the naive allegiance to Taksin of many (most?) red shirts, and their violence-leaning leaders, I actually support the original purpose of their demonstrations. There are way too many poor Thai farmers and workers who are getting a very bad deal from the government, bankers and big-business, massive corruption, etc and things definitely need to change to remedy this. However, the red shirts took a very wrong turn and thus many died and bled in the streets while Taksin watched from the safety and comfort of his five-star hotel.

Actually, they didn't continue to insist on immediate elections. They accepted the offer as long as three demands were fulfilled: PTV back on air, Suthep handing himself in to the police & naming the exact house dissolution date. Abhisit thought they were screwing him around and decided to refuse to negotiate further. Not saying either side were right or wrong. In my opinion, both were wrong, reds should've been biting his hand off to take it, especially as many in the crowd seemed quite satisfied. And some of the more hardline leaders were willing to throw spanners in the works, so even if the government fulfilled the demands, who can say for sure they wouldn't make further demands? But I don't think their demands particularly unreasonable either.

Reds lost and lost badly. Like you say, not only did it result in many more deaths, but also them being branded as terrorists and almost entirely discredited. They didn't get any of their original demands. At least some of the anger and frustration should be directed at their own leaders imo.

Certainly agree with your second paragraph. Thaksin was shopping in Paris whilst his people were being gunned down in the streets, wasn't he? I spoke to one person that feels utterly betrayed by him but is still committed to the red shirts. I wonder if there are more like that?

[Insight]

Certainly agree with your second paragraph. Thaksin was shopping in Paris whilst his people were being gunned down in the streets, wasn't he? I spoke to one person that feels utterly betrayed by him but is still committed to the red shirts. I wonder if there are more like that?

Judging by the turnout to his phone in last Sunday, I doubt it.

[Emptyset]

Absolutely! I don't think many people on TVF have issue with helping the rural poor. Increased infrastructure spending etc ... But many people have major issues with the Reds/PTP/Jatuporn/Arisaman etc. Even with Thida. How can you separate Thaksin from the reds when Thaksin manages their income streams and has "phone-ins"? You can't.

Some say Thida wasn't happy with the phone-in either (neither was Sombat as already mentioned on here). If you believe what Manager says, Thida and Jatuporn hate each other, but many of the UDD prefer Jatuporn because of his aggressive behavior, taking on the courts etc. Something Thaksin wouldn't even dare to do. Interestingly yellow leaning types seem to really fear Thida (they call her "Comrade Poon") much more than Jatuporn, who they consider a clown. I'm not sure about that. Whilst Thida is probably more dangerous to the status quo in the long run, there's no doubt that Jatuporn's antics are popular amongst red shirts. Personally, I'd like to see Jatuporn jailed. I've actually started to wonder if he's not being kept out of jail for some particular reason? Arisman is irrelevant, thank god.

Manager also says that Comrade Poon has sworn away from the strategy of violence (the Maoist strategy of vanguard, people's army, masses), in fact her new "horizontal" schools will partly focus on re-educating red shirts to be peaceful. Some other comrades, like Comrade Surachai from Daeng Siam aren't happy about this, apparently. They still favour a violent approach and think the system needs to be smashed, as opposed to Thida who wants to work within it. This is why some that favour violence won't accept Thida as UDD leader.

Personally I think a lot of this is yellow shirt propaganda (you probably know Manager is owned by Sondhi) and nonsensical rumours designed to discredit the UDD, I'm still not convinced they decided to use this violent Maoist strategy in the first place. I mean undoubtedly they were using some Maoist organizational theory, I even remember one leader saying this explicitly at the start of the rally. But they sat down as a collective and planned out the violence? Hard to believe. I believe if the violence was planned or part-planned by leaders, it was more likely the non ex-jungle people that planned it without the knowledge of Weng etc. People that've known them for years say doubt that they'd approve of such violent acts. I know Nattawud is close to some military people that are also close to Thaksin, so he could well've been in the know, if not the one that planned some of the violence.

Edited January 14, 2011 by Emptyset

[Emptyset]

Judging by the turnout to his phone in last Sunday, I doubt it.

Or by the response to it... they might've got a similar crowd without a phone-in, but from the response, you can safely assume he's still widely loved and cherished as a hero.

[SomTumTiger]

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For once just seperate Thaksin from the reds and comment on peoples desire and struggle to give their children a better life than they have

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I think many know how to separate k. Thaksin from the reds, but I don't think the reds know how to. Neither k. Thaksin by the way.

Fortunately we can indeed comment on peoples struggle for a better future for their children. That has no real relation with either k. Thaksin or most of the reds.

No reason to put Khun in front of Thaksin's name - a more fitting would be Prisoner #72952344 When that day comes, it will be a good one.

[Buchholz]

According to the other paper, the two sides (Red Shirts and RSTA) have agreed to meet and discuss the issue, but a potential stumbling block is Red Shirt President Thida who continues to insist the Red Shirts will rally on January 23 at Ratchaprasong.

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Edited January 14, 2011 by Buchholz