House Book. Tabien Bahn

[Firefan]

Ok; my Tabien Bahn story sofar. Own condo here. Never saw any book (be it blue/yellow or a copy of same) when bought. Got a bunch of papers together: passport w. visa(non-em B ), adress certification from embassy, buy/sell contract, title deed, pics, letter from condo management (and copies of all).

Of to the Amphur office (Bangkok) where I explained my situation. Info girl send me to next door office. In there the blue book was created in minutes based on my title deed only......

Ah but while I do not read Thai (yet) I at least have learned to read my name in Thai - and as I walked out (for lunch - nice noodles close by) I checked the book - and sure enough; just the book and my name not in it.

Back to info girl who checked and date stamped+another stamp for the: passport copy, buy/sell contract and the embassy adress confirmation and got me a waiting number.

Waited 20 min and came to counter where girl looked over my docs while giggling and said I had to go to the next door office (where I got the blue book initially... ) and talk to the same guy who made my book...

There I explained that I would like to get my name IN the book .

The guy there seemed to look over the docs (and copies stamped by info girl and signed by me) and asked me what I do in Thailand . "Nothing, besides owning a condo and looking for investment oppurtunities but have a small company overseas" I said.

He then said he needed "embassy certification" - I showed him the stamped copy, after which he said he wanted the original, I supplied same with a friendly smile and he then again looked through the papers...

THEN he decided that he wanted a witness! Huh!? Followed by him changing his mind and saying TWO witnesses! In person! At least ONE of them had to speak both English and Thai, they had to be more than 20 years old, they had to be Thai, both had to know me (a bit) and they had to bring their ID cards.....

Holy smoke!

I called my building manager and got him to verify the need with the officer. Also got the officers name card and for some reason his mobile phone number written on the back (an offer for a gift expected?).

I thanked many times (before some idiot poster talks about me being rude or dressed like a backpacker ).

The saga will continue tomorrow as my building manager and a staff will join me in the pursuit of the magical blue book!

Ps. not a word about the YELLOW book (which is what some people here say is the only book a foreigner can get into) yet - but who knows what will pop up tomorrow!?

Edited August 30, 2005 by Firefan

[doctormann]

Ok; my Tabien Bahn story sofar. Own condo here. Never saw any book (be it blue/yellow or a copy of same) when bought. Got a bunch of papers together: passport w. visa(non-em B ), adress certification from embassy, buy/sell contract, title deed, pics, letter from condo management (and copies of all).

Of to the Amphur office (Bangkok) where I explained my situation. Info girl send me to next door office. In there the blue book was created in minutes based on my title deed only......

Ah but while I do not read Thai (yet) I at least have learned to read my name in Thai - and as I walked out (for lunch - nice noodles close by) I checked the book - and sure enough; just the book and my name not in it.

Back to info girl who checked and date stamped+another stamp for the: passport copy, buy/sell contract and the embassy adress confirmation and got me a waiting number.

Waited 20 min and came to counter where girl looked over my docs while giggling and said I had to go to the next door office (where I got the blue book initially... ) and talk to the same guy who made my book...

There I explained that I would like to get my name IN the book  .

The guy there seemed to look over the docs (and copies stamped by info girl and signed by me) and asked me what I do in Thailand  . "Nothing, besides owning a condo and looking for investment oppurtunities but have a small company overseas" I said.

He then said he needed "embassy certification" - I showed him the stamped copy, after which he said he wanted the original, I supplied same with a friendly smile and he then again looked through the papers...

THEN he decided that he wanted a witness! Huh!?    Followed by him changing his mind and saying TWO witnesses! In person! At least ONE of them had to speak both English and Thai, they had to be more than 20 years old, they had to be Thai, both had to know me (a bit) and they had to bring their ID cards.....

Holy smoke! 

I called my building manager and got him to verify the need with the officer. Also got the officers name card and for some reason his mobile phone number written on the back (an offer for a gift expected?).

I thanked many times (before some idiot poster talks about me being rude or dressed like a backpacker ).

The saga will continue tomorrow as my building manager and a staff will join me in the pursuit of the magical blue book!

Ps. not a word about the YELLOW book (which is what some people here say is the only book a foreigner can get into) yet - but who knows what will pop up tomorrow!? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And the very best of luck!

If your experience is anything like mine, with the Banglamung Amphur in Pattaya, expect to be given the run-around big time. Every time that you go back they will want something that you haven't provided yet - and when you provide it they will want something else!

The bottom line seems to be that unless you are Thai or have achieved permanent residence status you are not going to get your name in the Blue Book. In the Yellow Book, yes, but just try to get them to provide a Yellow Book. In theory it can be done - in practice it seems to be a tad difficult. I've given up on mine at the moment as the consensus seems to be that there's no real advantage in having a Yellow Book, except that you might avoid paying some tax if you sell the property.

Cheers

DM

[icecubes]

Firefan,2005-08-30 16:41:39]

Don?t bother about the Tabien bahn.

You don?t need your name in it for any reason in Thailand.

Every thing you may need to do regarding your condo

Can be done with your condo papers.

As for avoiding Tax how would you avoid That. over a tabien bahn.

You can put your wife, Girlfriend, Boy friend on your Tabian ban if you wish.

This lets them renew there Id card, Driving license and to Vote in any election.

In the same province of the Tabien bahn this avoids the need to travel all the way to there original home usually the other end of the country.

As for the Yellow version of this, what good is that, it will always be treated with suspicion

So what?s the point in having this. ( if you ever get one issued )

My advice stick the Tabian ban in the draw and forget about it.

Its for Thai citizens not us.

Have a nice day.

[Smokin Joe]

I agree with icecubes that the blue book is not of any real use although it will be interesting to see if you can get one. If your only investment in the process is your time then no reason not to pursue it. Just don't let it piss you off if things don't work out.

I have three nice blue books, all blank. Two are for a one bedroon condo that was initially built as two studios. My current condo I had to go get the blue book after purchase as we didn't gewt one from the previous owner. As a matter of fact we went to get it after being told by the electric company we needed it to put the electric bill in my name so maybe it can be of some help although others have said it wasn't needed for them.

I may try carrying one in my traveling bag to show when flying back on a one-way ticket or return portion of a round trip. I have been questioned about not having onward tickets a few times, just this month coming back from Singapore. My Non-O visa has got me thru each time but if I showed my "Residency Booklet" it might make it even easier. A Thai would know what it was but my hardest time getting thru with a one-way ticket was a JAL flt from Hawaii with an American check-in agent.

[Firefan]

Docmann; yeah I read your posts with interest and I agree not much use for the book except: less sales tax if sell before owned 5 years+at least one gov document with your ADDRESS on it for use towards banks/utility company/check in counters aborad for adress verification, potential Thai buyer EXPECTING to see a book and so forth.

(Ups - that turned out to be quite a lot of advantages - ESPECIALLY if one is not having a work permit solving most of above problems).

Icecubes: believe the tax issue was answered above.

Smoking Joe: yeah - I must be a masocist as I do it all with a smile - and as the many smileys in my original post indicate; it does not piss me off at all (ok the witness thing required a Red Horse beer, my first, very good! and Cheap!).

My saga continued yesterday: came with building manager and guard from building as witnesses (not sure what they had to wittness... presume simply that I live in my place...).

Officer had some questions about WHY I wanted it - I mentioned the tax reasons and that everybody else in Thailand had one.

Questions seemed to be focused on whether I ACTUALLY lived there...

After a bunch of weird questions (some of them in Thai to my building manager - do I have a girl friend Etc..) he agreed to issue the yellow book (as predicted color now changed!) for me!!

A lot of typing (directly into various computer systems) in 2 different rooms and checking of spelling Etc. later (about 1 hour) we could then leave and I am supposed to pick up my yellow book next week!

I can come alone to pick it up - so doubt any more trouble ahead but...TIT! So will keep you posted....

Next challenge: my Thai drivers license! (This settling in thing is a full time job when doing it all myself!).

Cheers!

[doctormann]

Docmann; yeah I read your posts with interest and I agree not much use for the book except: less sales tax if sell before owned 5 years+at least one gov document with your ADDRESS on it for use towards banks/utility company/check in counters aborad for adress verification, potential Thai buyer EXPECTING to see a book and so forth.

(Ups - that turned out to be quite a lot of advantages - ESPECIALLY if one is not having a work permit solving most of above problems).

Icecubes: believe the tax issue was answered above.

Smoking Joe: yeah - I must be a masocist as I do it all with a smile - and as the many smileys in my original post indicate; it does not piss me off at all (ok the witness thing required a Red Horse beer, my first, very good! and Cheap!).

My saga continued yesterday: came with building manager and guard from building as witnesses (not sure what they had to wittness... presume simply that I live in my place...).

Officer had some questions about WHY I wanted it - I mentioned the tax reasons and that everybody else in Thailand had one.

Questions seemed to be focused on whether I ACTUALLY lived there...

After a bunch of weird questions (some of them in Thai to my building manager - do I have a girl friend Etc..) he agreed to issue the yellow book (as predicted color now changed!) for me!!

A lot of typing (directly into various computer systems) in 2 different rooms and checking of spelling Etc. later (about 1 hour) we could then leave and I am supposed to pick up my yellow book next week!

I can come alone to pick it up - so doubt any more trouble ahead but...TIT! So will keep you posted....

Next challenge: my Thai drivers license! (This settling in thing is a full time job when doing it all myself!).

Cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, you seem to have got a bit further than I have. It will be interesting to see whether the Yellow Book will actually be there when you go to collect it. Please keep me informed.

Getting the driving licence is no problem at all. The procedure is pinned at the top of this forum.

DM

[Firefan]

He,he - yes will see how it goes next week!

Not so worried about the drivers license - but want to obtain my international drivers license from home country first to ease the procedure. Cheers!

[roiet]

He,he - yes will see how it goes next week!

Not so worried about the drivers license - but want to obtain my international drivers license from home country first to ease the procedure. Cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Obtained my thabian ban yellow showing 2 witness.. signing the 3 page document that I live in my place. Had to show a long term visa. This is written in the law book.

With the thabian ban yellow, international licence and passport I obtained my thai driver licence in 15 minutes.

PS: Tabian ban yellow helps a lot. Thai driver licence helps more.

[Firefan]

Roiet; I agree. For people not working here (no work permit) the more other official papers with our name on we can get the better!

Any other documents one can obtain (with some effort) besides the tabien bahn and the drivers license?

Cheers!

[icecubes]

Docmann; yeah I read your posts with interest and I agree not much use for the book except: less sales tax if sell before owned 5 years+at least one gov document with your ADDRESS on it for use towards banks/utility company/check in counters aborad for adress verification, potential Thai buyer EXPECTING to see a book and so forth.

(Ups - that turned out to be quite a lot of advantages - ESPECIALLY if one is not having a work permit solving most of above problems).

Icecubes: believe the tax issue was answered above.

You seam to be correct about the Tax issue.

As for the rest you mentioned above. No you don?t.

But why would anyone sell there dream home a few years after buying it?

Or are we buying and selling condos for a profit ?????

Is that what this is all about?

Have a nice day.

[Firefan]

Hi Icecubes,

I think we agree; the book is not REALLY needed (as mentioned here before) but it is a "nice to have" thing for sure - for the reasons mentioned.

I fully understand that some do not bother to get the book considering the hassle involved.

Not planning to sell currently - but who knows about the future? If I ever sold I would certainly aim for a profit!

Cheers!

[icecubes]

Hi Icecubes,

I think we agree; the book is not REALLY needed (as mentioned here before) but it is a "nice to have" thing for sure - for the reasons mentioned.

I fully understand that some do not bother to get the book considering the hassle involved.

Not planning to sell currently - but who knows about the future? If I ever sold I would certainly aim for a profit!

Cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I understand.

Hope you make a modest profit if you do

Have a nice day

[Firefan]

Hurrah! Went to the Amphur again to pick up my book as agreed - the officer slapped his head when he saw me while mumbling something about "just a moment" (he obviously had forgotten to make the yellow tabien bahn book with my name in it). "Never mind" I said, and one hour later I walked out with 2 books. New Blue one with the address in it, and new yellow one with both address AND my name in it!

Of to soi Thonglor for a beer to celebrate! Cheers!

[Firefan]

Forgot to mention that not a single Baht or bottle of Piper's had to change hands. Not even any official fees. Cheers!

Edited September 8, 2005 by Firefan

[Phil Clark]

From the above posts it would appear that by having a Yellow book as opposed to a Blue book means you are exempt from the 3.3% Business Tax if you sell within five years of having bought a condo.

Hmmm, I was told from two different Thai legal sources plus the Land Office that the Business Tax at 3.3% also applies to Thai nationals; the colour of your book is irrelevant, the date you bought the condo is the only item invoking the Business Tax on the sale price if you sell within five years regardless of nationality.

Of course the lips of the Thai people were moving when they told me (I always assume the obvious unless proven otherwise), so I am hardly taking their words alone as fact.

However, their reactions to the notion of a two-tiered system penalising farang who legally own a condo in their name were the same: mild amusement.

Can anyone provide a verifiable source/reference (a statute or whatever would be nice) to prove otherwise?

[Firefan]

Phil; I might be mistaken, but I believe you are concluding something which has not been said.

As far as I understand (and that is not much!) it has nothing to do with the color of the book - it is simply that one (whatever nationality) has to have been in the tabien bahn (for a certain period) to obtain the lower tax if you sell within the first 5 years of ownership.

Cheers!

[Phil Clark]

Phil; I might be mistaken, but I believe you are concluding something which has not been said.

As far as I understand (and that is not much!) it has nothing to do with the color of the book - it is simply that one (whatever nationality) has to have been in the tabien bahn (for a certain period) to obtain the lower tax if you sell within the first 5 years of ownership.

Cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, the colour of the book seems to have featured rather a lot in this thread, relevant or not!

My understanding is that the only way a farang can get their name in the Blue book is by having Residency status, whereas the only alternative to get one's name in a book is via the Yellow route. That is what the colour has to do with the subject, or so it would seem, yet I also fail to see any real relevance.

My point is that I am told there is no tax differential dependent on the name contained in the Tabien Baan or for how long it has been there whether one is Thai or not. The key factor is, so I am told, the length of legal ownership.

So, to reiterate my previous words:

Hmmm, I was told from two different Thai legal sources plus the Land Office that the Business Tax at 3.3% also applies to Thai nationals; the colour of your book is irrelevant, the date you bought the condo is the only item invoking the Business Tax on the sale price if you sell within five years regardless of nationality.

Of course the lips of the Thai people were moving when they told me (I always assume the obvious unless proven otherwise), so I am hardly taking their words alone as fact.

However, their reactions to the notion of a two-tiered system penalising farang who legally own a condo in their name were the same: mild amusement.

Can anyone provide a verifiable source/reference (a statute or whatever would be nice) to prove otherwise?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My question still remains.

[Firefan]

Yeah Phil, this thread is certainly not for the color blind!

It is a good question. You basically ask: where can I see info that confirms that getting my name in the tabien bahn will give me any tax advantage (if selling before year 5).

I do not have the answer(there is a recent thread here discussing the point and the tax reduction though), BUT it was one of the reasons I mentioned to the officer when asked WHY I wanted it. He nodded and agreed that it made sense. (Not that that proofs much ).

Cheers!

[Phil Clark]

Yeah Phil, this thread is certainly not for the color blind!

It is a good question. You basically ask: where can I see info that confirms that getting my name in the tabien bahn will give me any tax advantage (if selling before year 5).

I do not have the answer(there is a recent thread here discussing the point and the tax reduction though), BUT it was one of the reasons I mentioned to the officer when asked WHY I wanted it. He nodded and agreed that it made sense. (Not that that proofs much ).

Cheers!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's fair enough, Firefan, although he may well have thought that tax was something to do with his Prime Minister and therefore best avoided.

I would suggest he was not wrong...

Just out of interest as you appear to believe there is a possible tax break if selling a condo within 5 years, what is the source of your info?

[Firefan]

He,he - yes TIT

My real estate agent. But also discussed here on the board. Do a search for Tabien Bahn.

Just to clarify. There is no tax break for selling before 5 years unless one has been in the tabien bahn. After 5 years one can sell at the lowest tax no matter what.

BTW; there is some news out about reduced taxes no matter what. See the other thread here on that.

Cheers!

[trajan]

I was advised by a lawyer that if your name is on the household registration for at least one year, when you sell, you are exempted from the 3.3% specific business tax (which can be a chunk of change)......

alternatively, if you hold the property for more than five years (regardless of the household registration), you are also exempted from that tax...

[Firefan]

Trajan; you might be right. We seem to get contraditionary info on that subject often. Not that important to me as not planning to sell. Cheers!

[trajan]

I think the lawyer was right...

I just sold one of my condos (which I owned for just under 3 years) and the broker asked if I was on the Tabien Baan or Household Registration book.....(if I was for at least a year "I could save alot of specific business taxes on the transfer at the land office" and just pay the much smaller stamp duty amount)....unfortunately I wasnt....I am on the Tabien Baan of one of my other condos...

oh well, the buyer shared 50% of that hit so I wasnt too sad.... (the buyer was a youngish (early 30s) Thai couple by the way...no problems in buying a second hand condo...they got a bank loan and a mortgage was registered)....

[Firefan]

Trajan; thanks for the info - first time I got some first hand info on that.

I think that the younger Thai generation/working prof. are much more open to buying condos - Incl. 2nd hand condos. At least that is what all my Thai friends are telling me. Some even prefer to skip the car (I was CHOCKED! ) and instead live closer to work.

Cheers!

[trajan]

yes, Firefan I think you are absolutely correct....I had several younger generation Thai couples and singles express a serious interest in the condo (actually it is a third-hand condo since I was the 3rd owner on the title deed).....the eventual buyers wanted to move out of dad's house....I think the general mind set of the next gen Thai urban yuppies (Thyuppies?) is different...more independant minded...

plus the condo is right in the middle of everything and skytrain/subway etc. so it was convenient to everything ...

anyway, I guess the lesson is...if you have owned the condo for close to 5 years, wait just a bit more before selling and then save the 3.3% SBT tax (if not, see if its possible to get your name on the household registration to save the tax)....

[Pappiklon]

anyway, I guess the lesson is...if you have owned the condo for close to 5 years, wait just a bit more before selling and then save the 3.3% SBT tax (if not, see if its possible to get your name on the household registration to save the tax)....

The following link might be useful for calculating taxes etc with and without the book:

http://www.acuterealty.com/calculator.asp

[Firefan]

Only saw your post now - thanks for the link to the nice little calculator (they need to remove the "no withholding tax if lived in condo in year 2540"). So on a 10Mill Baht condo we are talking a saving of 330.000 Baht for the hassle of getting in the book - surely worth it for most. Cheers!

[BlackJack]

I have my name and address in both a yellow and blue house book .

To get them was a very frustrating experience as i initially just wanted to get the electricity connection changed to my name (after buying a condo). However, at the end of the day I walked out with the Yellow Book.

I was not sure of its importance.

The Household Registration Book comes Under article 97 of the Household Registration Regulations of 1992.

Yesterday after reading a case related artical in the Nation I checked my book and found that i have been issued with the Yellow Book in my name, address and also with a Thai ID 13 digit number.

So go figure.

I have to extend my Retirement visa soon and so I will be placing the Yellow book on top to test its power.

more later.

[Firefan]

Are you sure you also have your name in the BLUE book - and not just the address? At least that is what I ended up with (2 books, address in both but only NAME in the yellow book). Only permanent residents (PR) or nationals should be able to get name in blue book (as owner). But TIT - so who knows? Cheers and happy holidays!