Plea To International Criminal Court: Red Shirts Face Bumpy Road Ahead

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Plea to ICC : Red shirts face bumpy road ahead

Published on January 21, 2011

Robert Amsterdam's appointment as lead lawyer in the red shirts' attempt to seek "justice" at the International Criminal Court, may have been met with some frowns.

He is on the other hand representing someone associated with controversial Muslim deaths in Thailand's deep South, first of all, not to mention some alleged extra-judicial killings of Thai drug suspects.

Real doubts, though, must be revolving around how far this long-overdue ICC campaign by the red shirts can go, Amsterdam or no Amsterdam.

The ICC has been mentioned since the Thai political conflict caused bloodbaths in April and May last year. Every time the issue came up, however, it faded away in a hurry simply because Thailand is not a member country of the ICC, which was set up to help people fight human rights or war crimes when all else failed.

When new red-shirt leader Thida Tavornseth earlier this week announced a definite plan to sue the Abhisit government in the ICC, nothing has changed when it comes to the court's jurisdiction. The most the red shirts can aim for is for the ICC to "accept" their suit. That could be construed as a political victory, one that, however, may have the least impact on the domestic scene.

The ICC is empowered to summon suspects from member countries, numbering just a little over 100. Non-member governments, however, have been totally uncooperative. Since the court's jurisdiction deals mostly with crimes governments are accused of committing, the court's success rate concerning non-members is virtually flat.

Amsterdam has highlighted "Bangkok Massacre" on his website, referring to the deaths of protesters and alleged militants during last year's political turbulence. The possibility of the "Bangkok Massacre" going to the ICC was mentioned in a recent letter submitted by a US congressional committee asking Thaksin to "brief" the panel on Thai democracy, an invitation that was eventually cancelled.

One potential issue for the ICC to consider is the fact that not only red protesters were victims of violence. Several soldiers died last April, and not from mere bricks or stones either. In 2008, yellow-shirt protesters, rivals of the red movement, were killed in a crackdown ordered by politicians associated with Thaksin.

What preceded the 2008 and 2010 bloodbaths was similar, with anti-government protesters getting belligerent. The yellow shirts had occupied Government House and were marching to Parliament when commandos began a crackdown.

The red shirts, acting under the "If they could do it, so can we" pretext, seized key intersections and set up a virtual entrenchment allegedly guarded by armed men.

Before the May 19 crackdown that killed about 20 people, a hospital was invaded, prompting evacuation of patients, and a Skytrain station came under attack, causing casualties. In what could be a glimpse of how allegations and counter-allegations would overwhelm an ICC trial, the Department of Special Investigation claimed yesterday that while many protesters died at the hands of the military last summer, there were cases for which red militants were allegedly responsible.

How Amsterdam will address the non-red deaths or injuries in the lawsuit remains to be seen. It's also interesting how he will portray the arson spree in the afternoon of May 19 when the red shirts were scattered. In defending the Suvarnabhumi Airport seizure in 2008, the yellow shirts claimed they were desperate for justice for fellow protesters who had been killed.

Years of major political conflict mean no hand is clean in Thailand. The red shirts have the right to seek justice but such a campaign can easily be exploited, especially if suspicious characters are let through the door. If a trial could ever take place, it would be at best a contest to see which side is better at telling half-truths. At worst only blatant lies would prevail.

-- The Nation 2011-01-21

[brahmburgers]

Reminds me of a segment of a movie. It was set in a 17th century French royal court. The court jester was entertaining the royals and their entourage. The jester went on a long animated performance about how God existed. All along, the royals were smiling and enjoying the show. At the end, they all applauded. Then the jester said, matter-of-factly, he could just as easily do a performance about how God did not exist. All of a sudden, a dour pall came over the audience.

Amsterdam is like that jester. He can take any client (and cause) who pays enough, and bring to bear all his wit and smarts to convince whomever needs to be convinced of the merits of his client. However, Amsterdam could just as effectively advocate the opposite, if the money offered deemed it worthwhile for him to do so.

[siampolee]

Going by Amsterdams track record with his last prominent Russian client I certainly wouldn't pin my hopes on him and his team.

Still Amsterdam is happily milking that milch cow Thaksin.

They deserve each other. ''Birds of the feather all flock together.''

We know why lawyers wear neck-ties , its so as to hide their foreskins.

Edited January 21, 2011 by siampolee

[Siam Simon]

Reminds me of a segment of a movie. It was set in a 17th century French royal court. The court jester was entertaining the royals and their entourage. The jester went on a long animated performance about how God existed. All along, the royals were smiling and enjoying the show. At the end, they all applauded. Then the jester said, matter-of-factly, he could just as easily do a performance about how God did not exist. All of a sudden, a dour pall came over the audience.

Amsterdam is like that jester. He can take any client (and cause) who pays enough, and bring to bear all his wit and smarts to convince whomever needs to be convinced of the merits of his client. However, Amsterdam could just as effectively advocate the opposite, if the money offered deemed it worthwhile for him to do so.

That's lawyers for ya.

[timekeeper]

the government should counter sue the reds for the killing of their lawful representatives

the families should appoint a Thai lawyer, and start a class action suit against the reds for the killing of their family members whilst performing their lawful duties

they should employ a forensic accountant, apply to freeze funds of the all the red leaders and red financiers until a descion is made by the court on responsibility for the deaths

someone killed the soldiers and police on duty during the red revolution

as the reds were the main protagonist, i assume it would be easy to prove that if they hadn't been there no one would have been killed.

in this crime, as in many like it

follow the money, you will find the criminals you want......

[Buchholz]

Amsterdam has highlighted "Bangkok Massacre" on his website, referring to the deaths of protesters and alleged militants during last year's political turbulence. The possibility of the "Bangkok Massacre" going to the ICC was mentioned in a recent letter submitted by a US congressional committee asking Thaksin to "brief" the panel on Thai democracy, an invitation that was eventually cancelled.

Yeah, funny how that committee meeting in the USA (with all it's accompanying drama over an American visa for Thaksin) all dried up.

For starters, perhaps they found out that the nonsense case was never actually filed with the ICC.

The applicable portion of the invitation letter sent to Amsterdam

[gemini81]

What an insult to international courts that these red shirts would actually think the courts would perceive them as victims.

[pacovl46]

Alleged extra-judicial killings??? It's a fact and NOT an allegation!!! Bangkok massacre??? How many yellow shirts AND innocent bystanders got killed by grenades and other explosives thrown into the crowd by red-shirts! How about them? How come so many people are so stupid and actually go out on the streets to support a criminal??? Oh yeah, I almost forgot...he paid them!!! It's ridiculous!!! In any western country Mr. ex prime minister would've had to step down immediately for a fraction of what he did in Thailand, and there wouldn't have been a single person on the street supporting his cause. Thailand has a looooooooong way to go!!!

[yellow1red1]

the OP speaks of yellow deaths, non red deaths and 'similar 2008 and 2010 bloodbaths' like it was all same/same

apt ending,,, 1/2 truths and blatant lies. eg 'bloodbath in 2008'

[asiawatcher]

8 people remain unmentioned as incinerated in the Central World arson - why are the reds not being held accountable? Why are they not being mentioned?

[whybother]

8 people remain unmentioned as incinerated in the Central World arson - why are the reds not being held accountable? Why are they not being mentioned?

Actually, millions of people remain unmentioned as incinerated in Central World.

Where is there any suggestion that 8 people died in Central World? Is someone hiding it?

[Buchholz]

A very revealing interview in the other paper today with ICC Vice-President Hans-Peter Kaul, who is in Bangkok, and who provides a multitude of reasons why this:

Plea To International Criminal Court: Red Shirts Face Bumpy Road

is actually at the end of a dead end road.

Nothing will come of it is his bottom-line.

[rubl]

Interesting article with ICC Vice-President Hans-Peter Kaul.

It makes me wonder if in October 2010 a preliminary case was actually submitted. I doubt we can ask the Office of the Prosecutor where any petition would be submitted. Anyway end of this month the case will be properly submitted and the ICC can officially comment on it.

Reading more and more I'm afraid we may get a repeat of the recent court cases against the Dem's. Case thrown out because of technicalities rather than contents. Not being within the jurisdiction of the ICC might be one of the minor technical obstacles. Next

Edited January 21, 2011 by rubl

[Buchholz]

It makes me wonder if in October 2010 a preliminary case was actually submitted.

If it was submitted, it likely ended up in the trash bin, after an appropriate amount of chuckling, the same as the last plea from Thida...

Thida Thawornseth, chairwoman of the red shirt movement, said Wednesdays that she had sent a letter to the International Court of Justice in The Hague of the Netherlands asking for observation of the court trial in Thailand.

Apparently Thida is unaware that what she wants is not a function of the ICJ in The Hague, but, still, it might be good for a chuckle for whoever reviews their incoming correspondence. I'm sure they receive all sorts of lunatic letters.

Perhaps one of the younger Red Shirts could show the retired academician how to use the Internet in order to review their website and learn just what they do:

http://www.icj-cij.org/homepage/index.php?p1=0〈=en

It might save her and her organization from yet another embarrassment in a long line of embarrassments.

Edited January 21, 2011 by Buchholz

[virtualtraveller]

Sigh, would someone please tell the UDD that this man is a con artist leading them down a dead end, fruitless road, and tell Thaksin that Amsterdam is ripping them off and stringing them along.

The families of the deceased should be suing the UDD for misleading them into a martyr situation.

[MaiChai]

Yawn. This will pass without much fanfare.

[Emptyset]

the government should counter sue the reds for the killing of their lawful representatives

the families should appoint a Thai lawyer, and start a class action suit against the reds for the killing of their family members whilst performing their lawful duties

Well, given most (or many) of those responsible are already jailed and facing criminal prosecution, what would be the point of this? How could they sue the "reds" in general, anyway? It's not like it's a formal organization, although I suppose they could sue the UDD. But then they'd have to prove conclusively that the militants were working on behalf of the UDD, which they probably won't be able to do. We'll see at the trial, I suppose.

someone killed the soldiers and police on duty during the red revolution

as the reds were the main protagonist, i assume it would be easy to prove that if they hadn't been there no one would have been killed.

Or maybe a ghost did it all?

[Emptyset]

8 people remain unmentioned as incinerated in the Central World arson - why are the reds not being held accountable? Why are they not being mentioned?

One person died. And he was either a red shirt himself, and/or a looter or perhaps even an arsonist. Haven't you been keeping up to date with the news and seen the recently released pictures? No idea why people feel the need to spread rumours when the real facts are so easily accessible.

[animatic]

the government should counter sue the reds for the killing of their lawful representatives

the families should appoint a Thai lawyer, and start a class action suit against the reds for the killing of their family members whilst performing their lawful duties

Well, given most (or many) of those responsible are already jailed and facing criminal prosecution, what would be the point of this? How could they sue the "reds" in general, anyway? It's not like it's a formal organization, although I suppose they could sue the UDD. But then they'd have to prove conclusively that the militants were working on behalf of the UDD, which they probably won't be able to do. We'll see at the trial, I suppose.

someone killed the soldiers and police on duty during the red revolution

as the reds were the main protagonist, i assume it would be easy to prove that if they hadn't been there no one would have been killed.

Or maybe a ghost did it all?

Suing is a civil action for damages and compensation.

The red leaders are in jail without bail pending trials for criminal actions.

That in no way invalidates families of those that could be considered victims of their actions from also suing them and their organization for damages and compensation.

And compensation can be both financial and in form of a public statement or apologia.

[MikeOboe57]

Hmm... maybe the redshirts should have contacted Mikhail Khodorkovsky first. This former russian billionaire and businessman had allowed Mr Robert Amsterdam to join his defence team.

Amsterdam immediately started a very noisy campaign in which he portrayed Mikhail Khodorkovsky as honest businessman and friend of western democracy, who was being hunted down by the dark powers that rule Russia now. This of course was nowhere near the truth. Mikhail K. was actually a shrewd merchant who had ruthlessly plundered Russia when its economy was on offer after the commies had called it a day and anarchy ruled.

Mr Khodorkovsky did not really benefit from Mr Amsterdam's actions. On the contrary. Robert Amsterdam's constant and tiring attempts to make Khodorkovsky a mere political prisoner put his client deeper and deeper into trouble. The Russian authorities finally put an end to the Khodorkovsky case by filing a monstrous charge against him (stealing oil worth 27 bn USD) and giving him an additional 6 years behind bars.

Mr. Khodorkovsky probably curses the day he met Robert Amsterdam.

I think the Reds picked an attorney well worth their cause. (or better: Thaksin picked one for them...)

Best regards...

BTW: Robert Amsterdam is a business lawyer. He is just fiddling around in human rights (with appropriate results).

[Emptyset]

Suing is a civil action for damages and compensation.

The red leaders are in jail without bail pending trials for criminal actions.

That in no way invalidates families of those that could be considered victims of their actions from also suing them and their organization for damages and compensation.

And compensation can be both financial and in form of a public statement or apologia.

I could see how businesses affected would have a good case for suing them, but the families of those who died as a result of the MiB would require proof that these militants were directed by the UDD leaders. I don't think anyone has concrete proof of that. Whereas families of the dead suing the government, different matter, because there's a formal command structure in place and in the end the buck stops with the government.

[rubl]

8 people remain unmentioned as incinerated in the Central World arson - why are the reds not being held accountable? Why are they not being mentioned?

One person died. And he was either a red shirt himself, and/or a looter or perhaps even an arsonist. Haven't you been keeping up to date with the news and seen the recently released pictures? No idea why people feel the need to spread rumours when the real facts are so easily accessible.

Please inform dear member Siam Simon. He seems to have serious doubts as to what happened during the torching of CTW

Edited January 21, 2011 by rubl

[rubl]

Suing is a civil action for damages and compensation.

The red leaders are in jail without bail pending trials for criminal actions.

That in no way invalidates families of those that could be considered victims of their actions from also suing them and their organization for damages and compensation.

And compensation can be both financial and in form of a public statement or apologia.

I could see how businesses affected would have a good case for suing them, but the families of those who died as a result of the MiB would require proof that these militants were directed by the UDD leaders. I don't think anyone has concrete proof of that. Whereas families of the dead suing the government, different matter, because there's a formal command structure in place and in the end the buck stops with the government.

It almost sounds as 'thank God for those killed by government controlled forces, at least we can sue them'. No pity for those Army/Police chaps, or the innocent bystanders like the lady at BTS Saladaeng ?

[timekeeper]

the government should counter sue the reds for the killing of their lawful representatives

the families should appoint a Thai lawyer, and start a class action suit against the reds for the killing of their family members whilst performing their lawful duties

Well, given most (or many) of those responsible are already jailed and facing criminal prosecution, what would be the point of this? How could they sue the "reds" in general, anyway? It's not like it's a formal organization, although I suppose they could sue the UDD. But then they'd have to prove conclusively that the militants were working on behalf of the UDD, which they probably won't be able to do. We'll see at the trial, I suppose.

someone killed the soldiers and police on duty during the red revolution

as the reds were the main protagonist, i assume it would be easy to prove that if they hadn't been there no one would have been killed.

Or maybe a ghost did it all?

or fake reds..........

[Buchholz]

Hmm... maybe the redshirts should have contacted Mikhail Khodorkovsky first. This former russian billionaire and businessman had allowed Mr Robert Amsterdam to join his defence team.

Amsterdam immediately started a very noisy campaign in which he portrayed Mikhail Khodorkovsky as honest businessman and friend of western democracy, who was being hunted down by the dark powers that rule Russia now. This of course was nowhere near the truth. Mikhail K. was actually a shrewd merchant who had ruthlessly plundered Russia when its economy was on offer after the commies had called it a day and anarchy ruled.

Mr Khodorkovsky did not really benefit from Mr Amsterdam's actions. On the contrary. Robert Amsterdam's constant and tiring attempts to make Khodorkovsky a mere political prisoner put his client deeper and deeper into trouble. The Russian authorities finally put an end to the Khodorkovsky case by filing a monstrous charge against him (stealing oil worth 27 bn USD) and giving him an additional 6 years behind bars.

Mr. Khodorkovsky probably curses the day he met Robert Amsterdam.

I think the Reds picked an attorney well worth their cause. (or better: Thaksin picked one for them...)

Best regards...

BTW: Robert Amsterdam is a business lawyer. He is just fiddling around in human rights (with appropriate results).

Thank you for the background on Amsterdam's previous client.

Look forward to the day when Thaksin has the same result from his efforts:

and you're right, Mikhail looks none too impressed with his attorney's skills.

Good luck, Takki Shinegra

[SICHONSTEVE]

Yawn. This will pass without much fanfare.

Yes, without doubt it will. Just what is the point of all this as absolutely nothing will change - apart from Amsterdam's bank balance that is. This will go around full circle with accusations followed by counter-accusations and with old stories re-visited such as that of Thaksin's leading roll in the disastrous crack-down on drug-illegals whereby it is generally acknowledged that up to 1,400 innocents lost their lives through the heavy handed "gung ho" approach by the agencies involved in tackling this. Nothing can be taken away from the fact that just as Abhisit is the acting prime minister now, it was under his watch and on his order that this costly (in lives) bungled operation took place and so he therefore he has much more in the way of blood on HIS hands than Abhisit will ever have in the unlikely case that the blame for those deaths in the most recent upheaval be attributed to and pinned on Abhisit.

It is interesting to note that "one Robert Amsterdam" was by his side defending him on this tragedy (back in May 2003) also (they must be very good buddies obviously). His 'paymaster' must hold this Canadian in such high esteem, thinking that if he can get me off scot-free with this one, when all of those innocent bystanders who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time (they really shouldn't have been there minding their own business, clearly, should they - so it probably serves them right, OK, everyone happy on this one????)!!! then "he's my man" for all occasions.

Stay out of, and well away of politics Thaksin and let Abhisit 'work his wonders' in restoring Thailand's economy and standing in the world, please!!! There, I've asked you nicely. If he adhears to my advice then I'll be waiting for the writ from Mr Amsterdam - claiming my role as chief instigator in 'his causaral loss of earnings and closure of his and his partner's law firm through bankruptcy' . If he does, then maybe I can turn the tables on him and trick him something wicked by offering to pay him lots of money to defend me on this!!! I could even tell him that Thaksin used to be a good mate of mine but I hate him now as he has stopped giving me (my) money to furnish my lavish lifestyle. He might just unwittingly fall for it - although he will probably tell me he's too busy at the moment helping his mate in having a go at that "nasty" Mr Abhisit and his horrible elitist cronies and anyway, even though I've promised him a decent wad it ain't half as much as my boss is giving me - lovely man that he is and my bestest, bestest mate ever in the world and will be for ever and ever and ever - until he cuts off my life support that is!!!! If he does "I will take him to the cleaners" don't you worry!!! I will tell the courts the real story and spread so much muck on him that he will be banished from the earth indefinitely, forthwith, if you don't believe me (how can it be possible that anyone can not believe EVERYTHING I say) just you watch - Thaksin will be history, history, history. Mark my words mate I know where I'm coming from and where my bread's buttered!!! If my chief butterer stops buttering my bread I will find another and another until the butter runs out......

Do you think I'm being a little bit unfair on that Mr Amsterdam????? Some of you may sincerely believe (and I will respect you for it) that he is a conscientious believer in doing good for all mankind (almost like one of Jesus's disciples) with the wondrous and saintly gift of being able to help those worst off and most in need of a helping hand - like a certain Mr Shinawatra!!!!!!!??????

[Emptyset]

I could see how businesses affected would have a good case for suing them, but the families of those who died as a result of the MiB would require proof that these militants were directed by the UDD leaders. I don't think anyone has concrete proof of that. Whereas families of the dead suing the government, different matter, because there's a formal command structure in place and in the end the buck stops with the government.

It almost sounds as 'thank God for those killed by government controlled forces, at least we can sue them'. No pity for those Army/Police chaps, or the innocent bystanders like the lady at BTS Saladaeng ?

I don't know how you've inferred that I made any sort of emotional judgement from my post. I didn't say I pitied anyone that died any more or less than any other. Nor do I value any lives any more or less than another - except if I think they committed abhorrent and immoral acts & killing them might well prevent more such acts, like in the case of Seh Daeng. Couldn't care less about his death, frankly. It doesn't matter to me if they sue or not, if they do, I'd be interested in what happens. I was just looking at the facts of the matter and to me it seems you've got a better chance of being able to sue if your family member was killed by the government. I didn't say that I was happy this was the case. But is anyone actually suing anyone anyway*? I think all of those killed, regardless of which side, have received at least some compensation already, not sure about this though.

And the idea of the families of soldiers suing their combatants in a battle zone seems somewhat absurd though I generally pity the soldiers as much as the protesters, as they're mostly just young conscripts. The people I feel most sorry for are the ordinary people that got caught up in it, though.

*The government was looking for a way to sue the red shirts, but not sure they've actually taken any action yet: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/7767221/Thai-government-to-sue-Red-Shirt-terrorists-for-2.1bn.html

[Emptyset]

It is interesting to note that "one Robert Amsterdam" was by his side defending him on this tragedy (back in May 2003) also (they must be very good buddies obviously).

Didn't know about this. Got a link? To whom did Amsterdam defend Thaksin? I didn't know Thaksin had ever been on trial for it.

[MikeOboe57]

It is interesting to note that "one Robert Amsterdam" was by his side defending him on this tragedy (back in May 2003) also (they must be very good buddies obviously).

Didn't know about this. Got a link? To whom did Amsterdam defend Thaksin? I didn't know Thaksin had ever been on trial for it.

According to Wikipedia Thaksin hired Amsterdam in May 2010. In 2003 Bobby A. started his disastrous defence campaign for former YUKOS manager Mikhail Khodorkovsky.

However the Wikipedia page of Mr Robert Amsterdam raises a lot of suspicion. Not only to me it looks like Bobby A. did take no chances and wrote his own Wiki biography.

Best regards.....

[rubl]

I could see how businesses affected would have a good case for suing them, but the families of those who died as a result of the MiB would require proof that these militants were directed by the UDD leaders. I don't think anyone has concrete proof of that. Whereas families of the dead suing the government, different matter, because there's a formal command structure in place and in the end the buck stops with the government.

It almost sounds as 'thank God for those killed by government controlled forces, at least we can sue them'. No pity for those Army/Police chaps, or the innocent bystanders like the lady at BTS Saladaeng ?

I don't know how you've inferred that I made any sort of emotional judgement from my post. I didn't say I pitied anyone that died any more or less than any other. Nor do I value any lives any more or less than another - except if I think they committed abhorrent and immoral acts & killing them might well prevent more such acts, like in the case of Seh Daeng. Couldn't care less about his death, frankly. It doesn't matter to me if they sue or not, if they do, I'd be interested in what happens. I was just looking at the facts of the matter and to me it seems you've got a better chance of being able to sue if your family member was killed by the government. I didn't say that I was happy this was the case. But is anyone actually suing anyone anyway*? I think all of those killed, regardless of which side, have received at least some compensation already, not sure about this though.

... rest removed, just more of the same

No offence, nothing personal, just objective, shall we try again?

Families who had relatives killed by MiB can hardly sue them. Families of the dead suing the government, can do, clear structure, at the end of which we've got the government.

Objective, no emotional value added, just so sorry. Mind you I wonder about 'families of the dead suing the government', shouldn't this have been 'families who had relatives killed by army/police suing the government' ? Just trying to remain objective.