Could Affirmation Action Help Create Equality In Thailand?

[Chunky1]

In some countries, the government forces private and public enterprises to be more respectful of social disadvantages in order to stimulate future equality in business and education. As far as I know, Thailand thus far has not implemented similar socially conscious law.

"This chart is from The Association of American Medical Colleges for the years 2008-2010 (aggregated).

For 2010, the average GPA of students applying to medical schools was 3.53 and the average total MCAT score was 28.3, and those averages are highlighted above in blue. Therefore, the chart above shows the acceptance rates for students applying to medical schools with average GPAs and MCAT scores, and the acceptance rates for those students with slightly higher and slightly lower than average GPAs and test scores."

Do you think that because Thailand's social demographics are not based on race but on region of birth that such a program would be too hard to implement? Could you replace "Black" on this chart with "Isaan", etc?

If the Thai government were to acknowledge the disadvantages and advantages of Thais born in certain regions, then they could create more equality in Thai Universities through Affirmative Action.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Chunky1

[Heng]

We've already gone through the lopsided legal laws in favor of the locals way back when (you know, back when they actually owned everything, along with the rights to running all of the major businesses). Slowly but surely they sold just about all of it, or let someone else do the work and reap the benefits through concessions, and when you do that, it's inevitable that the next step is that you give up your power to call the shots since you've helped to create and nurture something stronger and more powerful to take your place.

The problem is that affirmative action type fixes don't address the very basic problem: that we all are given (and one can give) the same amount of seconds, minutes, hours, and days... but at the end of it all, some folks are going to do more and some are going to do much less.

[Berkshire]

All I can say is that any new government program cost money. Lots. The govt of Thailand has more pressing problems at the moment and really doesn't have the resources to conduct a social experiment. Disclaimer: In the US, I actually believe that affirmative action was necessary back in the day. The level of discrimination that African-Americans had to deal with was staggering. The only way they stood a chance was through govt action. Overall, it was good for the country as a whole.

[Chunky1]

Not many takers for this topic surprisingly given the popularity of the notion that the Thai government does not do enough to promote social equality.

I guess I should have put HiSo in the header.

[thaibeachlovers]

Not many takers for this topic surprisingly given the popularity of the notion that the Thai government does not do enough to promote social equality.

I guess I should have put HiSo in the header.

Hmmm. I doubt many farangs would give a monkey's as to whether an Issan native gets to go to uni here.

Start a thread about how the immigration discriminates against farangs, and you'll get lots of takers.

[mstribling]

Not many takers for this topic surprisingly given the popularity of the notion that the Thai government does not do enough to promote social equality.

I guess I should have put HiSo in the header.

Hmmm. I doubt many farangs would give a monkey's as to whether an Issan native gets to go to uni here.

Start a thread about how the immigration discriminates against farangs, and you'll get lots of takers.

Agree. Who cares about this?

Not really sure about the discrimination by immigration though.

[Heng]

Start a thread about how the immigration discriminates against farangs, and you'll get lots of takers.

If one has the drive, they'll make it no matter what (look at the success the world's Jewish population enjoys despite what's been thrown at them). As it relates to Thailand, foreigners in the past have gotten the sword without trial or further questioning in the past (in the days when the klongs were patrolled by the police and anyone with a strange accent was often killed on the spot)... and in the present, illegal SEA aliens often are raped and robbed by the authorities... if falangs can't handle a little purple ink stamp (forced) song and dance routine barrier to success, then they probably don't deserve a truly permanent presence here.

Discuss.

[Huey]

No, not at all.

Affirmative Action is not a one sized fits all deal. This is a special requirement for the US, where Blacks have been subjected to atrocities that someone who grew up in Issan can scarcely fathom.

Truth of the matter is that Issan or Bangkok, the only differences are mild social ones. Give a Issan man enough money and move him into BKK and in a few generations you won't be able to tell his kids a part from the other Thais who have been there for ages.

Besides if Issan people want it they will fight, bleed, and die for it like we did in the States. Freedom and Equality are rarely given freely, that respect, more often than not needs to be earned with blood.

So I guess the question is not if AA would be good for Thais, rather would Issan Thais be ready to die for it?

[Heng]

Give a Issan man enough money and move him into BKK and in a few generations you won't be able to tell his kids a part from the other Thais who have been there for ages.

Nevermind a few generations, that's the formula to get a few cars and a house with 20% down, all owned by the bank again in 3-4 years. Not all will follow that path of course, but one doesn't have to look far to see it everyday.

[61guitarman61]

Affirmative action was intended to create a PC environment and to either ease over-active consciences or attempt to right wrongs that were many decades old already. The one statistic missing on that chart is the utilization and/or successful completion ratio by those disadvantaged groups given opportunities not afforded to the less disadvantaged groups. The 85% figure, for instance, in the black segment, represents the acceptance percentile of those applying, but out of what pool number? By ethnic group, what percentile of physicians are black, asian, white, or hispanic? Even having been given these opportunities, very few, by ratio, actually take advantage of what has been given as an entitlement. Entitlements have never had very positive long range effects in society and perhaps are more detrimental than positive as one entitlement makes another necessary to maintain equality and PCness for every economic and ethnic catagory. Equality and PCness can never be truly achieved. In the Thai society, even less so as corruption is so prevalant. Entitlement monies, after all, really cannot be used for bribes.

[wintermute]

Give a Issan man enough money and move him into BKK and in a few generations you won't be able to tell his kids a part from the other Thais who have been there for ages.

Nevermind a few generations, that's the formula to get a few cars and a house with 20% down, all owned by the bank again in 3-4 years. Not all will follow that path of course, but one doesn't have to look far to see it everyday.

Well it's not just issanites that do this but quite a lot of the Bangkok pretend hi-so also plonk down millions on a new beemer paying god knows how much interest per month and live in a boxy condo.

[thanew]

A short answer, no. In the end what happens is people/companies/universities just try and make the quotas rather than actually do things in the "spirit" of the law/rule. This just ends up creating a larger problem and a larger divide between everyone.

For example, the NFL (American Pro Football league for those not in the know) has put a rule in place called the "Rooney Rule" (named after a team owner). This rule basically follows the principles of Affirmative Action, however if you follow it you see exactly why Affirmative Action is flawed. The rule basically states that before you hire someone, you must give a minority (e.g. an African American, Latin American, Asian American, etc..) candidate an interview. If you don't you are labelled a racist and fined quite a large amount of money. The silliness behind all of this is that the teams already have a good idea of what they are looking for and who they want to hire, so this policy ends up creating a token candidate (see: Dolphins pursuing Jim Harbaugh this year), who is only interviewed simply for the color of their skin, thus fulfilling the quota and allowing the team to hire who they actually intended to hire.

[Heng]

Give a Issan man enough money and move him into BKK and in a few generations you won't be able to tell his kids a part from the other Thais who have been there for ages.

Nevermind a few generations, that's the formula to get a few cars and a house with 20% down, all owned by the bank again in 3-4 years. Not all will follow that path of course, but one doesn't have to look far to see it everyday.

Well it's not just issanites that do this but quite a lot of the Bangkok pretend hi-so also plonk down millions on a new beemer paying god knows how much interest per month and live in a boxy condo.

Absolutely. Although IMO that's not quite as 'ugly' when it doesn't result in not having enough funds to send kids to school, to go to decent hospitals, etc.

[Berkshire]

Not many takers for this topic surprisingly given the popularity of the notion that the Thai government does not do enough to promote social equality.

I guess I should have put HiSo in the header.

Chunks, what exactly did you have in mind? The Thai gov, for example, already provides low/no interest student loans to needy families to attend universities. What would you be proposing? Hiring practices? Advancement opportunities? Government jobs only? Is it based on income? Skin color? What shade would qualify? Only asking.

[iono]

Not many takers for this topic surprisingly given the popularity of the notion that the Thai government does not do enough to promote social equality.

I guess I should have put HiSo in the header.

Chunks, what exactly did you have in mind? The Thai gov, for example, already provides low/no interest student loans to needy families to attend universities. What would you be proposing? Hiring practices? Advancement opportunities? Government jobs only? Is it based on income? Skin color? What shade would qualify? Only asking.

Really what are you looking for? What are your experiences in the Northern Areas, I ask as I see many children attending college and many kids prepping for that day they will attend the university, I believe the mindset to attend and succeed is fostered and passed down from the parent. We have family here that have busted their butts for their children, working overseas, extra jobs and sacrificing much so their kids will complete basic schooling, then when they complete school it is up to them if they want to attend university, no one stopping them except for a lack of motivation, they would rather make farm, make baskets, go to China or wherever for work...the opportunity is there for most to attend school, it is the attitude of the parents and motivation of the children to want success or just settle.

Oh affirmative action in America, big success if you were a minority, failure if you were of the main culture; affirmative action allowed all to sink to one level, because there were many special rules in place to ensure the success of the minority and those rules didn't call for anyone to reach up to succeed, but just get in or accepted in schools and the work place predominately government jobs, so we all settled mediocre test scores, mediocre management, mediocre employees, who eventually through the new system become the mediocre bosses, lawyers, doctors, heads of state, presidents ensuring a more socialist society, a politicians wet dream. Now there are always exceptions, but those exceptions will always succeed with or without special rules to assist them.

[GreenSnapper]

Communism has failed big in the world. And "affirmative action", "political correctness", "feminism" and similar highly ideological doctrines derived from it are going to fail as well.

People are not equal. There should be equal rights, but that's it. There is no serious reason to have some amount of "Isaan" or "women" in government or business, unless they qualify for it.

It is one of the great advantages here in Asia, that ideology is ceasing here, while in the West it is increasing. China is no longer communist and Thailand has never been. The West will finally learn it too, or will fail miserably.

Edited January 26, 2011 by GreenSnapper

[meadish_sweetball]

Screw everyone except for the bullies and their cronies is also an ideology, albeit a very ugly one.

[manarak]

I met many persons from Isaan who attended University.

Except a few, they all dropped out - why, I asked.

"Because keegiet" was the honest answer.

I am not sure at all that admission fixes the problem.

Edited January 26, 2011 by manarak

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Posting without reading the responses.

Affirmative action is dumb dumb DUMB.

There are far more efficient ways to create an egalitarian society than creating clear fault lines which are so easily exploited by those who would manufacture hatred and fear for personal ambition / profit.

AA is always stupid. Always.

[GreenSnapper]

There are far more efficient ways to create an egalitarian society than creating clear fault lines which are so easily exploited by those who would manufacture hatred and fear for personal ambition / profit.

AA is always stupid. Always.

Societies are not egalitarian. The idea of egalitarian societies is plain communism. Pol Pot was the last one who tried radical "social engineering" and affirmative action is just a more modest form of the same idea.

Not everybody can have a super model as girlfriend. Many will end up with a fattie. Now, with affirmative action, a certain percentage of losers will get a super model, even if they don't deserve it. That's the stupid idea behind it.

People do discriminate. Everybody does. If you don't like to have a fattie, do something to be more attractive. But don't ask for government help.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

There are far more efficient ways to create an egalitarian society than creating clear fault lines which are so easily exploited by those who would manufacture hatred and fear for personal ambition / profit.

AA is always stupid. Always.

Societies are not egalitarian. The idea of egalitarian societies is plain communism. Pol Pot was the last one who tried radical "social engineering" and affirmative action is just a more modest form of the same idea.

Not everybody can have a super model as girlfriend. Many will end up with a fattie. Now, with affirmative action, a certain percentage of losers will get a super model, even if they don't deserve it. That's the stupid idea behind it.

People do discriminate. Everybody does. If you don't like to have a fattie, do something to be more attractive. But don't ask for government help.

Hmm you're wrong. But you're half-right. But not because you're right.

Affirmative action is like compensation. We all are familiar with the concept of litigation, compensation, suing and being reimbursed when we are wronged or whatever. That's all AA is; compensation for government neglect or (if you're the US or Australia) a little bit worse than mere 'neglect'.

The reason it's stupid is because it's too easily exploited and misrepresented and (often, sadly) abused by those tasked with implementing it fairly.

AA is not designed to close the gap between rich and poor. It's just a stupid, stupid way to go about it. It's counter-productive, but only due to it's divisive exploitable nature. It's like an ugly mishit lob high up over the net, when the passing shot was there to be hit cleanly for the winner.

[Huey]

There are far more efficient ways to create an egalitarian society than creating clear fault lines which are so easily exploited by those who would manufacture hatred and fear for personal ambition / profit.

AA is always stupid. Always.

Societies are not egalitarian. The idea of egalitarian societies is plain communism. Pol Pot was the last one who tried radical "social engineering" and affirmative action is just a more modest form of the same idea.

Not everybody can have a super model as girlfriend. Many will end up with a fattie. Now, with affirmative action, a certain percentage of losers will get a super model, even if they don't deserve it. That's the stupid idea behind it.

People do discriminate. Everybody does. If you don't like to have a fattie, do something to be more attractive. But don't ask for government help.

Hmm you're wrong. But you're half-right. But not because you're right.

Affirmative action is like compensation. We all are familiar with the concept of litigation, compensation, suing and being reimbursed when we are wronged or whatever. That's all AA is; compensation for government neglect or (if you're the US or Australia) a little bit worse than mere 'neglect'.

The reason it's stupid is because it's too easily exploited and misrepresented and (often, sadly) abused by those tasked with implementing it fairly.

AA is not designed to close the gap between rich and poor. It's just a stupid, stupid way to go about it. It's counter-productive, but only due to it's divisive exploitable nature. It's like an ugly mishit lob high up over the net, when the passing shot was there to be hit cleanly for the winner.

That's the heart of it. It's a form of litigation. Compensation for the centuries of inhumane bullshit we had to go through in the States. However, it should have been handled differently. For example, had Lincoln not have been shot and each freed Black man been given 40 acres and a mule as was the intention at the time, things would have been different and likely not nessaciated AA.

However , just like with the Native Americans, the White man in the US went back on their promise to the Blacks, and took that away as well. So we fought, continue to fight, and take what ever it is we can get. Only a fool will still think that the govt will ever give us anything freely.

Hell, Americans don't even have free health care, if we cant get that sorted what makes anyone think that they will ever give us reparations.

Thailand is a different story, one based on CLASS more than ethenticity. Money can potentially change your class, giving Thais hope to join the elite society their culture has created for themselves. However in the States there was a time when it mattered not how much cash you had the doors to the upper echelons of society were forever closed to you.

The beauty of it is, I think that day is behind us, due to our struggle. Now we can join any level of society we aspire to with enough success. Perhaps it takes more success than our white American counterparts, but the important thing is that we can still get there.

[Berkshire]

Thailand is a different story, one based on CLASS more than ethenticity. Money can potentially change your class, giving Thais hope to join the elite society their culture has created for themselves. However in the States there was a time when it mattered not how much cash you had the doors to the upper echelons of society were forever closed to you.

That's a good point--in Thailand, it is more about class distinction rather than race or skin color. That's why I was asking the OP what he/she was proposing. But the Chunks appears to be unreachable or in seclusion.

[Chunky1]

A common theme on Thai Visa is that the Elite Thais are discriminating against the rural poor, especially those from the Northeast, that the rural poor are more than capable yet under-hired and under-represented in University and Business. I wasn't suggesting that AA is actually a good idea, more so just opening a discussion. However, I think I miss titled the topic, something like "Are HiSo Thais smarter than other Thais?" would have probably resulted in more fun.

[Huey]

A common theme on Thai Visa is that the Elite Thais are discriminating against the rural poor, especially those from the Northeast, that the rural poor are more than capable yet under-hired and under-represented in University and Business. I wasn't suggesting that AA is actually a good idea, more so just opening a discussion. However, I think I miss titled the topic, something like "Are HiSo Thais smarter than other Thais?" would have probably resulted in more fun.

LOL, and more flames no doubt!

[MiG16]

affirmative actions, WITH sunset clauses, COULD be necessary in some situations

but usually, it is implemented to correct some gross neglect or discrimination (policy/law/legal discrimination) against certain groups

in the case of Thailand - all thai citizens have the rights to 12 year free education. there is no policy against those from Isaan, nor from the south.

however, infrastructural access are of course more readily available in big cities - say Bangkok

but that problem also exist in other places - say, even Germany

Affirmative action in the form of quota for a certain group is not the answer, at least in my opinion.

establishing more regional centres - for business and education - is more likely what is needed to address what the OP thinks need to be achieved.

I think at least on the educational front, Thailand has already been implementing a number of changes to address the problem of access to higher education. making universities autonomous is one of those strategies. the conversion of Rajabhat Institutes to university status is another one of those strategies.

(primary and secondary schools have been somewhat available in most areas - in some form or the other)

but these are just my observations. perhaps those that work in the education sector in Thailand will be able to share their insider observation

cheers

[kyb789]

Sorry I don't believe in reverse discrimination, which is exactly what happened in the U.S.

My brother wanted all his life to be in medical school, but couldn't get in for 2 years although he carried a 4.0 GPA all through high school and college. The universities were impacted and most openings were given to documented minorities with less than 4.0 GPAs. True story. He found himself in Israel getting his education. Nobody helped him. So watching his struggle gives me little sympathy for people that expect a free handout. Thailand has the same opportunities for anyone who is serious.

[GreenSnapper]

Sorry I don't believe in reverse discrimination, which is exactly what happened in the U.S.

Yep, that is exactly the point. The groups who bully change. The bullying does not.

Pol Pot killed the former elite. The most severe form of 'affirmative action'.

Modern feminists openly demand "positive discrimination" against men.

These ideologies easily become totalitarian, that's why they are dangerous and not just idiotic.

[Huey]

Sorry I don't believe in reverse discrimination, which is exactly what happened in the U.S.

My brother wanted all his life to be in medical school, but couldn't get in for 2 years although he carried a 4.0 GPA all through high school and college. The universities were impacted and most openings were given to documented minorities with less than 4.0 GPAs. True story. He found himself in Israel getting his education. Nobody helped him. So watching his struggle gives me little sympathy for people that expect a free handout. Thailand has the same opportunities for anyone who is serious.

Whatever "little sympathy" you have for people who expect back what they are owed, divide that by 100 and that's about double the sympathy I have for people like your brother. At least he had the opportunity to travel to Israel (ironically another country with all kinds of discriminatory practices) To finish his education.

You wanna talk about true stories and being denied???

Ok, short and sweet.

My grandfather had his school burnt too the ground by the KKK when he was 8 years old. The govt didn't see it fit to build another primary school for Negroes in Apalachicola, Florida until he was 16, so he was denied his education. He worked hard on a farm then on a airfield, did odd jobs, and eventually moved north to Philadelphia where his nack for mechanics and his speed landed him a job at the Naval yard (though not before getting a job at the Bud company, ONLY because the govt forced them to take the white women off the understaffed assembly line and hire black men to work along side of them for both safety and to increase production). At the Naval Yard he took a job as a mechanic's assistant. He excelled at the job and eventually they would have him train new mechanics assistants, the white ones would always go on to be mechanics, but he was never promoted.

But anyway I don't want to go on, I could write a book, and actually I should probably write a book about granddad. However let me wrap it up with this. Before he died at 94yrs old I had the pleasure of living with him for a few years when I was a kid. We would go to the supermarket and get a bunch of groceries and such. By the time we got to the counter, he would have the total already in his head (Tax included) and was never off by more than .40 or .50 cents.. He was 88 at the time.

Imagine, the totals were always a couple hundred dollars or more with tons of different items, yet with a 3rd grade education and damm near 90yrs old he still accurately calculated the figures and kept them in his head.

What could he have been had the same opportunities as the white people of his time? He could have been a great Mathematician, a scientist, a engineer, who knows. What a waste this bigotry has caused. And what could have been my birthright today had he been able to better provide for my father, and my father for me? We could have been rich!, or at least not have come up in the Ghetto.

And here he is talking about AA as people looking for a hand out. Thats BS, we just want what was stolen from our parents. If someone stole your father's land, or house or your mother's jewellery, be they dead or alive, do you not have a right to it?

Why then should opportunity be any different?

And if ya wanna get real gritty about it, this is just about opportunity denied for being black in America, for so many it was LIFE that was denied. So many that we have a museums dedicated just to lynchings.

How do you put a price tag on that?

AA laws are a miserable pittance of what the govt should enforce, AA's bigoted opponents should be happy thats all the govt dose.

Once again the situation for Thais is another story entirely and anything they feel like they deserve more, they will no doubt pay the blood price for it like we did.

[Heng]

"If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster and treat those two imposters just the same..."

All cultures have had their rough spots. Some people never seem to get over disasters and dwell on the past, while others are able to move on.