15,500 Baht !

[Pib]

After doing some googling on Cirrus, Maestro, Mastercard (all Mastercard companies/owned) it appears Cirrus is Mastercard's "ATM-only" brand. When it comes to debit card programs under the Mastercard banner of companies, Mastercard and Masestro are used. See this Mastercard fact sheet: http://www.mastercar...t_programs.html

My gut is beginning to tell me Capital One "debit" cards use the Mastercard/Masestro logos and will continue to work in Thailand. But with Capital One aligning its ATM cards to Mastercard-owned Cirrus network which is for ATM cards only and since apparently Cirrus ain't as widely used in Thailand (like on AEON ATMs), then Capital One ATM card holders may need to upgrade/switch their Capital One bank account to another Capital One account that provides a debit card....then they can probably do ATM withdrawals again like at AEON ATMs and even purchase things with no foreign transaction fee...this may be a blessing in disguise....or not.

This is just another example of expats in Thailand who want to use home country ATM/Credit/Debit cards probably need multiple home country bank accounts and cards as backup to each other, since banks/credit card companies can change their policies overnight like Capital One has apparently just done with its ATM only cards.

[jfchandler]

Pib, I agree 100% with the wisdom of the advice you provide above... learned the hard way from past experience...

But I'm going to differ a bit on your comment above about what a Cirrus logo card is... Try this one on for size...

Today, I got a new VISA logo debit card (not MasterCard logo) in the mail from one of my U.S. banks... And when I looked on the back of the card, the only card network logo displayed on the back was Cirrus....

Bummer!!!!

I may give it a try in an AEON machine to see what happens... But this is beginning to get very confusing... It's a VISA logo card on the front, so it should be accepted by ATM machines that carry the VISA logo... But on the back it says only Cirrus, which AEON ATMs apparently won't accept...

I've got a headache now...

[Pib]

Interesting if AEON accepts the Visa logo card with a Cirrus logo on the back. But maybe that just means the card has a major affiliation with both Visa and Cirrus. Maybe it uses Visa for debit purchases and Cirrus for funds withdrawals...or maybe this or that...yeap, can cause a headache. Be interesting to see if the card works in an AEON ATM.

[Pib]

Nice little layman's article on the Visa Plus and Mastercard Cirrus card networks.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090701131933AApmTRM

[jfchandler]

Well... double bummer....

Before I could get a chance to try the card below in an AEON ATM, I tried it tonight to top up a BTS pass card... The girl ran the card thru her machine and the answer back... NOT ACCEPTED..... (and there were plenty of funds in the account to cover the purchase).

I'm afraid this is going to be a bad omen for Cirrus only debit cards...

Today, I got a new VISA logo debit card (not MasterCard logo) in the mail from one of my U.S. banks... And when I looked on the back of the card, the only card network logo displayed on the back was Cirrus....

[Pib]

So much for my gut feeling...guess Chang beer has rotted it.

Seriously through, it appears the Cirrus network may not have a large present in Thailand even through you can google and find web pages like http://thailandtrave...nfo-general.php which say Cirrus network machines are widely available in Thailand. When you look at the Mastercard site for a location of their Mastercard, Masestro, and Cirrus network ATMs they seem to be all over the place in Thailand. http://www.mastercard.us/cardholder-services/atm-locator.html

Or, maybe Cirrus is just used by certain Thai banks in Thailand. I'll have to start glancing at ATMs over the coming days to see what logo's are on them.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Pib

[jfchandler]

Pib, when I made my last Aeon w/d a few days ago with a different card, with the Cap One Cirrus debit card issue in the back of my mind, I was noticing the ATM machine stickers for those nearby...

As I think I mentioned previously, I noticed that the Bangkok Bank and Kasikorn Bank ATMs, at least, clearly had the Cirrus stickers on the front...in addition to the regular MasterCard ones...

The part I can't figure out about last night is....the card I was using was a VISA logo debit card...and the BTS counters have signs up saying they accept VISA cards, as well as MC, JCB and a few others... No Cirrus sticker, though.. And yet even though my card was a VISA logo card, it was rejected... I can only assume because it was a VISA CIRRUS card.... As I said before, this is giving me a headache.

PS - And of course, with Cirrus only debit cards (as opposed to the ATM only Cap One card), it's not only access to ATMs that is an issue...but also POS purchases...as I tried to do last night at BTS.... If I cant use the card to reliably make POS purchases where other VISA (Plus) cards are accepted, I might as well send it back.

Edited February 4, 2011 by jfchandler

[JimGant]

And of course, with Cirrus only debit cards (as opposed to the ATM only Cap One card), it's not only access to ATMs that is an issue...but also POS purchases...as I tried to do last night at BTS.... If I cant use the card to reliably make POS purchases where other VISA (Plus) cards are accepted, I might as well send it back.

JFC, has your new card worked anywhere yet -- or have you only tried it at BTS? I ask because I've never had any problems with POS here, except for Foodland (which doesn't take MC, so I presume all Cirrus network cards too). My POS transactions are with a credit card -- but that's the same as using your debit card in the swipe and sign mode, as you know. The credit card is a USAA Visa -- but like all USAA plastic, it rides the Cirrus network. Perhaps your 'activation' of your new card didn't take.....?

[jfchandler]

Pib, well, I had already called to activate the card after I received it, and as far as I know, I completed that via telephone...

And of course, the card has a sufficient balance on it... Today, I'm headed out for an ATM and some POS to see what happens...and I'll advise further...

It is, however, as I mentioned, a debit card...not a credit card.... And the only affiliation on the back is Cirrus....

But yes, the BTS top up was the first and only attempted use of that card, thus far.

PS - I've never understood about Foodland and their policy to not accept MasterCards for payment...

Every other major grocery store in town that I can think of accepts both VISA and MC.... But Foodland won't take MC.... Why???

Edited February 4, 2011 by jfchandler

[JimGant]

It is, however, as I mentioned, a debit card...not a credit card.... And the only affiliation on the back is Cirrus....

That shouldn't make any difference in Thailand, as debit cards only work in the 'credit card mode' over here AFAIK (vice in the debit/pin mode, which is still the default mode in the States due to the more favorable terms for the merchant).

Every other major grocery store in town that I can think of accepts both VISA and MC.... But Foodland won't take MC.... Why???

Probably because MC has (or had) a less favorable discount rate -- same reason many merchants refuse American Express. (But, you have to wonder how many sales have been lost because of this policy -- certainly more than enough to make up for the less favorable discount rate, even, indeed if that still exists..)

[Pib]

Foodland's policy must have changed recently as they accepted by my Capital One No Hassles Cash Reward Mastercard. Used it at Foodland in Thonburi (west side of Bangkok) two times over the last 10 days or so...got 2% cash back reward on each purchase. Additionally, Foodland even has a promotion going on for at least the last 10 days where if you buy at least 1000 baht of groceries "and pay with Mastercard" you get a nice little tote bag with Mastercard logo on it....I now have two of those bags from my two recent Mastercard purchases.

Check out Foodland again regarding Mastercard. Hopefully all Foodland stores are now accepting Mastercard and not just the one I use all the time.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Pib

[JimGant]

"and pay with Mastercard" you get a nice little tote bag with Mastercard logo on it.

Methinks MC and Foodland recently met in a smoke-filled room....

[jfchandler]

Hey, thanks for the tip about Foodland and MC....

I haven't seen/noticed anything about that change or promotion at my local branches here....

But then again, I don't go in to do my weekly shopping each time and ask, "Do you take MC cards yet?"

I will today, however.... :jap:

[jfchandler]

Well, I don't know how to explain this at all... but here's the further info re my new U.S. bank VISA debit card that only has the Cirrus logo on the back...

Last night, tried POS purchase at BTS, and denied.

Today, tried POS purchase at Central Chidlom and denied.

Also today, however, used the same card to successfully make ATM withdrawals from both an AEON ATM and a CitiBank ATM, both of which don't charge the 150 baht ATM withdrawal fee.

It looks like this small bank that's behind my new card is at least charging the 1% card network fee, though both of my ATM withdrawals showed up in the bank's online banking only as a single amount (no breakout).

Both the AEON and CitiBank ATM withdrawals were 1000 baht in the afternoon.

Rate for the AEON withdrawal about 4 pm: 30.52 baht

Rate for the CitiBank withdrawal about 4:30 pm: 30.33 baht

Bank of Thailand IER for the day: 30.83

Bangkok Bank Buying TT in the afternoon: 30.65

I guess I'm going to need to phone call this bank to ask if they know what's going on... It's a mystery to me why I could make ATM withdrawals from both AEON and CitiBank, but not make POS purchases, even though it's absolutely a VISA debit card...

One thought that occurred to me is that I had one other bank I'm familiar with start a policy this past year of limiting international POS transactions on their accounts to a maximum of $XX per month... However, in all the account paperwork and such for this VISA/Cirrus card, there was nothing disclosed about any limitation on foreign use.

Also, my experience with this particular VISA/Cirrus debit card would not necessarily mean anything for what's happening with the Capital One ATM only cards that are now switched over to the Cirrus network.

I'm guessing my Visa/Cirrus debit card worked in the AEON ATM today because it was at least a VISA debit card... whereas the Capital One ATM card is ATM only, not VISA or MC... But that still doesn't explain why neither of my POS attempted purchases were accepted.

[JimGant]

There was no foreign transaction fee applied and the "posted exchange rate always fell between the Sight Bill and TT Buying rates"…usually Sight Bill rates are 0.1 baht per USD below the TT Rate but as I mentioned I got a little more than the Sight Bill rate. Summary: I durn near got the TT rate.

But, is the TT rate what you're supposed to get for a POS transaction?

JFChandler has previously reported the favorable ATM rates he has received with Schwaab (or maybe E*Trade, or both). This has been at or very near the Interbank Exchange Rate (IER), or sometimes referred to as the wholesale rate, reference rate, mid rate -- but all referring to the best rate any of us in the trenches could possibly get. That Schwaab didn't pass on the network foreign transaction fee meant JFC got the best deal possible with his ATM transactions.

Now, I'm not sure what FX rates JFC gets when he swipes plastic in a POS transaction....or at least Visa/PLUS plastic.

But I do know I'm getting about 10 satang less than the TT rate when I swipe my Cirrus networked USAA cards (I have both a MC and a Visa credit card, but the latter also rides the Cirrus network)-- and this is before the 1% foreign transaction fee is subtracted. And this rate is pretty much right-on the rate MC says on their website that I should get.

But, shouldn't the rate (before the 1% fee, of course) be at or near the IER -- which is 12-15 satang greater than the TT rate? Or do POS transactions, because of their once-a-day FX looksee, create a buy-sell spread that translates into a less favorable rate for the card holder than an ATM transaction? (Or, are Visa/MC and issuing banks using an artificial spread to line their pockets -- akin to the DCC gouge...?)

Anyway, PIB, my results with a Cirrus card, and POS transactions, is very similar to yours -- except I'm not getting the 1% FT fee refunded. And, my cash back maxes out at 1%. But,using TT as the reference rate (vice IER), it's easy to see the break-even point between living off ACH money to BB -- or my Cirrus credit card. Obviously, with your Capitol One, there's no break-even point to see -- you're always ahead of the ACH option.

Interestingly, I looked at the last two weeks of POS FX rates for MC, Visa, X-rates, and BOT. Here are the averages:

30.55:MC

30.65: Visa

30.66: BOT TT Rate

30.79 X-rate IER

30.79: BOT IER

That BOT and X-rates should tie for the IER average is interesting, particularly since they never matched rates on any single day -- and, in fact, there were some fairly large discrepancies. However, that Bangkok is 12-hours ahead of the major financial market, probably accounts for the day-to-day discrepancy. That they both average out the same says they're both tracking the same numbers, albeit in different time frames.

The difference between Visa/PLUS and MC/Cirrus, while not huge, is interesting. I don't have a Visa/PLUS card, so I can't run my own numbers. But, as said, I did run my Cirrus numbers, and they track closely to what's depicted above (i.e., I'm getting less than the TT rate for my POS transactions in Thailand).

JFC, hopefully you can shed some light on Visa/PLUS transactions compared to MC/Cirrus -- both in the ATM mode, and the POS mode.

[JimGant]

Rate for the AEON withdrawal about 4 pm: 30.52 baht

Exactly 1% off the IER, as expected.

Rate for the CitiBank withdrawal about 4:30 pm: 30.33 baht

About .6% more than the 1% foreign transaction fee alone. I bet Cirrus network had priority at this machine, while AEON didn't have that option, but recognized the Visa coding -- and rode the PLUS network. That we see differences in charges between the two networks no longer seems surprising..with Cirrus becoming somewhat suspect.

[jfchandler]

WOW Jim, that's too much info for me... I'm already confused as it is....

Here's what I can simplistically say:

With the Schwab VISA card, AFAICT, I get pretty much identical exchange rates for my ATM W/D (usually AEON) and POS purchases.... Of course, it's kind of hard to do one of each at exactly the same time, to minimize the timing fluctuations of exchange rates... But the resulting rates for those transactions usually emerge as better than the day's buying TT, but maybe up to .10 baht or so short of the day's BOT IER...

I have some other VISA/PLUS debit cards where the bank also does NOT charge the card network fee, and I seem to get pretty similar results with those...

I also have some MC debit cards, though those all have been with banks that DO charge the 1% card network fee... And of course, the resulting net exchange rate is always lower... But I don't think I've ever done any ATM vs POS exchange rate comparisons for those few cards, because I rarely if ever withdraw ATM cash using a card that charges the 1% fee...

If I pull cash from an ATM, 99.9% of the time it's going to be with some variety of card where I'm not paying the 1% card network fee, whether it be Schwab or one of several other VISA logo cards. I've never had any MC logo card that I can recall where I didn't get hit with the 1% fee.

[Pib]

I noticed earlier from looking at the MC and Visa weblinks that provide their exchanges rates, that Visa seems to provide approx a 0.1 baht to the dollar higher exchange rate. It can be tough to determine what exchange rate will finally "post/be charged" to your account...and the posting date is usually a few business days later compared to the actual transaction date. Of course, during this time from purchase to posting date, the exchange rate is changing. While the initial alert email a person may get on the transaction at a certain exchange rate, it's the "posted" rate that counts. But when taking all of this in account as I mentioned earlier I'm getting a exchange rate slightly more than the Sight Bill rate once the transaction posts/dust settles. On the average and just for example, if the TT rate was 30.9 and the Sight Bill rate 30.8, I would get around a 30.83, based on me analyzing the 10 credit card POS transactions I've done with my new Cap One Mastercard. No, I'm not saying I got 30.83 on each one of these 10 transaction, I'm saying when the dust settled and the transaction posted I got approx 0.03 baht better than the Sight Bill rate to the best of my calculations.

Even doing some more analysis where I would say transfer $2000/month to my Bangkok Bank account at the TT Buying rate "and considering the two fees charged by the NY Branch and the local Branch," getting a little better than the Sight Bill rate on credit card purchases is still cheaper than during ACH transfers with fees considered and using my Bangkok Bank debit card for purchases. And yes, that 2% or 1% cash reward and no foreign transaction fee definitely makes using this Cap One credit card vs my Bangkok Bank debit card a smarter thing to do...plus, I'm covered by U.S. Consumer Protection Laws for credit card purchases. Cool...I'm lovin' it.

Edited February 4, 2011 by Pib

[jfchandler]

Jim, re the CitiBank ATMs in BKK, it could be as you suggest, but I'm not sure that's the reason.

In my experience, mostly with VISA/PLUS logo cards for cash w/ds, the CitiBank ATMs there at Asoke seem to always provide a slightly lower exchange rate than do the AEON ATMs -- even when using the same card and at as close a time as possible, traveling from Asoke to the nearest AEON.

The difference is usually small, somewhere in the .10 to .20 baht range, but it seems to be persistent and consistent. I'm not sure what would account for it. I guess I just assumed Citi is somehow taking a bit on the side, though that's only a guess on my part.

So I tend to stick to the AEON ATMs whenever possible for that reason. But if I'm in a pinch and am not convenient for hitting an AEON, I'll use the CitiBank ATMs instead as a fall-back choice and eat the .10 baht or so difference. Either way, a whole lot better than paying 150 baht per pop elsewhere.

PS - I do agree however with what's generally being said, that MC logo cards, everything else being equal, seem to generally have a slightly lower exchange rate compared to their VISA counterparts.

Rate for the CitiBank withdrawal about 4:30 pm: 30.33 baht

About .6% more than the 1% foreign transaction fee alone. I bet Cirrus network had priority at this machine, while AEON didn't have that option, but recognized the Visa coding -- and rode the PLUS network. That we see differences in charges between the two networks no longer seems surprising..with Cirrus becoming somewhat suspect.

Edited February 4, 2011 by jfchandler

[jfchandler]

Jim, here's a good additional data point for you on ATM vs POS exchange rates...

Add this to the mix below...

Schwab VISA (no FCF) POS purchase this evening: 30.82 rate

377.25 baht purchase and $12.24 debit to my account.

Both the AEON and CitiBank ATM withdrawals were 1000 baht in the afternoon.

Rate for the AEON withdrawal about 4 pm: 30.52 baht

Rate for the CitiBank withdrawal about 4:30 pm: 30.33 baht

Bank of Thailand IER for the day: 30.83

Bangkok Bank Buying TT in the afternoon: 30.65

[jfchandler]

Jim, here's a good additional data point for you on ATM vs POS exchange rates...

Add this to the mix below...

Schwab VISA (no FCF) POS purchase this evening: 30.82 rate

377.25 baht purchase and $12.24 debit to my account.

PS - Pib, BTW, I can confirm the change in policy at Foodland to now accept MasterCard logo cards... When I went today to the Suk Soi 5 branch, they even had big MasterCard logo stickers placed on the little tabletops at each register where you typically sign the bank card receipts... I didn't see any 1000 baht/free bag promotion, though... The girl at the register said she though they had made the change in the past two months or so.

Both the AEON and CitiBank ATM withdrawals were 1000 baht in the afternoon.

Rate for the AEON withdrawal about 4 pm: 30.52 baht

Rate for the CitiBank withdrawal about 4:30 pm: 30.33 baht

Bank of Thailand IER for the day: 30.83

Bangkok Bank Buying TT in the afternoon: 30.65

[Pib]

From my own experiences in funds transfers to Bkk Bank, considering the associated fees (even with no sending bank outgoing ACH fee), getting the TT rate in the funds transfer, and using the Bkk Bank Be1st debit/ATM card for POS purchases, I make out better using a credit card which gives at least the Sight Bill exchange rate "and" has no foreign transaction fee. Any cash rewards is just ice cream on top of the cake....and fortunately, right now I getting that ice cream with my Cap One credit card.

[jfchandler]

Well, I just solved the mystery of my VISA/Cirrus debit card that wouldn't do POS purchases...

Got on the phone with the small U.S. bank tonight, and discovered that (even though they certainly don't disclose this or in any way tell their customers), it happens to be this particular bank's individual policy to automatically block any and all international POS charges against their debit cards... The reason, they said, too much international bank card fraud...

Fortunately, after explaining this to me, they were willing to either do a temporary travel lifting of that ban, or nicely, an ongoing permanent lifting of that ban...at my request... Though I also took the opportunity to have them lower the daily POS limit on the card just for security reasons...

So it turns out, the POS problems didn't have anything to do with the card's Cirrus status... it was just the good ole' bank back home watching out for its customers... I did suggest to the supervisor I spoke with, however, that it might be a neighborly thing for them to actually disclose that kind of restriction to their customers, if they're going to have it.

[Pib]

jfc

Good to hear the core problem was found. This also means my gut is probably not rotted out by Chang beer as I mentioned in post number 36. To celebrate I going to Lotus today and buy two more cases of Chang beer with my Cap One credit card and get my 2% cash reward also...heck, I might even upgrade a little and buy Leo beer.

Now I just need to decide if I want to try to open Cap One banking account primarily just to get their no foreign transaction fee debit card and to have another backup method of getting funds without fees. This would be a backup to my recently opened Charles Schwab accounts. Cap One's current interest checking at 1.01% with the debit card that has no foreign transaction fee and and hopefully reimburses ATM fees worldwide (otherwise I'll just AEON ATMs) looks pretty good.

Cheers,

Pib

[llp]

Since Capital One ATM cards switched to Cirrus and no longer works on AEON ATMS, I withdrew at a SCB ATM.

Three transactions one each on three cards for 15,150 Baht all at $495.52 on Feb 4th 2:40pm.

30.27 on my money (better to exchange $100 USD notes given this rate)

30.57 if there wasn't a fee

--------------

If I open a Capital One Online Checking account this would come with a debit card, would this work an AEON ATM? Or is it also now on the non compatible Cirrus network.?

However, I assume it will still work for a counter withdrawal as it has a Mastercard or Visa logo.

[JimGant]

Schwab VISA (no FCF) POS purchase this evening: 30.82 rate

377.25 baht purchase and $12.24 debit to my account.

Thanks. That comes out right on target from the Visa site for 4 Feb:

Visa FX

(1/.032445)

This is a lot closer to the IER than the TT, which sounds good. I just wonder if that rate holds when it 'finalizes?' With my Cirrus credit cards, I get a "pending" amount that is very near the IER; then a couple days later, when it finalizes, it drops -- even when the dollar has been rising. Example: 27 Jan I made a purchase whose dollar amount, when it posted as 'pending,' came out to an FX of 30.94 (X-rate was 30.92). A day or two later, it finalized on my statement -- at an FX of 30.57 (this before any 1% fee taken into account). The TT rate for that day was 30.67. Going to the MC FX website, the 30.57 FX matched exactly the posted rate for 27 Jan.

(Their website is: MC FX

However, it doesn't seem to working as of late.....)

Anyway, it appears Visa/PLUS gives better POS FX rates than does MC/Cirrus. And, thanks JFC in advance for any more data points you can provide......

[jfchandler]

Cap One is a bit funny about opening online checking accounts....

They're very particular about applicants having a U.S. residence address tied to their accounts... And then, they'll only allow online applications for checking accounts if the applicant's residence address based on zip code is located in an area where they don't have physical branches.... If your address is where they have physical branches, they'll force you to open a new checking account thru the branch, and the online option will be removed.

As for their MC logo debit cards, I don't think we know for sure yet how they will play with AEON ATMs.... But my guess is they WILL work with AEON ATMs, based on the card being a MC logo debit card and AEON ATMs accepting MC logo cards, notwithstanding the Cirrus network issue.

I gained a bit of confidence about that with AEON yesterday when I was able to successfully make an AEON ATM cash withdrawal using a different U.S. bank debit card -- a VISA logo debit card that also happens to only have the Cirrus network on the rear. If that card works with AEON, then a MC logo debit card with only Cirrus on the rear (now Cap One) ought to work as well.

I should add, the above comment relates to Cap One's MC logo debit card, associated with their checking account.

Their ATM card (no VISA or MC logo) associated with their savings accounts, which now runs thru the Cirrus network, apparently will not work since AEON appears to not accept Cirrus cards. However, I've yet to be able to make that kind of withdrawal to be able to personally confirm it. However, the denial has been reported here by another TV member who tried it.

PS - Jim, the Schwab POS from last night still shows pending this morning and no change to the debit amount, as yet. FWIW, I haven't noticed in the past any debit amount changes with Schwab when the debits become final... But now that you've raised the issue with a different bank, I'll pay closer attention to this....

Edited February 5, 2011 by jfchandler

[JimGant]

From my own experiences in funds transfers to Bkk Bank, considering the associated fees (even with no sending bank outgoing ACH fee), getting the TT rate in the funds transfer, and using the Bkk Bank Be1st debit/ATM card for POS purchases, I make out better using a credit card which gives at least the Sight Bill exchange rate "and" has no foreign transaction fee. Any cash rewards is just ice cream on top of the cake....and fortunately, right now I getting that ice cream with my Cap One credit card.

Yeah, Pib, Capitol One will always put you ahead of the game. My USAA Visa and MC cards do not 'eat' the 1% Cirrus foreign transaction fee -- but the 1% cash back feature *does* cancel out, penny for penny, the Cirrus fee. Thus, for POS transactions, I end up with an exchange rate that averages out to 99.7% of the TT rate. So, when the baht is in the 31-to-1 arena, the break-even point with an ACH transaction is $8700. ($20000 would get me 99.87% of the TT, while $5000 would be 99.55%.)

Anyway, fun and games with math. I don't like debit cards, particularly Thai ones, so I'll stick with my US credit card regardless of a sometimes minor loss. But, Cap One sure has my eye.....

[jfchandler]

Anyway, fun and games with math. I don't like debit cards, particularly Thai ones, so I'll stick with my US credit card regardless of a sometimes minor loss. But, Cap One sure has my eye.....

Jim, do you mean you're interested in the Cap One credit card or their debit card/checking account.

On the credit card, Pib's MC is getting 2% cash back and no FCF on his grocery type purchases, and 1% back on other stuff.

On the MC debit card, there's also no FCF and I believe up to $10 per month in ATM fee reimbursements, though I'm not sure we've heard much from TV members on whether those actually work with the Thai 150 baht fees. No cash back on the debit card.

PS - I think I can guess...but for everyone's knowledge... what is it you particularly don't like about Thai bank debit cards?

PPS - I'd be interested and curious to see what would happen if we made simultaneous purchases, one using a Cap One MC logo credit card and the other using a Cap One VISA logo credit card, to see how the respective exchange rates would emerge....

[JimGant]

In my experience, mostly with VISA/PLUS logo cards for cash w/ds, the CitiBank ATMs there at Asoke seem to always provide a slightly lower exchange rate than do the AEON ATMs -- even when using the same card and at as close a time as possible, traveling from Asoke to the nearest AEON.

Rate for the AEON withdrawal about 4 pm: 30.52 baht

Rate for the CitiBank withdrawal about 4:30 pm: 30.33 baht

As you know, if you're getting a lower FX rate from one ATM machine than another -- using the same ATM/Debit card, then (barring DCC or ATM owner flat fees) this is strictly a function of the network. And it's looking more and more like the Cirrus network is less favorable than Visa/PLUS.

And, if you've got a card with a Visa logo on the front, and Cirrus on the back, CitiBank machines will defer to Cirrus, which is their network of choice, and which is the brand on all their cards.

But when you get to Aeon, your Visa logo allows you to ride the PLUS network -- since Cirrus is not an option. And you reap the fairer exchange rate of the PLUS network.

I gained a bit of confidence about that with AEON yesterday when I was able to successfully make an AEON ATM cash withdrawal using a different U.S. bank debit card -- a VISA logo debit card that also happens to only have the Cirrus network on the rear. If that card works with AEON, then a MC logo debit card with only Cirrus on the rear (now Cap One) ought to work as well.

I don't quite follow, JFC... From what I understand, AEON has severed their association with MC/Cirrus. So, a MC logo and a Cirrus mention won't work anymore at AEON (as, I believe, someone reported). Your card has to have at least a Visa logo -- or a PLUS mention. IMO.

Oh, do those CitiBank ATMs have a Visa or PLUS logo? Would be enlightening to go there with a MC/Cirrus card and a strictly Visa/PLUS card -- and take out money from the same machine, back to back, and compare the exchange rates....