- The incessant partisan bashing. The fact is everyone got caught with their pants down, from the citizens, to the local, regional and national governments. If one wants to do political bashing, then do it across the broad spectrum. Over and above the damage, there is more than enough fault and blame to go around.

- The constant media focus on NO while ignoring the vast majority of other areas. NO is still standing. Other places like Gulfport MS were literally leveled. Just another sad example of the modern news media concentrating on sensationalism and opinion rather than just reporting.

- (Probably get hammered for this one but ...) The constant complaining of the welfare state people in NO. Yes this is a disaster. Yes people are suffering. Yes people are trying to help. But watching people standing around complaining about the strench of dead bodies and bitching about when the government is going to come in and take them away, when they could be just taking some control and doing it for themselves. What's wrong with that? People complaining about the floor of the Superdome becoming a cesspool. You're telling me that people are just p*ssing and sh*ting everywhere they want to, instead of trying to localize it. What's wrong with that? I think many of these people are in the situation they are in, because they have been trained their whole lives to wait for government to give them a handout rather than trying to make their own way. Of course these people are in trouble, and yest they do need help. But for most of them, they are in the state they are in because they choose to live and remained ingrained in the welfare state.

- The complete crack-up of the NO mayor and police chief under duress. Most people tend to do just fine when there is no pressure, but most usually show their true colors when the heat is on. These guys completely lost their composure and cracked up. What they really need to do is keep their perspective and positive focus, despite all the adversity. That is the sign of true leadership, to remain positive through all events, to provide signs of hope, and to remain calm and tell people what they are doing rather than complaining about what other people are not doing for them.

- No proposals for radical new ideas to make this disaster a turning point in people's lives and give them a chance for a new life. Here's a thought. For everyone who has lost their home, build them a new one. For those who were living in slums, build new high rise condo's and just give them to people. Make them homeowners. Give them some equity. For everyone who has been made homeless, give them a one time cash payout of $25K or $50K, something to help them get started on a new life. American can afford it. What would it take, a few billion dollars to make that happen? We have that kind of money.

That's just the short list. What about you?

You're right Spee. The people in the countryside to the north east probably have it real bad. Many small towns are simply gone. There's a typhoon bashing eastern asia right now too.

The concentration of media however is in New Orleans.

Looks like Texas is doing one heck of a job of taking people in. Good on 'em

cv

I was about to post this:

There is enough blame to go all around at all levels. This thing is massive. This is bureaucracy responding and a newly established one too. The Office of Homeland Security is new and its channels have been untested. No one knew how bad this was because everything was wiped out. There were no telecommunications. The hurricane moved from a category 1 to a cat 5 to a cat 4 in a short time. Can you imagine the number of calls coming in on what limited satellite phones there were? The disaster area is the size of GB. Imagine the calls coming in from all over that size of an area and no one has been up in the air to see it yet. They couldn't respond to every call. They had to begin to get a picture of things. It was chaos.

SNAFU ( situation normal all fkd up) or FUBAR (fkd up beyond all recognition, they are terms which come about from individual soldiers describing the massive bureacracy in the US military. Bureauracies are not lightening fast and accurate.

If the government is going to move 7000 troops into an area they must move in the logistics to support them too. How do you feed 7000 troops? How do you carry in their transportation and fuel? How do you get them in? by air?

It is amazing how officials get caught up and get manipulated by the atmosphere the media generates.

Look at what is happening. Already partisans have turned this misery into a political and racial issue. The republicans want to get re-elected implying they don't care doesn't make sense. In a time where unity is needed people divide America. The 2008 election ambitions are not greater than the welfare of the country.

It used to be people held off their analysis until after the mission was accomplished and the facts were in. Some people may look at the contention as democracy in action. I don't know. I prefer a united front during the crisis. I understand the need to speak up or people get lost in the chaos and I understand we sit around and banter politics but our leaders whether its in the governmet or the media should practice behavior that instills confidence.

Edited September 3, 200520 yr by aughie

Caught a sound byte on CNN - an old black lady said to the camera - Bush will never have my vote again. I'm thinking well - yank president can only be elected two terms, so thats a pretty stupid thing to say.

Caught a sound byte on CNN - an old black lady said to the camera - Bush will never have my vote again. I'm thinking well - yank president can only be elected two terms, so thats a pretty stupid thing to say.

Considering what she's been through, I would excuse her saying something stupid.

And your excuse is?

cv

Cdnvic - a lil levity goes a long way matey!!!

For the other side:

Bushism - those that dont need gas do not fill up your tank.

Edited September 3, 200520 yr by britmaveric

Cdnvic - a lil levity goes a long way matey!!!

For the other side:

Bushism - those that dont need gas do not fill up your tank. 

Fair enough.

The good news is -- and it's hard for some to see it now -- that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house -- he's lost his entire house -- there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch." (Laughter) --George W. Bush, touring hurricane damage, Mobile, Ala., Sept. 2, 2005

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/blbushisms.htm

cv

(Probably get hammered for this one but ...) The constant complaining of the welfare state people in NO. Yes this is a disaster. Yes people are suffering. Yes people are trying to help. But watching people standing around complaining about the strench of dead bodies and bitching about when the government is going to come in and take them away, when they could be just taking some control and doing it for themselves. What's wrong with that? People complaining about the floor of the Superdome becoming a cesspool. You're telling me that people are just p*ssing and sh*ting everywhere they want to, instead of trying to localize it. What's wrong with that? I think many of these people are in the situation they are in, because they have been trained their whole lives to wait for government to give them a handout rather than trying to make their own way. Of course these people are in trouble, and yest they do need help. But for most of them, they are in the state they are in because they choose to live and remained ingrained in the welfare state.

i think high dependence on welfare strips you of dignity and renders you unable and/or unwilling to help yourself. you remain a child all your life , accepting the aid , but never wanting to do anything for yourself.

compare the reaction of tsunami victims in indonesia, thailand,etc. with the inertia of the new orleans victims to see the difference between a welfare society and a society where you are responsible for your own well being.

i guess americans (and other westerners) have been used to the good life with everything laid on for so long , that to suddenly find themselves living in the stone age is beyond belief for them.

americans and other high consuming societies may now have some idea now of how a large proportion of the world has to live for most of the time...... no food , no medicine, no law and order , no security , no transport , no wastage or frivolous use of resources.

and hopefully it will show them there is a vast and unfair gap between their lives and the lives of the majority of the planet and they should appreciate what they have and not waste it.

- The incessant partisan bashing. The fact is everyone got caught with their pants down, ....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With the greatest of respect, Spee, but 5 days delay - and I say this as someone who has worked nearly all my life with an international emergency service - 5 days delay is not being caught with your pants down, it's being caught with you pants down, one finger up your ass, the other hand doing the unmentionable, laying on a sun bed, drinking whisky, pretending to be a President and NOT GIVING A GODAMN!

So many of the complaints being heard from N.O. could be considered self-inflicted.

After all, they knew this was coming (unlike the tsunami where many places received no warning, they knew days in advance that the hurricane would most likely hit that area). Hundreds of thousands of people left the area ahead of time. Others stayed for what ever reason(s), and now complain that no one is supporting them or doing enought to rescue them.

Yes, some people thought they would stay and guard their homes. Lot of good that does when the flood waters are higher than your roof. A lot stayed behind no doubt hoping for just this kind of situation to arise. There were a couple of stories about people complaining that they weren't being given food or medicine (medicine for what ? They think somebody should just drop huge quantities of "medicine" to them ?).

Meanwhile, people were bypassing food aisles to loot steroes, TVs and other high-end goods. {Smart thinking. I'm starving to death, but I'll steal a TV (and put it where exactly ?), and then wait for someone to bring food to me ?}

I read an article this morning about tourists complaining no one is doing enough to save them. They arrived a day or 2 before the storm hit, at a time when many of the residents were leaving.

Hmmm, let's see. There is a major hurricane aimed right at New Orleans, packing winds of 2-300 km/hr. Everybody is being advised to evacuate, as the most of the city sits below sea level. What the hey, I think I'll go there anyways, and then complain when no one is able to rescue me immediately after the storm wipes out half the city.

(yeah, just a little sarcasm there)

They put 10's of thousands of people into a sports stadium built to accommodate 10's of thousands and what do they do ? They break most of the plumbing and then complain they have no where to go to the bathroom or shower.

Some take advantage of the situation to rob, rape and kill others. One man found his 10 year old daughter raped and murdered in the stadium.

The governments reaction seems to have been a little short-sighted. Planning for the "best case" scenario and hoping the worst wouldn't happen. They knew there was a potential for the levees to fail, and that the city would be flooded, yet it seems they did little to prepare for it.

Having additional police and National Guardsmen on standby is kind of useless when everything is submerged in 10-20 feet of water, and you don't have boats.

How ever, remember that the response they were ready to provide had to be altered due to circumstances. Instead of patrolling against looting, many resources had to be diverted to rescuing those that chose to stay and were then stranded.

Even those efforts had to be changed, when idiots started shooting at the helicopters.

I also took offense to the media claiming this to be "America's Tsunami", totally belittling the hundreds of THOUSANDS that died in the Dec 26 tragedy. Sort of like how the same media suddenly claimed Princess Diana as "America's Princess" after she died.

The response was pathetic, even Bush knows that. I don't like the partisan side of this either.....but one thing it does clearly show is that this administration has shown that it is incompetent in handling this crisis.....this says nothing about whether some other administration would have done better or not. Rather than to look back to the past and enter into partisan bickering, lets look forward...we know that the people running the show now have screwed up big time...we need to see what changes they will make in the near future and decide if we think that they are improving the response capability or not...then vote to let people know if we trust them or not.

For everyone who has been made homeless, give them a one time cash payout of $25K or $50K, something to help them get started on a new life.

Can start a nice little crack cocaine dealing business with that kind of capital.

The response was pathetic, even Bush knows that.  I don't like the partisan side of this either.....but one thing it does clearly show is that this administration has shown that it is incompetent in handling this crisis.....this says nothing about whether some other administration would  have done better or not.  Rather than to look back to the past and enter into partisan bickering, lets look forward...we know that the people running the show now have screwed up big time...we need to see what changes they will make in the near future and decide if we think that they are improving the response capability or not...then vote to let people know if we trust them or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a pattern. This administration has been screwed up since day 1. They are incompetent, period. Their highly partisan agenda keep them from doing their job correctly and it shows.

First they screwed up on 911, then Iraq, then this. It will happen again because this administration doesn't learn and doesn't want to learn.

It will happen again because this administration doesn't learn and doesn't want to learn.

They won re-Election. They're either doing something right, or have fooled everyone. In either case fair play to 'em.

You get the Government you deserve.

Lot's of anti-Bush people here it seems.

Let me begin by mentioning that I am not an American.

I would like to ask the anti's though, where do you think we would be now if someone else was in power ?

Would Saddam still be in power, slaughtering thousands, trying to acquire WMDs to launch at Israel, paying bonus's to the families of suicide bombers (and still occupying Kuwait, were it not for George Snr) ?

What other leader would stand up to people like that ?

People like George (Jr) keep China from attacking Taiwan. People like George keep groups like the Taliban and Al-Queda from getting even larger and more dangerous.

What if it had been some other leader in the White House after 9/11. What do you think America's response would have been ? A "shucks, gosh darn, that wasn't very nice. Here, let me bend over so you can stick it to me again" kind of response ?

Maybe Dubya and company aren't perfect, or even dubiously competent. Who do you think could do better and why ? Hillary ? Pat Robertson ? Al Buchanan ? Al (Bore you to death) Gore ?

Do you think any of those others would have sat back and done nothing after 9/11 ?

How do you think those others would have reacted to the intelligence that said Saddam had Weapons of Mass Destruction and was prepared to use them ? We know now that that information was flawed (maybe George knew beforehand, maybe not).

If any other leader had of received the same info, what do you think they would have done ? Nothing ? Just sat there waiting, taking the chance that maybe Saddam wouldn't use those weapons ?

What if the intelligence had been accurate, and nobody did anything, and saddam had used those weapons on Israel ? What kind of fall-out do you think would have happened if the people learned that the President knew beforehand (that Saddam had the weapons) and did nothing ?

It's pretty easy to condemn somebody when you don't know all the facts, and you let other people influence your decisions. If you are going to do so, you should be able to present alternatives and explain why you think somebody else could have done a better job.

Even Bill Clinton launched a few missiles during his time at the top, and not all of them came out of his trousers !

It will happen again because this administration doesn't learn and doesn't want to learn.

They won re-Election. They're either doing something right, or have fooled everyone. In either case fair play to 'em.

You get the Government you deserve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agree. I wasn't surprised when they cheated on the second election. I was hoping for it to be more dramatic. Instead Kerry gave up. What a loser.

There is plenty of blame on all sides, but the fact remains that in the event of yet another diaster, there are grave doubts about this administration's intent and ability.

For those of you who are weary of this being a partisian event, where were you during the whole debate on Clinton's blowjob? Somehow it was ok for conservatives to turn that into a political crisis, but when legitimate alarms are raised about how this administration has justified and mishandled every single crisis since taking office we're merely playing politics.

This is not just an issue of the "dependant welfare class" but working poor as well. And by the way, the poor are not the only group to receive handouts from the government. Almost the entire white, suburban middle-class in America was fomented by tax-subsidies which enabled them to own their first homes or businesses during the pre-Civil Rights 1950s/60s. Most of this property has appreciated quite nicely over the years, while the redlining and disinvestment of inner-cities had the opposite effect. So spare me your independent, libertarian, every-man-for-themself fantasies. In addition to mainstream history, you need to study the history of cities to fully understand the formation of ghettos within the framework of race and racist policies.

Americans on this thread say that they hate that this has been made into a racial issue. I don't know where you've been, but race has always been an issue in American policy. And, the *current* display of negligence and incompetence by this administration suggests that it still is a factor.

Do many poor people and underclass minorities need to take more responsibiltiy for their lives - yes; Was there any excuse for the dehumanizing and barbaric display that took place inside the Superdome -no; However, if you are trying to say, in effect, that the only people responsible for race in America are the poor, black people and other have nots, you are not only woefully misinformed, but your misinformation and denial is part of a larger phenemenom that has been in effect since the first divisions began and are self-serving, to put it mildly.

Personally, I cannot believe the astonishment of some of how race could be a factor, when the Civil Rights Act was just passed in 1964. That is not even a lifetime.

edit

Edited September 4, 200520 yr by kat

This is not a race issue - blacks got the sh*t end of the deal - what's new?

This is not a political issue - Liberals have never faced a disaster of such magnitude, and when tested with crises e.g. Iran Hostages, they have demonstrated similar ineptitude.

This is a straight forward administrative issue.

Where officials with responsibility, from the President on down, have demonstrated to the world, that History's most advanced nation in all of the relevant areas: money, communications, transport, engineering, logistics, manpower - could not react to a disaster in its own front room - within 5 days!

This is scandalous out of all proportion.

The only question that could have some political significance is, who is ultimately responsible for such incompetence on a federal and state level? Where does the buck stop?

Who is Captain of this sunken ship?

It will happen again because this administration doesn't learn and doesn't want to learn.

They won re-Election. They're either doing something right, or have fooled everyone. In either case fair play to 'em.

You get the Government you deserve.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agree. I wasn't surprised when they cheated on the second election. I was hoping for it to be more dramatic. Instead Kerry gave up. What a loser.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

OT, no commie thread hijacking please.

An American friend of mine pointed to the fact that the responsibility for emergency procedures and funding etc is the resonsibility of the State rather than the US government. The Louisiana and Mississipi are (allegedly) the 2 most corrupt states in the US. Millions have been squandered/pilfered , money that may have been spent on evacuation methods etc. Still no excuse for the US government slow response, but perhaps , as always, there are many sides to this aftermath, some may never surface.

Edited September 4, 200520 yr by chonabot

This is not a race issue - blacks got the sh*t end of the deal - what's new?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is not about race. It just so happens that the affected area is majority black population. The problem is people like you and that neo-racist Jesse Jackson always say the problems exist because of racial discrimination, when it has nothing to do with it.

I was completely astounded that it took 6 days for Jackson to get his racist mug into the limelight and start bitching. That guy makes me sick. He became a multimillionaire of the backs of the unfortunate people he claims to represent. Excuse me, I have to go puke.

Who is Captain of this sunken ship?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well gee...... let me think ....... hmmmmm .....

There's the local mayor and police chief and all the resources at their disposal. Oh, that's right. They cracked up.

There's the local governor and all the resources available at her disposal. Where the heck was she?

Then there's FEMA, Federal Emergency Management Authority. They had services engaged as the storm loomed. Ok, it took some time to get there. But they were/are engaged.

Finally at the top of the food chain, there's the Prez. He was on the move and getting things going within 24 hours of the full aftermath realization.

What did people expect? Instantaneous resolution of all problems? People did the best they could under the circumstances. The problem is that with the welfare state, the bleeding hearts, bush-bashers, and the like, there is no possible response scenario that would have been satisfactory.

Wanna blame the Prez? Whatever. Feel free to be misdirected. I mean really. Does anyone honestly believe in their right mind that the Prez was completely apathetic to these problems for a week? Get real!

For everyone who has been made homeless, give them a one time cash payout of $25K or $50K, something to help them get started on a new life.

Can start a nice little crack cocaine dealing business with that kind of capital.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not everyone who is given an opportunity for self-determination will make the right decision. Doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a good thing to do.

Who is Captain of this sunken ship?

So far i've heard the Mayor whining.

Various Lousiana Senators trying to apportion blame.

...and I just think, 'isn't it your job buddy?'

Those who are supposed to take responsbility, as paid, elected reps of the people, are the one's pointing fingers elsewhere.

So it seems to me what some people are saying is, if Al Qaeda rustled up a couple of ships and a troop transporter, landed in Mississippi - Louisiana, starting wrecking havoc and moving north, it would still understandably take the authorities and the President (who undoubtedly will be at least as concerned as he was for the plight of the pre and post hurricane American citizens) - it will still take these honourable men 5 days to get off their respective asses?

God help America.

So it seems to me what some people are saying is, if Al Qaeda rustled up a couple of ships and a troop transporter, landed in Mississippi - Louisiana, starting wrecking havoc and moving north, it would still understandably take the authorities and the President (who undoubtedly will be at least as concerned as he was for the plight of the pre and post hurricane American citizens) - it will still take these honourable men 5 days to get off their respective asses?

God help America.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TM, your "logic" is truly scary.

asses

I do wish you'd stop saying 'asses' in every other post.

asses

I do wish you'd stop saying 'asses' in every other post.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh I know you prefer &lt;deleted&gt;, darling, but it's so our American cousins can understand.

Kisses

The response to the disaster was a nightmare!! Anyone who can't see that has been politically blinded....Bush knows it was a nightmare...its not a secret that is was a total nightmare. Those of you trying to make excuses for it are being ludicrous beyond belief....look at what happened and how long it took for anything to happen...tens of thousands of people were in one location waiting for evacuation for how many days????? How many days did it take for the first food or water to be dropped on them???? How many days before anyone was evacuated????? A total nightmare and no amount of questioning who was or was not to blame or who should or should not have been doing whatever and no amount of black versus white or rich versus poor or who could have done better will change the obvious fact that the response to this disaster was a nightmare.

The real question: How is Faux News spinning all this ? are they pissed to the prez or are they trying to cover this administrationn "arse" one more time ?

Any Faux News watcher here could give us some feedback ? spee ? you are a big fan of Faux, aren't you ?

Edited September 4, 200520 yr by Butterfly

So it seems to me what some people are saying is, if Al Qaeda rustled up a couple of ships and a troop transporter, landed in Mississippi - Louisiana, starting wrecking havoc and moving north, it would still understandably take the authorities and the President (who undoubtedly will be at least as concerned as he was for the plight of the pre and post hurricane American citizens) - it will still take these honourable men 5 days to get off their respective asses?

God help America.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

TM, your "logic" is truly scary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What is really scary is can how you trust this administration to protect its citizens from an unexpected terrorist attack when it has demonstrated its inability to react sensibly to a forewarned and heralded hurricane and shown, what can only be fairly described as incompetence, in rescuing distressed and vulnerable citizens in the 5 days after the event.

I have defended the Bush policy on the Iraq war and will continue to do so because I know the alternatives will be far worse. But this defence now has become very difficult.

As I have said to my co-workers on many occasions, if you cannot look after your own family, how in heaven's name can you expect to look after someone else's.