Chiang Mai Court Sentenced Akha Hill Tribe Man To Life For Murder Of British Composer David Crisp

[vicdrip]

[

]

[b]How can you possibly know such details about these young men? How do you know that the victim was a predator? Unless you knew those involved personally, the victim could have just as easily been a kind benefactor. Also, are you honestly suggesting that if there were no foreigners in Thailand, there would be no sex industry? Your comments appear to be both naive and foolish.[/b]

[Jingthing]

It's always a good thing to hear that a murderer has been brought to justice. This other stuff, about the sexuality of the murder victim, is completely irrelevant.

Well, I take that back a bit. In many parts of the world, sexual minority victims (and rape victims, etc.) end of being tried instead of the culprits (as some posters here are clearly doing online), so it's doubly good to know that at least sometimes in Thailand it is about the criminal being on trial, and not the victim.

[georgie48]

I am surprised by some of the comments calling the prostitutes lazy because they do not take up legitimate jobs. Surely, people who have been living in Thailand for some time are aware that most hill tribes people are non citizens. As non citizens they are locked out of many legitimate jobs.. They are not even given full access to the Thai education system. The literacy rate is well below 50%. Do some of the people pasing judgement calling them lazy understand that? What do you want people who are uneducated and that cannot legally work to do? People will undertake illegal activities if it means surviving. What options aside from making trinkets and subsistence farming does Thailand give these hill tribes people?

For the sake of the discussion please take into consideration the status of the hill tribe people and their well documented environment of abuse and poverty. The usury that goes on is a tool to exploit and supress a vulnerable population. Please read some of the studies and reports published by reputable organizations. People are opining as if the Akha people are treated as anything but dirt in Thailand. Do you know what Thais call Hill Tribes people? Its ekaw or egaw, the Thai variant of the N word. As has been pointed out by others, when you take children and subject them to long term abuse, they grow up to do some terrible things. We see it with child soldiers in Africa. We see it with the street gangs in Central America and Brazil. Please do not label the condemned parties as worthy of additional suffering as their lives have most likely been one of misery since they were born.

I am not crying the blues for the accused. However, no effort has been made to understand a concept termed mitigating circumstances. When one is poor in Thailand, one really doesn't have access to quality legal counsel. Guilty pleas are coerced and statements that put a crime in context are rarely presented. The accused took the guilty plea with no significant defense mounted because the death penalty would have been a certainty otherwise. Is that justice? This does not excuse a murder However, the violent act has to be put in context. One of the accused had been a drug addict from an early age and allegedly had been abused, as are many of the hill tribe people. This aspect of the crime has been glossed over, but that's what my understanding of the pretrial report was. If I have it wrong, then correct me. There is a slight sanitized mention of it by a police officer. It should not come as a surprise that the background of the accused was not taken into consideration since it is almost never done when it comes to the poor and especially the Hill Tribes people. This was justice Thai style. There can be no healing until there is forgiveness and one cannot forgive unless one understands why the murder happened.

A long term adolescent drug user is incapable of rational thought. One can blame him for being a junkie, but why not ask the question as to how and why he became a junkie. Why not ask the question if the accused was using drugs during his stay at the home. How did he pay for the drugs? Many aspects of the case are not detailed because of a need to be PC and a desire to spare the family additional pain.

Hill tribes people just don't pick the sex trade as a career choice. Those that end up in it are groomed for it starting at an early age. It's like a factory production line. I'm not a social activist or a liberal, but when I view documentation of pediatric physical injuries including some horrific injuries to the genitalia and anus, combined with the documented histories assembled by reputable health organizations, I know there is a problem. Before passing moral judgement on the guilty parties, please go and do the leg work. Have a chat with people from groups like Ahka Heritage Foundation. Do not confuse the sex workers of Phuket and Pattaya with what goes on with Hill tribes people. People that claim to have spoken with some of these marginalized sex trade workers need to work on their listening skills. One can easily pick up the sense of frustration and the anger that they have against themselves and against the world around them. There are some very screwed up angry people in that population. The sex trade in rural areas is a grim, depressing existence with marginal income with the only freebies being Hepatitis and HIV. On a good day, the infection rate is only 10-15% of a sample population. If that population was in Geneva, we would declare a public health emergency. Do you know how depressing it is to see that in a data collection of 21-35 year olds? Go and talk to the public health workers. You'll get an earful.

Yes it is a tragedy that Mr. Crisp was killed. It was a criminal offense. It is also a tragedy that 3 young men will spend the rest of their lives in prison. This type of event can be avoided if foreigners do not go to bars and select drug addicted destitute men or women for sex. It can also be prevented if young people are given an alternative to the sex trade to survive & pay off family debts.

Whilst in general - someof what is written is true. however - i sugges the writer actually investigates further - as he says - go out and do the leg work. i know several guys who work in the bars - and they like the money. i know a couple of guys who previously worked in the bars - saved a few grand (and it is not very difficult when you are getting 1000 or 2000 per trick) then gets a job. Yes there are jobs to be had - one is now a good electrician - the other works painting and decorating - and i heard a rumour that the Thai Government is now giving 2 year visas to Burmese/hilltribe people. Whilst i agree it is not easy for the guys - it is also not impossible - and some just come here for a few months during the high season - make abit of money then go home. Also i know a couple of people who frequent the girly bars - and we discussed it with some Thai friends - generally - the girls have little or no choice - but usually the guys do. Guys - or Hilltribe people - they hear about the 'goodlife' - how easy it is - and decide to give it a go - Girls often have someone 'looking after them' and therefore cannot leave. Also another point - unless i am mistaken - it is 1 man that has a life sentence - the other 2 are still on the run - or am i mistaken. As i said - the writer should actually check what he wrote

[Paagai]

It is also a tragedy that 3 young men will spend the rest of their lives in prison.

With this one sentence GK utterly destroys the credibility of his own arguments. If you actually knew what you were talking about, rather than just going on a bleeding heart, poor hilltribe victim campaign with scant reagrd for the facts, you'd know that only one of them is in prison. The tragedy is he is likely another "victim" and scape goat for the other two.

David Crisp was a friend of mine. I also know something about the perpetrators - not something for this forum. One of them is about as far away from the picture GK is trying to paint as you can imagine.

There is a lot of this story that is untold and should remain so. If you have nothing better to do in your life than go on Internet Forums offering wild speculation then that's your problem But, in doing so please do not denigrate the memory of a good man.

[peacefulwarrior]

Clear case, the 'teacher' had three supposedly gay men in his 'household'. This was probably a dispute about some behinds or lack of 'compensation' for services. Another sorry teacher story for the country. Another bad example how much down there is a direct consequence of 'relationships' and their nuances. How many men in Pattaya have been undone by gold diggers or are going to be in the next few years while they wait for 'their man' to quietly die off and run away with the loot. Sad, sad, sad...

[mickyboy]

Left out of this sad tale is some actual background on Awe Ye Ping. Ok, so he was 22 years old and the 56 year old deceased would take regularly select him for sexual activity. There is a brief mention of the condemned young man's drug use. But, there is nothing about this kid as a human being. Doesn't anyone want to know why a kid could be driven to a murder like this, why he had no problem killing someone? Is it more convenient to believe that it was because of some dirty dishes?

What's missing from this story and a few of the other news items is more detail about the condemned and the two other young male prostitutes. No mention of the influence of years of abuse and exploitation. These 3 young men were impoverished, uneducated and in the case of one, a drug addict and were working as prostitutes. When young people are exploited and abused is it any wonder why they don't place a value on life? Years of being exploited usually lead to a manifestation of violence. These 3 young men are the face of prostitution in Thailand. I suppose that's too unpleasant for some to consider. Instead, we get a story that's politically correct.

I will get slammed for being insensitive and cruel. However, am I to believe that the deceased was motivated by altruistic concern for these 3 young men? Or, is the truth of the story that this was just another foreigner in Thailand taking advantage of destitute refugees that picked the boy who's psyche had reached the point of no return? Mr. Crisp chose to take advantage of vulnerable young men and he paid the price.

It is unfortunate that Mr. Crisp died, but one thing is certain. Mr. Crisp won't be exploiting marginalized destitute refugees anymore.Yea, yea, I'm so insensitive.

I'm sorry, I've seen some of these kids and so many of them are seriously screwed up courtesy of the sex trade and foreigners that have a wonderful public personna, but are evil incarnate when out of sight.

well theres no more marmite for him

[Somtamnication]

It sounds like the apologists on the forum will believe that, hypothetically, if we were 100 years back, these same 3 hilltribe boys would be doing tricks to the French and the Dutch...

And if we go back 200 years, they would be tricking with the village chiefs. Really? The culture that we brought to this country over the past 60 odd years has created this issue. Not the hilltribes.

[a99az]

Left out of this sad tale is some actual background on Awe Ye Ping. Ok, so he was 22 years old and the 56 year old deceased would take regularly select him for sexual activity. There is a brief mention of the condemned young man's drug use. But, there is nothing about this kid as a human being. Doesn't anyone want to know why a kid could be driven to a murder like this, why he had no problem killing someone? Is it more convenient to believe that it was because of some dirty dishes?

What's missing from this story and a few of the other news items is more detail about the condemned and the two other young male prostitutes. No mention of the influence of years of abuse and exploitation. These 3 young men were impoverished, uneducated and in the case of one, a drug addict and were working as prostitutes. When young people are exploited and abused is it any wonder why they don't place a value on life? Years of being exploited usually lead to a manifestation of violence. These 3 young men are the face of prostitution in Thailand. I suppose that's too unpleasant for some to consider. Instead, we get a story that's politically correct.

I will get slammed for being insensitive and cruel. However, am I to believe that the deceased was motivated by altruistic concern for these 3 young men? Or, is the truth of the story that this was just another foreigner in Thailand taking advantage of destitute refugees that picked the boy who's psyche had reached the point of no return? Mr. Crisp chose to take advantage of vulnerable young men and he paid the price.

It is unfortunate that Mr. Crisp died, but one thing is certain. Mr. Crisp won't be exploiting marginalized destitute refugees anymore.Yea, yea, I'm so insensitive.

I'm sorry, I've seen some of these kids and so many of them are seriously screwed up courtesy of the sex trade and foreigners that have a wonderful public personna, but are evil incarnate when out of sight.

I could not have put it better myself. I bet that the boys have lots that should be taken into account, this is only part of the story, can't imagine what they have had to endure over the years.

[Ulysses G.]

The culture that we brought to this country over the past 60 odd years has created this issue.

Sex for money or gain has been widespread here for centuries. Do not try to blame it on foreigners.

[MAJIC]

Doesn't anyone want to know why a kid could be driven to a murder like this, why he had no problem killing someone?

No, I have absolutely no interest whatsoever. The perp murdered someone and not in self defense, his life wasn't at stake; there's only one guilty party here. Whatever shit he was into and why he was working where he was is totally and utterly irrelevant. This guy didn't make them go to his house, they did't have to go back with him, he didn't have them chained to the wall, he didn't beat them, and he didn't have to murder him because he may have lost a bit of face (how many times have we heard that). In all probability, he was working the sex trade for cash on his own accord to live a better life than in the hills / to have fun / to send cash back to family / to get off on drugs, whatever. Who cares. As I say, totally irrelevant.

I can't for the life of me see why folks get all bent out of shape on stuff like this in favour of the guilty. It's thinking like this that has us where we are at right now in the West regards wrong uns. How's about focusing on the real victim!!

Agreed!

The whole Bleeding Heart Liberal thing, has got totally over top of reason.,with no Sense or Logic, attached to it.

At the last count the UK had 53 Organisations to help the Guilty,including rehousing and many others helping the Ex Cons,to be rehabilitated. But only 3 such Organisation to help the Victims of their Crimes.

Even Myra Hindley and Ian Brady had a strong Lobby/following for early release,including a Lord of the Realm.

Sick,when you consider they Tortured and Murdered Six Children.

Sorry for the off topic,but it makes my blood boil,some crimes are inexcusable and always will be. Including this Murder.

Despite the Wooly Minded Thinkers in our midst.

[Jingthing]

I am a bleeding heart liberal, but the bleeding stops when considering cold blooded murderers.

[LingLek]

And your opinions are not opinionated? The claim that prostitution's a choice is an opinion, an ill-informed one too. You really think that Ning wakes up one morning and says, 'Hmm, Mom, I've been thinking what do you think of me abandoning school and that plan to be a physician or lawyer and head for the bars of Pattaya or Pat Pong instead? Terrific prospects and I might even get to be a Mama San one day.' A choice involves choices, credible alternatives, usually only found amongst those with other equivalent opportunities in life. I don't know what sort of people you know, but the farmers and workers I know do think prostitution IS bad. And as you rightly, if unwittingly point out, parents do put pressure on their children (not to be a prostitute but to get a well-paying job to help them out). The choice here is: do I obey Mom and quit school (which Mom pays for) or not?

Well, you said it yourself in your last sentence. They do make a choice. Our lives are full of choices and we make them, not someone else. And we are personally responsible for these choices and their consequences. Thailand is full of this "it was not my fault" and not to take responsibility for your actions. For you and GK to fall in with their tune just shows lack of insight and downright stupidity.

You are right, it was dumb of me to expect you to be able to complete that last sentence--'The choice here is: do I obey Mom and quit school (which Mom pays for) or not?' This should read 'The choice here is do I obey Mom and quit school (which Mom pays for) or not? which is NO choice at all.' Freedom of choice, like opportunity, is something they teach in Berkeley and other havens of middle class white performative culture, not in the farms of northern Thailand. Ning has no choice. Your life, on the other hand, probably is full of choices, and you do appear to make them. Let's hope you put a little more thought into the next one.

[khundon]

They stole money and his personal items. Just a couple of thieving gay hookers.

Point of order: It is well established that a large percentage of Thai male prostitutes are actually straight. Just ask their girlfriends.

Your homophobia is noted.

<deleted> !!! And just how many "straight" men do you know that indulge in sex with other men, for money or anything else. I very much doubt any "straight" man could get aroused by another man, no matter how much money was on offer.

At the very least, they are Bi sexual and I have no problem with gays or those of a different sexual persuasion. They are all human beings.

Either way, straight, bi sexual or gay, there was no need to resort to murder, no matter how poor or destitute they were. Maybe there is more to come on this story.

Your ignorance is noted.

[Jingthing]

OMG, the naivete. It's called gay for pay, and yes many straight guys on the game. I don't know about you, but I have done a lot of things in my life for money where I was definitely faking it. External acting out is not the same thing as internal sexual orientation, not even close, that's basic psychology for you, bone up on it if you like. If every man who had some same sex experiences in life were gay or bi, straights would be the minority.

Anyway, of course the orientation of the victim or perps isn't the issue in the case; the issue is murder.

[Ulysses G.]

Freedom of choice, like opportunity, is something they teach in Berkeley and other havens of middle class white performative culture, not in the farms of northern Thailand. Ning has no choice.

There are millions of poor people in Thailand doing honest work that refute any such claim.

[housepainter]

Left out of this sad tale is some actual background on Awe Ye Ping. Ok, so he was 22 years old and the 56 year old deceased would take regularly select him for sexual activity. There is a brief mention of the condemned young man's drug use. But, there is nothing about this kid as a human being. Doesn't anyone want to know why a kid could be driven to a murder like this, why he had no problem killing someone? Is it more convenient to believe that it was because of some dirty dishes?

What's missing from this story and a few of the other news items is more detail about the condemned and the two other young male prostitutes. No mention of the influence of years of abuse and exploitation. These 3 young men were impoverished, uneducated and in the case of one, a drug addict and were working as prostitutes. When young people are exploited and abused is it any wonder why they don't place a value on life? Years of being exploited usually lead to a manifestation of violence. These 3 young men are the face of prostitution in Thailand. I suppose that's too unpleasant for some to consider. Instead, we get a story that's politically correct.

I will get slammed for being insensitive and cruel. However, am I to believe that the deceased was motivated by altruistic concern for these 3 young men? Or, is the truth of the story that this was just another foreigner in Thailand taking advantage of destitute refugees that picked the boy who's psyche had reached the point of no return? Mr. Crisp chose to take advantage of vulnerable young men and he paid the price.

It is unfortunate that Mr. Crisp died, but one thing is certain. Mr. Crisp won't be exploiting marginalized destitute refugees anymore.Yea, yea, I'm so insensitive.

I'm sorry, I've seen some of these kids and so many of them are seriously screwed up courtesy of the sex trade and foreigners that have a wonderful public personna, but are evil incarnate when out of sight.

A an example of being intelligent is the demonstrated ability to look at some thing from different view points.

You can't do that.

Some folk may then draw their own conclusions from that and simply move on. Dismissing you outright and I can't blame them for that. You hardly present an informed opinion.

However, I'll show you how wrong you can be. Initially, you ask why he [ the perpetrator ] had no difficulty killing. The obvious answer is that he is a psychopath or szchiophrenic. Both of whom have no difficulty killing. That's why we don't kill, think about it or plan it. It's called being rational, logical, normal. But you choose to ignore the fact. Even when the reason being given is over unclean dishes; classic minor incident which sparks a killing frenzy. Have you heard the phrase 'I don't like Mondays'? Does it mean anything?

When you are mentally ill, killing is because of dirty dishes, loud TV or looked at me the wrong way.

Your description of a terrible life, lived by those in the sex industry, fails to explain or recognise the fact that out of the hundreds of thousands of sex workers the other 99.9% do not committ murder. They do not act psychoticly. They do not fall foul of the law other than like the rest of us, by way of misdeamor. They are to all intents and purposes normal. Living normal lives. Worrying about having enough petrol in the tank to get home. Your excuse that 'moma didn't love me enough' and 'we couldn't afford a Toyota Camry' doesn't explain why most of shrugged it off and went to work. Impoverished, lacking a stable home or coming from a loving, nurturing environment, the 99 % shrug it off and live normally.

We did not go out and murder the shop keeper who gave us the wrong change.

You really do sound homophobic and the personal adult relationship in the privacy of his home with consenting adults has no bearing upon the case. Awe Ye Ping is unbalanced and an accident waiting to happen. It could have been anywhere, with anyone, especially if szchophrenic, at anytime. The dishes tripped him. Not the reaction of a normal mentally healthy person, now is it? Equally, a mentally ill Awe Ye Ping, working in a bank, driving his car, renting his two story apartment, seeing his girlfriend, could have killed a customer who complained about a dirty 100 baht note. It's not about the 'background' it's about the fore ground; the here and now. He's mentally ill.

I don't agree that anyone of adult age can be exploited for entering into a contractual agreement by mutual consent on terms that they agree. Sex for sale being but one example.

I wouldn't agree with your character assassination of the deceased or you character vindication of the killers. Mr. Crisp seems to have provided a welcoming atmosphere, encouraged his guests to stay, make use of the facilties and pay them for their time. You may not like it, but such is the way of the world.

As for evil incarnate perhaps you should examine the workings of your own mind is seeing things the way you do. It's certainly not an intelligent interpretation on the facts; it is biased, biggoted and prejudiced. The homosexuality clearly is something you find offensive and therefore you are homophobic. In such circumstances you should keep your opinions to yourself and not publish them as you hold an unacceptable view. Either that or learn to be more tolerant and less rant.

Finally, where someone has died quite horrifically as in this case, if you can't say something that is at least compassinate then do you really think anyone wants to hear from you? I don't and I'm being quite considerate to you.

Shame on you. You should apologise.

[dighambara]

I will get slammed for being insensitive and cruel.

No you'll get slammed for being an opinionated windbag who thinks that having acquaintances who are homosexual makes you an expert on the homosexual condition. You're just someone with an opinion.

ENDURE seems to be more on track than GERIATRICKID. Helping someone down and out doesn't make one a pervert or a criminal. In fact, such behavior as supposed by Geriatric isn't even illegal here, but murder is... Even with the presumption of some evil doing, there is no balance to this story.

[chaoyang]

if you live by the sword, you die by the sword... he should not have let them, yes more than 1, to live in his house in exchange for sexual favours... RIP

I agree.

Also playing into this is the possibility these boys are not actually gay, but are willing to engage in homosexual activity because they are so desperate. Not too hard to do the math.

[473geo]

OMG, the naivete. It's called gay for pay, and yes many straight guys on the game. I don't know about you, but I have done a lot of things in my life for money where I was definitely faking it. External acting out is not the same thing as internal sexual orientation, not even close, that's basic psychology for you, bone up on it if you like. If every man who had some same sex experiences in life were gay or bi, straights would be the minority.

Anyway, of course the orientation of the victim or perps isn't the issue in the case; the issue is murder.

GK posted - "Doesn't anyone want to know why a kid could be driven to a murder like this, why he had no problem killing someone? Is it more convenient to believe that it was because of some dirty dishes?"

It's called cause and effect........perhaps the issue is how to identify and eradicate the real cause that led the murder......which may have no relevance to the actions of the victim, but may well have been a product of ignorance, and, the head in the sand approach to the effects on human beings of pay for sex activities in Thailand

[khundon]

OMG, the naivete. It's called gay for pay, and yes many straight guys on the game. I don't know about you, but I have done a lot of things in my life for money where I was definitely faking it. External acting out is not the same thing as internal sexual orientation, not even close, that's basic psychology for you, bone up on it if you like. If every man who had some same sex experiences in life were gay or bi, straights would be the minority.

Anyway, of course the orientation of the victim or perps isn't the issue in the case; the issue is murder.

Or perhaps they prefer to hide their true sexuality behind the term "Gay for pay" rather than face the fact that they are either bi or gay. Maybe they enjoy sex with men and use money as the excuse, rather than lose face.

Lets face it, us men can't fake an orgasm like the girls can.

I don't deny that there are many men and women, who, given the right or wrong circumstances (bit too much to drink or drugs etc) have same sex experiences, but if they then go on to do it again when sober, that is not acting, that is enjoying. That is not "straight" as I understand the term. I have no problem with the sexual orientation of anyone, those differences are, for me, what make the World a better place.

External acting! Sex involves, amongst other things, psychological and physical changes within the body and I don't care if you are a World class actor, they can only occur if you are physically and emotionally stimulated. That means you (not you personally) like it.

Any "straight" who says different, are only kidding themselves.

As to the 3 men involved in the murder, they killed the guy for money, pure and simple and deserve what they get. But I very much doubt they were acting when they had sex, paid or not, with men.

We will never know why he invited them to stay with him, I would like to think it was for altruistic reasons, but he did ignore sensible advice from friends and colleagues and paid the price. I think he was the naive one, not I. May he rest in peace.

If nothing else, let it be a warning to others to stay safe. After all this is Thailand and life is cheap here.

[TAWP]

The culture that we brought to this country over the past 60 odd years has created this issue. Not the hilltribes.

What I find really sad is how someone can live here and be so ignorant of the history of the region.

[Jingthing]

As far as the debate on whether male prostitutes serving men can be heterosexually oriented, people are going to believe what they are going to believe. But the scientific evidence supports my contention that it is not only possible, but very common. Also, the idea that you have to be "gay" or "bi" to both have and enjoy gay sex is laughable when you consider what goes on in some prisons. No, I am not saying straight rape victims usually enjoy the sex, but you get the point. Again, total confusion between the external acts and a person's psychological orientation.

[michaeljordan]

Some simple things come to my attention here.

They were living there and killed him.

How on earth could they believe they would get away with such a crime?

So was it a sudden crime of anger with no plan?

Maybe

About Thais in general.

Very violent.

It is common for people to assault one another here.

If everyone who did it were in jail, half or more of the population would be locked up.

Why is it so many foreigners are unaware of the terrible violence here? Just watch--people here will post how it is not true that Thailand is very violent. Of course it will not be a Thai who says it.

Murder here is often not even reported as murder. It is an accident of suicide you know. The Police are so overwhelmed with crime that they do not even look for more than a day when looking for the criminal.

The Land of Smiles?

Yeah--but that smile is often meaningless. It is a way of hiding what is really being thought.

The real strange thing here is murder is committed against strangers or just acquaintances. In the West 90% of the time, the murder is against someone who is well known by the killer. Here, they might kill you after meeting you for a short time.

Beware

I am not here to make all Thais out to be bad people. That is of course completely false. Most Thais are good people.

They too are victims of the terrible crime here. They will warn you if you listen. But like the poor man killed in this case, westerners do not listen.

BUT think--would you bring two or three strangers inside your home to stay if back in your home nation?

NO

What on earth happens to people who come to Thailand that makes them take down their guard and abandon all common sense?

This case?

Robbery

Anger

Drugs

All of the above

But you can be sure there was NO LOVE.

The man did not deserve this and the criminals are cold blooded thugs.

[metisdead]

Off topic nonsense posts have been removed.

[khundon]

As far as the debate on whether male prostitutes serving men can be heterosexually oriented, people are going to believe what they are going to believe. But the scientific evidence supports my contention that it is not only possible, but very common. Also, the idea that you have to be "gay" or "bi" to both have and enjoy gay sex is laughable when you consider what goes on in some prisons. No, I am not saying straight rape victims usually enjoy the sex, but you get the point. Again, total confusion between the external acts and a person's psychological orientation.

Sighting the sexual acts of prisoners is hardly credible and far from the norm don't you think. The majority of those acts are carried out as either forced rape or the victim is coerced into the act from the fear of violence if they refuse. Therefore, these acts between prisoners cannot be classed as normal circumstances. Of course there will be many gays within the prison system, but we are talking about the psychos and mental cases who are more than willing to rape another male, in order to relieve their sexual frustration. They are, after all, living within a closed, all male system, with nothing to lose. One wonders whether they would act the same in a free environment, where there was access to females. I suspect they would, if free, rape just as many women.

That is not the case where most male prostitutes in Thailand are concerned. Nor is it the case when most straight people of either sex have a casual same sex experience. They may well pass the act off as just one of those things and move on, however, I am talking about those who then go on to have many more same sex experiences (paid or not) and still call themselves straight. That to me is laughable. They are not kidding me, nor I think the rest of the World, no matter how you, or they, dress it up.

You have yet to site any evidence to support your contention, that male to male prostitutes can be straight. But as we are going off topic, maybe that is for another thread.

PS. I was never confused.

[Jingthing]

Khundon, I learned what I know about the academic position of professional psychologists about the varied sexual orientation of male prostitutes who service males in a college course (and textbook). I don't have the textbook online text to link to you but my memory is clear. I also recall a report of a study of young male prostitutes which did show that some (by no means all) males who start out as heterosexual through many acts of gay sex where they receive the positive reinforcement of both money and orgasms do change their orientation to gay, but the studies were clear that there was a group of heterosexually identified subjects that were studied.

Also keep in mind, there is a supply and demand market situation here. In most cultures, there are generally many more male clients for male prostitutes than female ones, and again, in many cultures the pay is better for same sex service.

Also, just because you and many hetero men can't imagine performing at all with their own sex (I can relate), people are very varied, and some men have no problem performing with goats (of any sex) so horses for courses, as it were. That doesn't make them goat-sexual either.

I am not going to be your googlebot, but here's a link. Like I said, I know what I know, you believe what you believe, we aren't going to change each other's minds about this.

http://www.reference.com/browse/male+prostitute

Male prostitution

A gigolo , hustler or male prostitute is a male who engages in the sale of their sexual services by prostitution. The gender of a male prostitute's sexual partner or the sexual act that he and the client participates in may not indicate a prostitute’s sexual orientation; a male prostitute may be of any sexual orientation regardless of his client's gender. Compared to female sex workers, male sex workers have been far less studied by researchers, and while studies suggest that there are differences between the ways these two groups look at their work, more research is needed.

[Seismic]

I will get slammed for being insensitive and cruel.

No you'll get slammed for being an opinionated windbag who thinks that having acquaintances who are homosexual makes you an expert on the homosexual condition. You're just someone with an opinion.

I totally agree. What an opinionated, ego inflated windbag.

All the prostitutes (they are known as working girls/boys) have made their choices long before the occasional visitor from overseas comes to spend his money and time with them. Most do it voluntarily, whilst others are encouraged by their parents. It is not seen as bad, as in western society otherwise places like Chiang Mai, Phuket, Pattaya etc would be closed down.

There is one main point here - in all societies MURDER IS BAD. This convicted person was a murderer, I hope he suffers in jail and I hope they catch the other accomplices. Oh and I am not the usual 'hang 'em; bomb 'em' poster you get on this forum.

I would not call him a windbag.

Insults will not bring the discourse to a higher level.

It is clear that the poster is sensitive to the victim. In his eye, the victim is the killer not the deceased.

Obviously the poster has no first hand knowledge of this specific case, only feelings. He surmises that the killer was abused, he even labels him a kid at age 22.

The law is reason free from passion, as Aristotle defined it.

The poster is emotional and is projecting. That is not a reason to use epithets to insult or demean him anymore than dirty dishes and a homosexual liaison are reasons to murder someone.

Mature and sensible people behave rationally, not emotionally or violently.

So what you are saying here is that there are no mature and sensible people in the whole of Thailand......or at least who are born here

[LingLek]

Freedom of choice, like opportunity, is something they teach in Berkeley and other havens of middle class white performative culture, not in the farms of northern Thailand. Ning has no choice.

There are millions of poor people in Thailand doing honest work that refute any such claim.

I'm sure there are many poor people laboring all over Thailand. But I think your implication that those who labor in prostitution are dishonest is harsh and unthinking. Prostitution is an only, or worthwhile, option in many cases. Pays well, remember. You can keep your family hale and hearty, buy some land, and set yourself up for the future if you work hard. You don't have the education or cultural background to know that it is not quite proper. If you're thinking of the of those who just want a good time, or quick bucks, please remember that they too have never learned the value of making slow money or having a bad time. I wish it weren't so, but there really isn't an alternative for most (male or female), because of the pressure not just to survive but to survive well.

[geriatrickid]

Freedom of choice, like opportunity, is something they teach in Berkeley and other havens of middle class white performative culture, not in the farms of northern Thailand. Ning has no choice.

There are millions of poor people in Thailand doing honest work that refute any such claim.

And what of the people that are considered non citizens even though they were born in Thailand, and even though their parents were born in Thailand? They are not able to legally work and when they do, they suffer extortion. That is the case of the Hill tribes people. Go and look at the conditions in respect to this particular tribe. Despite having a long established historical presence that predates the modern borders of Thailand, this group that was originally nomadic is denied an opportunity to "settle" down. Please look at who is providing the health care, the education and the support for "home grown" employment. it is mostly foreigners and foreign aid groups. Thailand does not have a positive record when it comes to integrating this population Poverty and systemic discrimination and oppression is not an excuse for crime, but it explains why there is a breakdown in civil society and why there is crime.

[LingLek]

As far as the debate on whether male prostitutes serving men can be heterosexually oriented, people are going to believe what they are going to believe. But the scientific evidence supports my contention that it is not only possible, but very common. Also, the idea that you have to be "gay" or "bi" to both have and enjoy gay sex is laughable when you consider what goes on in some prisons. No, I am not saying straight rape victims usually enjoy the sex, but you get the point. Again, total confusion between the external acts and a person's psychological orientation.

Sighting the sexual acts of prisoners is hardly credible and far from the norm don't you think. The majority of those acts are carried out as either forced rape or the victim is coerced into the act from the fear of violence if they refuse. Therefore, these acts between prisoners cannot be classed as normal circumstances. Of course there will be many gays within the prison system, but we are talking about the psychos and mental cases who are more than willing to rape another male, in order to relieve their sexual frustration. They are, after all, living within a closed, all male system, with nothing to lose. One wonders whether they would act the same in a free environment, where there was access to females. I suspect they would, if free, rape just as many women.

That is not the case where most male prostitutes in Thailand are concerned. Nor is it the case when most straight people of either sex have a casual same sex experience. They may well pass the act off as just one of those things and move on, however, I am talking about those who then go on to have many more same sex experiences (paid or not) and still call themselves straight. That to me is laughable. They are not kidding me, nor I think the rest of the World, no matter how you, or they, dress it up.

You have yet to site any evidence to support your contention, that male to male prostitutes can be straight. But as we are going off topic, maybe that is for another thread.

PS. I was never confused.

we are talking about the psychos and mental cases who are more than willing to rape another male, in order to relieve their sexual frustration. They are, after all, living within a closed, all male system, with nothing to lose

Partly true, I suspect.. The other bigger part lies in your next sentence: the 'all male system'; all-male environments are usually shaped by power differentials--the connection between power and rape is conventional in the literature.