Is This A Good Time To Retire To Thailand

[Jingthing]

500,000 Euro is about 20,000,000 THB. Lets say you live for 20 years. That's 1,000,000 a year or 83,000 a month.

'

these kind of milkmaid calculations drive me nucking futs! is anybody who has 500k €UR stupid² enough not to invest that money in order to have an income of at least 100,000 Baht a month without touching a single penny of the capital?

It is standard investment advice to older people who have a large nest egg to both invest AND spend down gradually over time. Unless you care about legacy, there is no rational reason to die with a big pot of UNSPENT money.

[gregb]

500,000 Euro is about 20,000,000 THB. Lets say you live for 20 years. That's 1,000,000 a year or 83,000 a month.

'

these kind of milkmaid calculations drive me nucking futs! is anybody who has 500k €UR stupid² enough not to invest that money in order to have an income of at least 100,000 Baht a month without touching a single penny of the capital?

Fair point, but my post did say this was all BEFORE even considering investing/interest etc.

And I am interested in where he could get a 6% return after tax for the next 20 years, with no capital risk and/or currency risk? I want some of that!!

Not to mention with inflation currently set up to hit 10% or more, a 6% return will be a net negative.

Sorry, but the decades when you could reliably count on your investments making a reliable percentage over inflation are in the past. What we are faced with today is severe resource and energy depletion leading to decades of economic decline, where people will need to either spend capital for living expenses, or continue work until they die. For someone who is 31, listening to the advice of an expert who is 61 will almost certainly drive them straight into poverty. It is hard for people to accept the world has changed.

Believing the anachronistic calculations that show you can retire early on a sum as small as 500,000 euro are unwise. There will always be speculators who can gamble in the stock market and win, but for the vast majority of us who are faced with the reality of decades of global economic contraction, the kind of simple calculation that Naam so disparages actually represents an upper bound of what we can realistically hope for. Likely, we won't even get that lucky.

My advice to the OP is to buy gold, learn how to live frugally, and draw down that capital over the remainder of his years. If he can learn to survive on 1 baht of gold per month, that stash will last him 1000 months, or approximately 80 years.

[newbepat]

500,000 Euro is about 20,000,000 THB. Lets say you live for 20 years. That's 1,000,000 a year or 83,000 a month.

'

these kind of milkmaid calculations drive me nucking futs! is anybody who has 500k €UR stupid² enough not to invest that money in order to have an income of at least 100,000 Baht a month without touching a single penny of the capital?

Fair point, but my post did say this was all BEFORE even considering investing/interest etc.

And I am interested in where he could get a 6% return after tax for the next 20 years, with no capital risk and/or currency risk? I want some of that!!

Not to mention with inflation currently set up to hit 10% or more, a 6% return will be a net negative.

Sorry, but the decades when you could reliably count on your investments making a reliable percentage over inflation are in the past. What we are faced with today is severe resource and energy depletion leading to decades of economic decline, where people will need to either spend capital for living expenses, or continue work until they die. For someone who is 31, listening to the advice of an expert who is 61 will almost certainly drive them straight into poverty. It is hard for people to accept the world has changed.

Believing the anachronistic calculations that show you can retire early on a sum as small as 500,000 euro are unwise. There will always be speculators who can gamble in the stock market and win, but for the vast majority of us who are faced with the reality of decades of global economic contraction, the kind of simple calculation that Naam so disparages actually represents an upper bound of what we can realistically hope for. Likely, we won't even get that lucky.

My advice to the OP is to buy gold, learn how to live frugally, and draw down that capital over the remainder of his years. If he can learn to survive on 1 baht of gold per month, that stash will last him 1000 months, or approximately 80 years.

I am really glad someone can see my point of view, and is prepared to explain to you all, much better than i can. we are talking of a pension pot of €500K and the number of years i will live for.

The problem i have with gold is. if i am correct in saying gold is at its hightest right now. i think the only way it can go is down.

Edited February 7, 2011 by newbepat

[Naam]

500,000 Euro is about 20,000,000 THB. Lets say you live for 20 years. That's 1,000,000 a year or 83,000 a month.

'

these kind of milkmaid calculations drive me nucking futs! is anybody who has 500k €UR stupid² enough not to invest that money in order to have an income of at least 100,000 Baht a month without touching a single penny of the capital?

It is standard investment advice to older people who have a large nest egg to both invest AND spend down gradually over time. Unless you care about legacy, there is no rational reason to die with a big pot of UNSPENT money.

having lived nearly 15 years in your country JT i am well aware of this advice. but then, to each his own. my policy was always "never touch the capital!" to which my wife agrees although we don't have 'deserving' heirs.

besides, i don't want to hear about the fate of some elderly Americans who were adviced in the early 90s to take a reverse mortgage with a maturity of 15 or 20 years and who are still alive but having spent the roof above their heads.

[Naam]

500,000 Euro is about 20,000,000 THB. Lets say you live for 20 years. That's 1,000,000 a year or 83,000 a month.

'

these kind of milkmaid calculations drive me nucking futs! is anybody who has 500k €UR stupid² enough not to invest that money in order to have an income of at least 100,000 Baht a month without touching a single penny of the capital?

Fair point, but my post did say this was all BEFORE even considering investing/interest etc.

1. And I am interested in where he could get a 6% return after tax for the next 20 years, with no capital risk and/or currency risk? I want some of that!!

2. Any Australian bank will give 6.5% on a 1 year term deposit.

1. uninformed people have my sympathy and i pity people who refuse to inform themselves but make irrelevant statements.

2. you don't need an account with an Australian Bank to invest in Australian Dollars!

[LaoPo]

500,000 Euro is about 20,000,000 THB. Lets say you live for 20 years. That's 1,000,000 a year or 83,000 a month.

'

these kind of milkmaid calculations drive me nucking futs! is anybody who has 500k €UR stupid² enough not to invest that money in order to have an income of at least 100,000 Baht a month without touching a single penny of the capital?

It is standard investment advice to older people who have a large nest egg to both invest AND spend down gradually over time. Unless you care about legacy, there is no rational reason to die with a big pot of UNSPENT money.

having lived nearly 15 years in your country JT i am well aware of this advice. but then, to each his own. my policy was always "never touch the capital!" to which my wife agrees although we don't have 'deserving' heirs.

besides, i don't want to hear about the fate of some elderly Americans who were adviced in the early 90s to take a reverse mortgage with a maturity of 15 or 20 years and who are still alive but having spent the roof above their heads.

..to which I would like to add to JT's sentence: "It is standard investment advice to older people who have a large nest egg to both invest AND spend down gradually over time." that especially the "invest" part is written as if investments are always profitable....

and that spend down gradually over time isn't possible anymore because the large nest egg disappeared.

LaoPo

[Naam]

Sorry, but the decades when you could reliably count on your investments making a reliable percentage over inflation are in the past. What we are faced with today is severe resource and energy depletion leading to decades of economic decline, where people will need to either spend capital for living expenses, or continue work until they die. For someone who is 31, listening to the advice of an expert who is 61 will almost certainly drive them straight into poverty. It is hard for people to accept the world has changed.

repeating over and over obvious false information does not make it true Greg. as of now it is not rocket science to achieve a fair return much above inflation. your forecast might or might not apply to future decades. but because (unlike others) i am not a prophet i refrain to comment.

"forecasts are quite difficult... especially when they concern the future!"

[Naam]

..to which I would like to add to JT's sentence: "It is standard investment advice to older people who have a large nest egg to both invest AND spend down gradually over time." that especially the "invest" part is written as if investments are always profitable....

and that spend down gradually over time isn't possible anymore because the large nest egg disappeared.

LaoPo

to which i would like to add that the average American has no bloody idea about investing. exceptions like Warren Buffet just prove the rule.

[Naam]

And I am interested in where he could get a 6% return after tax for the next 20 years, with no capital risk and/or currency risk? I want some of that!!

there is no investment without risk! that even applies to cash or gold kept below the pillow. by the way, retirees in Thailand do not pay income tax.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Naam

[tartempion]

I spend 1 million/year in Thailand and live very well, 9 years now, 9 million.

1 million went into two cars (sold the first one 4 years later and bought a second one)

Bought land and build house in the name of God, 2.7 million. Just finished building a Thai kitchen with covered sitting area (50sqm) for 150k hardwood furniture included and expensive tiling, not the 150 baht sqm type

I spend 40k month on food, restaurants, clothing, petrol, take some "holiday" every 3 months for 1 week.

In fact the expensive and risky part of this enterprise is the 2.7 million on the house, over 10 years cost is 22.500THB, I am in year 5 now, took 4 years to decide where I wanted to live, decided on village life, but OUTSIDE the village, consider renting/moving around for some years until you find the right place, good houses to be found for 5k baht/month upwards to 100k+ in Bangkok.

And the knowledge a woman can expel you any day from the house/land you paid for and your right to stay in this country being limited to max 1 year are dumpers on the Land Of Scams Don't invest more than what you can afford to loose over here! Keep your funds over there!

With my style of living 20 million baht not invested would feed me for 20 years.

Edited February 7, 2011 by tartempion

[LaoPo]

..to which I would like to add to JT's sentence: "It is standard investment advice to older people who have a large nest egg to both invest AND spend down gradually over time." that especially the "invest" part is written as if investments are always profitable....

and that spend down gradually over time isn't possible anymore because the large nest egg disappeared.

LaoPo

to which i would like to add that the average American has no bloody idea about investing. exceptions like Warren Buffet just prove the rule.

..I agree, WB is an investment genius

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

When you get your pension, it will be 120.000 baht per month.

€ 200/week = 35,500 Baht/month at today's exchange rate :jap:

..pretty accurate Naam; I came to 36079.29/month Thai Baht but the change is for the waiters.

But, more seriously, to the OP:

In the OP's case I would:

1. make sure the cash stays OUT of Thailand; never bring it there.

IF you can move it out of your country that is and you might want to discretely ask for good advise to people who know their stuff.

Go to a large international accountants company like Price Waterhouse Coopers - KPMG - Deloitte - Ernst & Young and the like since they will know how to handle your situation since they're based in Asia and (most of them in) Thailand as well.

It cost you a bit but they will come up with a good, proper and honest advise and solution for you!

2. Play "poor" if you decide to live in Thailand; don't show off, not even to your present gf (if you have one since I didn't read the whole topic)

3. Don't start building houses; not even a small one; just rent.

Unless you have a very close Farang friend who knows all the in's and outs of building but if you leave it to your gf's "friends" and families...you're done for and finished before you can even breath.

4. Take money from the "wall" of what you need per week/month

Keep cool and use your brains.

Wish you luck

LaoPo

Edited February 8, 2011 by LaoPo

[newbepat]

Term deposits V Investing in Ausralia Dollards are we talking like with like

[pjclark1]

For the guy who said i could get 6.5% in any Australian Bank. sure i can't open a bank account in Australian if i don't live there. tell me if i'm right/wrong? Milkmaid calculations?

I must be a cow or what?

Pat

HSBC international will arrange a bank account for you in australia

Or

1 nights stay in the country will entitle you to open an account in person.

Australian government take 10% of the interest direct in tax.

Edited February 8, 2011 by pjclark1

[LaoPo]

500,000 Euro is about 20,000,000 THB. Lets say you live for 20 years. That's 1,000,000 a year or 83,000 a month.

'

these kind of milkmaid calculations drive me nucking futs! is anybody who has 500k €UR stupid² enough not to invest that money in order to have an income of at least 100,000 Baht a month without touching a single penny of the capital?

Probably; there are many stupid investors I suppose but if one cannot make 5.8%/year (which comes to 100K Baht/month) out of € 500.000, I think he should phone your gardener Naam ...he'll know, I'm sure!!!!

LaoPo

[stander]

Apart from the financial considerations, you need also to take into account the lack of political stability.

I have lived and worked here since 1987 and I have a wife and family here, so I will retire here.

I have also purchased an apartment in Penang, primarily as an investment, but also as a possible bolt hole if things get really bad here.

So my advice to you would be to have a good look around this part of the world, spend some time living in as many different countries as possible and then make your decision.

[Naam]

For the guy who said i could get 6.5% in any Australian Bank. sure i can't open a bank account in Australian if i don't live there. tell me if i'm right/wrong? Milkmaid calculations?

I must be a cow or what?

Pat

HSBC international will arrange a bank account for you in australia

Or

1 nights stay in the country will entitle you to open an account in person.

Australian government take 10% of the interest direct in tax.

GOODNESS GRACIOUS! what part of "no need for an Australian bank account" is it you people don't understand? any Singapore, Hong Kong, London, Paris, Frankfurt, New York, Papua New Guinea bank will let you invest in Australian Dollars (cash or bonds... whatever you please) WITHOUT PAYING ANY FREAKING TAX!

slowly but surely i am convinced that the ignorants who are too lazy to inform themselves and listen to shitty advice by other ignorants deserve their fate.

[newbepat]

For the guy who said i could get 6.5% in any Australian Bank. sure i can't open a bank account in Australian if i don't live there. tell me if i'm right/wrong? Milkmaid calculations?

I must be a cow or what?

Pat

HSBC international will arrange a bank account for you in australia

Or

1 nights stay in the country will entitle you to open an account in person.

Australian government take 10% of the interest direct in tax.

GOODNESS GRACIOUS! what part of "no need for an Australian bank account" is it you people don't understand? any Singapore, Hong Kong, London, Paris, Frankfurt, New York, Papua New Guinea bank will let you invest in Australian Dollars (cash or bonds... whatever you please) WITHOUT PAYING ANY FREAKING TAX!

slowly but surely i am convinced that the ignorants who are too lazy to inform themselves and listen to shitty advice by other ignorants deserve their fate.

Ok Naam, i think we get your point, The last time i checked I was told i had to have an address in Australia to open a deposit account.

The thing is everyone has a different opinion. There is no need to get hot under the collar just because we are ignorant of the facts

But Thanks Anyway.

Pat :jap:

[flying]

The problem i have with gold is. if i am correct in saying gold is at its hightest right now. i think the only way it can go is down.

That is one possibility of course. But the other is gold & silver will go up as well as other commodities.

You have to remember these things are not going up. The value of the currencies they are traded/bought in are going down.

ie: It takes more of the devalued USD/EUR/YEN/GBP etc to purchase per ounce.

As you have mentioned with your own government & its banking problems....You need to ask yourself.....Is it getting better or worse?

If better then yes the currencies will strengthen & the prices will drop. If it is getting worse the prices will of course continue to rise as the currencies buy less & less due to weakness/devaluing/excessive printing of currency

[newbepat]

The problem i have with gold is. if i am correct in saying gold is at its hightest right now. i think the only way it can go is down.

That is one possibility of course. But the other is gold & silver will go up as well as other commodities.

You have to remember these things are not going up. The value of the currencies they are traded/bought in are going down.

ie: It takes more of the devalued USD/EUR/YEN/GBP etc to purchase per ounce.

As you have mentioned with your own government & its banking problems....You need to ask yourself.....Is it getting better or worse?

If better then yes the currencies will strengthen & the prices will drop. If it is getting worse the prices will of course continue to rise as the currencies buy less & less due to weakness/devaluing/excessive printing of currency

I see,I never thought of it that way Thanks, thats very interesting :jap:

[flying]

I see,I never thought of it that way Thanks, thats very interesting :jap:

Your welcome.......

As to your main question of course none can really answer because it depends on the life you live (anywhere) & its costs.

But....Speaking for myself....if I was 63 & had 500k Euro & wanted to retire to Thailand....No question it is doable.....for me.

I have a hunch about your reasons for wanting out of a government that is bleeding you & as such would not give it a second thought.

If Thailand is where you want to be go for it.

At 63 you still have time left for another great adventure/chapter in your life. Just take the usual precautions that many here have already mentioned.

Good Luck !

[Naam]

Ok Naam, i think we get your point, The last time i checked I was told i had to have an address in Australia to open a deposit account.

The thing is everyone has a different opinion.

i'm sure you know the saying that opinions are like àrseholes because everyone got one. the last time you checked with whom? did you check with your bank which -most likely- is not an Australian bank and not located in Australia?

[theoldgit]

This is a very interesting topic, it's just a shame about the spats.

I am actively watching two threads at the moment, this one about the feasibility of retiring to Thailand and "onnut's" thread about the possibilty of returning to his home country, which happens to be the UK, that is a very good thread with many members offering constructive advice to "onnut" and his particular problem, without the need for members to have digs at each other.

I shall continue to watch this thread, which is of immense interest to me, and will try and sort the wheat from the chaff.

[newbepat]

Ok Naam, i think we get your point, The last time i checked I was told i had to have an address in Australia to open a deposit account.

The thing is everyone has a different opinion.

i'm sure you know the saying that opinions are like àrseholes because everyone got one. the last time you checked with whom? did you check with your bank which -most likely- is not an Australian bank and not located in Australia?

I checked online with a few Australia bank websites .

So what your saying is that everyone with an opinion is an arsehol_e right?

Maybe you can be wrong sometime. does that make you an arshole?

I know you are trying to belittle me, and you think i am stupid/lazy.

all i am seeking is some knowledge

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Pat :jap:

[LaoPo]

Ok Naam, i think we get your point, The last time i checked I was told i had to have an address in Australia to open a deposit account.

The thing is everyone has a different opinion.

i'm sure you know the saying that opinions are like àrseholes because everyone got one. the last time you checked with whom? did you check with your bank which -most likely- is not an Australian bank and not located in Australia?

I checked online with a few Australia bank websites .

So what your saying is that everyone with an opinion is an arsehol_e right?

Maybe you can be wrong sometime. does that make you an arshole?

I know you are trying to belittle me, and you think i am stupid/lazy.

all i am seeking is some knowledge

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Pat :jap:

Pat, many of us gave you advise, some good some bad, but I know for a fact that Naam is an expert when it comes to international finance and off shore banking. I think he got irritated about some of the bad advises by some posters about cases they don't know sh_t about.

The point is that YOU ask for advise on an open forum and what happens? all kinds of so called self appointed specialists in international finance and off-shore banking jump on board and all know best. I doubt that very much.

The advise I gave you was to consult an INDEPENDENT SPECIALIST from one of the larger International Accountants Companies in your own country who have offices all over the world and many of them even in Thailand.

Why don't you do that and stop debating and asking for (bad) advise here with people you don't even know?

If you go the wrong way and lose serious money there's only one to be blamed: YOU, since you didn't listen to well meant advise from people like Naam and myself:

go search and ask (and pay for!) for independent advise from international specialists. That sounds arrogant and it probably is but sometimes someone needs to wake up if he's asking for advise about € 500.000 and what and how to do with it.

Suit yourself.

LaoPo

[Xangsamhua]

The only study that I believe is the one where people live longest who retire the earliest. Pick a country that suits YOUR needs. There is no one size fits all.

Sorry Ian, but that 2002 study was refuted in 2005 in the British Medical Journal. To quote:

The long term survival of people who retire early at ages 55 or 60 is no better than that of those who retire at 65, especially for those who retire at 55. On the contrary, mortality improved with increasing age at retirement for people from both high and low socioeconomic groups, defined according to employment grade.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1273451/

There's some hope for the grizzled among us who are still slaving away.

[IanForbes]

The only study that I believe is the one where people live longest who retire the earliest. Pick a country that suits YOUR needs. There is no one size fits all.

Sorry Ian, but that 2002 study was refuted in 2005 in the British Medical Journal. To quote:

The long term survival of people who retire early at ages 55 or 60 is no better than that of those who retire at 65, especially for those who retire at 55. On the contrary, mortality improved with increasing age at retirement for people from both high and low socioeconomic groups, defined according to employment grade.

http://www.ncbi.nlm....les/PMC1273451/

There's some hope for the grizzled among us who are still slaving away.

Thanks for updating me. I stand corrected. All I know is I NEVER had to work. Is it work if you enjoy what you are doing? In any case I was employed at something I enjoyed doing for 40 years. I only retired because they were downsizing and gave me a buyout. And, because I could not add any more to my pension. I read that stress kills more people than we realize. That may or may not be true. Some people seem to thrive on stress. I've got a fixed pension that is enough for me to comfortably live on and still contribute to charities... such as helping beautiful young women who need my money more than me.

Actually, I believe if you want to live a long life then pick parents with the genetics of living well into their eighties.

[newbepat]

Ok Naam, i think we get your point, The last time i checked I was told i had to have an address in Australia to open a deposit account.

The thing is everyone has a different opinion.

i'm sure you know the saying that opinions are like àrseholes because everyone got one. the last time you checked with whom? did you check with your bank which -most likely- is not an Australian bank and not located in Australia?

I checked online with a few Australia bank websites .

So what your saying is that everyone with an opinion is an arsehol_e right?

Maybe you can be wrong sometime. does that make you an arshole?

I know you are trying to belittle me, and you think i am stupid/lazy.

all i am seeking is some knowledge

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"

Pat :jap:

Pat, many of us gave you advise, some good some bad, but I know for a fact that Naam is an expert when it comes to international finance and off shore banking. I think he got irritated about some of the bad advises by some posters about cases they don't know sh_t about.

The point is that YOU ask for advise on an open forum and what happens? all kinds of so called self appointed specialists in international finance and off-shore banking jump on board and all know best. I doubt that very much.

The advise I gave you was to consult an INDEPENDENT SPECIALIST from one of the larger International Accountants Companies in your own country who have offices all over the world and many of them even in Thailand.

Why don't you do that and stop debating and asking for (bad) advise here with people you don't even know?

If you go the wrong way and lose serious money there's only one to be blamed: YOU, since you didn't listen to well meant advise from people like Naam and myself:

go search and ask (and pay for!) for independent advise from international specialists. That sounds arrogant and it probably is but sometimes someone needs to wake up if he's asking for advise about € 500.000 and what and how to do with it.

Suit yourself.

LaoPo

Thanks, Maybe you are right, I appreciate your advice

Pat

Edited February 8, 2011 by newbepat

[gregb]

Sorry, but the decades when you could reliably count on your investments making a reliable percentage over inflation are in the past. What we are faced with today is severe resource and energy depletion leading to decades of economic decline, where people will need to either spend capital for living expenses, or continue work until they die. For someone who is 31, listening to the advice of an expert who is 61 will almost certainly drive them straight into poverty. It is hard for people to accept the world has changed.

repeating over and over obvious false information does not make it true Greg. as of now it is not rocket science to achieve a fair return much above inflation. your forecast might or might not apply to future decades. but because (unlike others) i am not a prophet i refrain to comment.

"forecasts are quite difficult... especially when they concern the future!"

I agree that predictions are difficult. Educated guesses are less so. As someone who claims to have a physics background, you sure don't spend much time paying attention to physical realities.

All I require in order to have a high degree of confidence in what I say is to know that high density energy extraction has peaked, and that extrasomatic energy available for work will necessarily fall in the future. The rest of the economic reality follows directly from there...economic growth equals energy growth, and energy decline equals economic decline. So you are free to believe that high density energy extraction will continue to grow to infinity on this finite planet, but as someone who also has a strong background in physics, I can tell you that your idea is seriously flawed on first principles.

My theories are not likely false, and most certainly not obviously false as you bluster. Neither I nor anyone else can give anyone an exact time frame for collapse, as the system is too complex and the data unavailable. But as a qualitative study my position is based strongly in reality, as opposed to the opposing view based on the economic fantasy world we have been living in for the last century. This wet dream we call economics today has created a cadre of fiscal alchemists who believe that physics doesn't apply to them, and whose entire philosophy is most certainly doomed to failure in the future. In the process it will impoverish those who refuse to admit that such religious dogma about infinite growth is ill advised.

I will be happy to meet with you or your descendants in 50 years Naam and we can decide together how "false" I was. I suspect I won't have to won't have to work to hard too prove my position.

Again OP, be very careful about thinking you can retire on such a small sum. The world of tomorrow will not behave like the world of yesterday. The world of the future is about decline, just as the world of the past was growth. It has happened to every great civilization ever to live on this finite planet. Only a fool would believe it won't happen to us as well.

[LaoPo]

Sorry, but the decades when you could reliably count on your investments making a reliable percentage over inflation are in the past. What we are faced with today is severe resource and energy depletion leading to decades of economic decline, where people will need to either spend capital for living expenses, or continue work until they die.

If someone would have told your great-grand parents that you would be able to write to someone else on the other side of this world in a split second they would have called a doctor immediately to check upon you.

If the same great-grand parents would have overheard you in the living room, telling a friend that you would take a big bird with large wings and that you would fly to a country named Thailand and the journey would take some 10-12 hours they would have called the doctor also.

If they would have heard from you about cars, able to drive 300 Km/hour, that doctor would be called in also; they would have called upon him even faster if you would have told them that you were able to drive in an electric car very soon.

10 years ago this website didn't even exist and more than 1-2 Billionpeople didn;t even have internet.

Meaning: you are underestimating the brains of our geniuses, worldwide, able to create energy from other sources than the present ones.

Decades of economic decline ?

Really?

LaoPo

Edited February 8, 2011 by LaoPo