Robby nz Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I must say 'sorry Mods. for my two previous posts when this is such a serious subject. Sure there are ways road safety can be improved anywhere in the world but I would hazard a guess that there are far more killed and injured in private car, ute, truck accidents in this country than in buses. It does look (and is) so bad when a lot of people are involved in the one crash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunder26 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) Now we have an expert on taxis and their drivers who hasent been in one in years. Yes I use then in BKK also. I used them before and haven't been impressed. Once I was heading to Ramkamhaeng and the taxi driver took me to Nonthaburi, into completly different direction. More than 50 % of times the taxi drivers drove too fast and not adjusting to the traffic speed. Also had several misses, and even worse once I couldn't seat in the taxi as the smell of drunken booze coming from the driver was terrible. Just for fun, try to see how many of them can read maps? Edited February 21, 2011 by Thunder26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbeam1 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yet more needless deaths R.I.P... Now a thourough investigation is needed, driver, bus company and bus. The problem is for that to be possible, an independant team of crash experts will be needed. What will you see on the television tonight, as many bib as possible getting on camera, pointing and picking up pieces of debris. I doubt very much that this is an accident as incompetence. jb1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pawpcorn Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Regarding the Thai use of seatbelts (or lack of), every time I visit my partner's family in Udon Thani, it's the same replay... His family gets into the back seat, and of course, nobody's put on the seatbelt. I ask them all to put the belts on, and I get back a look like I MUST be crazy, then the same old comment... "No Police!" Clear meaning here... Of course, being "in control" here is nice... no seatbelts, car stays stopped. In broken Thai and sign language... I make a little "joke" about it (yet deadly real) that if I crash, they'll fly up from the back seat and kill my partner in the process of killing themselves, so what they are doing is saving HIS life by buckling up, since they clearly don't care about their own, nor understand the horrific reality of what really happens in a vehicle accident. OH! I might add, that EVERY SINGLE TIME we travel to Udon Thani, we see one or more recently wrecked buses, smashed into bridge supports, run into highway barriers, or run down embankments... windows smashed out (by flying bodies), etc... every single time! When I look at oddities here (Thai attitudes on seatbelts, littering, drinking/driving, and helmets) like this, I have to reflect on my education in the states... When I was in high school, as students, we were required to watch a horrific shock video, such as "Signal 30", produced by the Ohio Highway Patrol, in 1959. Many of the students would get sick and vomit when watching this movie, but the end result was that the reality of accidents... with bodies thrown out of vehicles, through the windshield, body parts everywhere... that visual image would be burned into your consciousness, forever. Education is so often the key to so many of these issues. The movie's free, Thai kids love watching movies... so why not!?!? I found it on the first search, on YouTube... (replace the hxxp with http; I don't think we're allowed to post direct links here..?) Part 1 of 4 is at: Part 2: Part 3: hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G844qTtTShA&feature=related Part 4 is so horrific that it requires you to log into YouTube with your YouTube account, then verify that you are over 18... here: This might be a good film to show, as required viewing, prior to granting a Thai driver's license, lol... RIP the poor souls who lost their life in Nan, and throughout Thailand, in the daily carnage... ====================================== PS: I add the following information, for any Thai educators who may be reading this... info as to how they can obtain the complete video, in high quality: hxxp://romanoarchives.altervista.org WARNING: This movie may be disturbing to someone! Signal 30 (1959) Sponsor: Ohio State Highway Patrol (indirectly) Producer: Highway Safety Films, Inc. Part 1 of 4 Legendary "shock" driving safety film featuring numerous scenes of mutilated cars and injured/dead people and a voiceover lacking in compassion. Produced in cooperation with the Ohio State Highway Patrol and shown to millions of young drivers for over 40 years. Signal 30 is just one of several Driver's Education films produced by Highway Safety Films, filmed at actual auto accident scenes and consisting largely of color closeups of mangled accident victims. Other titles in the series included Carrier or Killer, Highways of Agony, Mechanized Death and Wheels of Tragedy. There were also imitators; "Death on the Highway" is probably the most (in)famous. Editing by ROMANO-ARCHIVES. "SUBSCRIBING to this Channel is a MUST for researchers and RARE HISTORICAL FOOTAGE fans!!!" V. Romano A top quality version of this complete film is available. Hi-Res videos from our Collections are available on DVD, CD or directly in your inbox. Clips and movies can also be downloaded from our servers using a PW or uploaded by us to your FTP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZinBKK Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 RIP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swerver Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 So yet again time for baseless criticism of the driver and an appalling reason given by the police. THis was a long week-end there are bound to be a lot of minibuses on the road -Were they in a hurry? Had they encouraged the driver to make up time?Was the vehicle road worthy?Was the surface of the road up yo standard?.. almost certainly not! Was there an effective barrier? - to this last one , one doesn't even have to look at the scene to say NO!! I don't think I've seen a single piece of Armco or proper barrier set up anywhere in Thailand - basically if a vehicle leaves the road the only things to stop it are either concrete or trees - neither of which are of the remotes use to an out of control vehicle No, concrete or trees do not stop Thai drivers. Royal Road 7 has a double concrete barrier with a space of several meters in between and at times I see were a truck or bus has gone through the first barrier and knocked over the second barrier, These barrier block weigh approximately a ton and are cemented to the ground. At times I think I’m back in Oman were Emir Caboose onetime made the remark to the Omanis “everything I have belongs to you” so they take him up on that and you see in the case of road Armco barriers that have been installed by the government the Omanis just unbolt them and take them home for some project they are working on. I see the same here in Thailand when traveling the Hiways. Most recently on the recently opened Royal Road 7 final section that end in Sukhumvit Road Pattaya. Oh well its all booked off under TIT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nawtier Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Only one vehicle involved, of course it was the driver to blame. Really ?? Could not have anything to do with poor maintenance and no breaks for example ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBill Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 No doubt the bus driver was driving too fast like they all do up there. So sad. RIP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asiawatcher Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) "... So yet again time for baseless criticism of the driver ..." Hardly! There isn't a single case in Thailand of road accidents involving buses where the driver has not been the main reason - even brake failures and mechanical problems can be avoided if the drivers know how to down change gears using the motor to slow the bus. Similarly if they weren't running the buses at maximum speed - not a lot would happen - speed kills! Always been the case and will never change. Edited February 21, 2011 by asiawatcher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H20ho Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Traffic statistics up to 2003 with some data up to 2005 http://www.easts.info/on-line/journal_06/3617.pdf Annual Traffic accident report Thailand 2006 http://www.roadsafetythai.org/document/article/article_41.pdf Some Highlights: More accidents on Saturday and Sunday, and roughly twice as many accidents in April. 4 lane roads have highest percentage of accidents, with 2 lane accidents having the highest change of fatality. Highest changes of accidents occur on highways that are straight with the highest change of fatality on accidents at curves. Accidents occur 400% more often on fine days when compared to foggy, cloudy/dusty, rainy and other(?) situations all added together. 2.7 Road Safety Implementation 2006 At present, Ministry of Transportation and Communications (MOTC) has finally lead to the development of a Road Safety Master Plan (RSMP), proposing 9 programs of activities to be implemented over a five year period, a total budget of 9,850 million Baht. These programs are as follows : 1. To establish an organization and set policy. 2. To revise and enforce the Laws. 3. To analyze and do research on causes of accidents. 4. To improve driving licensing and training course for drivers. 5. To put traffic training in schools/ universities . 6. To launch a campaign and public information. 7. To set standard on safety of vehicle. 8. To maintain road 9. To rescue victims from accidents 2006 Accidents occurred less on Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays with only slightly higher than Saturday, Sunday and Monday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gemini81 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) how many deaths before something is finally done, more guard rails, wider roads? this is a crying shame, two mishaps in one day. Edited February 21, 2011 by gemini81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bprinceuk Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 A tragic loss of life, R.I.P and a speedy recovery back to full health for the injured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deeral Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) I really think a lot of people - probably including the police - have jumped the gun in pinning the blame on the driver - basically they are just an inch away from being a lynch mob. Whereas we know that many - not all minibus drivers drive with little apparent concern for their passengers - it is more a display of machismo to them - but we don't know that this was the case. A bit of advice - if you want the driver of your hire vehicle to go more slowly, offer him a tip (100 too 200 baht if he keeps the speed within the limit (90km) for the duration of the trip.this "carrot" method works far better than the "stick". and an afterthought - why is it that so many people consider these drivers to be dangerous yet refuse to drive themselves?Where is the logic in letting a blithering idiot drive you if you are so much better??? Edited February 21, 2011 by Deeral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
byjohnlafond Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Those mountain switch back roads in the North are some of THE MOST TREACHEROUS I've ever seen. And I've navigated some hairy roads around the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truethailand Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 What a f..king waste of life..RIP But when money is placed above all things in this society what do you expect. Apart from the bereaved and friends the farangs care more than most thais. Only ever get on Nakon Chai Air, the rest are death traps. You cannot even shame the company owners into improving their safety record. Typical Thailand, nobody takes responsibility for their actions or their inactions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elliss Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 This is what you get when a country's bus drivers come from the most reckless segment of drivers, unlike in developed countries where they usually come from the most careful segment of drivers, and are carefully chosen for the job by their employers. so true . i recently made an overnight bus journey from chiang mai - udon thani . the driver was going much too fast into the treacherous bends on the mountain roads . it was a frightening experience , which i hope i never have to experience again . death wish tours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Related story: School mourns teachers' tragic deaths Follow this link: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliforniaJohn Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 What do you mean "baseless"? In a one vehicle reck, there is just one to look at. It's baseless to blame minibuses or anyone else that may or may not have been on the road. It might be reasonable to look at the time though. Falling asleep at the wheel might be the cause. either way, it's the driver's fault. RIP So yet again time for baseless criticism of the driver and an appalling reason given by the police. THis was a long week-end there are bound to be a lot of minibuses on the road -Were they in a hurry? Had they encouraged the driver to make up time?Was the vehicle road worthy?Was the surface of the road up yo standard?.. almost certainly not! Was there an effective barrier? - to this last one , one doesn't even have to look at the scene to say NO!! I don't think I've seen a single piece of Armco or proper barrier set up anywhere in Thailand - basically if a vehicle leaves the road the only things to stop it are either concrete or trees - neither of which are of the remotes use to an out of control vehicle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) Unfortunately, I think it says a lot about the caliber/quality of the accident investigation (or lack thereof) that will occur into this tragedy that the police were somehow able to initially conclude that the likely cause was the driver was unfamiliar with the road. The bus driver is dead, so the police clearly aren't able to interview him. The bus is torn up 100 meters down a ravine. How exactly would the police within the first day have been able to make that kind of determination? And rule out any number of other possible factors (just a potential list here) including the driver fell asleep, was drunk, swerved to miss another vehicle or some obstacle, had failed brakes, lost control due to a tire blowout, or any number of other potential causes.... The Sherlockian deduction powers of the BIB never cease to amaze me.. And of course, Nan province police will have only the best experts when it comes to accident investigations. Other info from news reports this morning: One of two drivers on the bus yesterday morning was also killed and the other was injured. The bus crashed into a concrete barrier near the 56km marker in Ban Nam Koh Moo 6. The two bus drivers were from Thai Indochina Trading and Service, from which the service was chartered, One survivor said the bus ran into difficulty when the road grew steeper and more winding. The bus started to travel faster and then begin to sway just before the crash. Another survivor guessed the accident had been caused by brake failure because the vehicle lost control as it was traveling downhill. BTW, what has ever happened with our teenie hi-so van crash driver from BKK? How are the police doing investigating that one? Edited February 22, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moe666 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Was this a hired bus for this group. I have travelled many times between Chiang mai and Mae Hong Song and will say that the bus and express van drivers from the chiang Mai bus station are very professional. They drive this road every day and I have found their driving very safe and professional. I would bet this was a chartered bus from a dodgy company and less than trained driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginjag Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Unfortunately, I think it says a lot about the caliber/quality of the accident investigation (or lack thereof) that will occur into this tragedy that the police were somehow able to initially conclude that the likely cause was the driver was unfamiliar with the road. The bus driver is dead, so the police clearly aren't able to interview him. The bus is torn up 100 meters down a ravine. How exactly would the police within the first day have been able to make that kind of determination? And rule out any number of other possible factors (just a potential list here) including the driver fell asleep, was drunk, swerved to miss another vehicle or some obstacle, had failed brakes, lost control due to a tire blowout, or any number of other potential causes.... The Sherlockian deduction powers of the BIB never cease to amaze me.. And of course, Nan province police will have only the best experts when it comes to accident investigations. Other info from news reports this morning: One of two drivers on the bus yesterday morning was also killed and the other was injured. The bus crashed into a concrete barrier near the 56km marker in Ban Nam Koh Moo 6. The two bus drivers were from Thai Indochina Trading and Service, from which the service was chartered, One survivor said the bus ran into difficulty when the road grew steeper and more winding. The bus started to travel faster and then begin to sway just before the crash. Another survivor guessed the accident had been caused by brake failure because the vehicle lost control as it was traveling downhill. BTW, what has ever happened with our teenie hi-so van crash driver from BKK? How are the police doing investigating that one? With you on this one...................Un familiar with the road !!!!..even if he was -was that the reason for the crash. NO way, if its a awkward road/hazard/challenging..........the driver drives according to conditions..............If the police were correct-its no excuse. More time than not it will be driver error. Another point. If local business or the like(pro's and educated) order these buses, is there a question mark in there selection of company ??????? OR do some stupidly go for the low priced ones ???? This also could apply to the other thread, with the Siam bank staff/in Petchaburi province. The world has its motor /other accidents as we call them--but I call them INCIDENTS until they have been classed as an accident, or a crash until the same is revealed, but here the average incident must rank high in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cup-O-coffee Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Hundreds of vehicles drive this route daily, perhaps even hourly. Every day, all the ingredients are out there on the roads for this to happen again and again. Natural selection at its peak! Everyone and every thing involved is at fault; not just the driver. Who takes the fall is the shame of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sawadeeken Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 NOT ONLY IN THAILAND......... READ THIS FROM CALIFORNIA, USA Driver dies, 10 seriously hurt as bus careens down a mountainside near Lake Arrowhead The bus, carrying more than 20 teens and their chaperones home from a weekend church retreat, came around a sharp curve and hit an SUV head-on. Rescuers had to cut the bus open to extract the injured. Photos: Bus crashes in mountains near Crestline Bus crash Map: School bus crash By Phil Willon, Victoria Kim and Joel Rubin, Los Angeles Times A bus carrying teenagers and their chaperones home from a weekend religious retreat collided with another vehicle on a treacherous mountain road and careened down a steep, snow-covered embankment Monday in an accident that killed one and left at least 10 others seriously injured. The bus, belonging to a Korean church in Pasadena, was winding its way down the sharp curves of the two-lane California 189 outside of Twin Peaks in the Lake Arrowhead region shortly before noon, fire and police officials said. As it rounded a nearly hairpin turn, the bus struck an SUV traveling in other direction, according to California Highway Patrol Officer Mario Lopez. The bus sheared through a utility pole but remained upright as it plunged about 25 feet into a small grove of cedars and white firs. It slammed into a large tree, Lopez and others said, coming to rest a few feet from a snow-fed stream. The impact crumpled much of the cab. The driver of the bus, identified by the San Bernardino County coroner as 61-year-old Won Seok Chae of Los Angeles, was killed in the crash. John Cho, a deacon at the Light of Love Mission Church, described Chae as a former professional tour bus driver who volunteered to drive the church's bus on weekend excursions. It was not known how long it had been since Chae drove professionally or if he had the required license. The coroner's office released a statement late Monday saying that Chae had lost control of the bus as it rounded the curve, crossed into the on-coming lane and struck the other vehicle. Chae was pronounced dead at the scene. Twenty-two people — most of them teenagers — were aboard the bus, which was not equipped with seat belts. Dozens of firefighters, police and paramedics quickly swarmed the scene. Rescuers had to use special metal-cutting tools to remove seats from the bus in order to extract some of the passengers. A man who said he was driving past the crash told KNX-AM (1070), "I hear kids screaming, there's this bus down. Oh, God, it was terrible." The man said he helped rescue two girls, one with a broken leg. He described the other girl as "dazed and confused." "A lot of them were crying, but this little girl, she's saying, 'I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.' She's trying to apologize," he told the radio station. A triage area was set up on the road where medical personnel assessed injuries and dispatched the injured to a fleet of waiting ambulances. Within about 90 minutes all 23 of the survivors had been taken to hospitals, with two of the most seriously injured flown by helicopter. The ages of the injured were not known. The accident snarled traffic in the region as authorities closed a section of California 189 for a few hours. At Arrowhead Regional Medical Center, where eight of the passengers were admitted, two people had been rushed into surgery, said nursing supervisor Joy Flint. In all, 10 people were listed in critical condition, according to Lopez. News of the crash sent panicked parents rushing to the small, maroon-shingled church on East Colorado Boulevard in search of information about their children. Members of one family arrived and then quickly departed for Loma Linda University Medical Center, where their son was being treated for minor injuries. "My child was hurt," said the mother of another teen as she got into an SUV with her husband, daughter and a church official. The church has about 1,000 Korean American and Korean immigrant congregants and has been operating for about 18 years, Cho said. "We're hoping none [of the injuries] are life-threatening. We're hoping they all pull through," Cho said. "The church is in shock. Faith is what's keeping us together." A prayer service was planned for Monday night. By Monday evening, some of the victims had been released from Arrowhead hospital. One 18-year-old left the medical center with bad bruises and cuts on his face. [email protected] [email protected] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agord Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 "They are also quite narrow and very, very dangerous especially if the weather's bad, or it's foggy." There are NO dangerous roads in the world- not one. Its all down to : lack of driver skill, lack of common sense, lack of experience, lack of professional training, lack of pride in driving well, lack of fast good reactions, lack of correct response to a threatening situation. I would say 99% of all Thai drivers fall into the category of one or all the above. Note: I am an ex-rally champion and when I went off into the scenery on a forest track on several occasions, I nor anyone else would blame the road or conditions, one would say I was trying too hard, I was not concentrating enough, or just plain old... I am not good enough. Why don't people recognize the fact its always the drivers fault no matter what the situation. I stand steadfast on my opinion and challenge anyone to point out any occasion where it was not the drives fault. I keep reading this here and on other threads. If "99% of all Thai drivers" are so bad, then I assume that despite you being a "rally champion", you have not figured out that there are different rules of the road in Asia than in your western country. The vast majority of Thai drivers are predictable. Western drivers, when presented with a situation they are unfamiliar with here in Asia, sometimes do weird things. In this case, it's hard not to blame the driver, but I'd like to hear the rest of the facts, especially since I've been on that road. And if you want another case where it's not the driver's fault: Bus driver is driving safely. Driver of oncoming vehicle falls asleep and turns into bus's path. Bus driver's first reaction is to swerve to avoid hitting oncoming vehicle with disastrous results. Or should the bus driver have plowed right through the oncoming vehicle. RIP. Hard to say how any of us would react in that situation but in hind sight yes plow through the vehicle and kill 1 or 2 instead of going down a 100 m revine and killing/ inuring 30+. Not really that hard of choice when you think about it but understandable the first reaction to avoid the oncoming car if that is indeed what happened? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbrewer Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 What a tragic waste of life ! Oh yes, RIP ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onnut Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 And the second report about a horrific traffic accident involving a minivan/bus in one single day! All you can do is only shake your head in resignation, because nothing will ever change in this country. Road safety and driving instruction are foreign concepts. Do a little test with your taxi driver: As he whizzes you to your destination at breakneck speed, ask him about individual traffic signs and what they mean. You'll be lucky if he gets 1 out of 10 right. Traffic signs are just there to decorate roadsides and serve no tangible purpose. Most of taxi drivers are drunks, who have no basic education, who cannot read the map, or even worse the road signs. Also they think they are very cool by driving fast, pushing the cars around. I haven't taken a taxi for years and not looking forward to taking one. Now we have an expert on taxis and their drivers who hasent been in one in years. Yes I use then in BKK also. I agree! Most taxi drivers are drunk. I take a taxi every night around 2 am. I've been hit in my car by a drunk taxi driver as well. They are useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KJH Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Hundreds of vehicles drive this route daily, perhaps even hourly. Actually very few vehicles use this route... Theres only 1 (sometimes 2 public buses a day) from Nan to Chiang Rai that go this way. Most people who travel from Nan to Chiang Rai tend to go via Chiang Muan or Rong Kwang, both wider, less winding and generally safer routes. Maybe things are changing nowadays (as a lot of people are promoting Nan as a tourist destination) but at the time I went on the road, between Songkwae and Sakeorn I saw maybe 10 pick ups, and the one daily bus. One reason a lot of locals avoid it (and the reason I used to love biking on it so much...) is that its known to be dangerous (its a mountain road which in places is very steep, and winding and where bad and quickly changing weather (torrential rain, fog, and occasionally landslides etc...) can make already dangerous conditions treacherous.... Every day, all the ingredients are out there on the roads for this to happen again and again. True... The sad thing is that, with the police blaming the driver, there probably wont be a proper investitaion (and emphasis on improving road safety / accident prevention etc...) that in Thailand, is badly needed. Natural selection at its peak! Everyone and every thing involved is at fault; not just the driver. Who takes the fall is the shame of it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeoCooper Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 that sounds like a tragedy to me i am gob smacked that such a thing can happen my most sincere sympathies to all families and loved ones affected Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oberkommando Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 NOT ONLY IN THAILAND......... READ THIS FROM CALIFORNIA, USA Wow, do accidents really happen elsewhere in the World? I though it was only Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ginjag Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 NOT ONLY IN THAILAND......... READ THIS FROM CALIFORNIA, USA Wow, do accidents really happen elsewhere in the World? I though it was only Thailand. Oh it's news to me, Better I start looking if my England has any traffic probs. u.s.a. have road accidents as well. ?? Hasn't usa 500 mill persons approx Thailand has 50 mill--but what am I talking about I,m getting into stats, oh my god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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