Berserk Elephant Kills Swiss Tourist, Injures Three In Phang Nga

[malee81]

Show me a reasonable solution to the issue of care and welfare to all the elephants living in Thailand and I will listen. But don't give me any clap about elephants being special because they are big, and don't come down from your foreign ivory tower to pass judgement on Thai mahouts and their elephants giving rides so as to survive.

Without generalising, I know of several mahouts, who make a very good living from elephants, so do not assume it provides a meager salary. Do you also know, that owning a baby elephant provides a much higher income, because tourists find them cute, and thus they receive more attention. Do you know where many of these baby elephant come from? No, they are not born to captive mothers, as the authorities would have you believe - they are more often than not, poached from the wild.

You are right in that there is no place for all the currently domesticated elephants in Thailand to be housed, but is there really a need to not only poach, but actively captive breed more elephants, simply for our entertainment? Baby elephants are mostly used for elephant painting, for which they are even more brutally tortured than in their initial pha-jaan ceremony. I worked with a baby who returned to it's mahout to be used in elephant painting, and when I saw it months later, I could barely recognise it. Aside from being covered in scars from numerous beatings, her playful spirit had been completely broken.

Did you also know that elephants in captivity have been known to try and commit suicide, and captive mothers have also been known to deliberately trample their new born baby so that it will not have to endure the same fate that she has.

I do not have the solution for what to do with all the elephants, however, I do know there are other solutions than beating them into submission. There are many places which still use elephants for riding, but they still love and care for the elephants, treat them with respect, only ride them bareback (so as not to cause saddle sores), and only use them for a maximum of 2 hours a day. Many other elephant camps not only systematically abuse and starve their elephants, they also work them day and night, using amphetamines to keep them awake.

And, no, I don't eat meat.

[kirk0233]

Huge animals exploited and abused with sharp hooks- no good can come of it. How utterly horrid for that woman, trampled to death. RIP

Please people, do not patronize these awful animal attractions

That is the most ridiculous statement I think I have ever seen on this forum.

Large beasts of burden have been working side by side with man for thousands of years. Horses, water buffalo, elephants, dogs. Humans would be nothing without all of these animals, and at some time or another every one of these animals has snapped and attacked it's trainer. Just like every once in a while you get some office worker who goes off his rocker and shoots up his office.

There are literally thousands, maybe even tens of thousands of elephant rides taken in Thailand every day, and to see one incident every couple of years is not a sign of "poor abused animals". I have been many times, and would not hesitate to go again. Elephants are highly intelligent animals, with complex social interactions that are only barely understood by even the most experienced trainers. If you ACTUALLY READ the article, you would have seen that two male elephants got into a fight, it had nothing to do with the trainers, or the people riding, they were unfortunate victims.

That said there still may be an element of neglect because the elephants were male. It is well known that male elephants can become violent with little warning, and it is generally considered inappropriate to use them for this type of service after a certain age specifically because of incidents like this.

To try and exploit this tragedy by touting some nonsense "humans are the devil exploiting the world" agenda is in the poorest taste.

Do you think the office worker you spoke of would be more likely to "go off his rocker" as you diagnosed, if he was consistently abused with a sharp hook and went through a weaning ritual in which he was constantly beaten, stuck with nails, and had his feet tied for days without food or water until submission and/or exhaustion was achieved. How do you know the elephants did not come from a training background that included this ritual? If YOU READ the article you would also have read that the animals were bloody from being stabbed with the hook from the handlers. Why do they need a sharp hook to stab the animals if there was no abuse? Do you think the stabbing by the handlers aggrevated the situation or calmed the elephants down? Would you be calmer after being stabbed? Does it not make sense that abuse is more likely to lead to aggressive behavior (go off your rocker as you stated). View the video on phajaan and tell me that this is not abuse. Look at the links showing tiger abuse at Tiger Temple and tell me this not abuse. Look at links to SCAD, Soi Cats and Dogs, in Bangkok and read the tales of dogs and cats in thailand that have been abused for just the enjoyment of cruelty, such as a dog that had to have its leg amputated because someone put a rubber band around its leg so tight the leg lost all circulation of blood. Behind many Siam smiles there is a cruelty and lack of responsiblity that we, as westerners, cannot understand. It is not Buddhist to harm animals but it happens often in Thailand. Thai people believe in animism as much or more than Buddhism. Unfortunately, many do not care if they are cruel to animals bacause an offering of soy milk or other small treat to a spirit house will ease their mind.

[61guitarman61]

And you are cherry picking. Dogs, horse, hogs, cows, all kill people without being "beaten." The girl who I watched being loaded up in an ambulance was kicked while walking in back of a tethered horse. I grew up in Missouri, and I know of at least two farmers who were killed while slopping their hogs. Bulls have gone berserk while merely being led and killed people.

In Thailand, like it or not, there are thousands of unemployed elephants. Elephants are long lived, and what with the lumber industry being cut way back, the animals and their mahouts have no way to work. Some beg in the streets. Others give tourists rides. I would rather have them in a junlge setting giving rides than walking around Bangkok.

And there are too many for the few sanctuaries. They can't all be released into the wild, either. Like it or not, unless you wanted to euthanize them all, something has to be done to care for them. And for that to happen, money has to be made.

A couple of posters who know about elephants have written about must, and if that was the case, this was very wrong and the operators should be held doubly accountable. But specific abuse should not throw our what I see as a basically reasonable solution to the numbers of domesticated elephants which exist in Thailand.

Proximity to calculated or potential risk is truly at your own risk of course. Bulls and hogs have notoriously bad temperaments and care should be excercized when in an unptrotected environment with them. The girl you cited should obviously have had better instruction on horse behavior before being allowed to walk about in the danger zone. I've been around dogs my entire life and never once had a close call with a berzerk dog. To place blame for an animal's behavior on an animal that is not in their natural environment is rediculous. Pavlov proved this. Behavior is the result of human influence and therefore blame for badly behaving animals, in GENERAL, falls to the humans involved with that particular animal. And when outright physical and psychological abuse is present on a daily basis, it can be predicted and expected that, one day, the animal will reach a breaking point and snap. Rationalize man's superiority and therefore his right to dispense life treatment of these animals all you want, but we really have no right to determine what is best for another species, any more than we have the right to determine what is best for another human being's existence. If humans are cuasing problems with another creature's existence we have the responsibility to try to stop that activity, but we have not right to be lord and master of another creature. Makes the human feel powerful and "superior" while in this perceived "control" - that is until that sucker decides that today is the day he wants to go left instead of right or just gets fed up with having a perpetual headache from the "training hook" and decides to go for a little run, with or without permission from his "master". Then the humans realize how tiny and insignificant they really are.

No one, that I can see, is "blaming" the animals. (BOS2BKK, on the other hand, would "applaud" a dog who attacked a human, so how is that really different than "blaming" an animal?)

Like it or not, humans are the dominant species on earth. Along with only a few animals, elephants being one of them, we alone have the ability to change the environment, although we do it to a greater extent. And as people are not going to quit having children, not going to do a lemming run off a cliff ( a myth, by the way) when our population gets too high, other animals have to co-exist with us. A lion who preys on cattle in Kenya will be hunted down and killed. A bear who kills a camper in a US park will be hunted down and killed. Rats which infest granaries will be exterminated. Insects which feed on our rice will be poisoned. This is a fact of life on earth, and all the ideological crying and breast beating ain't going to change that.

Lions kill leopards and cheetahs to ensure less competition for food. Males also kill the cubs of other males. Chimpanzees hunt down other monkeys and kill other chimps. Female black widow spiders kill males after mating. "Blame?" "Wrong?" Not at all. This is nature. And humans are part of nature, too.

The cooperation between humans and dogs has benefited both creatures. Humans and horse, too. But some say, "Oh, they are domesticated!" But were they any more domesticated when the first dogs begged for scraps outside of Cro-magnon's fires than elephants are today?

Show me a reasonable solution to the issue of care and welfare to all the elephants living in Thailand and I will listen. But don't give me any clap about elephants being special because they are big, and don't come down from your foreign ivory tower to pass judgement on Thai mahouts and their elephants giving rides so as to survive.

And for those who insist on anthropomorphizing elephants and knowing their druthers, I would much rather be an elephant giving tourist rides than being a pig in packed in the back of a pickup going to slaughter.

Your logic would likely allow for slavery of your own species then, would it not? Using others for your benefit? If you are dominant enough to subdue another and make them do your bidding? And giving rides sounds so benign. Look back a few pages at the video of how these subordinates are treated, then come back with your retort. Of course the slaves were whipped to bring them into line too, weren't they? I see little difference. Abuse is abuse.

As for your 25 cent word of the day, why are they only given 2 choices? How about choice 3? Living a normal elephant life in the jungles of their natural habitat? Would they survive in the current climate of poaching and flaunting of protective laws? Probably not. But that is due to people like you who have accepted the way things are rather than striving for better. Your life is probably at least 75% over so who gives a crap anyway, right?

[james24]

elephants were a traditional mode of transport in thailand for thousands years, they are not exactly domesticated, but trained to obey commands.

accidents do happen, like they do happen with horses, camels, buffalo and other animals used for travel.

sad story, but it's an exceptional, taking into account hundreds of thousands tourists taking trips every year and enjoying their experience. I don't think, that this accident would discourage many holidaymakers

The way they train them, just like in circus' is horrific. It really is no wonder so many of these wild animals snap.

Regarding taking photos with tigers that is just plain stupid and wouldnt be possible in enclosures like that unless they were doped up.

[TacoBoy]

The only way any wild animal is so called "trained", is by losing it's spirit, submitting inferiority and being afraid of humans.

Locals and Tourists should learn and know that tricks and other un natural behavior exhibited at animal parks, adventure safari's etc should not be endorsed or condoned.

Better to let these animals live without interference and exploytation.

[asiawatcher]

Amazes me that Siam Safari is still in business. Let´s not forget their little trip down from Big Bhudda in their old Land Rover, killing an Aussie tourist last year.

That it is why it is "inconvenient' for management to comment at this time. But why hit the poor mahouts with police charges? Can't say it was their fault - was it? There are enough witnesses who saw it all go down.

Anyway - I wonder TAT has not commented...

[luckizuchinni]

... Like I said, obvious.

No, it is not obvious. If a fly is not "sacred," why is an elephant. Where do you draw the line?

I know horses very well, elephants less well. But i have seen true "friendship," if I can use the phrase, between humans and elephants. Elephants using their trunks to caress people as they do other elephants. Elephants showing strong preference for one person over another. Horses don't show nearly the same amount of what we would call "friendship." And you infer that a horse is not forced to carry a person? Have you ever actually broken a horse? The word is not "broken" for nothing.

And why is it OK for a horse to have a "career" carrying people, but not an elephant?

And I have seen elephants having "fun." Have you ever seen the goofy elephant football? Some elephants exhibit all the same signs of excitement when getting ready to play, and then they play without regards to their mahouts commands.

And you write "Although life is not idyllic, the majority of farmers are not beating the heads of their livestock on a daily basis. They are well fed. They are not free but not very far from what their everyday life would be like - eat, wallow, sleep.." Are you kidding me? Have you been to a farm before? Have you seen how veal is raised? Chickens? Egg farms, for goodness sake? The corporate food industry would shock most people who eat meat. There is nothing "natural" about how these animals are produced. I would suggest that you do a little research on modern farming before you make such blanket and patently incorrect statements.

In a perfect world, no animal would be abused, including humans. We would all be vegetarian, and elephants and the like would live undisturbed in the jungles and savannahs. But this is not a perfect world, and once again, unless you can come up with a solution for the thousands of elephants which are here today in Thailand, I would suggest that you get off of your cultural high horse and try to understand the issue instead of blanket damning the situation.

I think your heart is in the right place. Heck, I am a big-time animal lover myself, and while I am a hypocrite in that I eat meat, the only animal I will kill is a mosquito. Nothing else. I give to animal-based charities. But having your heart in the right place should not make you ignore the practical and actual aspects of life.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Maestro
Reduced quoted text.

[luckizuchinni]

Your logic would likely allow for slavery of your own species then, would it not? Using others for your benefit? If you are dominant enough to subdue another and make them do your bidding? And giving rides sounds so benign. Look back a few pages at the video of how these subordinates are treated, then come back with your retort. Of course the slaves were whipped to bring them into line too, weren't they? I see little difference. Abuse is abuse.

Now you are really stretching it for the sake of an argument.

We have alternatives to slavery. We don't have alternatives to the numbers of elephants, specifically, which are in Thailand. I have asked you to suggest some, but I haven't heard anything.

You think that raising farm animals for eating them is OK. So by your logic accusing me, then I could assume that you think raising people for food is OK, too?

Animal abuse is wrong. I don't deny that. And if elephants were abused to break them when they were young, that is a sad commentary. But that leaves us with the situation here that we have thousands of elephants in Thailand who are suited for giving rides, in this case, and without abuse. And you are advocating denying them and their mahouts from making a living and living out their lifespans. Cultural superiority is the only explanation, as far as I can see.

From a strictly biological standpoint, the only solutions would be to limit the population or to provide park-like living conditions. Limiting the population means culling them or limiting births, and limiting births would take a long time to have an effect. Large park-like conditions as in the few places up north or in animal parks (not zoos), but frankly, where is the money going to come from to do that? And even that is "unnatural" as elephants, in this case, are wandering animals.

Since I don't want to cull elephants until we have a small enough number which can be sustained in the few protected areas, and I don't want them wandering the streets begging for bananas, servicing the tourist trade is the best alternative I can see. Perhaps the running of this trade can be better, with more oversight. I would not object to that.

Once again, give me a better option.

Edited February 24, 2011 by luckizuchinni

[luckizuchinni]

As for your 25 cent word of the day, why are they only given 2 choices? How about choice 3? Living a normal elephant life in the jungles of their natural habitat? Would they survive in the current climate of poaching and flaunting of protective laws? Probably not. But that is due to people like you who have accepted the way things are rather than striving for better. Your life is probably at least 75% over so who gives a crap anyway, right?

I don't want to get in trouble for violating rules here about flaming and such, so I will try to be objective. Who are you to tell me that I don't give a crap, that I don't want better. you don't know who I am or what I feel.

To me, you sound like the do-gooders who want to feel good about an issue but hurt the situation. Like the guys who broke into the animal labs to release all the animal, which then were eaten by dogs or hit by cars. Or the ones who released all the minks only to have them all attack each other and get eaten by the swarming predators. Or how about the group which released all the egglayers in a plant, some 20,000 of them, to have all of them dead within a few days. But they "died free," right?

There are about 16,000 non-wild elephants in Thailand. If you just release them into the "jungle," as some here have advocated, then chaos will result. That many cannot be supported on protected land. THey will wander where they destroy crops, where they will be hit by cars and trucks. They will not be able to get enough food. This is not a practical solution.

You infer that you are "striving for better." So tell me, what is better? Give me an option.

There is a right way and a wrong way to do things.

(And as for "25 cent" words, unless you are not a native speaker, if there was any problem with what I wrote, then I would think that the problem is with your vocabulary, not my high school level writing.)

Edited February 24, 2011 by luckizuchinni

[webfact]

Swiss tourist killed by elephant in Thailand

BANGKOK, February 24, 2011 (AFP) - An elderly Swiss woman was trampled to death and four other tourists were injured when elephants they were riding fought with each other in Thailand, police said Thursday.

The 63-year-old woman was thrown onto the ground and fatally injured during an elephant trek with friends in the south of the country on Tuesday.

"It happened because the elephants quarrelled with each other. One lifted its feet so the tourists fell on the ground and it stamped on her," said Lieutenant Colonel Apidej Chuaykuar, the police officer in charge of the case.

He said a total of five tourists, who were staying in the nearby resort of Phuket, were riding two male elephants when the creatures became aggressive.

The woman was pronounced dead at a hospital in Surat Thani province that evening.

She was travelling with two other Swiss nationals who were injured, according to an official source, who said some members of the group were forced to jump from one of the animals when it began running through the jungle.

Two more tourists, whose nationalities were not immediately clear, were also believed to have been injured.

The Swiss embassy in Bangkok confirmed it was aware of the situation and was providing assistance to the victims and their families.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-02-24

[dighambara]

elephants were a traditional mode of transport in thailand for thousands years, they are not exactly domesticated, but trained to obey commands.

accidents do happen, like they do happen with horses, camels, buffalo and other animals used for travel.

sad story, but it's an exceptional, taking into account hundreds of thousands tourists taking trips every year and enjoying their experience. I don't think, that this accident would discourage many holidaymakers

Elephants are quite intelligent, can remember better than most animals and do not take abuse well. Add a period of 'Must' and no good can come of it. Out of their natural environment, they are often worked against their nature - confused, they lash out at the nearest targets...

[luckizuchinni]

Without generalising, I know of several mahouts, who make a very good living from elephants...

I don't disagree with what you have written (well, I don't know if we can assign motive to a mother trampling her baby, but with most of it, sure). And I hope that when I do not join the hordes damning elephant rides, no one thinks I am advocating abusing them.

And if you do not eat meat, then no one can accuse you of being a hypocrite, and my hat's off to your convictions..

Edited February 24, 2011 by Maestro
Reduced quoted text.

[Wellington]

I saw somewhere today that Siam Safari had generously sent a bowl of fruit to the injured in Bangkok Hospital.

Now there's an amazing gesture wouldn't you say!

Edited February 24, 2011 by Maestro
Deleted unrelated multiple quotes.

[koto]

The only way any wild animal is so called "trained", is by losing it's spirit, submitting inferiority and being afraid of humans.

Locals and Tourists should learn and know that tricks and other un natural behavior exhibited at animal parks, adventure safari's etc should not be endorsed or condoned.

Better to let these animals live without interference and exploytation.

Aloha

Living 2 blocks from the San Francisco Zoo back in the 40"s and 50's, when people were allowed to feed the animals, before they started feeding them drugs, hot peppers wrapped in gum and other dangerous things, the local grocery stores would give me their unsold older fruit and vegetables and I would feed most of the animals, also getting to know many of them, and at that time I realized that putting an animal in a cage is in many cases more of a living hell then putting them down, some adjusted if their space was open, fenced and with others, similar to their natural settings, some seemed to weather it, most didn't, way to many in small cages, having their spirit and zest to live taken away, being teased, things thrown at them, being punished for the rest of their lives.

Sometime take an hour or 2 and go to Tony's shelter in Sattahip and see the suffering, of a thousand dogs, no Vet, very sad conditions, unless it has changed in the past 6 months.

Take a "good" look at the animals at Nong Nooch Village, if they took as good of care of the animals as they do their gardens it would be a wonderful place to visit, I had taken children there 3 times back in 2007, some of the children cried for the way these innocent animals were housed, chained and treated, I quit taking children there, I also wrote to the papers about it and received a threat, for maybe hurting their business, I was hoping that they changed the way they cared for the animals by telling the public and maybe they have.

Most humans have no idea or give a second thought of what the caged or chained living thinking loving animal has to go through, so they can look at it or watch it do ridiculous tricks, most people are to unattached to the feelings of others, human or animals, they are to wrapped up in me, me, me.

I am very sorry for what happened to these people and like other post, one is more likely to be hit by lighting then killed by a shark, elephant, tiger or dog, being killed by another human is another story.

What humans have done to Mother Earth and all living things is something we should all take a long look at before we get to involved with texting, music or other self pleasures, giving a minute or 3 to the Voiceless, Children, Wildlife And Waterways for starters.

We should all get involved in leaving only smiles, examples and footprints behind, even if it's to late, it helps one to sleep better.

Giving is so much more rewarding then receiving

[malee81]

What humans have done to Mother Earth and all living things is something we should all take a long look at before we get to involved with texting, music or other self pleasures, giving a minute or 3 to the Voiceless, Children, Wildlife And Waterways for starters.

We should all get involved in leaving only smiles, examples and footprints behind, even if it's to late, it helps one to sleep better.

Giving is so much more rewarding then receiving

I agree, but unfortunately, greed has gotten the better of most people. Material possessions and money are many people's priorities over preservation of the earth and it's creatures (other human beings included). I know I've been guilty of wanting more money and more shiny things I really don't need in the past. It's difficult when so much advertising is thrust in our face. But yes, if everyone just took 5 minutes to reconsider, perhaps things can change before it's too late.

[luckizuchinni]

...But yes, if everyone just took 5 minutes to reconsider, perhaps things can change before it's too late.]

I sincerely doubt it.

I am more green than most people i know. I give to green charities. I have volunteered to work on bringing back wetlands. I have volunteered to work on animal censuses. But I fly to and from Thailand (with that huge carbon footprint.) I have a house in the US which is too big for me. I have a big pick-up truck back there from when I had horses. I eat beef (which takes up a huge amount of resources per calorie).

I know just one flight to Thailand kills any good I did that year slogging through the wetlands muck. But I want to go, so i do it. My point is that if I, who frankly has a better idea of the bad things I do to the environment, but still do them, then how will others who are not as educated, who aren't as green bent as my personality is. how will they take steps to be a better world citizen? I know better, but I still do bad things.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Maestro
Reduced quoted text.

[malee81]

I sincerely doubt it...

Fair point, I wasn't really being literal. But, to use one of my favourite quotes: "Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."

You probably know more about carbon footprints than me, and maybe we have already ruined the planet beyond all recognition, but we can still try. What can I say, I'm a hopeless optimist.

Edited February 24, 2011 by Maestro
Reduced quoted text. No need to quote the entire text of multiple posts.

[luckizuchinni]

Fair point, I wasn't really being literal. But, to use one of my favourite quotes: "Nobody made a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."

You probably know more about carbon footprints than me, and maybe we have already ruined the planet beyond all recognition, but we can still try. What can I say, I'm a hopeless optimist.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I do agree we should try. I am just not as optimistic until the powers that be truly understand that it is in everyone;s best interest. Individual people can make an impact, even an significant impact, but it will take governments and business to "solve" the problems. Business won't do it unless they realize it is more profitable, and governments won't do it unless the alternative is to lose power.

[Puccini]

Just a note: The elephant didn't attack the people, it was fighting another elephant. All injuries came from people falling off the elephants [and afterward getting in the way of them running].

The news article in the OP put it differently:

The elephant threw off the mahout and the Swiss woman, who was then intentionally trampled to death by the enraged animal.

[TAWP]

Just a note: The elephant didn't attack the people, it was fighting another elephant. All injuries came from people falling off the elephants [and afterward getting in the way of them running].

The news article in the OP put it differently:

The elephant threw off the mahout and the Swiss woman, who was then intentionally trampled to death by the enraged animal.

And it is not the only article on the event.

[bangon04]

More people die each year from their domesticated dogs than they do from elephants. And horses are not domesticated but trained, yet people still ride them. But let's not miss a chance to bash Thailand and its people, eh?

Staistically I would guess many more westerners are killed or maimed by horses than by elephants.

The same people arguing for elephants to be left alone, would probably then be campaigning for someone to help/pay to preserve the elephant population which would have to die out.

[oldsailor35]

Jeez, very scary.

A reminder that these are wild animals afterall. Amazes me why people want to climb on elephant backs and have photos taken while cuddling tigers!

Yep ! a mate of mine got killed by getting into a car a couple of years ago.

[oldsailor35]

... But then there are many travel agents whose sole concern is making money...

"whose sole concern is making money"....................Ya know, i often wondered what travel agents were there for ?

Edited February 24, 2011 by Maestro
Reduced quoted text.

[Maestro]

A general note: it will be much easier to read this topic if members do not quote the entire text of multiple posts.

Thank you!

[canine79]

     “The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated”

- Mahatma Gandhi

[canine79]

Amen!

[oldsailor35]

I saw somewhere today that Siam Safari had generously sent a bowl of fruit to the injured in Bangkok Hospital.

Now there's an amazing gesture wouldn't you say!

Oh you naughty elephant ! i am going to punish you for hurting those farang. No tea tonight, i am going to send your bananas to those poor farang in hospital.

[oldsailor35]

Show me a reasonable solution to the issue of care and welfare to all the elephants living in Thailand and I will listen. But don't give me any clap about elephants being special because they are big, and don't come down from your foreign ivory tower to pass judgement on Thai mahouts and their elephants giving rides so as to survive.

Without generalising, I know of several mahouts, who make a very good living from elephants, so do not assume it provides a meager salary. Do you also know, that owning a baby elephant provides a much higher income, because tourists find them cute, and thus they receive more attention. Do you know where many of these baby elephant come from? No, they are not born to captive mothers, as the authorities would have you believe - they are more often than not, poached from the wild.

You are right in that there is no place for all the currently domesticated elephants in Thailand to be housed, but is there really a need to not only poach, but actively captive breed more elephants, simply for our entertainment? Baby elephants are mostly used for elephant painting, for which they are even more brutally tortured than in their initial pha-jaan ceremony. I worked with a baby who returned to it's mahout to be used in elephant painting, and when I saw it months later, I could barely recognise it. Aside from being covered in scars from numerous beatings, her playful spirit had been completely broken.

Did you also know that elephants in captivity have been known to try and commit suicide, and captive mothers have also been known to deliberately trample their new born baby so that it will not have to endure the same fate that she has.

I do not have the solution for what to do with all the elephants, however, I do know there are other solutions than beating them into submission. There are many places which still use elephants for riding, but they still love and care for the elephants, treat them with respect, only ride them bareback (so as not to cause saddle sores), and only use them for a maximum of 2 hours a day. Many other elephant camps not only systematically abuse and starve their elephants, they also work them day and night, using amphetamines to keep them awake.

And, no, I don't eat meat.

What a shame, i was going to ask you if its ok to eat elephant.

[Colabamumbai]

Elephants never forget.

[Logick]

More people die each year from their domesticated dogs than they do from elephants. And horses are not domesticated but trained, yet people still ride them. But let's not miss a chance to bash Thailand and its people, eh?

what a stupid comment

What a stupid reply.

What happened here was a tragedy, and no doubt due to negligence - but honestly, I've been silently reading this forum for a few months now, and there is definitely an automatic mob stance than develops wherever the slightest of opportunities appears - to look down one's nose at anything Thai (irrespective of the topic), using little more than emotively worded generalisations, agenda stained logic, poor-us type appeal to audience, other fallacies, and combinations thereof.

Crappy 1st post, but seriously - get over yourselves. It's about the money... everywhere. It just gets more in your face the bigger the gap between what you have, and what the others surrounding you have.

Causality - heard of it?

If any of you are so disgusted at everything in Thailand, why not just leave and never come back? It has to be better than accumulating bitterness and self-pity, or is the high attained from the illusion of moral superiority enough to make it all worth it?

Another thing - I don't support cruelty, obviously, but South Asians have been sitting on elephants since Ancient India - to bash the whole practice, rather than the elements of malpractice, is idiotic and hypocrisy.

All domesticate/trained species were once wild - so the horse parallel presented by NCFC is a valid one, that only one who did not wish to understand, would not understand.