Will Advice

[gerry53]

I am looking for a lawyer to do my will and last testament for my Thai assets and having my Thai G/F as the beneficiary, I do not want the Thai government to confiscate them. My Thai assets are only a motorcycle, bank account and an investment account at the same bank. I had been advised of a service near immigration that did simple wills and only charged only 5,000 baht, when I enquired it was 20,000 baht which seemed ridiculous. I tried a second Thai law office and they wanted 10,000 baht for Thai only writting and 15,000 if I wanted a copy in english also. Does anyone have any recent experiences and prices? I did a search and know you can do one yourself and pay for translation but feel more comfortable with a real lawyer giving advice. Does a Thai will need to be registered as in many other countries?

Thanks

[Langsuan Man]

If you don't want the Thai government to get your assets then don't let a Thai lawyer get them either

Get an English simple will translated from one of the translating companies you see here at Thai Visa

Go to the Amphur in Bamlamung and have them process and register it for you

You will need 1. copy of your Passport (Face page and Visa) 2. A medical certificate available for 100-150 THB from any clinic 3. Original and copy of the Thai and English Will 4. You will need two Thai witnesses (the girls at the Amphur will be most happy to be your witnesses (don't forget to tip) 5. Take your girl so she can show them her Thai ID card 6. 20 THB baht to pay for it all

They will witness everything, place the information in their registry book, and will seal the envelope containing the Will in an envelope, place it into storage, and will give you a receipt

Using a lawyer is fraught with danger since they will not register the Will until you are dead and then how do you know that what you wrote is what was registered

This way you maintain control through the whole process. The only caveat is that in case of any dispute the Thai version of the Will will take precedence

BTW. I did the above process less than a year ago and the requirements I cited are directly from the Banglamung Amphur

Who do you trust the most, a lawyer or yourself ? This is one time where the DYI route is the best and safest way to go

[luudee]

If you don't want the Thai government to get your assets then don't let a Thai lawyer get them either

Get an English simple will translated from one of the translating companies you see here at Thai Visa

Go to the Amphur in Bamlamung and have them process and register it for you

You will need 1. copy of your Passport (Face page and Visa) 2. A medical certificate available for 100-150 THB from any clinic 3. Original and copy of the Thai and English Will 4. You will need two Thai witnesses (the girls at the Amphur will be most happy to be your witnesses (don't forget to tip) 5. Take your girl so she can show them her Thai ID card 6. 20 THB baht to pay for it all

...

This is great info, thanks for that !

Does anybody know if I can leave everything to my underage kids ? I am

divorced, my kids are 8 & 6 at this time. Money could be held in an account

until they are 18/21, but how about house, car, and other crap I am accumulating ?

Thanks,

rudi

[gerry53]

Thanks for the info Langsuan Man, much of the professional Thai legal advice I have seen seems to be conflicting depending on the lawyer you talk to. When going into the Banglamung Amphur do I need to itemize each asset ( ie bank account, investment account, motorcycle registration etc).

Why would a medical certificate be needed other than to prove mental compentency for a will? Do the doctors have a special form for this medical certificate or is it one like for immigration or the Thai drivers licences?

[Madame]

Money could be held in an account

until they are 18/21, but how about house, car, and other crap I am accumulating ?

Thanks,

rudi

A friend of ours has a problem how to be kept the money until his daughter will be 18.

(His daughter is from a Thai women, but our friend and the mother of the child are not married.)

Can somebody of you give a good advice how to solve this problem?

Can our friend open a bank account which is "closed" until the child is 18?

[Langsuan Man]

Thanks for the info Langsuan Man, much of the professional Thai legal advice I have seen seems to be conflicting depending on the lawyer you talk to. When going into the Banglamung Amphur do I need to itemize each asset ( ie bank account, investment account, motorcycle registration etc).

Why would a medical certificate be needed other than to prove mental compentency for a will? Do the doctors have a special form for this medical certificate or is it one like for immigration or the Thai drivers licences?

NO, need to itemize, just make it clear that you are talking about your assets in Thailand and exclude your assets in your home country. One of the advantages of doing this way is that you can write your Will in plain English, which will be translated into plain Thai

I happened to mention all property, bank accounts, motor vehicles and personal possessions that may be in my name at the time of my death, but did not itemize

The Medical Certificate is the same one you get at any clinic for Drivers Licenses, etc. and you are correct in that it is required for the "sound mind and body " part that is the preamble to most Wills

The only question the Amphur had for my girlfriend was "Did he really do this on his own" trying to find out whether or not she influenced me, to which she replied "he smart man"

As far as the question about children, best to consult a lawyer, my solution is for a simple Will, not one which deals with minor children. In the US you can open a bank account "in trust for" a minor child but I am not sure about Thailand

One final bit of advice, use the Thai ID card number of any Thai beneficiary in addition to their name, since no matter what, the ID card number stays the same from cradle to grave

[Rimmer]

This is most interesting and useful advice, thanks for posting Langsuan Man

[RabC]

Any chance of having a sticky put on this one please?

[catwho]

If you don't want the Thai government to get your assets then don't let a Thai lawyer get them either

Get an English simple will translated from one of the translating companies you see here at Thai Visa

Go to the Amphur in Bamlamung and have them process and register it for you

You will need 1. copy of your Passport (Face page and Visa) 2. A medical certificate available for 100-150 THB from any clinic 3. Original and copy of the Thai and English Will 4. You will need two Thai witnesses (the girls at the Amphur will be most happy to be your witnesses (don't forget to tip) 5. Take your girl so she can show them her Thai ID card 6. 20 THB baht to pay for it all

They will witness everything, place the information in their registry book, and will seal the envelope containing the Will in an envelope, place it into storage, and will give you a receipt

Using a lawyer is fraught with danger since they will not register the Will until you are dead and then how do you know that what you wrote is what was registered

This way you maintain control through the whole process. The only caveat is that in case of any dispute the Thai version of the Will will take precedence

BTW. I did the above process less than a year ago and the requirements I cited are directly from the Banglamung Amphur

Who do you trust the most, a lawyer or yourself ? This is one time where the DYI route is the best and safest way to go

Thanks laugsuan man great adivce,it would make sence to have the wife ,,[my wife at least and legal],,make a will at the amphur as well, and save the lawyer,i did go to one a while back[lawyer] who said the will would be stamped by judge or whoever in wax ,if wax broken before read null and void.but never got around to it.we have 2 kids now and god forbid

nothing happens to her but things would get difficult if all things are in her name and she was to pass away

yourself or anyone have any thought on wifes WILL seeming we have this pinned now,[thanks for that].

thanks in advance.

cat

[howto]

thanks for making this a sticky...perhaps it can be placed in other forums.

Here are links I've gathered...hope they help

-- links valid as of 2011-03-05 --

LAST WILL AND TESTAMENT IN THAILAND (Isaan Lawyers http://www.thailawonline.com)

http://www.thailawonline.com/en/inheritance-and-wills/inheritance-and-wills-thailand-thai-law-living-will

above link dead, changed to...

http://www.thailawonline.com/en/family/inheritance-and-wills.html

Downloads from above link...

http://www.thailawonline.com/en/family/living-wills-in-thailand (Link to below)

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/Wills%20and%20Estate%20Planning.pdf

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/images/Succession%20CCCT.pdf

http://www.isaanlawyers.com/Wills%20in%20Thailand.pdf

LIVING WILLS IN THAILAND (Isaan Lawyers http://www.thailawonline.com)

http://www.thailawonline.com/en/family/living-wills-in-thailand

The regulation about 'Living Wills" was signed on October 6th 2010 by the Prime minister of Thailand.

It was published on 22nd October 2010 in the Royal Thai Gazette.

According to clause 1, it will be applicable 210 days after the publication in the Governmental Gazette, so around June 2011.

You can find the regulation in Thai here:

http://www.thailawonline.com/images/documents/Living%20Wills%20in%20Thailand%20-%20Regulation%20in%20Thai.pdf

And an unofficial translation in English here:

http://thailawonline.com/images/documents/living_will_regulation_%28Thailand%29_English_by_Isaan_Lawyers.pdf

OTHER RELATED DOCUMENTS AND ARTICLES (links on this page)

* Health Act, (2007)

**no link

* Tilleke Gibbins

http://www.tillekeandgibbins.com/Publications/Newsletters/legal_development/legal_developments_nov07.pdf

* Bangkok Post commentary:

17856/a-living-will-that-allows-us-to-die-in-peace (you find it)

* Bangkok Post article:

19395/living-will (you find it)

* Bangkok Post article: Dying patient's rights plan approved

162067 (you find it)

* Matichon Online (Thai)

http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1253604998

* Other article in Thai language

""National Health Act, living wills ... start writing ... "I die."""

http://www.komchadluek.net/detail/20090910/27859/%25E0%25B8%259E.%25E0%25B8%25A3.%25E0%25B8%259A.%25E0%25B8%25AA%25E0%25B8%25B8%25E0%25B8%2582%25E0%25B8%25A0%25E0%25B8%25B2%25E0%25B8%259E%25E0%25B9%2581%25E0%25B8%25AB%25E0%25B9%2588%25E0%25B8%2587%25E0%25B8%258A%25E0%25B8%25B2%25E0%25B8%2595%25E0%25B8%25B4...%25E0%25B9%2580%25E0%25B8%25A3%25E0%25B8%25B4%25E0%25B9%2588%25E0%25B8%25A1%25E0%25B8%259E%25E0%25B8%25B4%25E0%25B8%2599%25E0%25B8%25B1%25E0%25B8%25A2%25E0%25B8%2581%25E0%25B8%25A3%25E0%25B8%25A3%25E0%25B8%25A1%25E0%25B8%258A%25E0%25B8%25B5%25E0%25B8%25A7%25E0%25B8%25B4%25E0%25B8%2595...%25E0%25B9%2580%25E0%25B8%2582%25E0%25B8%25B5%25E0%25B8%25A2%25E0%25B8%2599%25E0%25B8%2582%25E0%25B8%25AD%25E0%25B8%2595%25E0%25B8%25B2%25E0%25B8%25A2.html

LINKS TO THAIVISA THREADS (AS OF JULY 2010)

[NALAK]

could you not put the bike in her name now and make the accounts joint so she can get the money after your demise. going to see a british lawyer tomorrow about the same thing on soi 3rd road called british law, specialises in divorce will etc, funnily enough i am changing my will to take out thai GF, all going to World vet service. let you know how much and what he says. the thought of her family sitting on there <deleted> blowing the money i inherited does not sit well on my mind, they had enough already.

[NALAK]

could you not put the bike in her name now and make the accounts joint so she can get the money after your demise. going to see a british lawyer tomorrow about the same thing on soi 3rd road called british law, specialises in divorce will etc, funnily enough i am changing my will to take out thai GF, all going to World vet service. let you know how much and what he says. the thought of her family sitting on there <deleted> blowing the money i inherited does not sit well on my mind, they had enough already.

sods law he has had to return to the UK for 2 weeks but will follow up

[prk888]

A very usefiul thread, thanks

Langsuan Man - did you mention an executor in the Will? Or will that complcate matters in your view?

[Langsuan Man]

Yes I did and also included an alternate

Since there have been so many questions regarding this, here is mine with individual names redacted I have bolded the areas of special importance here in Thailand (IMHO)

I, xxxxxxxxxxx , residing at (address) Kingdom of Thailand, an unmarried male, declare this to be my Last Will and Testament, and I revoke any and all wills and codicils I previously made in the Kingdom.

ARTICLE I: Funeral expenses & payment of debt

I direct my executors to pay my enforceable unsecured debts and funeral expenses, to include but not limited to the cremation of my remains, the expenses of my last illness, and the expenses of administering my estate.

ARTICLE II: Money & Personal Property

I give all my tangible personal property, bank accounts, cash, automobiles, and all policies and proceeds of insurance covering such property that is located in the Kingdom of Thailand, to my partner, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Thai ID number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. If she does not survive me, I give that property to her minor (under 18) children who survive me, in equal shares, to be divided among them by my executors in their absolute discretion. My executors may pay out of my estate the expenses of delivering tangible personal property to beneficiaries.

ARTICLE III: Real Estate

I give all my residences, that are in my name or in the company name of xxxxxxxxx, subject to any mortgages or encumbrances thereon, and all policies and proceeds of insurance covering such property, to my partner, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx . If she does not survive me, I give that property to her minor children.

ARTICLE IV: Residuary Clause

I give the rest of my estate (called my residuary estate) to my partner, xxxxxxxxxxxxx, If she does not survive me, I give my residuary estate to her minor children who survive me, in equal shares, to be divided among them.

ARTICLE V: Fiduciaries

I appoint my partner, xxxxxxxxxxxxx, as Executor of this will. If she is unable or unwilling to act, or resigns, I appoint her son-in- law, xxxxxxxxx, as her successor. If this successor also predeceases me or is unable or unwilling to act, his survivor shall serve as executor. My executor shall have all the powers allowable to executors under the laws of this country. I direct that no bond or security of any kind shall be required of any executor.

ARTICLE VI: Simultaneous Death Clause



If my partner, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, and I shall die under such circumstances that the order of our deaths cannot be readily ascertained, my partner shall be deemed to have predeceased me. No person, other than my partner, shall be deemed to have survived me if such person dies within 30 days after my death. This article modifies all provisions of this will accordingly.

I have signed this will this ____ day of ____, 20___ .

___________________

(legal signature)

SIGNED AND DECLARED by xxxxxxxxxxxxx on________________to be his will, in our presence, who at his request, in his presence and in the presence of each other, all being present at the same time, have signed our names as witnesses.

___________________

(signature and Thai ID number)

___________________

(signature and Thai ID number)

[prk888]

many thanks

Who did you use for the translation locally as some of the phraseology may confuse many Thais? Thanks again.

Yes I did and also included an alternate

Since there have been so many questions regarding this, here is mine with individual names redacted I have bolded the areas of special importance here in Thailand (IMHO)

I, xxxxxxxxxxx , residing at (address) Kingdom of Thailand, an unmarried male, declare this to be my Last Will and Testament, and I revoke any and all wills and codicils I previously made in the Kingdom.

ARTICLE I: Funeral expenses & payment of debt

I direct my executors to pay my enforceable unsecured debts and funeral expenses, to include but not limited to the cremation of my remains, the expenses of my last illness, and the expenses of administering my estate.

ARTICLE II: Money & Personal Property

I give all my tangible personal property, bank accounts, cash, automobiles, and all policies and proceeds of insurance covering such property that is located in the Kingdom of Thailand, to my partner, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, Thai ID number xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. If she does not survive me, I give that property to her minor (under 18) children who survive me, in equal shares, to be divided among them by my executors in their absolute discretion. My executors may pay out of my estate the expenses of delivering tangible personal property to beneficiaries.

ARTICLE III: Real Estate

I give all my residences, that are in my name or in the company name of xxxxxxxxx, subject to any mortgages or encumbrances thereon, and all policies and proceeds of insurance covering such property, to my partner, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx . If she does not survive me, I give that property to her minor children.

ARTICLE IV: Residuary Clause

I give the rest of my estate (called my residuary estate) to my partner, xxxxxxxxxxxxx, If she does not survive me, I give my residuary estate to her minor children who survive me, in equal shares, to be divided among them.

ARTICLE V: Fiduciaries

I appoint my partner, xxxxxxxxxxxxx, as Executor of this will. If she is unable or unwilling to act, or resigns, I appoint her son-in- law, xxxxxxxxx, as her successor. If this successor also predeceases me or is unable or unwilling to act, his survivor shall serve as executor. My executor shall have all the powers allowable to executors under the laws of this country. I direct that no bond or security of any kind shall be required of any executor.

ARTICLE VI: Simultaneous Death Clause



If my partner, xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, and I shall die under such circumstances that the order of our deaths cannot be readily ascertained, my partner shall be deemed to have predeceased me. No person, other than my partner, shall be deemed to have survived me if such person dies within 30 days after my death. This article modifies all provisions of this will accordingly.

I have signed this will this ____ day of ____, 20___ .

___________________

(legal signature)

SIGNED AND DECLARED by xxxxxxxxxxxxx on________________to be his will, in our presence, who at his request, in his presence and in the presence of each other, all being present at the same time, have signed our names as witnesses.

___________________

(signature and Thai ID number)

___________________

(signature and Thai ID number)

[Langsuan Man]

many thanks

Who did you use for the translation locally as some of the phraseology may confuse many Thais? Thanks again.

See post # 2

Get an English simple will translated from one of the translating companies you see here at Thai Visa

http://directory.thaivisa.com/thailand/pattaya/visa-services/nor-service-thailand-co

[SweatiePie]

My attention was drawn to this thread, as it appears to contain some good, sound, simple legal advice - it does, but at the same time it contains some glaring errors and inaccuracies and it could lead to a will made and registered as advised being contested and declared invalid and a number of other potentially major problems. Some of it is misleading and some of it, I am afraid, is simply wrong.

I have no intention of going into a prolonged technical dispute about the legal niceties or about the dangers of making a will which is available to public view while you are alive (as reccommended here, although there are alternatives at the Amphur) . With no arbiter and no moderator qualified to judge the legal validity of the discussion there is little point.

Although being a Thai lawyer makes me somewhat biased I see no problem over lawyers charging a reasonable fee for reasonable work. In the case of a simple will (and I emphasise simple, as the example shown here is neither simple nor complete; some of it directly contradicts Thai company and basic law and some of it is simply obfuscation at its worst) you should expect to pay between 3,000 and 7,000 baht in Pattaya for a will written in English with a translation to Thai. The Thai translation does not need to be signed: unless it can be proven that you could read and write Thai and knew for yourself exactly what you were signing, a document in your own language is preferable in the event of any judicial dispute to one which it can be proven you did not understand for yourself and which had to be translated for you.

If you think the financial future of your family/wife/girl-friend/boy-friend/partner is worth 20 baht then take the "DIY" route described here; I have no doubt at all that you will get full value for your money.

If you think it is worth a little more then I would strongly advise you to see a qualified, registered and experienced lawyer.

[Langsuan Man]

I was waiting for some self serving Thai lawyer to butt in here, with the emphasis on self serving

This post is about a simple will and anyone having a complicated estate that MAY BE SUBJECT TO A CHALLENGE would do well to employ a lawyer

But for the vast majority of expats here in Thailand who have a minimum of property here the simple method described in this thread is sufficient

I will leave it up to the readers to make up their own minds on what to do

My opinion is that I trust the Amphur to safeguard and protect my last will and testament more than I would a Thai lawyer who insists on keeping the will in his possession and only registering it when I am gone

If you think that someone is going to challenge your will then get a lawyer, if not, do it yourself and don't be fooled by false claims of doom and gloom

[NALAK]

just done mine with a lawyer, it will be worded to revoke any previous will, not sure about the revoke any wills in the kingdom as there may be one back home which that statement would not include.. dont know about the term reside either, do we reside in Thailand. eitherway i used a lawyer and got a copy in thai and english and made him executer, tied in with his firm in the UK as well, so the frim in the UK will be the executer. takes up more of the assets with sols fees but its all going to charity anyway, not North Thailand this will be me looking down at the reading of the will.

[SweatiePie]

Some advice for you for free, Nalak, as is all my legal advice less that to a very few clients who don't care about paying extortionate fees: ignore LM's will as posted here. Not only does it appear to be legally invalid, but it introduces totally unnecessary detail which is at best confusing and at worst could result in his beneficiary only getting part of the rights to any property owned in a company name.

Nalak, or anyone else thinking of leaving their estate to charity, if your estate is going to charity I suggest you make them your executor, not a "self serving Thai lawyer" (or any lawyer). Its much simpler, they will usually do the will for you, and you can usually expect a lawyer to take up to 7% of an estate as their fee - the smaller the estate, the larger the size of the fee. Nearly missed it: no need or point in any mention of where you "reside" - its irrelevant, and you may change address; if you feel you have to then use "currently living at ........"

Gerry53, apart from your bike a will may not be necessary for the accounts; most banks here allow you to name a beneficiary in the event of your death. If you prefer a will then keep it simple , unlike the example here, and if any lawyer wants more than 7,000 baht go elsewhere; 3,000 baht for a simple will in Thai and English (all my property in Thailand ..... to Miss xxx xxxx, Id card number 12345678) is not unreasonable and is readily available. Sorry I can't recommend a lawyer, but that could be construed as "self serving".

KEEP IT SIMPLE.

This is not my particular field so I cannot quote the specific numbers for the articles of law without taking the time to look them up, although I will do if my opinion is questioned. The first point I should make is that lawyers do not keep your will unless you ask them to or they are your executor; where and who keeps your will is entirely your decision. Administrators for Wills (the equivalent of executors) cannot be approved by a Thai court (the equivalent of a Grant of Probate) until you are "gone", irrespective of whether your Will is registered with the Amphur or not.

Keep your will simple - rein in your ego and your idea of what a will should sound like, and above all avoid confusing the issue unnecessarily.

Choose your executor/administrator carefully - if your Will includes property overseas it may be better to choose someone you can trust from whatever country the property is in rather than a beneficiary who may have problems communicating in a foreign language.

If your Will covers a number of countries then you will probably need a similar number of "original" Wills - in the UK, for example, you would need to apply for probate separately in the UK, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man if you have offshore accounts.

Get advice from those who are qualified to give it. Far too many posting on the internet and saying how they did it successfully and cheaply have no idea that all they have done is to make major problems for their partner which they will have to deal with without your help. A lawyer may be expensive (some are) but it is often a question of whether you would prefer to pay now yourself or for your partner to pay considerably more later.

The particular problems with LM's will, as I understand from what he has posted here, are as follows:

1. Both the Thai and English versions of the will are legally invalid.

The English version must be witnessed by witnesses who can at least understand the full signature block as it is written (in English), not as it is translated (into Thai). If they did not understand what they were signing the document has not been witnessed and is not valid. I do not believe "the girls at the Amphur" could do this with LM's Will without considerable help.

The Thai version of a translated Will is not valid unless the translation is not only certified, as a standard translation, but is also signed by the person who wrote it and by two witnesses; this is specific to a Will so most translators may not be aware of this, although most lawyers should be.

2. When revoking previous Wills you should revoke not those "made in the Kingdom" but those referring to any property held in Thailand (eg I revoke all former Wills and Testaments relating to my property in Thailand).

Any Wills made elsewhere may not have been country specific so their provisions were worldwide and by not revoking them you are confusing the issue unnecessarily and leaving the Will concerning Thai property open to challenge and doubt.

3. Expenses. Keep it simple: do not limit the expenses to be paid from the estate too closely. There is no need to mention hospital bills: these are simply debts. If you fell you have to write something then instead of limiting hospital costs to your "last illness" (most people dying of natural causes die of a number of causes) simply put "outstanding medical bills".

4. Articles 2, 3 and 4 are not only unnecessary but highly problematic even if the will is not challenged.

Keep it simple: apart from intellectual property all property is "tangible property". There is no point in dividing it up if the beneficiaries are the same, as they are here. A simple "all property in Thailand over which I have any disposing power at the time of my death" covers everything.

Introducing "residences" that are "in the company name of xxxxxxxxx" should be avoided at all costs - there is simply no reason to mention it and every reason not to. An administrator for your Will has to be approved by a judge in court; he may or may not take the time to read the Will in detail, but if he does (and most do) then he should note that you are giving away property that is not yours - you do not own the company even if you are the sole director so you cannot give it away without compensating the other shareholders who own the majority of the company (probably 61%). Some judges have noticed this and gone so far as to make an entry ensuring that the usually nominee shareholders are correctly compensated, with the intended beneficiary ending up with less than half of the value of the property.

Rather than hope that the judge will ignore or overlook this, there is no reason to introduce it - the Company Directorship is "property" so it will be transferred to the beneficiaries along with all other property.

The division of property in the event of the death of the first beneficiary is conflicting. If it is to be divided in "equal shares" this cannot be at the "executors"' "absolute discretion". It can be one or the other, not both.

5. Administrators. Keep it simple: Thailand does not have executors or "fiduciaries" - the term fiduciary should be avoided as it implies fiduciary trusts for minors. Name one administrator (who can also be the beneficiary) and a second in the event of their death, and another in the event of theirs if you have to. Avoid the terms "successor" and "survivor"; if you have to, use administrator (or executor, if you prefer) and next-of-kin respectively.

6. The Simultaneous Death Clause is unnecessary as it doesn't "modify" any "provisions" in the Will. Similarly all the "30 day" provision does in effect is freeze all assets for 30 days; the inclusion of this clause derives from countries that have Inheritance Tax, as it avoids a "double whammy" of Inheritance Tax if one beneficiary dies within a month of inheriting, but it is unnecessary in Thailand.

7. In the event that you and your partner die together (for example in a traffic accident) and her children are aged over 18 you have named no beneficiaries and will be deemed to have died intestate. If your embassy cannot find any next of kin who can claim your estate it will go to "the Thai government".

The only aspect I can't understand about the whole episode at the Thai Amphur is why when the Thai staff asked your Thai girlfriend in Thai if you had made the Will yourself she replied "he smart man" in English. Odd.

[NALAK]

Some advice for you for free, Nalak, as is all my legal advice less that to a very few clients who don't care about paying extortionate fees: ignore LM's will as posted here. Not only does it appear to be legally invalid, but it introduces totally unnecessary detail which is at best confusing and at worst could result in his beneficiary only getting part of the rights to any property owned in a company name.

Nalak, or anyone else thinking of leaving their estate to charity, if your estate is going to charity I suggest you make them your executor, not a "self serving Thai lawyer" (or any lawyer). Its much simpler, they will usually do the will for you, and you can usually expect a lawyer to take up to 7% of an estate as their fee - the smaller the estate, the larger the size of the fee. Nearly missed it: no need or point in any mention of where you "reside" - its irrelevant, and you may change address; if you feel you have to then use "currently living at ........"

Gerry53, apart from your bike a will may not be necessary for the accounts; most banks here allow you to name a beneficiary in the event of your death. If you prefer a will then keep it simple , unlike the example here, and if any lawyer wants more than 7,000 baht go elsewhere; 3,000 baht for a simple will in Thai and English (all my property in Thailand ..... to Miss xxx xxxx, Id card number 12345678) is not unreasonable and is readily available. Sorry I can't recommend a lawyer, but that could be construed as "self serving".

KEEP IT SIMPLE.

This is not my particular field so I cannot quote the specific numbers for the articles of law without taking the time to look them up, although I will do if my opinion is questioned. The first point I should make is that lawyers do not keep your will unless you ask them to or they are your executor; where and who keeps your will is entirely your decision. Administrators for Wills (the equivalent of executors) cannot be approved by a Thai court (the equivalent of a Grant of Probate) until you are "gone", irrespective of whether your Will is registered with the Amphur or not.

Keep your will simple - rein in your ego and your idea of what a will should sound like, and above all avoid confusing the issue unnecessarily.

Choose your executor/administrator carefully - if your Will includes property overseas it may be better to choose someone you can trust from whatever country the property is in rather than a beneficiary who may have problems communicating in a foreign language.

If your Will covers a number of countries then you will probably need a similar number of "original" Wills - in the UK, for example, you would need to apply for probate separately in the UK, Jersey, Guernsey and the Isle of Man if you have offshore accounts.

Get advice from those who are qualified to give it. Far too many posting on the internet and saying how they did it successfully and cheaply have no idea that all they have done is to make major problems for their partner which they will have to deal with without your help. A lawyer may be expensive (some are) but it is often a question of whether you would prefer to pay now yourself or for your partner to pay considerably more later.

The particular problems with LM's will, as I understand from what he has posted here, are as follows:

1. Both the Thai and English versions of the will are legally invalid.

The English version must be witnessed by witnesses who can at least understand the full signature block as it is written (in English), not as it is translated (into Thai). If they did not understand what they were signing the document has not been witnessed and is not valid. I do not believe "the girls at the Amphur" could do this with LM's Will without considerable help.

The Thai version of a translated Will is not valid unless the translation is not only certified, as a standard translation, but is also signed by the person who wrote it and by two witnesses; this is specific to a Will so most translators may not be aware of this, although most lawyers should be.

2. When revoking previous Wills you should revoke not those "made in the Kingdom" but those referring to any property held in Thailand (eg I revoke all former Wills and Testaments relating to my property in Thailand).

Any Wills made elsewhere may not have been country specific so their provisions were worldwide and by not revoking them you are confusing the issue unnecessarily and leaving the Will concerning Thai property open to challenge and doubt.

3. Expenses. Keep it simple: do not limit the expenses to be paid from the estate too closely. There is no need to mention hospital bills: these are simply debts. If you fell you have to write something then instead of limiting hospital costs to your "last illness" (most people dying of natural causes die of a number of causes) simply put "outstanding medical bills".

4. Articles 2, 3 and 4 are not only unnecessary but highly problematic even if the will is not challenged.

Keep it simple: apart from intellectual property all property is "tangible property". There is no point in dividing it up if the beneficiaries are the same, as they are here. A simple "all property in Thailand over which I have any disposing power at the time of my death" covers everything.

Introducing "residences" that are "in the company name of xxxxxxxxx" should be avoided at all costs - there is simply no reason to mention it and every reason not to. An administrator for your Will has to be approved by a judge in court; he may or may not take the time to read the Will in detail, but if he does (and most do) then he should note that you are giving away property that is not yours - you do not own the company even if you are the sole director so you cannot give it away without compensating the other shareholders who own the majority of the company (probably 61%). Some judges have noticed this and gone so far as to make an entry ensuring that the usually nominee shareholders are correctly compensated, with the intended beneficiary ending up with less than half of the value of the property.

Rather than hope that the judge will ignore or overlook this, there is no reason to introduce it - the Company Directorship is "property" so it will be transferred to the beneficiaries along with all other property.

The division of property in the event of the death of the first beneficiary is conflicting. If it is to be divided in "equal shares" this cannot be at the "executors"' "absolute discretion". It can be one or the other, not both.

5. Administrators. Keep it simple: Thailand does not have executors or "fiduciaries" - the term fiduciary should be avoided as it implies fiduciary trusts for minors. Name one administrator (who can also be the beneficiary) and a second in the event of their death, and another in the event of theirs if you have to. Avoid the terms "successor" and "survivor"; if you have to, use administrator (or executor, if you prefer) and next-of-kin respectively.

6. The Simultaneous Death Clause is unnecessary as it doesn't "modify" any "provisions" in the Will. Similarly all the "30 day" provision does in effect is freeze all assets for 30 days; the inclusion of this clause derives from countries that have Inheritance Tax, as it avoids a "double whammy" of Inheritance Tax if one beneficiary dies within a month of inheriting, but it is unnecessary in Thailand.

7. In the event that you and your partner die together (for example in a traffic accident) and her children are aged over 18 you have named no beneficiaries and will be deemed to have died intestate. If your embassy cannot find any next of kin who can claim your estate it will go to "the Thai government".

The only aspect I can't understand about the whole episode at the Thai Amphur is why when the Thai staff asked your Thai girlfriend in Thai if you had made the Will yourself she replied "he smart man" in English. Odd.

thanks, i looked at LM and straight away the wording revoke all previous wills in the Kingdom, well to me that excludes my last will in the UK as you say not to good. I have mine drawn up by a british lawyer with a small firm in Pattaya 6000 baht copy in English and Thai. the actual executer will be one the English guy here and 2 a firm of Solicitors in th eUK who he works with. investments are compicated and spread as are pensions i figured the animal charity would end up paying sols to sort it anyway. eitherway the charity will benefit, if i were in the UK as before i would have had a friend as executer but this one may be alittle compicated with me only having one living relative who is mother in care home. hopefully i have got most of it right but further coments appreciated. i assume the lawyer here is cosher, but obviously will check out with law society etc about the one in the UK.

All my assets are in the UK apart from a couple of thousand pounds here, i top it up every few months. so thats why English executer appointed. as you say down side mate would do it for free, sols will charge but i thinks its best as i will not see friend in UK until July, maybe change it then, not sure.

thanksgreat advice, any thing further you want to contribute appreciatted

[SweatiePie]

Nalak, I never comment on other solicitors once named so I can't do so here - that doesn't imply or infer that there's anything wrong with them in any way, I just never do it so whether they are "kosher" or not is your decision.

As you probably know anything you leave to a UK registered charity is exempt from UK Inheritance Tax.

If you are leaving all your assets worldwide to the one charity then there is no reason why you need more than one will, although as I said above you may need a number of "originals" depending on where your assets are (Thailand, mainland UK, Jersey, Guernsey, I of M, etc). Some countries/territories will retain a will once probate has been granted or the will approved so having a number of them makes it easier and is perfectly legal (as long as they are identical).

Above all, keep it simple. There is no need to be verbose or for your best attempt at "legalese" - everything is everything in any language!

As a simple example, most people leaving all their assets to one person or charity could use the following as a general template:

This will is made by me xxxxxxxxx

I revoke all former wills and testamentary depositions.

I appoint xxxxxxxxxx to be sole executor of this my will.

I give all my property and funds worldwide to which I may be entitled or over which I have any disposing power at the time of my death, after my funeral and testamentary expenses and any taxes rightfully due, to xxxxxxxxxx ID card number xxxxxxxxxxx.

In the event of the prior death of xxxxxxxxxx I give all such property to xxxxxxxxxxx.

I would strongly suggest that anyone leaving their assets to one person and then to another in the event of their death adds a charity as an ultimate beneficiary in the event of all those named dying together. Doom and gloom, but all these things are possible and most problems can be avoided with a little thought.

If you intend or need to leave anything to your mother, then I would suggest that you (and anyone leaving assets to more than one beneficiary) never leave set amounts; leave fractions or percentages of your estate instead (unless you want to leave someone a symbolic penny!).

If you do change your will remember that you are not obliged to tell your previous executor, but that it can complicate things considerably later if you don't - the original executor, for example, could apply unknowingly for approval or probate first, leading to a contested will and other problems and delays.

Madame, I'm sorry, but I missed the question about your friend's daughter and keeping funds "in trust" for her until she is 18. This, I am afraid, is a very complicated subject in Thailand and they need to seek expert and specialised advice depending on their specific circumstances. In most cases it is nowhere near as simple as in Europe or the States as there are considerable differences between countries whose laws are based on civil rather than common law.

He may well find that his simplest solution is to open an account for her abroad with a provision for her not to have access to that account until she is 18 and a proportion of his estate to be paid into that account on his death. Unless he can trust an administrator or executor to do that for him an alternative would be for him to open a joint account with her now, with her only having access to the account when she turns 18; the downside to that is that even if he is still alive when she turns 18 she can then access any funds in the account. He would also need to consider how she, or her surviving parent or guardian, could access those funds if they genuinely needed to - for example if she needed a life-saving operation that had to be paid for; in most cases banks either have no provision for that at all or the process takes so much time that she would be dead long before access was approved.

I wish I could be of more help, but I am afraid that this is one instance where general advice just doesn't work.

[NALAK]

Nalak, I never comment on other solicitors once named so I can't do so here - that doesn't imply or infer that there's anything wrong with them in any way, I just never do it so whether they are "kosher" or not is your decision.

As you probably know anything you leave to a UK registered charity is exempt from UK Inheritance Tax.

If you are leaving all your assets worldwide to the one charity then there is no reason why you need more than one will, although as I said above you may need a number of "originals" depending on where your assets are (Thailand, mainland UK, Jersey, Guernsey, I of M, etc). Some countries/territories will retain a will once probate has been granted or the will approved so having a number of them makes it easier and is perfectly legal (as long as they are identical).

Above all, keep it simple. There is no need to be verbose or for your best attempt at "legalese" - everything is everything in any language!

As a simple example, most people leaving all their assets to one person or charity could use the following as a general template:

This will is made by me xxxxxxxxx

I revoke all former wills and testamentary depositions.

I appoint xxxxxxxxxx to be sole executor of this my will.

I give all my property and funds worldwide to which I may be entitled or over which I have any disposing power at the time of my death, after my funeral and testamentary expenses and any taxes rightfully due, to xxxxxxxxxx ID card number xxxxxxxxxxx.

In the event of the prior death of xxxxxxxxxx I give all such property to xxxxxxxxxxx.

I would strongly suggest that anyone leaving their assets to one person and then to another in the event of their death adds a charity as an ultimate beneficiary in the event of all those named dying together. Doom and gloom, but all these things are possible and most problems can be avoided with a little thought.

If you intend or need to leave anything to your mother, then I would suggest that you (and anyone leaving assets to more than one beneficiary) never leave set amounts; leave fractions or percentages of your estate instead (unless you want to leave someone a symbolic penny!).

If you do change your will remember that you are not obliged to tell your previous executor, but that it can complicate things considerably later if you don't - the original executor, for example, could apply unknowingly for approval or probate first, leading to a contested will and other problems and delays.

Madame, I'm sorry, but I missed the question about your friend's daughter and keeping funds "in trust" for her until she is 18. This, I am afraid, is a very complicated subject in Thailand and they need to seek expert and specialised advice depending on their specific circumstances. In most cases it is nowhere near as simple as in Europe or the States as there are considerable differences between countries whose laws are based on civil rather than common law.

He may well find that his simplest solution is to open an account for her abroad with a provision for her not to have access to that account until she is 18 and a proportion of his estate to be paid into that account on his death. Unless he can trust an administrator or executor to do that for him an alternative would be for him to open a joint account with her now, with her only having access to the account when she turns 18; the downside to that is that even if he is still alive when she turns 18 she can then access any funds in the account. He would also need to consider how she, or her surviving parent or guardian, could access those funds if they genuinely needed to - for example if she needed a life-saving operation that had to be paid for; in most cases banks either have no provision for that at all or the process takes so much time that she would be dead long before access was approved.

I wish I could be of more help, but I am afraid that this is one instance where general advice just doesn't work.

that seems simple enough, all assets in Uk so appointed UK executer, i never actually named anybody as for all i kow it might be you i am using, either way Kosher or not its written now and hopefully should be legally binding.

your advice is sound and helpfull, thanks

[totonjoy]

I am a (retired) Will writer with over 25 years experience with a UK firm of Solicitors. To put it simply, if you are a "Western" expat you must make a Will, drawn up by a Western lawyer in English. He will make sure it contains your required provisions and that it is executed correctly. Translations may be necessary after your demise, but the document itself will almost certainly be recognised by foreign Courts.

Of course, nothing is 100% certain, as you are all well aware. This is Thailand after all, but I believe my suggestion is the best course.

[SweatiePie]

Totonjoy, agreed - your will should be in your native language (although not necessarily "English" for all "Western expats") unless you can read and write fluent Thai, as I explained above at some length. It does not, however, have to be made by a lawyer (Western or Thai) and if it is made by a "Western lawyer" you should ensure that he is versed in Thai law - there are considerable differences, such as the trust laws which I touched on briefly, and a "Western lawyer" may not be aware of these.

I should also point out that unless your solicitor is also the executor/administrator of your will (something I would avoid personally, unless you have no option as well as no friends) he will not "make sure ..... that it is executed correctly". If you have only paid him to draw up your will that is where his responsibilities begin and end; anything done with it after your demise is up to your administrator.

NALAK, I don't know which solicitor you finally used, but you did name a lawyer on 14 March; you are definitely not using me - most of my legal work is pro-bono, but when I charge my minimum fee to simply look at a case is 7 figures (baht).

[totonjoy]

I do of course defer to Thai experts here, but by the term "executed correctly" in English means "signed and witnessed" correctly. That validates the document in England & Wales. In my experience a valid English Will is usually recognised by foreign Courts, especially if the Will has been proved (by the issuing of a Grant of Probate) in England.

Interpretation of terms seems to be a danger here. Be careful everyone..........and good luck!

[SweatiePie]

Be careful indeed!

"duly executed" refers to a will that has been properly signed and witnessed so that it is rendered an enforceable, valid legal instrument (done before your death).

"executing the terms of a will" refers to the executor carrying out the wishes of the testator (done after your death).

"correctly executed" is a phrase I have not come across.

KEEP IT SIMPLE - legalese is no more necessary in your will than it is here!!

[prk888]

looking at all the comments in this very useful thread it seems that the following might be a sample, simple Will. Thanks to all contributors. No doubt some of this will be wrong too!

Last Will & Testament of XXXX

This Will is made by me XXXX holder of British Passport No: XXXX issued at XXXX England on XXXX & expiring on XXXX and currently living at XXXX Kingdom of Thailand and I declare this to be my Last Will and Testament.

I revoke all former Wills and Testaments relating to my property and other assets in Thailand.

I: Expenses & Payment of Debts

I direct my Administrator to pay any debts, any outstanding medical bills, funeral expenses, any taxes rightfully due and the expenses of administering my estate.

II: My Complete Estate

I give (i) all my Thai property over which I have any disposing power at the time of my death and (ii) all my other Thai assets including, bank accounts, cash, automobiles, any proceeds of insurance policies covering such property to my wife XXXX holder of Thai ID Card # XXXX.

If she does not survive me I give the Thai property and all the other Thai assets to XXXX

III: Administrator

I appoint my wife XXXX as Administrator of this Will.

If she is unable or unwilling to act I appoint XXXX holder of Thai ID card # XXXX (or passport number if farang) to act as Administrator.

If she is unable or unwilling to act then I appoint XXXX holder of XXXX Passport No. XXXX (or Thai ID card number) to act as Administrator.

My Administrator shall have all the powers allowable to an Administrator under the laws of this country. I direct that no bond or security of any kind shall be required of my Administrator.

I have signed this will this ………….…… day of …………..…….. 2011 .

……………………………………………..

Name: XXXX

SIGNED AND DECLARED by XXXX to be his Will in our presence who at his request and in his presence and in the presence of each other all being present at the same time have signed our names as witnesses.

………………………………………………………………………………….

(Signature & Thai ID number or passport number)

………………………………………………………………………………….

(Signature & Thai ID number or passport number)

[LukDod]

...<snipped>...'I should also point out that unless your solicitor is also the executor/administrator of your will (something I would avoid personally)...'

SweetiePie,

Your reply brings up my question:

I'd like my brother-in-law, a trial lawyer whom I implicitly trust, to function as the executor. My sister will be listed as primary beneficiary and

he as secondary beneficiary, should she not survive.

As he, like myself is a US citizen, would there be a problem for him to communicate with the Thai courts as he doesn't speak Thai??

Thank you

[gerry53]

Gerry53, apart from your bike a will may not be necessary for the accounts; most banks here allow you to name a beneficiary in the event of your death. If you prefer a will then keep it simple , unlike the example here, and if any lawyer wants more than 7,000 baht go elsewhere; 3,000 baht for a simple will in Thai and English (all my property in Thailand ..... to Miss xxx xxxx, Id card number 12345678) is not unreasonable and is readily available. Sorry I can't recommend a lawyer, but that could be construed as "self serving".

NALAK, I am the OP and when I inquired at the Kasikorn Bank they said I can not just add her as a beneficary, she would have to become joint owner and have full signing authority and I am not prepared to do that at this point. The Bank claims should I die they would contact my embassy and they would send the money to my country so it could be dispersed as per my will there??? I am not saying this is true but what the K Bank in Jomtien told me.