Ups For 2 Desktops And Lcd Monitors

[ETatBKK]

hi there

looking for an UPS for 2 desktops 2 LCD monitors. in market all local brands and non-standardised specifications, no idea which one is better.

great if you have any suggestion and where to buy !

[Tywais]

I only buy APC for my personal use and for all the systems at work. Here is a 1100VA 600Watt one which would be enough for two workstations.

This one is a 800VA 540Watt unit with USB port for monitoring and auto shutdown of the computer.

I also have a Powercom UPS I've been using for about 7-8 years with only a battery change one time and works well. Got it when APC was outside of my budget comfort level.

[jdinasia]

I would suggest that the monitors are of secondary importance unless you have prolonged power issues.

I use the UPS for my CPU and my router. I know the shortcuts to save whatever I am working on even if the monitor goes black.

[BangkokImages]

I'll only use APC which is available here, and Tripp Lite which isn't.

Don't take anyones word for which UPS will meet your needs. Go to the UPS manufacturers site and use their configurator where you'll need to know specific power requirements on all components of your computer, monitors, and other devices you'll be protecting. It will take you a bit of work to look up these numbers, but it's worth the time.

As examples. I have one workstation with a i7-950 (135 watts), ATI 5970 video card (up to 500 watts), 24gigs of RAM (90 watts), (1) SSD (7 watts), (8) HDD's (160 watts), and a 1000 watt PS. APC's configurator recommends a 1500 watt unit just for the CPU, if I want to protect the two 26.5" NEC monitors (which I do because they're pricey) I use with the workstation, then they recommend a 2000 watt server class unit. Note that APC's policy is to buy a UPS that supplies roughly double the power of your components) Another workstation: i7-920 (135 watts), 12gigs (40 watts), ATI 5770 video card (200 watts), (1) SSD (7 watts), (1) HDD (20 watts), 750 watt PS, and lower end 24" LED monitor.. gets by with a 650 watt unit. So, you can see it 'depends' on the components of each computer.

There are also two classes of UPS devices. Consumer and Server. Consumer class UPS's, with a fresh battery, might give up 12-15 minutes of backup power. A server class is much bigger and heavier, same wattage but with bigger battery and some enhanced control functions, can extend that over 30-40 minutes. If you have power outage issues and you want to use your computers during outages a server class becomes worth its weight in gold.

This is not an area to save money through a lower power unit or lesser brand.. but many buy these as an after thought thinking it will never happen to them..

[ETatBKK]

thanks guys

APC is available here, great ! not seen in Fortune or Pantip ? will do more window shopping . . .

yeah, the product selector is very helpful; but what ever my input, it shows me the most impressive smart UPS RT models. I can't afford it :-) I probably need at least 2. my router, storage HDs all upstair, and I work downstair.

be more precise, I more concern the power surge than the power down !! lost couple of minutes even hours of work, not much when at home. blow out these critical pieces, big trouble.

[BangkokImages]

thanks guys

APC is available here, great ! not seen in Fortune or Pantip ? will do more window shopping . . .

yeah, the product selector is very helpful; but what ever my input, it shows me the most impressive smart UPS RT models. I can't afford it :-) I probably need at least 2. my router, storage HDs all upstair, and I work downstair.

be more precise, I more concern the power surge than the power down !! lost couple of minutes even hours of work, not much when at home. blow out these critical pieces, big trouble.

1. They're everywhere in Pantip, check out IT City for sure.

2. The product selector is showing you the most expensive models? Don't you hate it when it does that? That's okay, they're giving you the power levels you need and you can use that to select the more affordable models. In Thailand I'd imagine there are two you'll be interested in. The 650 pro and the 1500 back. The last time I checked (a year ago) there wasn't anything between, but there might be now.

3. Power surges can definitely hurt your gear, but there are other issues you'll want to be concerned with. Brownouts (common here in Bangkok) where the power drops below a certain safe level but doesn't go out all the way out, power spikes from lightening, surges (kinda like the opposite of brownouts), and more.. All equally destructive. They sell "surge protector" outlets, we've all seen them.. but they're mostly worthless. Take one apart and you'll find one variation or the other of a MOV (metal oxide varistor) which costs about 15 baht and has a reaction time in the milliseconds.. plenty long enough to wreck your gear. A good UPS like APC will 'condition' your power and protect you from all these conditions. The battery back up is mostly a byproduct left over from what's there to make what you really need. (conditioned power), so they market it as a feature.. a feature everyone can easily understand and relate to.

And you're right, you'll want to protect your router/NAS/modem, etc.. with a small one upstairs.

4. Something else to look for, is if they sell replacement batteries for the models you're interested in. APC does, but I notice their local competitors don't. The batteries tend to last 3-5 years easily.. beyond that its cheaper to replace a battery rather than the entire unit.

If you're interested in a couple used APC models and can wait a month or so, PM me.

[ETatBKK]

3. Power surges can definitely hurt your gear, but there are other issues you'll want to be concerned with. Brownouts (common here in Bangkok) where the power drops below a certain safe level but doesn't go out all the way out, power spikes from lightening, surges (kinda like the opposite of brownouts), and more.. All equally destructive. They sell "surge protector" outlets, we've all seen them.. but they're mostly worthless. Take one apart and you'll find one variation or the other of a MOV (metal oxide varistor) which costs about 15 baht and has a reaction time in the milliseconds.. plenty long enough to wreck your gear. A good UPS like APC will 'condition' your power and protect you from all these conditions. The battery back up is mostly a byproduct left over from what's there to make what you really need. (conditioned power), so they market it as a feature.. a feature everyone can easily understand and relate to.

And you're right, you'll want to protect your router/NAS/modem, etc.. with a small one upstairs.

thanks for the info.

a while ago I tried to fix a 'surge protection' power bar, eeek ... completely not reliable in terms of basic electrical setup, not to mention about 'power surge' !! anyone thinks about power surge protection, this is NOT a solution !

for protecting the computer equipment everywhere ( bad planning ), and the home automation and lighting control system, I thought about a power regulator for the house, but the contractor not able to come up a reliable solution - not just behind a battery. now, I patch up with UPS at point of need.

on the other hand, I don't want to see all these techy boxes around, I don't want to live in a server room. my wife and my domestic helper won't like them neither :-(

[BuckarooBanzai]

I purchased a UPS a few years ago and due to brownouts here in Issan it was activated well over 50 percent of the time. Eventually the battery went dead and now the unit is worthless never having served its purpose during an actual power outage. The power in Issan, at least outside my house, often runs in the less than 200 volt range sometimes running as low as 190 for extended periods. I have seen it as low as 160. I attached a voltmeter to my fuse box and look at it often and do a lot of grumbling.

My question is - as long as the UPS is just feeding a 12 volt battery why can't it handle brown outs with a voltage leveling function instead of a "shutdown-alarm-temp power" response. Even 110 volt should be plenty to keep the current flowing into a 12 volt battery. Save the shutdowns for true power failures.

Any ideas on this or am I way off the mark? I certainly don't want to throw out any more good money after bad. Thanks for any help.

[Tywais]

My question is - as long as the UPS is just feeding a 12 volt battery why can't it handle brown outs with a voltage leveling function instead of a "shutdown-alarm-temp power" response. Even 110 volt should be plenty to keep the current flowing into a 12 volt battery. Save the shutdowns for true power failures.

There are multiple types of UPSes. The standby or off-line UPS is probably the most common for home use as it is less expensive. Essentially it feeds AC directly to the PC through relays and charges the battery at the same time. Since the computer is being fed AC directly off the power lines, though through filters on the UPS, the UPS must switch over to the battery inverter when the incoming AC is outside safe limits. This takes several AC cycles so several milliseconds to switch over. Most systems connected will not see this transition, such as a PC, as the PC power supply will have enough energy charge to keep the PC running for those few milliseconds.

Another type, more expensive, is the line-interactive UPS. It uses a variable tap transformer (auto transformer) and automatically switches taps to increase/decrease the AC to the PC. This will help with brownouts as long as it is within range of the taps the UPS can provide.

A 3rd, and more expensive, is the online or double-conversion UPS for critical systems. Essentially it is running off battery full time. The batteries are always connected to the inverter, so that no power transfer switches are necessary. When power loss occurs, the rectifier simply drops out of the circuit and the batteries keep the power steady and unchanged. When power is restored, the rectifier resumes carrying most of the load and begins charging the batteries, though the charging current may be limited to prevent the high-power rectifier from overheating the batteries and boiling off the electrolyte.

So, if you want the most stable under harsh conditions than an online UPS is the way to go. Again, this will be rather expensive compared to the others.

[Tywais]

Some useful information here.

[BangkokImages]

3. Power surges can definitely hurt your gear, but there are other issues you'll want to be concerned with. Brownouts (common here in Bangkok) where the power drops below a certain safe level but doesn't go out all the way out, power spikes from lightening, surges (kinda like the opposite of brownouts), and more.. All equally destructive. They sell "surge protector" outlets, we've all seen them.. but they're mostly worthless. Take one apart and you'll find one variation or the other of a MOV (metal oxide varistor) which costs about 15 baht and has a reaction time in the milliseconds.. plenty long enough to wreck your gear. A good UPS like APC will 'condition' your power and protect you from all these conditions. The battery back up is mostly a byproduct left over from what's there to make what you really need. (conditioned power), so they market it as a feature.. a feature everyone can easily understand and relate to.

And you're right, you'll want to protect your router/NAS/modem, etc.. with a small one upstairs.

thanks for the info.

a while ago I tried to fix a 'surge protection' power bar, eeek ... completely not reliable in terms of basic electrical setup, not to mention about 'power surge' !! anyone thinks about power surge protection, this is NOT a solution !

for protecting the computer equipment everywhere ( bad planning ), and the home automation and lighting control system, I thought about a power regulator for the house, but the contractor not able to come up a reliable solution - not just behind a battery. now, I patch up with UPS at point of need.

on the other hand, I don't want to see all these techy boxes around, I don't want to live in a server room. my wife and my domestic helper won't like them neither :-(

Many homes, especially in rural areas, are operating off single phase power which fluctuates wildly depending on how many people are using power at the time who are on your line.

You might want to check if this is the case, and if its possible to be upgraded to three phase. UPS devices for home use are generally for the 'occasional' power issue.. not to make up for deficiencies in the power grid itself.

[BangkokImages]

My question is - as long as the UPS is just feeding a 12 volt battery why can't it handle brown outs with a voltage leveling function instead of a "shutdown-alarm-temp power" response. Even 110 volt should be plenty to keep the current flowing into a 12 volt battery. Save the shutdowns for true power failures.

A 3rd, and more expensive, is the online or double-conversion UPS for critical systems. Essentially it is running off battery full time.

Several consumer level double conversion UPS's are being offered now for as low as $250.. this one would be a good example that would drive even the most powerful workstation, monitors, and printer.. and it's $535.. Expensive, but much cheaper than even a year ago. Just type "double conversion UPS" in the Amazon search bar and you'll see there's a much better choice than there was even recently.

[BuckarooBanzai]

Tywais & BangkokImages

Thank you, very good info. I will have to wait a few more price cycle reductions though before I can pick up one of those beauties.

[ETatBKK]

thanks guys, I think I need to do some homework before I go to the shop :-)

and, I think I need more budget than what is in my mind :-( my financial controller won't like this idea . . .

[BangkokImages]

thanks guys, I think I need to do some homework before I go to the shop :-)

and, I think I need more budget than what is in my mind :-( my financial controller won't like this idea . . .

Yes, it's one of those areas where we almost always end up spending more than we anticipated.

Some more information:

UPS's just don't protect from major damage. They also protect from transient type issues which rear their ugly heads as 'glitches' or occasional blue screens, or hard to identify problems. We've all probably had a system like this, it would fail, blue screen, or whatever.. not all the time, but sometimes, some days worse than others.. and we'd try reinstalling Windows, new drivers, maybe a new component or two.. but the issues persisted. This type of system is often the result of transient power damage issues, not powerful enough to actually take the machine down, but just powerful enough to cause these kinds of issues.

Since using UPS's I have never had that kind of machine again. Suddenly they're all very reliable and give me no problems.

Also.. the quality of components can have a significant effect if damage is causes or not. Quality components most often have built in higher tolerances for voltage fluctuations, filters, and other protections. This goes for all components, but where it really shows is with the power supplies. If you read the specs on power supplies you'll find most operate great at exactly 220vac. (or whatever they're designed to operate at) But when you get to 210vac only half are still working great, the other half are putting out dirty power. By 200vac you've lost all but a few. And so on up/down the voltage scale..

An IT manager who knows his equipment runs on a good solid UPS supply.. knows he can often save money (short term) by buying lower spec power supplies.

Knowing what I know about electronics.. which is an accumulation of almost 30 months, 10 hours per day, 5-6 days a week, of electronics instruction, a bunch of years working on the stuff, and a few years teaching the same.. I will not plug any computer I want to count on in the future.. into anything but a quality UPS. Being in Thailand makes it worse because the power fluctuates wildly, we often have single phase power, and the power goes on/off quite often. As bad as it is, some areas in the states are worse. These areas have a lot of lightening. You guys would laugh if I told you the extremes we'd go to protecting our amateur radios from lightening strikes. Everything from acre size ground arrays, 16-32 foot grounding rods, thick copper bars, arrestors, and much more.. A power hit can take out an entire room of gear, but at least we know it should be replaced. The small problems like I described above are much worse, because it's hard to know what it is, and since it still kinda works we're reluctant to spend money to replace it..

And do keep in mind.. a UPS is only as good as the electric grid its plugged into. Read the instructions to check for ground faults and the such. A good ground is needed for the UPS to do its job.

I hope some of this stuff is useful..

[ETatBKK]

thanks guys, I think I need to do some homework before I go to the shop :-)

and, I think I need more budget than what is in my mind :-( my financial controller won't like this idea . . .

Yes, it's one of those areas where we almost always end up spending more than we anticipated.

Some more information:

UPS's just don't protect from major damage. They also protect from transient type issues which rear their ugly heads as 'glitches' or occasional blue screens, or hard to identify problems. We've all probably had a system like this, it would fail, blue screen, or whatever.. not all the time, but sometimes, some days worse than others.. and we'd try reinstalling Windows, new drivers, maybe a new component or two.. but the issues persisted. This type of system is often the result of transient power damage issues, not powerful enough to actually take the machine down, but just powerful enough to cause these kinds of issues.

Since using UPS's I have never had that kind of machine again. Suddenly they're all very reliable and give me no problems.

Also.. the quality of components can have a significant effect if damage is causes or not. Quality components most often have built in higher tolerances for voltage fluctuations, filters, and other protections. This goes for all components, but where it really shows is with the power supplies. If you read the specs on power supplies you'll find most operate great at exactly 220vac. (or whatever they're designed to operate at) But when you get to 210vac only half are still working great, the other half are putting out dirty power. By 200vac you've lost all but a few. And so on up/down the voltage scale..

An IT manager who knows his equipment runs on a good solid UPS supply.. knows he can often save money (short term) by buying lower spec power supplies.

Knowing what I know about electronics.. which is an accumulation of almost 30 months, 10 hours per day, 5-6 days a week, of electronics instruction, a bunch of years working on the stuff, and a few years teaching the same.. I will not plug any computer I want to count on in the future.. into anything but a quality UPS. Being in Thailand makes it worse because the power fluctuates wildly, we often have single phase power, and the power goes on/off quite often. As bad as it is, some areas in the states are worse. These areas have a lot of lightening. You guys would laugh if I told you the extremes we'd go to protecting our amateur radios from lightening strikes. Everything from acre size ground arrays, 16-32 foot grounding rods, thick copper bars, arrestors, and much more.. A power hit can take out an entire room of gear, but at least we know it should be replaced. The small problems like I described above are much worse, because it's hard to know what it is, and since it still kinda works we're reluctant to spend money to replace it..

And do keep in mind.. a UPS is only as good as the electric grid its plugged into. Read the instructions to check for ground faults and the such. A good ground is needed for the UPS to do its job.

I hope some of this stuff is useful..

Thanks, Bangkokimage !

I know the brownout actually makes a lot of hidden damage, that is something I complain most here. back to my initial need - my work at home is not time critical ( and I alway make save ) and I could afford re-work in case of power outage; but my equipment and data are more critical, and are vulnerable to power surge and brownout.

couple of good UPS ( APS smart RT ) are costing half way of a surge protected voltage regulator for the entire house. I still need to check further and make a pos and cons comparison, including money as well :-)

[oakweb]

UPS's are a must for living in Thailand. I use them on my valuable electronics, except TV's. Bose Iphone Player, Water Filter, Electric Garage Door Opener. On the few things I don't have plugged into them in my house, they have fried. I lost a printer a few years back from plugging directly into the wall, that sucked.

Anything you value electronically I suggest plugging it into a UPS if you can stand it. You might want to get one with a mute button. My house gets very annoying with all the UPS's and beeeeeeps when there are black outs.

As far as the brand goes, personally I'm not that partial. I've had good luck with the Chinese ones as long as they are physically made well. All the batteries die after about 1.5-2 years of use. I don't bother with the software installations or serial hook ups for auto shutdown. I was a retailer of APC's in the past, it's a great brand but a battery is a battery when it comes inside from what I have seen. You can get 2 cheap UPS's for the price of one APC in some cases.

[BangkokImages]

UPS's are a must for living in Thailand. I use them on my valuable electronics, except TV's. Bose Iphone Player, Water Filter, Electric Garage Door Opener. On the few things I don't have plugged into them in my house, they have fried. I lost a printer a few years back from plugging directly into the wall, that sucked.

Anything you value electronically I suggest plugging it into a UPS if you can stand it. You might want to get one with a mute button. My house gets very annoying with all the UPS's and beeeeeeps when there are black outs.

As far as the brand goes, personally I'm not that partial. I've had good luck with the Chinese ones as long as they are physically made well. All the batteries die after about 1.5-2 years of use. I don't bother with the software installations or serial hook ups for auto shutdown. I was a retailer of APC's in the past, it's a great brand but a battery is a battery when it comes inside from what I have seen. You can get 2 cheap UPS's for the price of one APC in some cases.

Any chance your power is single phase? You get a lot more damage that way. One housing complex I'm familiar with in Hua Hin where the cheapest home is 25m, only has single phase. Friends who live there ended up losing their fancy double door fridge (had a CPU), microwave, tv, etc.. and ended up moving because they couldn't keep their appliance and electronics alive. The builder never advertised it was single phase.. three phase was still several years out. Its this way in most rural areas.

But I don't agree all batteries are the same or all UPS's are the same. Everyone here knows the difference between an original battery for their mobile phone and how long it lasts, and a cheap replacement from Pantip.. Batteries are made to different standards and you normally get what you pay for. UPS's are the same. The supporting circuitry is key. It's not only that they'll switch you over to the battery, but how fast it will switch you over before damage is done. And if they're providing a full sine wave (critical for quality power) or not.. I'd agree, in most cases, a cheap UPS is better than nothing.. but a cheap UPS is a far cry from a quality UPS.

[oakweb]

Here's what I have in my house, that seems to work just fine:

Leonics QA

Cyber Power

APC ES-500 - I use this on my backup drives

Powermatic - got a couple of larger ones of this brand, nice digital display

Syndome - a couple of their better line ones and one cheap version that I use on a couple of my routers

"Blackboom" Zircons- 3 of these from Office Depot

Never have had a problem yet, my drives are error free and no computers lost yet

But I agree, if you don't want to risk it go with the more expensive type. For me, I'm not so worried if I loose a motherboard or whatever I'll just

slap another one in. Data however I don't take a chance on and backup often, and off site.

as I wrote this my UPS chirrped.. hmmmmm

[BangkokImages]

Here's what I have in my house, that seems to work just fine:

Leonics QA

Cyber Power

APC ES-500 - I use this on my backup drives

Powermatic - got a couple of larger ones of this brand, nice digital display

Syndome - a couple of their better line ones and one cheap version that I use on a couple of my routers

"Blackboom" Zircons- 3 of these from Office Depot

Never have had a problem yet, my drives are error free and no computers lost yet

But I agree, if you don't want to risk it go with the more expensive type. For me, I'm not so worried if I loose a motherboard or whatever I'll just

slap another one in. Data however I don't take a chance on and backup often, and off site.

as I wrote this my UPS chirrped.. hmmmmm

Man.. you really do have a lot of UPS devices.. I have 4-5 in use at any one time, but all for computer equipment.

I think matching your UPS 'quality' to your backup needs helps prevent issues. For instance, I'm sure your electric door opener has a much lower threshold for transient spike damage than a computer would.. so it would be appropriate to use a lower end UPS for that need. But when we're mostly talking about protecting computers and related equipment.. I'd study carefully how fast each device reacts before settling on either. I wouldn't assume APC is the best (it probably is), I'd study their ratings and google a few independent reviews where reaction time was tested/measured. They vary in quality quite a bit, but our needs vary quite a bit.. so targeted selection and placement with an eye towards value is a good thing..

Good luck keeping everything from chirping..

[ETatBKK]

thanks for the good info !!

that exactly my point - I don't want to bring in a problem that fixes another problems. an army of UPS definitely could 'buy safe' but I need to maintain this army too - especially their batteries.

I have a similar situation like OAKWEB - electronics everywhere, from computer gadgets to fridge with a CPU. surge and brownout will burn these stuffs, touch wood. setting up multiple UPS to points of need is a straightforward solution, but UPS all over the place.

3-phase supply, provides more technical options to stablise the voltage, but not the surge and the brownout, and it is d expensive here.

I came across huge APC server room UPS, it is way out of my budget :-) I am considering any in-between solution ?

yeah, when I walk around IT malls, I start to feel uncomfortably the amount of UPS in the market :-)

[powderpuff]

Powercom King

[BangkokImages]

3-phase supply, provides more technical options to stablise the voltage, but not the surge and the brownout, and it is d expensive here.

Single phase power is can be likened to a telephone party line. Everyone is on the same line, and the more people who use it, the less fast/power/communication is available over it.

In single phase areas, as people come home and use more electricity, the voltage drops.. often to the point where certain devices won't work and it causes damage to those that do. This is a brownout.

Brownout can and does occur with 3 phase.. but it's relatively rare and a function of the local sub station not being properly regulated more than a consumer use issue like single phase.

So, with 3 phase you get a much more stable trouble free supply of AC. This should be the first thing you aim for. Yes its expensive, but its the single most effective thing you can do to protect your electronics.

3 phase isn't perfect.. it surges, it can brownout, it can go on/off.. but its the right starting point.

Other options would include moving your entire house onto it's own grid. People who use alternative power do this. They run their entire house off batteries and the solar panels and the local elec if needed, keeps the batteries charged. Of course this depends on how they're set up, but you can definitely set up and entire house to run from batteries.. which then acts like a UPS.

If you already have 3 phase.. there are whole house surge protectors the electric companies often rent out in troubled areas. You can also buy these separately. Installation is usually simple, they plug in-line with your meter. Pull the meter, plug in the protector, plug the meter into it.. done.

[ETatBKK]

So, with 3 phase you get a much more stable trouble free supply of AC. This should be the first thing you aim for. Yes its expensive, but its the single most effective thing you can do to protect your electronics.

3 phase isn't perfect.. it surges, it can brownout, it can go on/off.. but its the right starting point.

If you already have 3 phase.. there are whole house surge protectors the electric companies often rent out in troubled areas. You can also buy these separately. Installation is usually simple, they plug in-line with your meter. Pull the meter, plug in the protector, plug the meter into it.. done.

Other options would include moving your entire house onto it's own grid. People who use alternative power do this. They run their entire house off batteries and the solar panels and the local elec if needed, keeps the batteries charged. Of course this depends on how they're set up, but you can definitely set up and entire house to run from batteries.. which then acts like a UPS.

ah . . . let me check again the 3-phase installation and the running cost. I learnt that the MEA charge the consumption units by 3 times. that's what I hesitated !

running an entire house behind a battery, I know some people do this in Bangkok ( from my home automation supplier ). but not sure how effective and efficient of this setup. be frank, I don't mind to maintain one big battery, rather then 8 small ones :-)