Thai gov. to tax (remitted) income from abroad for tax residents starting 2024 - Part II

[bolobolo]

HSBC International

Is this bank any good?

I don't have a work permit in Thailand any more but i have a Thai bank account.

Can I open an account?

I was reading on the website about offshore accounts. These can be used if you don't trust your Thai bank or in case you lose your work visa. Does anyone have any experience with this offshore account and is it good to transfer money to UK? I don't have a UK HSBC Account. Can I open an offshore HSBC account in Thailand easily?

thanks

Edited March 12, 2011 by bolobolo

[Phil Conners]

Not Pattaya-related, moved ...

[Soutpeel]

What nationality are you ?.....if American..highly unlikely HSBC opr any other reputable bank will open an offshore account for you.

Reading you want to send money to the UK, assume you are from the UK ?

Everyone has their personal preferences, but personally I wouldnt bother with HSBC these days, had a premier account with them for years and the service went down hill

Moved over to Citi bank in Singapore and a lot happier with service received to date

What exactly are you trying to get out of the offshore account, personally I would hold the account outside of Thailand..ie Singapore or Hong Kong

[wannascuba]

I am interested in doing the same as the OP. I am curious as to why you said "if American..highly unlikely HSBC opr any other reputable bank will open an offshore account for you."??

Thx,

WS

[PattayaParent]

Where are you? I'm confused

If you're in Thailand and want to open an account offshore in another country then there was a thread not so long ago saying that it's not possible, in HSBC International UK at least.

If you're in Thailand and want to open an account in Thailand, go see HSBC on Rama IV.

To open an offshore account in UK and not have to pay monthly charges you need to deposit GBP 60,000 at least, don't know about other countries requirements.

[chainarong]

The net is closing in on off shore stuff, I would be careful , as your country of origin , could pull the rug from under your feet, HK is no longer off shore and has signed agreements to allow foreign Governments to check bank accounts, also, so has Singapore.

[Soutpeel]

I am interested in doing the same as the OP. I am curious as to why you said "if American..highly unlikely HSBC opr any other reputable bank will open an offshore account for you."??

Thx,

WS

Thank your IRS, most reputable banbks will generally not touch a US citizen for an offshore account because of the additional possible hassles/paper work on their part, this goes back many years now, as even when I opened an offshore account with Citi in Singapore literally first question was whether I was a US citizen...

[Soutpeel]

The net is closing in on off shore stuff, I would be careful , as your country of origin , could pull the rug from under your feet, HK is no longer off shore and has signed agreements to allow foreign Governments to check bank accounts, also, so has Singapore.

Not quite....Both Singapore and Hong kong have agreed to co-operate with foreign goverments to provide specific information against specific accounts or persons of interest, this doesnt mean your goverment is automatically forwarded all account details or have unhindered access to accounts to snoop around in.

[phukettrader]

I've just opened an offshore account with HSBC (Jersey) last month and can confirm that it IS now possible for residents of Thailand to do this (I was the person that started the previous thread to which "pattayaparent" is referring).

So far, I can report that they have done everything that I have asked them to do correctly and in a timely manner.

If you want investments as well as simply a Bank Account, you have to sign a consent form allowing one of their Jersey staff (based on Hong Kong) to give you advice etc. "outside Thailand" as they are not allowed to conduct this type of business in Thailand. I actually had my meeting with the HSBC guy in a Bangkok Hotel about 500 meters from the HSBC building, as he is not allowed to conduct any business in their official premises!!

As well as the offshore account in Jersey, you can also open GBP, USD, THB accounts with HSBC Thailand. If you are a Premier customer (£60,000 minimum relationship balance required), you can transfer money between the two (or any other HSBC account) for free. Currency conversion charges are also cheaper. You can open a resident account (same as standard Thai Bangkok/Kasikorn bank account), or a non-resident account which may have certain advantages if you regularly transfer money to and from Thailand.

Check out their websites

www.offshore.hsbc.com and http://www.hsbc.co.th/1/2/home-en

[asiawatcher]

I set up with HSBC last year and after 10 years of Thai banks BS, it is a godsend. Individually is a little difficult (minimum is USD5,000) but setting up a BVI through a HK accountant - both accounts were opened easily - one commercial and the other personal. Now sitting at my computer anywhere - HSBC is accessible and can do everything the Thai banks cannot. Best move I ever made. Tax is zero, no accounts to report and fees for the BVI only $700 a year for my accountant to renew including the BVI fees. No contest.

[bolobolo]

Just to clear things

-Im british

-I no longer have a UK account

-I want to pay bills etc in UK

-I dont want to return to UK

-I have a thai Krugsi bank account

-I thought an offshore account would be easier to pay uk bill and more secure than a thai bank account

-I also may find work in an other country in asia

CAn I use my Bank of Ayudhya visa debit card in any country? I doubt that somehow.

thanks

[PattayaParent]

You can set up a UK offshore account (IOM, CI) while living in Thailand but I wouldn't recommend HSBC for that if all you want is to pay bills, you can find banks with 3,000 Quids minimum balance requirements.

My TMB ATM card works outside Thailand, I think all the Thai bank cards do but check with your bank as you may have to activaet it for overseas use?

[hermespan]

Bad experiences with offshore banks

Or rather governments such as the US (which is not even my citizenship)

First why bank offshore?

practical: I don't trust keeping my money in a bank in the country of my citizenship or residence partly because they are in bed with the Americans. And I speak from experience. Governments steal. And sometimes if they have questions they steal first and ask you to prove your innocence. I also never want to be vulnerable to extortion by the state, any state - or at least if I have to be to spread the risk around

political: I figure what I do with my own money is the business of no government on earth. It is constant struggle to put this libertarian principle into practical action. And it is getting worse.

It used to be, one could open a foreign bank account with token amounts and a photocopy of your passport. I did it numerous times with foreign banks. Skip to the end for my current situation - maybe others are in the same boat.

My first experience was with Credit Suisse in Zurich. Although it actually cost me money (no interest) I thought it was cool how they sent statements without a return address. No problem to open or maintain in the early 1980s. Just not great value, unless you wanted to hide big sums of money from the tax man - I have never been rich - I did it out of principle, not any need to hide anything.

My second experience was with with Lloyds of UK with their Isle of Mann offshore branch. I heard about it in a financial newsletter from a friend living in Thailand. It was the late eighties and it cost me only $50 to open a US dollar account. At first it was cool. Then they started screwing up and doing things like sending my new card to Havana when I specifically said Dominican Republic. And periodically they would freeze my account due to 'unusual activity' which to them meant getting modest cash advances several times in a week in several countries. Their staff must lead extremely boring lives and think there is something suspicious about travelling a lot! But sometime in the 90s things got hairy. I got a letter that said that some US department of meddling has requested that they hand over information on their account holders who were American citizens (residents too maybe). Naturally, Lloyds told the US to bugger off. So the US closed all cheque-cashing privileges on our cheques handled by Chase Manhattan in NYC I think it was. So, the beginning of the end.

Keep in mind I never had more than 10K in the bank, sometimes it was only a few hundred dollars. But I paid my monthly fees (reasonable) and didn't do anything weird. Then one day I received a letter. I think it was 2006 or 08, that I had 'irregular income' and that they were closing my ATM debit card. What the f? My various jobs were as a freelance ESL teacher, executive assistant, & *in the past* publisher (controversial content that gave the finger to various governments and law enforcements agencies, but reporting facts and politically incorrect opinions is not yet illegal). I was a PT hobo on the edge who occasionally had entirely legitimate deposits of 3-10K, out of the blue for legal contract work, but this up and down income was considered 'irregular' by Lloyds and they closed the very purpose of my account - international access. So, I closed my account by withdrawing all my money in the brief period they gave me.

My third experience was with some Phiippines bank in Angeles. Easy, but useless out of the country. 1990s

My fourth experience was with Standard and Chartered in Singapore in the early 2000s. I was told that officially one could not open a bank account without having legal residency. Well, I kept going around to different branches until one said yes. So, this is NOT a law, it is a discretionary thing, i.e. bull. But I let the account close due to inactivity. Anyway the fees were rather high. Likewise opening a bank account in Bangkok. 'We have to know our clients' I was told, I could not open an account. "I have 10,000 to deposit today" to which the response was 'We will come to your hotel today'. So it's flexible.

My fifth experience was with ANZ-Royal in Cambodia. Several years ago I opened am account when I was working in Phnom Penh. All it took was a copy of my passport the telephone number of my employer and a small amount of money. Oh, and when I later applied for an internationally useable VISA debit card there was a $100 fee. I hear now that they require a letter from one's employer. I do not like ANZ. they have sticky fingers (slow on wire transfers) and I know for a fact that other Cambodian banks offer better deals. But for the moment it's what I have. they accept wires in from my employers and patrons in Europe and USA, from locals depositing cash who are not listed on my account and in general they are cool (though I think they should have offered me a premium rate for $10,000 worth of mint sweet-smelling US dollars).

My situation is about to change. I have an inheritance coming in. On political principle I am tempted to make it a cause celebre - it's my money, if I want to carry over 100K in cash that's my right. I have the documentation. I will declare it if required by law. But it's not illegal to carry cash, only a hassle perhaps of questions. But mostly I just know that it'll be hassle to try to open accounts with cash over 10K even though this is an obsolete amount, based on what 1980? They have never raised it despite inflation in fiat currencies! So, I will wire it out to keep problems less.

Now, the challenge is where are the best value offshore bank accounts? I am not going to pay $3000 to some intermediary for an 'introduction' to some Latvian or Russian bank. I earned my money or inherited it legally and shouldn't have to beg to keep it for me. It's not like they aren't going to invest it and profit from my money. I am looking for a country and a bank that meets a laundry list, which I will post in another message.

My inkling is that today it is better to not open a bank account in tax havens. They are too high profile and their minimums are ridiculously high. Better to find normal but smallish banks in normal countries - not HSBC in Cayman Islands.

I would like to hear from others about banks that are easy, fast and require no life history to open.

[euca]

What nationality are you ?.....if American..highly unlikely HSBC opr any other reputable bank will open an offshore account for you.

Reading you want to send money to the UK, assume you are from the UK ?

Everyone has their personal preferences, but personally I wouldnt bother with HSBC these days, had a premier account with them for years and the service went down hill

Moved over to Citi bank in Singapore and a lot happier with service received to date

What exactly are you trying to get out of the offshore account, personally I would hold the account outside of Thailand..ie Singapore or Hong Kong

Should we bank with hsbc? No, I had the same experience as Soutpeel only 'went downhill' is an understatement. They became an embarrassment after a while; couldn't get the simplest things right. Then, when they made a costly cock-up they denied it all & offered derisory compensation. Bank Ombudsman [good outfit] found for me but hsbc were still resistant to settlement & he had to force it. Only got back 67% of what their ineptitude cost me, though. I'd avoid them like the plague - only difference is that you may never catch the plague while if you touch hsbc tears will surely follow. Other UK banks; why shackle yourself to any of those speyed old bags. There are some good ideas above which I shall examine with care. Hermespan is well worth a read.

[PattayaParent]

<snip>

I would like to hear from others about banks that are easy, fast and require no life history to open.

I'm using Standard Bank Isle of Man (IOM) at the moment for current accounts in GBP and USD.

For savings look at some of the UK building societies offshore in IOM.

Avoid Alliance & Leicester though if you don't want to fill in paperwork.

[Naam]

I would like to hear from others about banks that are easy, fast and require no life history to open.

if you are looking for a reputable bank in a clear-cut jurisdiction submitting your "life history" has become mandatory when initially depositing a substantial amount even by transfer. things have changed during the last decade, the good old times are gone when a Swiss bank or a bank in Luxembourg used to transfer a million or more stating "from one of our clients".

in certain ways the system has become quite ridiculous. example: a transfer of USD from a bank in Singapore to another bank in Singapore (both banks might be located in the same building!) is routed via New York and requires full names of the transferring party as well as of the beneficiary. all EUR transfers are routed via Frankfurt, Germany, GBP via London where the same conditions apply. a German tax evader who considers Switzerland, Liechtenstein or Luxembourg not safe any more for his black money or wants to avoid the EU tax on interest income and therefore transfers his EURos to Hong Kong or Singapore might experience a rough awakening when (in due course) half a dozen taxmen are deployed at his front and back entrance and one of them rings his bell at 06.00 hrs.

as far as fees are concerned the old "you get what you pay for" applies. the banksters do not provide free lunches, they never did. on the other hand nobody in his right mind should expect first class service when paying for economy.

[ukrules]

You can set up a UK offshore account (IOM, CI) while living in Thailand but I wouldn't recommend HSBC for that if all you want is to pay bills, you can find banks with 3,000 Quids minimum balance requirements.

Where can you open an account with only a £3000 initial payment, something like that would suit me for my day to day living if I can receive wires from the US and send wires to the UK and Europe ?

HSBC are talking about minimum 'relationship balances' whatever they are of £25,000. I would not be depositing more than about £4000-£5000 initially.

[PattayaParent]

You can set up a UK offshore account (IOM, CI) while living in Thailand but I wouldn't recommend HSBC for that if all you want is to pay bills, you can find banks with 3,000 Quids minimum balance requirements.

Where can you open an account with only a £3000 initial payment, something like that would suit me for my day to day living if I can receive wires from the US and send wires to the UK and Europe ?

HSBC are talking about minimum 'relationship balances' whatever they are of £25,000. I would not be depositing more than about £4000-£5000 initially.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/450525-hsbc-international/page__view__findpost__p__4299411 They will issue ATM/Visa Debit card but no credit card.

look also at Clydsedale Bank, same as Standard,

and Co-op Bank IOM who will issue a credit card also I think.

[ukrules]

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/450525-hsbc-international/page__view__findpost__p__4299411 They will issue ATM/Visa Debit card but no credit card.

look also at Clydsedale Bank, same as Standard,

and Co-op Bank IOM who will issue a credit card also I think.

Thanks, I'll take a look !

[hermespan]

Where NOT to bank if you're a 'little guy'

HSBC Jersey. Minimum balance 25,000 POUNDS. Bugger off!

My experience has been you can get much better value by showing up passport in hand with $5000 (or even $500) at some ordinary bank in an ordinary country and open an ordinary account. Who needs tax haven jurisdictions unless you are having major tax issues. The little guy like me can get along fine without them.

[Naam]

Where NOT to bank if you're a 'little guy'

HSBC Jersey. Minimum balance 25,000 POUNDS. Bugger off!

My experience has been you can get much better value by showing up passport in hand with $5000 (or even $500) at some ordinary bank in an ordinary country and open an ordinary account. Who needs tax haven jurisdictions unless you are having major tax issues. The little guy like me can get along fine without them.

right you are... notwithstanding the fact that a lot of people have no idea what an "offshore account" is and that is does not have to be in a tax haven.

as far as "bugger off!" is concerned. try a multinational bank in Singapore and see the disgust in the banker's face when you tell him you want to open an account and shift assets with a total value of less than 2 million dollars. a couple of them recently raised their minimum to 5 million! and if you want to commit the perfect murder of a bankster (by causing a heart attack) then walk into a swiss bank in Singapore, present your passport and say in a loud voice "i want to open an account with an initial deposit of 5,000 dollars. where do i sign?" in rare cases you might get a sympathetic smile.

[PattayaParent]

Where NOT to bank if you're a 'little guy'

HSBC Jersey. Minimum balance 25,000 POUNDS. Bugger off!

My experience has been you can get much better value by showing up passport in hand with $5000 (or even $500) at some ordinary bank in an ordinary country and open an ordinary account. Who needs tax haven jurisdictions unless you are having major tax issues. The little guy like me can get along fine without them.

Not absolutely correct, that's the 'relationship balance'

If you have less than that they charge you an exhorbitant monthly fee.

In fact even if you have more than that but are not a Premier customer (requiring over 60,000 Quids) they still charge you a monthly fee.

That's why I left them last year when they introduced this scam.

Edited March 25, 2011 by PattayaParent

[hermespan]

" a lot of people have no idea what an "offshore account" is and that is does not have to be in a tax haven."

How I use the terms: 'offshore' meaning anywhere foreign to where your passport/residency is, but more often typically in a tax haven. I prefer the word foreign because it has no innuendo of illicitness

I use 'tax haven' to mean anywhere where there is very low/no taxes (at least to nonresident bank account holders) and no tax treaty with USA and other Anglo countries. But these 'financial paradises' are becoming extinct.

"As far as "bugger off!" is concerned. try a multinational bank in Singapore and see the disgust in the banker's face when you tell him you want to open an account and shift assets with a total value of less than 2 million dollars. a couple of them recently raised their minimum to 5 million! "

A major bank in Singapore has a Chinese (yuan) account available but minimum balance is about US$38,000. I suppose my point is this: 25 years ago I opened accounts with $50. What happened? Banks aren't making enough profits? he said sarcastically. I noticed today while shopping for a local bank in an Anglo land that while their credit cards charge 15-23% +- they are offering .50 to 1.5% interest. FERGET IT! They want to use my money and give me virtually nothing in return (and charge me for the privelege) while simultaneously charging me ursurous (sp?) amounts for credit. Ain't fair. I'd boycott the banks if moving substantial amounts of money around the planet wasn't so difficult.

Anyone tried hundi/halwa? seems emminently practical to me. Wire transfers are hogwash. NOTHING gets moved, it's all accounting. The traditional international money moving systems of Hindus and Muslims of Asia make total sense to me. Merchant A in nation 1 is approached by person who needs to send cash to his sister in nation 2. Merchant A has a friend (merchant in his religious/ethnic/linguistic/industry with whom he has done business before, and so he take said person's $100 and charges him $10, marking it in his books that when another person goes into merchant B in nation 2 and asks *him* to do same it all comes out in the wash. Used to be done by fax, not email. My point is that no money goes anywhere. It's all simple book keeping. Governments complicated things (as did criminals, but you can bet most people using these community systems aren't)

[lemerou]

Interesting topic but i'm quite confused after reading all this.

Where can you open an offshore account wihout much hasttle if you're not a billionaire ?

I heard Hong Kong is a good place for this ?

Thanks for any input

Edited March 27, 2011 by lemerou

[Naam]

Anyone tried hundi/halwa? seems emminently practical to me. Wire transfers are hogwash. NOTHING gets moved, it's all accounting. The traditional international money moving systems of Hindus and Muslims of Asia make total sense to me. Merchant A in nation 1 is approached by person who needs to send cash to his sister in nation 2. Merchant A has a friend (merchant in his religious/ethnic/linguistic/industry with whom he has done business before, and so he take said person's $100 and charges him $10, marking it in his books that when another person goes into merchant B in nation 2 and asks *him* to do same it all comes out in the wash. Used to be done by fax, not email. My point is that no money goes anywhere. It's all simple book keeping. Governments complicated things (as did criminals, but you can bet most people using these community systems aren't)

*****

please enlighten me what you are trying to say. that "hawala" with 10% (bigger amounts 5%) cost is better than a wire transfer? that money doesn't go anywhere is a well known fact. but we still need wire transfers even though you call them "hogwash".

Edited March 27, 2011 by Naam

[hermespan]

You have enlightened me. I didn't realize hundi dealers charge 5-10%. I presumed that since the effort was less (less paperwork) the fee was also less. What I mean when I say that wire transfers are hogwash is that the fee is just accounting - no one is moving banknotes. And it is certainly disproportionate to the effort. I just learned that a bank in Cambodia charges 0.15% for incoming wire transfers. Consider a large amount and do the math! Last time I checked in 2006 the rate was $35!!! &lt;deleted&gt;? I presume that there is a labour cost in doing all the anti-money laundering paperwork and whatever else is standard for banking bookkeeping, but geez.... At this rate it is cheaper to fly (though not the ten trips it would take me to move it undeclared). It's as if there is a conspiracy between banks and governments to prevent us from moving our own property around the globe.