Thai Reds Mass In Bangkok To Mark Anniversary Of Protest

[jdinasia]

Can throw the billions that Thaksin threw at the 1,000,000 cows and the 1,000,000 rubber tree programs in the trash bin as well.

Disagree - all these projects had some positive outcome, however minimal (rather academic, I know). There is a call for these policies and, in a true democracy, these calls have to be looked at.

The question is whether the public benefits are greater than the public cost. Even the war on drugs had some positive effect (possibly up to 1,100 drug dealers removed from the market). It's the implementation that's the difference-maker. And the implementation of the war on drugs, the loans for farmers scheme, the free cows, the rubber trees were all not really well done, to make an understatement.

These were examples of populist programs that the Dems did not use (hence the "lock stock and barrel argument is a fallacy" The Dems tossed these programs in the trash bin (where they belonged)

[Buchholz]

begin removed ...

personally I feel that Thaksin has become increasingly sidelined by events, he is more a bogeyman that the yellow elite threaten us with.

Thaksin: A Continuing Menace

For a certain someone, there is nothing more important than being reinstalled back to power.

1.) Despite some remarks made by the red shirt leaders in the past, claiming that former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra is no longer relevant to their movement, the red shirts announced at their latest rally that they are still fighting for Thaksin. So it seems that the fugitive criminal is still using the red shirts for political purposes.

2.) Thaksin appeared at last Saturday’s red shirt rally via video conference, saying that he is currently living in an African country. The ex-premier also said that he has been living in exile for the past five years and would like a chance to return to Thailand to serve the Thai people once again.

Thaksin, whose assets were seized in a number of corruption cases, added that he would like to see Thai people decide their political future for themselves in the next general election. If his Pheu Thai Party is elected, he and his team will come back to Thailand. Thaksin told his supporters, “we must give the Pheu Thai Party a land slide victory in the next election so I can return to Thailand to solve the economic problems. I promise that I will make all Thai people rich within six months.”

Because of this, it is clear that both the red shirt movement and Pheu Thai Party are still subservient to Thaksin. They should have known that Thaksin is ineligible to compete in the election, whether as an MP or prime minister. With many outstanding criminal charges against him, he will certainly be arrested the moment he sets foot in Thailand.

Either way, voting for Pheu Thai does not mean that Thaksin will come back. Unless the Pheu Thai Party decides to exonerate the ex-premier from all his wrongdoings, including the reimbursement of 46 billion baht seized from him.

3.) If the Pheu Thai Party fails to win in the next election, it would be wearisome to see Thaksin supporters come back and continue to preach that Thailand is not a democratic country. Does the “democracy” that red shirts’ envision only have the Pheu Thai in power?

4.) It is also amusing to see Thaksin exchange quips with a young man, who asked the former prime minister on his social network website, “Why are you barking so much?”

Thaksin replied “nothing, I was only giving useful, moral information to those who are willing to listen.”

Who exactly is listening?

Taken from Guan Nam Hai Sai Column, Naewna Newspaper, Page 5, March 14, 2011

Translated and Rewritten by Kongkrai Maksrivorawan

Please note that the views expressed in our "Analysis" segment are translated from local newspaper articles and do not reflect the views of the Thai-ASEAN News Network.

-- Tan Network 2011-03-14

[ballpoint]

As further proof that NAP weren't with TRT at first, I offer this interview with Chalerm from 2000:

<snipped for brevity>

Look at the lists of Isaan MP's from the 1992 (both of them), 1995, 1996 and 2001 elections. Despite the NAP dropping from 125 seats in 1996 to only 36 in 2001, you'll see some remarkably similar names, they just moved to TRT. Although Thaksin didn't officially buy out the party until 2002, he had effectively already bought it much earlier by taking the majority of their MPs. I'll say it again for the slower members, and no amount of rewriting history to suit the red agenda can change the facts, the same corrupt names, and their proxies, have ruled over Isaan for the past few decades, at least as far back as I can find reliable records of MP names. They were the same before Thaksin, they were the same during the Thaksin years, they are the same now. The opportunists, like Newin and Banharn, are currently in the governing coalition (by proxy), just as they always seem to do, but the vast majority of the rest have traditionally aligned themselves against the Democrats and, since 2001, with the "red grouping" (TRT/PPP/PTP). The people that the red supporters here are supporting are the very ones that have been keeping the poor in the place they are in.

In reply to your post showing the reduction in poverty in the Northeast, the World Bank found in 2005 that that region had one of the fastest rates of economic growth globally. This growth trend began in the 1970's, rather a long shot to try and give Thaksin credit for that. If you look at real input into the economy by the government, the TRT spent about a third on the Northeast of what it spent on the north, central and southern regions.

Edited March 14, 2011 by ballpoint

[jayboy]

Can throw the billions that Thaksin threw at the 1,000,000 cows and the 1,000,000 rubber tree programs in the trash bin as well.

Disagree - all these projects had some positive outcome, however minimal (rather academic, I know). There is a call for these policies and, in a true democracy, these calls have to be looked at.

The question is whether the public benefits are greater than the public cost. Even the war on drugs had some positive effect (possibly up to 1,100 drug dealers removed from the market). It's the implementation that's the difference-maker. And the implementation of the war on drugs, the loans for farmers scheme, the free cows, the rubber trees were all not really well done, to make an understatement.

These were examples of populist programs that the Dems did not use (hence the "lock stock and barrel argument is a fallacy" The Dems tossed these programs in the trash bin (where they belonged)

The general policy was maintained and expanded.Of course quite sensibly some components which didn't make much sense were set aside.The angry and emotive way this is described "tossed into the trash bin where they belonged" betrays the rightist agenda of deep dislike of the Thaksin strategy the Democrat led government is copying.It's not really controversial in the outside world: it's simply politics.Yet because Thaksin was the instigator there will always be a section that writhes and foams with rage.

[jdinasia]

[

Look at the lists of Isaan MP's from the 1992 (both of them), 1995, 1996 and 2001 elections. Despite the NAP dropping from 125 seats in 1996 to only 36 in 2001, you'll see some remarkably similar names, they just moved to TRT. Although Thaksin didn't officially buy out the party until 2002, he had effectively already bought it much earlier by taking the majority of their MPs. I'll say it again for the slower members, and no amount of rewriting history to suit the red agenda can change the facts, the same corrupt names, and their proxies, have ruled over Isaan for the past few decades, at least as far back as I can find reliable records of MP names. They were the same before Thaksin, they were the same during the Thaksin years, they are the same now. The opportunists, like Newin and Banharn, are currently in the governing coalition (by proxy), just as they always seem to do, but the vast majority of the rest have traditionally aligned themselves against the Democrats and, since 2001, with the "red grouping" (TRT/PPP/PTP). The people that the red supporters here claim to be against are the very ones that have been keeping the poor in the place they are in.

In reply to your post showing the reduction in poverty in the Northeast, the World Bank found in 2005 that that region had one of the fastest rates of economic growth globally. This growth trend began in the 1970's, rather a long shot to try and give Thaksin credit for that. If you look at real input into the economy by the government, the TRT spent about a third on the Northeast of what it spent on the north, central and southern regions.

To the point and accurate.

The issue for the next elections will be where do the local political machines line up? In 2007 some smaller parties that stated they would not align themselves with the current Thaksin proxy party (then PPP) did exactly that. I have no doubt that those same people (or their proxies) will be elected in their constituencies this year.

The same goes for Newin, banned with the rest of TRT, friends of Newin faction as part of PPP, Friends of Newin become BJT after PPP is disbanded for electoral fraud. Newin's BJT joins the current coalition government (amid cries of "traitor" from the reds), In by elections BJT sweeps their constituency (ostensibly held by PPP in the last elections)

It is the local political machines that matter. They stay in place over the generations. Politics in Thailand is a dirty business no matter your party/color etc.

[jdinasia]

Not "foaming with rage" or any of the other personal ad hominems you used to describe me jayboy. In fact that post wasn't about Thaksin it was about policies that were populist that were trash from the beginning. The post was evidence that, contrary to your claim that the Dems took up all of Thaksin's populist policies, they in fact threw many in the bin where they belonged.

Not angry Not emotive Not given to ad hominem attacks when confronted by facts that don't fit my personal agenda

[ballpoint]

thank you for the history lesson, might I suggest it has about the same relevance as judging present day Germans or Japanese by the events of WW2. History is about the past, it may or may not have influence on the present.

With the rapid growth in social communications people are becoming more aware, less easy to manipulate by lies and propaganda.

Additionally I did not mention Isaan, I have not ever been there and so would not dream of commenting on how they think or behave. I comment from my own experiences, two years spent living in Bangkok in the Banglampoo area, then the last 6 years living in a poor suburban village in northjeast Nonthaburi province.

So my premise is not false but equally neither is yours, we are, I presume, in different parts of Thailand where different situations apply. Indeed this makes the point that the Red movement is not a monolithic Thaksin adoring brainless mob, it is actually a collection of many different groups w3ith many different ideals, yet held together by one common objective, to improve their lives and that of their families.

My village is neither Red nor Yellow, they dislike Thaksin and Abhisit in equal measure, like me they are Orange, try to buy their vote and you would end up with a black eye or worse. This is the reality I live amongst, not Isaan.

Like so many of my fellows (what a condescending phrase), I judge by my friends and neighbours.

You might suggest that, but you would be wrong to say it has no relevance to what's happening today. To take your WW2 analogy, we're not judging present day Germans by what Hitler did, we're judging Hitler by what Hitler did. The same people involved in the machinations of the 1992 crisis, the same people who have traditionally controlled much of Isaan, are the same people we're talking about now, in 2011. Yes, I'm talking about Isaan because that is what I know, and more importantly, that is where many posters here believe the residents have the biggest complaints. I speak from over two decades of experience living in Thailand, the majority of that in a small Buri Ram village. Prem was PM when I first came here. I've lost track of the number of PM's and different political parties that have risen and fallen since then. The only constant is the same names continually popping up on the MP lists. Rural Thailand traditionally votes for the name, not the party. A fact brilliantly exploited by Thaksin (yes, I will give him credit for that, although it was probably under Potjamon's guidance) when he bought out many of those names in order to get the votes.

[anterian]

thank you for the history lesson, might I suggest it has about the same relevance as judging present day Germans or Japanese by the events of WW2. History is about the past, it may or may not have influence on the present.

With the rapid growth in social communications people are becoming more aware, less easy to manipulate by lies and propaganda.

Additionally I did not mention Isaan, I have not ever been there and so would not dream of commenting on how they think or behave. I comment from my own experiences, two years spent living in Bangkok in the Banglampoo area, then the last 6 years living in a poor suburban village in northjeast Nonthaburi province.

So my premise is not false but equally neither is yours, we are, I presume, in different parts of Thailand where different situations apply. Indeed this makes the point that the Red movement is not a monolithic Thaksin adoring brainless mob, it is actually a collection of many different groups w3ith many different ideals, yet held together by one common objective, to improve their lives and that of their families.

My village is neither Red nor Yellow, they dislike Thaksin and Abhisit in equal measure, like me they are Orange, try to buy their vote and you would end up with a black eye or worse. This is the reality I live amongst, not Isaan.

Like so many of my fellows (what a condescending phrase), I judge by my friends and neighbours.

You might suggest that, but you would be wrong to say it has no relevance to what's happening today. To take your WW2 analogy, we're not judging present day Germans by what Hitler did, we're judging Hitler by what Hitler did. The same people involved in the machinations of the 1992 crisis, the same people who have traditionally controlled much of Isaan, are the same people we're talking about now, in 2011. Yes, I'm talking about Isaan because that is what I know, and more importantly, that is where many posters here believe the residents have the biggest complaints. I speak from over two decades of experience living in Thailand, the majority of that in a small Buri Ram village. Prem was PM when I first came here. I've lost track of the number of PM's and different political parties that have risen and fallen since then. The only constant is the same names continually popping up on the MP lists. Rural Thailand traditionally votes for the name, not the party. A fact brilliantly exploited by Thaksin (yes, I will give him credit for that, although it was probably under Potjamon's guidance) when he bought out many of those names in order to get the votes.

I think we are talking chalk and cheese. You might be quite correct in your assessment of Isaan politics. I live in a poor suburban village, very different. When I first came here it was openly yellow, blind support on the whole. Now it is still anti Thaksin but much more Red in its sentiments. I have watched the local political climate change, particularly since Abhisit became PM.

[Buchholz]

When I first came here it was openly yellow, blind support on the whole. Now it is still anti Thaksin but much more Red in its sentiments.

Post # 122

Thaksin = Red Shirts

Just 2 days ago:

Edited March 14, 2011 by Buchholz

[anterian]

When I first came here it was openly yellow, blind support on the whole. Now it is still anti Thaksin but much more Red in its sentiments.

Post # 122

Thaksin = Red Shirts

Just 2 days ago:

One think I learnt years ago is never to argue with someone who believes they have cornered the market on truth

[Buchholz]

When I first came here it was openly yellow, blind support on the whole. Now it is still anti Thaksin but much more Red in its sentiments.

Post # 122

Thaksin = Red Shirts

Just 2 days ago:

One think I learnt years ago is never to argue with someone who believes they have cornered the market on truth

Anything you disagree with in the editorial equating the two in Post # 122?

Meanwhile, another version of the truth...

[jayboy]

Not "foaming with rage" or any of the other personal ad hominems you used to describe me jayboy. In fact that post wasn't about Thaksin it was about policies that were populist that were trash from the beginning. The post was evidence that, contrary to your claim that the Dems took up all of Thaksin's populist policies, they in fact threw many in the bin where they belonged.

Not angry Not emotive Not given to ad hominem attacks when confronted by facts that don't fit my personal agenda

The bulk of the policy was copied and expanded.

[jdinasia]

Actually that's not the point.One can have a rational discussion about how well the North and North East did under Thaksin's policies.The position is complicated by the fact the current government has not only adopted lock stock and barrel but also expanded those "populist policies."

The point is I think rather that under Thaksin the rural majority was "politicised" and given dignity , made to feel their views were important.This clearly struck a chord after decades of disrespect or "haut en bas" patronising.Again one can have a discussion about Thaksin's motives but whatever one believes he changed Thailand forever.

The bulk of the policy was copied and expanded.

Your correction to your original and patently incorrect claim is noted. I would agree that many of Thaksin's populist policies have been kept (pretty hard to take universal healthcare away from a population once it is given to them!) and improved upon, but many many of his populist policies were garbage from the outset and they were thrown in the bin where they belonged. The rest of your first post quoted above is also arguable. Thaksin did change things, possibly forever, and mostly for his personal benefit and to the detriment of Thailand imho.

[Buchholz]

We start with:

lock stock and barrel

but now, it gets revised downward to:

The bulk

If you continue revising downward and when you get down to something like "some" or "a few"... you'll be much accurate.

.

Edited March 14, 2011 by Buchholz

[bangon04]

and what will they do to mark the anniversary of the END of the protests? Burn down selected stores?