Meltdown Likely Under Way At Japan Nuclear Reactor

[Jdietz]

Because of its extremely long half-life I-129 isn't anything to worry about, it has extremely low activity. Think about it: Take the same amount of I-129 and I-131. in about 8 days I-131 will have emitted half the beta particles it ever will.

In about 15.7 Million years, the amount of I-129 will have done the same.

So during those 8 days, the actual amount of beta particles from I-129 will be totally inconsequential.

Edit to add:

- We don't have to worry too much about isotopes with short half-life because they will be gone soon enough (hours to months)

- We don't have to worry about isotopes with very long half-life because their activity is very low

- The intermediate isotopes like Cs-137 is what we have to look out for, they are active enough to affect you and long-lived enough to have the time to do so.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jdietz

[jfchandler]

Are there any magic tricks that we don't get iodine-129 readings? http://www.epa.gov/r...ml#affecthealth

None of the monitoring reports I've been reading mention Iodine 129, only Iodine 131...

But here's a new type of report that sheds some more light on the fallout levels of cesium by area...just for the most recent 24 hour period.

http://www.mext.go.jp/english/radioactivity_level/detail/1304083.htm

Edited March 23, 2011 by jfchandler

[elcent]

from the same site as the above

Where does cesium-137 come from?

Nonradioactive cesium occurs naturally in various minerals. Radioactive cesium-137 is produced when uranium and plutonium absorb neutrons and undergo fission. Examples of the uses of this process are nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons. The splitting of uranium and plutonium in fission creates numerous fission products. Cesium-137 is one of the more well-known fission products.

Top of page

What are the properties of cesium-137?

Cesium, as well as cesium-137, is a soft, malleable, silvery white metal. Cesium is one of only three metals that is a liquid near room temperature (83 °F). The half-life of cesium-137 is 30 years. It decays by emission of a beta particle and gamma rays to barium-137m.

Top of page

What is cesium-137 used for?

Cesium-137 is one of the most common radioisotopes used in industry. Thousands of devices use cesium-137:

• moisture-density gauges, widely used in the construction industry
• leveling gauges, used in industries to detect liquid flow in pipes and tanks
• thickness gauges, for measuring thickness of sheet metal, paper, film and many other products
• well-logging devices in the drilling industry to help characterize rock strata

Cesium-137 is also used in medical therapy to treat cancer.

http://www.epa.gov/radiation/radionuclides/cesium.html#wheredoes

[elcent]

Because of its extremely long half-life I-129 isn't anything to worry about, it has extremely low activity. Think about it: Take the same amount of I-129 and I-131. in about 8 days I-131 will have emitted half the beta particles it ever will.

In about 15.7 Million years, the amount of I-129 will have done the same.

So during those 8 days, the actual amount of beta particles from I-129 will be totally inconsequential.

Edit to add:

- We don't have to worry too much about isotopes with short half-life because they will be gone soon enough (hours to months)

- We don't have to worry about isotopes with very long half-life because their activity is very low

- The intermediate isotopes like Cs-137 is what we have to look out for, they are active enough to affect you and long-lived enough to have the time to do so.

I want figures of how much of the iodine-129 is realesed. What is the proportional relaese compared to iodine-131? This stuff gets accumulated in peoples bodies, in nature, everywhere. Seems everyone shys back from that. I think the reports we're getting are all manipulated tricking us to be radiated by iodine-131 only.

What about future genearation, this stuff accumulates literally everywhere. How many nuclear power plants' accidents do we need to reach the point of no return.

Edited March 23, 2011 by elcent

[Jdietz]

First figures I've been able to dig up is that I-129 is formed at about 1/5th of the amount of I-131. (I-129 fission yield: 0.6576% against around 3% total I-131 yield)

You could probably build your house out of I-129 (if you could keep it straight) without ever witnessing radiation though.

[elcent]

according to some sites, natural iodine129 is extinct since a long long time. why can it be found now?

Abstract

The concentrations of 129I and the ratios of 129I/127I in normal human thyroids collected in Tianjin, China, and some seaweed samples from the Chinese coast were determined by neutron activation analysis. The mean 129I/127I ratio in these thyroids was found to be 1.13 x 10(-9), which is two orders of magnitude higher than the level of the pre-nuclear era, but one order of magnitude lower than the level in Europe in the post-nuclear era. There is no significant difference between the ratio of 129I/127I in the thyroids for the post-nuclear era from China and other areas, which are considered not to have been directly exposed to 129I emission from a nuclear source, such as Chile, Taiwan and Tokyo. The mean 129I/127I ratio in seaweed from the Chinese coast is 2.35 x 10(-10), approximately two orders of magnitude higher than in seaweed collected in the pre-nuclear age, and similar to that from locations without direct exposure to the emission from nuclear installations, influenced only by global fallout. This indicates that the 129I level in China is within the global fallout background level.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10696729

here are some data which too

The ratio of stable iodine-127 to radioactive iodine-129 in the environment is more than

10 million to 1. The human body contains 10 to 20 milligrams of iodine, of which more

than 90% is contained in the thyroid gland. Iodine-129 is present in soil around the

world as a result of fallout from past atmospheric nuclear weapons tests; any iodine-131

that may have been present in soil from fallout has long since decayed away. Iodine may

also be found as a contaminant at facilities where spent nuclear fuel was processed.

http://www.evs.anl.gov/pub/doc/Iodine.pdf

[jfchandler]

NHK reporting that the government's advisory against infants in central and western Tokyo area being given tap water -- due to radioactive iodine levels double the government's standard for infants surfacing in a water plant sample -- is causing a run on bottled water in Tokyo stores.

The government's radiation limit for infants is 100 becquerels per litre of water... the water treatment sample was just over 200 becquerels.... and the current limit for adults is 300 becquerels per litre. That's why the government's advisory only applied to infants less than a year old, and not to the broader population.

Tokyo government planning to distribute 240,000 500-ml bottles of water for households with infants.Three bottles per household X an estimated 80,000 households.

Edited March 23, 2011 by jfchandler

[Jdietz]

Here's another source comparing I-129 and I-131 for those concerned:

It requires much more mass of an isotope with a long half life to give the same exposure/dose than that of an isotope of the same element with a short half life.

I-131 gives off 1,000,000,000 times as much radiation as the same mass of I-129. One microgram of I-131 would give off the same radiation as one kilogram of I-129.

I would be surprised if anything even CLOSE to a kilogram of anything was released so far.

Source (Powerpoint) http://lowdose.energy.gov/ppt/Powerpoint_WebInternal.ppt

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jdietz

[jfchandler]

NHK airing a segment on an estimated 10,000 to 20,000 residents around the stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plants who have refused to evacuate and leave their homes, defying the government's orders. Many of those residents refusing to leave, despite the radiation exposure risks, are elderly and/or disabled, and sometimes don't have food, water or electricity at home.

Japanese Self Defense Force soldiers below, wearing radiation protection suits, try unsuccessfully to persuade an elderly, disabled couple living a few kilometers from the Fukushima reactors to leave their home. The woman said her husband is disabled and bed-ridden, and cannot leave.

[webfact]

FLASH: Japan nuclear agency: Radiation level at Fukushima reactor No.2 at highest level recorded so far /RT @Reuters:

[elcent]

temperatures below 0 degree C are expected again.

[unblocktheplanet]

This thread has been an amazing resource for learning about nuclear power and the human effects of radiation. We are all now versed in nanoSieverts, microSieverts, milliSieverts and Sieverts; rads and Roentgens; nanoGrays, microGrays, milliGrays and Grays; milliRems and Rems, microCCuries, milliCuries and Curies; Becquerels, kiloBequerels, megaBequerels, gigaBequerels; microCoulombs, milliCoulombs and Coulombs; and clicks per second.

The reason for all these measures is that radiation exposure is cumulative--any measure of radiation is deadly to all living things, including us. Little Boy at Hiroshima is estimated to have produced eight yottaBequerels!

Many of these measures are named for the scientists who developed the measurement scale. Of course, none of these units are named for New Jersey's 'radium girls', sharpening their brushes with their saliva to paint numbers on glow-in-the-dark watchfaces, painting radium paint on their nails and lips for fun while the factory bosses and chemists cowered behind lead shields. they went on to die particularly agonising deaths by bone marrow cancer. That was in 1926—the factory sites are still Superfund cleanup sites.

When a human dies of radiation poisoning, his body itself contaminates the soil and groundwater if burial is employed or the atmosphere if cremated,

The media and others have been accused in this forum of being 'doomsayers' and 'scaremongers'.

After nearly two weeks, let's look at the realities:

1) Radiation detected in Tokyo's water supply

2) Radioactive iodine and caesium detected in seawater. Logically, one would expect iodine, a major component of all sea life, to be dangerous to humans eating ocean fish and sea vegetables.

3) Uncontrolled emissions until today. As the Fukushima reactors use MOX fuel rods which include plutonium, it is highly probable plutonium, the most deadly substance known to man, has been released into the atmosphere.

We have been told by experts that plutonium is almost impossible to detect in small quantities but no less deadly. Will this area, or even Tokyo itself, become uninhabitable?

If one factors in plutonium, we have to change the scale by which we view nuclear accidents. Fukushima could in fact become more deadly than Chernobyl.

There were proven coverups during the construction and operation of the Fukushima reactors. If such coverups exist in Japan, can anyone doubt that all nuclear power plants in 30 or so countries are suspect?

4) Japan is no closer to a solution to the Fukushima disaster.

To add some sense of scale, the Hanford Nuclear Reservation in the US was decommissioned in 1988 after contaminating 622 square kilkometres. Hanford's cleanup is not expected to be completed until 2052 at a cost of $128 billion.

Japan's banks are planning on lending $24 billion to TEPCO so the lights won't go dark in Tokyo, plus plus loans of $37.5 billion from government, adding the very real possibility of an economic meltdown to equal the nuclear.

Did Japan even consider its vast geothermal potential before going nuclear?

Can anyone still believe that nuclear power is a proven, safe, clean, green, cheap source of electricity? Proven, yes—proven deadly.

I'll say it again: If Thailand goes ahead with nuclear power, I'll be the first one blocking the road and chaining myself to the gates.

[elcent]

This thread has been an amazing resource for learning about nuclear power and the human effects of radiation. We are all now versed in nanoSieverts, microSieverts, milliSieverts and Sieverts; rads and Roentgens; nanoGrays, microGrays, milliGrays and Grays; milliRems and Rems, microCCuries, milliCuries and Curies; Becquerels, kiloBequerels, megaBequerels, gigaBequerels; microCoulombs, milliCoulombs and Coulombs; and clicks per second.

The reason for all these measures is that radiation exposure is cumulative--any measure of radiation is deadly to all living things, including us. Little Boy at Hiroshima is estimated to have produced eight yottaBequerels!

Many of these measures are named for the scientists who developed the measurement scale. Of course, none of these units are named for New Jersey's 'radium girls', sharpening their brushes with their saliva to paint numbers on glow-in-the-dark watchfaces, painting radium paint on their nails and lips for fun while the factory bosses and chemists cowered behind lead shields. they went on to die particularly agonising deaths by bone marrow cancer. That was in 1926—the factory sites are still Superfund cleanup sites.

You forgot the Gals, how mane were it? 431 Gals? Has that something to do with the last paragraph in the quote?

[jfchandler]

3) Uncontrolled emissions until today. As the Fukushima reactors use MOX fuel rods which include plutonium, it is highly probable plutonium, the most deadly substance known to man, has been released into the atmosphere.

Unblock, AFAIK, the MOX fuel rods at Fukushima Daiichi are limited to the No. 3 reactor. The others use regular reactor fuel.

[elcent]

3) Uncontrolled emissions until today. As the Fukushima reactors use MOX fuel rods which include plutonium, it is highly probable plutonium, the most deadly substance known to man, has been released into the atmosphere.

Unblock, AFAIK, the MOX fuel rods at Fukushima Daiichi are limited to the No. 3 reactor. The others use regular reactor fuel.

a minimum of 5 tons of plutonium should do the trick, don't you think so?

[jfchandler]

I believe that would be the 500 MILLIsievert per hour radiation detected earlier today and reported here...

The prior highest reading publicly reported was 400 mSv per hour last week near one of the reactors.

FLASH: Japan nuclear agency: Radiation level at Fukushima reactor No.2 at highest level recorded so far /RT @Reuters:

[elcent]

Unit 3 seems to be turning into full meltdown. At least for me here. The smoke ranging from white, grey and black seem to indicate that it's burning from the core to the outside while it bites itself through various materials.

[Jdietz]

Again, can we keep the activism down a bit, or at least move it to a nice thread of your own?

[elcent]

Again, can we keep the activism down a bit, or at least move it to a nice thread of your own?

Why would people in the control room of Unit 3 be evacuated for a little smoke that goes up?

I think you're correct. There's to much activism to play down the probably imminent. disaster.

[elcent]

Some psychological touch?

While there is good news from the crippled nuclear plant in Japan, another risk from radiation that we haven't heard much about may do more harm than the radiation itself. The Japanese government, and the company in charge of the crippled nuclear complex, are struggling with their risk and crisis communications, and their missteps are fueling mistrust and anger, which magnifies fear and stress, which may do more health damage than the radiation that has been released.

Some efforts have been outstanding. The constant presence of Chief Cabinet Secretary Yukio Edano, providing updates several times an hour, dressed in the work clothes of an emergency responder, not the suit and tie of a bureaucrat, and responding to questions without a script and with concern, has been very important. But Tokyo Electric's (TEPCO) apology, days into the crisis, even though made by company President Masataka Shimizu, seemed insincere against news that the company had to be ordered by Prime Minister Naoto Kan to keep it's workers at the site, despite radiation danger, to try to bring the nuclear reactors under control. Further, it took four days for the government and TEPCO to coordinate communications, and the disjointed and incomplete information released in those first few critical days created grave mistrust in both the company and the government. Edano himself said yesterday "In hindsight, we could have moved a little quicker in assessing the situation and coordinating all that information and provided it faster."

It is impossible and unfair to criticize specifics. At this distance it is hard to know exactly how things are playing out, what's being said, and harder still given that a lot is lost in translation. We also must respectfully remember this is an extraordinary crisis, with profound changes happening minute-by-minute, and the people fighting the fires can't stop what they're doing to pick up the phone and update headquarters on the latest developments moment-by-moment.

But it is clear than not nearly enough attention has been given to the importance of risk communication as a key part of managing the overall risk from these events. And that bears squarely on the health and safety of the public. Risk management in a crisis has to include not just the threat itself but also how people perceive and respond to the threat. Risk communication is a vital tool; for managing that part of the overall risk. How would you feel if messages about possible danger are inconsistent, and you learn things from the press that the government or company knew but didn't tell you? How does it feel when the Japanese government says radiation levels outside the plant are low and safe but experts from around the world sound more worried, or when the head of the IAEA, Yukiya Amano, has to scold the Japanese government by publicly asking them to share more information with the IAEA itself. How does it feel to know that TEPCO, and to a lesser degree the government, has a history of being less than forthright and open about problems at other nuclear facilities? Press reports have revealed that the company has frequently been purposefully deceitful about nuclear problems at other sites in the past. See "Japan Disaster Caps Decades of Faked Reports, Accidents" Stunningly, all these mistakes have been made in a country which has the most horrific first-hand experience with the frightening risks of radiation, albeit two generations ago, in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

In a word, that sort of poor risk communication will make you feel mistrustful. And mistrust in the people who are supposed to keep you safe translates into anger and worry, which causes all sorts of serious health risks. The likelihood of Post Traumatic Stress disorder, depression, and anxiety goes way up. Biologically, fear produces chronic stress, which increases blood pressure and raises the risk of cardiovascular disease, suppresses the immune system and raises susceptibility to and severity of infectious disease, increases the likelihood of Type 2 diabetes, suppresses growth, memory, and fertility. The risk from how people perceive risk, is as real as the physical danger itself, perhaps more.

We know that from previous nuclear crises. In "Chernobyl's Legacy", a sweeping review of Chernobyl at the 20th anniversary in 2006, the UN found that "The mental health impact of Chernobyl is the largest public health problem unleashed by the accident to date." In a review of how the government handled Three Mile Island, a senior Nuclear Regulatory Commission official who had been involved said of the poor communication "What we had done to these people was just outrageous. We had frightened them so bad, they thought they were going to die." Stunningly, tragically, a similar inattention to effective risk communication seems to be happening in Japan.

• A NY Times story Radiation Fears and Distrust Push Thousand From Homes quoted a citizen who fled his home, which was outside the mandated evacuation zone, "We might be overreacting, but we also know Tokyo Electric" the plants' operator "is not telling us everything," and reported that another ,"Hitoshi Suzuki, a 34-year-old construction worker, said that he thought the problem at the nuclear plants was twice as bad as the government let on. He produced a cellphone with Web sites that claimed the government was covering up the real damage at the plants."

• A Bloomberg news story Conflicting Information Drives Anxiety in Japan Nuclear Crisis quoted another citizen saying "We're furious about a lack of information from both the government and TEPCO. We also noticed there are conflicting accounts from the parties. Foreign media is reporting the impact of the nuke accident would be disastrous while Japanese media play it down. The gap also urged us to leave."

• A New York Times article Dearth of Candor from Japan's Leadership <http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/17/world/asia/17tokyo.html?scp=1&sq=tabuchi&st=cse> said "an increasingly angry and rattled Japanese public (is) frustrated by government and power company officials' failure to communicate clearly and promptly about the nuclear crisis. Pointing to conflicting reports, ambiguous language and a constant refusal to confirm the most basic facts, they suspect officials of withholding or fudging crucial information about the risks posed by the ravaged Daiichi plant." There is "a lot of frustration among the publicdemanding government to be more forthcoming. Not knowing is their biggest fear." (my emphasis)

There are many reasons for this poor risk communication; Arrogance and institutional self-protection and engineering/scientific hubris on the part of the company, the tendency by risk managers to avoid being honest with people about scary news for fear that it will make people afraid (which is a common but thoughtless mistake, since people are already afraid and the lack of openness and the mistrust it produces make things FAR worse), and a combative/defensive relationship with an aggressive, alarmist news media.

But the biggest mistake is an obvious failure to recognize that risk communication is a vital part of overall risk management. Far too little respect has been paid to the risk caused by the way people perceive and respond to risk. The peril is not just the radiation. It's people's fears of radiation. Whether those fears are consistent with the evidence of the actual physical risk (they aren't) doesn't matter. Fear is real, and does real harm. Tragically, though history has taught us these lessons, they don't appear to have been learned, and the health of the Japanese public is at risk as a result.

http://www.psycholog...adiation-itself

[vont]

This thread has been an amazing resource for learning about nuclear power and the human effects of radiation. We are all now versed in nanoSieverts, microSieverts, milliSieverts and Sieverts; rads and Roentgens; nanoGrays, microGrays, milliGrays and Grays; milliRems and Rems, microCCuries, milliCuries and Curies; Becquerels, kiloBequerels, megaBequerels, gigaBequerels; microCoulombs, milliCoulombs and Coulombs; and clicks per second.

The reason for all these measures is that radiation exposure is cumulative--any measure of radiation is deadly to all living things, including us. Little Boy at Hiroshima is estimated to have produced eight yottaBequerels!

Many of these measures are named for the scientists who developed the measurement scale. Of course, none of these units are named for New Jersey's 'radium girls', sharpening their brushes with their saliva to paint numbers on glow-in-the-dark watchfaces, painting radium paint on their nails and lips for fun while the factory bosses and chemists cowered behind lead shields. they went on to die particularly agonising deaths by bone marrow cancer. That was in 1926—the factory sites are still Superfund cleanup sites.

When a human dies of radiation poisoning, his body itself contaminates the soil and groundwater if burial is employed or the atmosphere if cremated,

The media and others have been accused in this forum of being 'doomsayers' and 'scaremongers'.

After nearly two weeks, let's look at the realities:

1) Radiation detected in Tokyo's water supply

2) Radioactive iodine and caesium detected in seawater. Logically, one would expect iodine, a major component of all sea life, to be dangerous to humans eating ocean fish and sea vegetables.

3) Uncontrolled emissions until today. As the Fukushima reactors use MOX fuel rods which include plutonium, it is highly probable plutonium, the most deadly substance known to man, has been released into the atmosphere.

We have been told by experts that plutonium is almost impossible to detect in small quantities but no less deadly. Will this area, or even Tokyo itself, become uninhabitable?

If one factors in plutonium, we have to change the scale by which we view nuclear accidents. Fukushima could in fact become more deadly than Chernobyl.

There were proven coverups during the construction and operation of the Fukushima reactors. If such coverups exist in Japan, can anyone doubt that all nuclear power plants in 30 or so countries are suspect?

4) Japan is no closer to a solution to the Fukushima disaster.

To add some sense of scale, the Hanford Nuclear Reservation in the US was decommissioned in 1988 after contaminating 622 square kilkometres. Hanford's cleanup is not expected to be completed until 2052 at a cost of $128 billion.

Japan's banks are planning on lending $24 billion to TEPCO so the lights won't go dark in Tokyo, plus plus loans of $37.5 billion from government, adding the very real possibility of an economic meltdown to equal the nuclear.

Did Japan even consider its vast geothermal potential before going nuclear?

Can anyone still believe that nuclear power is a proven, safe, clean, green, cheap source of electricity? Proven, yes—proven deadly.

I'll say it again: If Thailand goes ahead with nuclear power, I'll be the first one blocking the road and chaining myself to the gates.

Heavy investors in Thai nuclear generator plants have already been red in the face that the current power companies are not controlling the news media in containing the negativism against nuclear power plants in Thailand.

If you notice, just two months ago, the Thai nuclear power group has already put out ad in the evening trying to convince the locals that Thailand needs more energy, cheap energy and clean energy--nothing is cleaner and cheaper than nuclear energy.

Those advocating and appearing in the nuclear supportive ad are famous Thai movie stars and famous faces informing and cheering the local to trust in the new source of cheap and clean and trustworthy energy of Thailand.

As it says in the ad, nuclear energy is the cleanest, cheapest and most reliable.... much more efficient than wind and solar energy which are way too expensive in comparison to nuclear energy--the Japanese and Chinese are building more and more nuclear generators.

Friend, you'd better get ready soon, perhaps in a couple of years, some Thai well paid and well oiled politicians will try again to push the nuclear power generator plant plan thru the senate and down the throat of the unsuspecting coastal residents by offering millions and millions to help the poor in those areas.

[jfchandler]

Friend, you'd better get ready soon, perhaps in a couple of years, some Thai well paid and well oiled politicians will try again to push the nuclear power generator plant plan thru the senate and down the throat of the unsuspecting coastal residents by offering millions and millions to help the poor in those areas.

These things always go in cycles... hot and cold... After TMI, cold...for a long time... Lately just beginning to warm up again... Enter Fukushima... now likely cold again for a lot of years... But gone and done, probably not... depending on the locale.

[Lopburi99]

Unit 3 seems to be turning into full meltdown. At least for me here. The smoke ranging from white, grey and black seem to indicate that it's burning from the core to the outside while it bites itself through various materials.

Did I miss a discussion by you guys about this? CNN just had a Breaking News on it. They said black smoke is coming out and the plant has been evacuated.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Lopburi99

[Jdietz]

Last I heard was:

- There was black smoke spotted again at the E side of the reactor

- People were evacuated out of precaution

- No increased radioactivity was measured

- The smoke faded and turned white again.

Don't mind the scaremongers.

Edit: Full story here: http://www3.nhk.or.jp/daily/english/23_33.html

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jdietz

[JulianLS]

I have been following the debate about caesium 137, though I am not sure I can add much. The fact that caesium is not at all abundant in everyday life, and plays no role in biology, means it is not a topic that is high on the agenda in regular biochemistry. It really only becomes relevant in the context of nuclear waste (so maybe its higher up the agenda now!)

So then, caesium behaves in a similar fashion to other alkali metals (sodium, potassium). The Cs+ ion though, due to its large size, is likely to form more complex bonds with other elements when compared to sodium or potassium,. But still, it is very soluble in water and likely to be taken up by plants. And by animals that eat plants. The big difference with iodine though, comes from the fact that iodine is collected by the body and used in the thyroid. Whereas, caesium is likely to be excreted over time, like sodium and potassium in sweat, urine, etc.

So then, one can see why iodine is considered the bigger threat: it is collected and stored in the body in a localised way, and has a short half life (likely to emit radiation). Whereas caesium is likely to pass through your body in time, and the long half-life means that most likely, it will go in as caesium-137 and leave as caesium-137 (ie no radiation emitted by most atoms). So whilst the long half-life is bad in terms of it hanging around in the soil, its a good thing when it happens to be in your body!

I found a couple of relevant articles. One about caesium-137 retention in and excretion from the human body. This shows the average half retention to vary between 80 and 130 days. With a half life of 30 years, then the majority would be excreted still as Cs 137 from a single dose. Alas the article is in rems.....

http://iopscience.iop.org/0031-9155/7/2/302/pdf/0031-9155_7_2_302.pdf

And another about Cs-137 in contaminated pigeons around Seascale, where they do make an estimate of exposure in mSV based on Bq/kg readings (they estimate that eating 6 pigeon breasts, showing levels of 0.11 MBq/kg would result in an exposure dose of 1mSv.) Taking a rough approximation that 6 pigeon breasts weigh approx 1kg, then that gives a very rough guideline of 0.11 MBq of Cs137 (or 110 kBq, or 110,000 Bq) translating to 1mSv.

http://archive.food.gov.uk/maff/archive/food/incid_1/bnfp23.htm

Not sure if that helps.

Bottom line, as mentioned earlier by other posters, is the actual amount and duration of ingestion. One dose of Cs-137 is likely to pass through harmlessly. But if it is continually ingested over a long period, it would no doubt reach steady state levels (ingestion = excretion). And then over 30 years, it might add to a serious amount of exposure. Prussian Blue is a drug (well, actually its a dye with good Cs binding properties) used to remove cs-137 (and other radioisotopes) from the body by scavenging it in the gut (and excreting it much more quickly than mentioned above, via feces). Useful in an accident situation, but not practical if you happen to live in an area where the veggies are contaminated with low levels and you are eating it daily....

[Jdietz]

Excellent post, confirming much of what was previously speculated, but with numbers and background material. Thanks!

Radiochemical analysis of the breast muscle from the pigeons showed significant levels of plutonium and americium-241 isotopes (table 4 and table 5) but of much lower radiological significance than caesium. These isotopes would only contribute a few percent of the dose to any consumer of that due to caesium - 137.

Eat that, plutonium scaremongers

To expand on that: http://www.atomicins...tonium_eff.html

During the Manhattan Project in 1944 and 1945, 26 men accidentally ingested plutonium in quantities that far exceeded what is now considered to be a lethal dose. Since there has been a consistent interest in the health effects of this brand new substance (first discovered by Glenn Seaborg's team at the University of California in 1940), these men were closely tracked for medical studies.

As of 1987, more than four decades later, only four of the workers had died and only one death was caused by cancer. The expected number of deaths in a random sample of men the age of those in the group is 10. The expected number of deaths from cancer in a similar group is between two and three.

(...)

It has to be considered important, however, to know that at least 22 men have been able to live more than 40 years after ingesting "the most toxic substance known to man." It should make one question the motives and accuracy of Ralph Nader, a public figure who has actively promoted such an obviously inaccurate statement.

Finally, a plutonium 'fact-sheet' can be found here: http://www.wipp.energy.gov/fctshts/plutonium.pdf

Edited March 23, 2011 by Jdietz

[JulianLS]

During the Manhattan Project in 1944 and 1945, 26 men accidentally ingested plutonium in quantities that far exceeded what is now considered to be a lethal dose. Since there has been a consistent interest in the health effects of this brand new substance (first discovered by Glenn Seaborg's team at the University of California in 1940), these men were closely tracked for medical studies.

As of 1987, more than four decades later, only four of the workers had died and only one death was caused by cancer. The expected number of deaths in a random sample of men the age of those in the group is 10. The expected number of deaths from cancer in a similar group is between two and three.

Not sure if I want to open this debate, but there are theories which suggest that low level radiation doses, somewhat above background level, over a long period of time can actually help to prevent cancer by invoking an enhanced level of damage repair. It's called radiation hormesis. A study of residents of apartments in Taiwan (in which the construction steel had been contaminated with Cobalt-60 leading to significant radiation exposure over 30 years) came up with lower than average levels of cancer in the exposed group. Mainstream science has said the study is flawed, and that may well be true (I haven't gone into it in detail, tho it did seem as if they compared to national stats which was not a good control sample). Here's the link if anyone is interested.....

http://www.ecolo.org/documents/documents_in_english/low-dose-Cobalt-taiw-06.pdf

No doubt at the time, mainstream science would have questioned the sanity of Jenner giving cow pox to people to protect them against smallpox.....

But still, for the time being I am gonna keep an open mind on the theory, and avoid radiation in the interim

[unblocktheplanet]

My 'activism' is well-tempered with hard, cold facts.

Wasn't there a TV commercial once where a nuke exec drank some radioactive liquid? He might still be alive! And perhaps the 26 who ingested plutonium are, too, but I'd bet they would undo the years of anxiety (and testing) if not health problems.

We keep getting back to Nuke No. 3. That's the MOX-fuelled one, no? And they're talking full meltdown?!? Yikes!

The real problem is that the four horsemen of govt, industry, lobbyists and apologists will crawl back under the woodwork like the cockroaches they are and wait till we've all forgotten...again.

[brahmburgers]

NHK airing a segment on an estimated 10,000 to 20,000 residents around the stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plants who have refused to evacuate and leave their homes, defying the government's orders. Many of those residents refusing to leave, despite the radiation exposure risks, are elderly and/or disabled, and sometimes don't have food, water or electricity at home.

Japanese Self Defense Force soldiers below, wearing radiation protection suits, try unsuccessfully to persuade an elderly, disabled couple living a few kilometers from the Fukushima reactors to leave their home. The woman said her husband is disabled and bed-ridden, and cannot leave.

Good post. We need posts and photos like that to try and convince the last die-hard remnants who are in favor of a nuclear Thailand - that it's fraught with problems, big and small.

(excerpt)

Japan's banks are planning on lending $24 billion to TEPCO so the lights won't go dark in Tokyo, plus plus loans of $37.5 billion from government, adding the very real possibility of an economic meltdown to equal the nuclear.

BB's comments in brown

That's like investing billions of $$'s remodeling the Titanic restaurant while it's sinking. I'm not saying Japan is sinking, but to re-invest in nuclear is not the smart way.

Did Japan even consider its vast geothermal potential before going nuclear?

Geothermal, ahhhh, music to my ears. There's vast amount of untapped geothermal potential in Japan, hopefully recent nuclear screw-ups will open their eyes, or better yet, get their butts moving to tap in to it. If they need experts on harvesting geothermal, they can look to the Icelanders and others in N.American who are making it work. Thailand also has geothermal potential. Maybe it's an Asian thing, - to be spooked by developing a clean, nearly limitless energy source just 10 meters beneath their feet.

Can anyone still believe that nuclear power is a proven, safe, clean, green, cheap source of electricity? Proven, yes—proven deadly.

As you say, pretty much only politicians and businessmen who stand to make a lot of money (legit or bribes) in the process, are still in favor of nuclear. It's also a 'face' thing. Vietnam, Indonesia and Burma have been talking about going nuclear. Thailand doesn't want to be left out of the nuclear club. Maybe it's also a hedge toward future bomb development. Look at India's and Pakistan's A-bomb programs. Both got boosts with nuclear plants, which aided processing.

I'll say it again: If Thailand goes ahead with nuclear power, I'll be the first one blocking the road and chaining myself to the gates.

I'll be there with you, though it might put a damper on the visa renewal process.

Again, can we keep the activism down a bit, or at least move it to a nice thread of your own?

No, we can't keep it down. Activism is needed now, as much as ever before. Thailand's EGAT still wants five nuclear power plants. When they decide to scrap those ridiculous and harmful plans, please let me know. ok?

Edited March 24, 2011 by brahmburgers

[midas]

NHK airing a segment on an estimated 10,000 to 20,000 residents around the stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plants who have refused to evacuate and leave their homes, defying the government's orders. Many of those residents refusing to leave, despite the radiation exposure risks, are elderly and/or disabled, and sometimes don't have food, water or electricity at home.

Japanese Self Defense Force soldiers below, wearing radiation protection suits, try unsuccessfully to persuade an elderly, disabled couple living a few kilometers from the Fukushima reactors to leave their home. The woman said her husband is disabled and bed-ridden, and cannot leave.

Good post. We need posts and photos like that to try and convince the last die-hard remnants who are in favor of a nuclear Thailand - that it's fraught with problems, big and small.

(excerpt)

Japan's banks are planning on lending $24 billion to TEPCO so the lights won't go dark in Tokyo, plus plus loans of $37.5 billion from government, adding the very real possibility of an economic meltdown to equal the nuclear.

That's like investing billions of $$'s in to remodeling the Titanic restaurant while it's sinking. I'm not saying Japan is sinking, but to re-invest in nuclear is not the smart way.

Did Japan even consider its vast geothermal potential before going nuclear?

Georthermal, ahhhh, music to my ears. There's vast amount of untapped geothermal potential in Japan, hopefully recent nuclear screw-ups will open their eyes, or better yet, get their butts moving to tap in to it. If they need experts on harvesting geothermal, they can look to the Icelanders and others in N.American who are making it work. Thailand also has geothermal potential. Maybe it's an Asian thing, - to be spooked by developing a clean, nearly limitless energy source just 10 meters beneath their feet.

Can anyone still believe that nuclear power is a proven, safe, clean, green, cheap source of electricity? Proven, yes—proven deadly.

As you say, pretty much only politicians and businessmen who stand to make a lot of money (legit or bribes) in the process, are still in favor of nuclear. It's also a 'face' thing. Vietnam, Indonesia and Burma have been talking about going nuclear. Thailand doesn't want to be left out of the nuclear club. Maybe it's also a hedge toward future bomb development. Look at India's and Pakistan's A-bomb program. Both started (undeclared) with nuclear plants.

I'll say it again: If Thailand goes ahead with nuclear power, I'll be the first one blocking the road and chaining myself to the gates.

I'll be there with you, though it might put a damper on the visa renewal process.

Again, can we keep the activism down a bit, or at least move it to a nice thread of your own?

No, we can't keep it down. Activism is needed now, as much as ever before. Thailand's EGAT still wants five nuclear power plants. When they decide to scrap those ridiculous and harmful plans, please let me know. ok?

You have to admiit the laxidasical approach to so many things in Thailand

gives its " mai ben rai " charm and i am sure to many farangs it is even a bit of an attraction

But as an example look at the fiasco regarding sinking runways at Suvarnabhumi Airport.

A nuclear power station surely needs to work like absolute clockwork and what i keep wondering

is could they apply these high standards consistently day after day ?