"oil" Or "oy"?

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

Yes, this is a hot topic. I hope someone will post a text book or too so we can see the (many) different techniques out there!!!!

Perhaps this link will help "come together" us in the discussion:

http://www.conk.com/search/encyclopedia.cg...Transliteration

Transliteration in a narrow sense is a mapping from one system of writing into another. Transliteration attempts to be lossless, so that an informed reader should be able to reconstruct the original spelling of unknown transliterated words. To achieve this objective transliteration may define complex conventions for dealing with letters in a source script which do not correspond with letters in a goal script. Romaji is an example of a transliterating method.
This is opposed to transcription, which maps the sounds of one language to the script of another language. Still, most transliterations map the letters of the source script to letters pronounced similarly in the goal script, for some specific pair of source and goal language.

One instance of transliteration is the use of an English computer keyboard to type in a language that uses a different alphabet, such as in Russian. While the first usage of the word implies seeking the best way to render foreign words into a particular language, the typing transliteration is a purely pragmatic process of inputting text in a particular language. Transliteration from English letters is particularly important for users who are only familiar with the English keyboard layout, and hence could not type quickly in a different alphabet even if their software would actually support a keyboard layout for another language. Some programs, such as the Russian language word processor Hieroglyph provide typing by transliteration as an important feature. The rest of the article concerns itself with the first meaning of the word, that is rendering foreign words into a different alphabet.

If the relations between letters and sounds are similar in both languages, a transliteration may be (almost) the same as a transcription. In practice, there are also some mixed transliteration/transcription systems, that transliterate a part of the original script and transcribe the rest. Greeklish is an example of such a mixture.

In a broader sense, the word transliteration is used to include both transliteration in the narrow sense and transcription. Anglicizing is a transcription method. Romanization encompasses several transliteration and transcription methods.

Continuing:

Uses of transliteration
Transliterations in the narrow sense are used in situations where the original script is not available to write down a word in that script, while still high precision is required. For example, traditional or cheap typesetting with a small character set; editions of old texts in scripts not used any more (such as Linear ; some library catalogues (see www.ifla.org/VII/s13/pubs/isbdg0.htm).

For example, the Greek language is written in the 24-letter Greek alphabet, which overlaps with, but differs from, the 26-letter version of the Roman alphabet in which English is written. Etymologies in English dictionaries often identify Greek words as ancestors of words used in English. Consequently, most such dictionaries transliterate the Greek words into Roman letters.

Transliteration in the broader sense is a necessary process when using words or concepts expressed in a language with a script other than one's own.

The idea of transliteration is complicated by the genuine use in multiple languages of different common nouns for the same person, place or thing. Thus, "Muhammad" is in common use now in English and "Mohammed" is less popular, though there are excellent reasons for each transcription (and similarly for "Muslim" and "Moslem"). "Muslim" and "Mohammedan" are not interchangeable, as "Mohammedan" has come to be viewed as a religious slur, and the typical French usage "Musulman" is considered offensively colonialist in English language contexts. However, "Musulmaan" is the way to say "Muslim" in other languages, such as Urdu, Hindi and Russian.

Writing.Lesson.07.Sound.Killer.pdf

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

Wow! It seems this topic is so hot. ...
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I only wanted to raise a smile or two about my g/f and "Oil". Or "Oy". Whatever.

Next subject... "How to write 'Roger' in Thai."

I write it: โรเจอร์

Any arguments?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

โรเจอร์

That looks great to me!

Cheers!

loong · September 17, 2005

Wow! It seems this topic is so hot. ...
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry, I only wanted to raise a smile or two about my g/f and "Oil". Or "Oy". Whatever.

Next subject... "How to write 'Roger' in Thai."

I write it: โรเจอร์

Any arguments?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not from me

How many suggestions for "Keith" written in Thai?

Edited September 17, 2005 by loong

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

Not from me
How many suggestions for "Keith" written in Thai?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

To keep us all "in harmony" (if possible, laughing loud again), we might be in good shape if we specified if we are lookng for (or creating) "transcriptions" or "transliterations"...... and I noticed in my earlier posts that I occasionally used "transcription" at times when I should have used "transliteration"... but generally, I have been discussing "transcription".

I'll be more careful in the future.... I was doing the same thing, accidently the other day, with "aspirate" and "pronounce"- and Meadish kindly corrected my errors. Since many of us are using the terms for both "transliterations" and "transcriptions" (accidentally), we are having a hard time to "stay in sync".....

Kind of like playing music together with different ways to read the notes ..... !!!!!

FYI: See attachment

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

loong · September 17, 2005

attachment?

Where is it please

merlin1 · September 17, 2005

Because "Law Ling" is pronounced in Thai as an "N" as a final consonant, to be formally correct, you must put the "gaaran" over the last "L" ("Law Ling") in the Thai transcription of Micheal, or Thai people will mispronounce your name with a final "N" sound.

That was my understanding, only changed because a Thai friend said otherwise. Need to make new business cards.

The final sound for "S" in Thai is "T", never, "S" unless there is a "gaaran" over the Thai consonant.

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At least I got this one right โรดส์ my last name and no-one has said it was wrong yet.

Was just going through my storge area and forgot about this book. "The Fundamentals of the Thai Language" by Stuart Campbell and Chuan Shaweevongs. It is the first book I got to improve on my grammer, my basic Thai was fine but needed to expand on it. The definition of the garun in it is basic, silencer and usually used with foreign words. Will look at your recommended reading link.

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I wouldn't put the garan on the last "L" of your first name. Mi-keun is as good as any. If the garan is there, they will say Mi-keu. Take your pick. But no one will Mi-keul that's for sure!

Edited September 17, 2005 by merlin1

Dara · September 17, 2005

Folks - RE: how to write names in Thai scripts - good news for everyone - when it comes to names, there's no hard fast rules - you can do it any way that suits your soul.

That said, I understand that some people are worried about how people pronounce names as they read them. Unfortunately, I don't think that it should be a worry since people will read it anyway they know how. There are more traditional transcription rules that have been established by the Royal Institute of Siam, but not everyone follows it, some due to preference, and some to avoid the unfortunate meaning of the word or sound. For example, Seiko watch is pronounced say-ko by the Japanese and probably most of the rest of the world, in Thai, it's pronounced sai-ko. Why? Because "say" in Thai means to falter or to loose one's balance, so the decision was to call it sai-ko instead to avoid the unfortunate meaning for a product.

As for Michael's concern about how people read the names, those who know will read it correctly, those who do not, will read it with the "n" sound. If you are going to get academic about it, those who read it with the "n" sound are not wrong at all according to how transcribed words should be read in Thai.

My point is, there's always a problem with cross-language transcription/pronunciation - just think of all those Thai names that farangs read with their know how. How many times have you heard people say "Foo-ket" for Phuket - we can say be frustrated - but the fact is, "ph" represents "ภ" according to the official RIS transcript - and long ago someone decided that it's important to differentiate between all the "p" alphabets in Thai - so there it is.

At any rate, the Thais do not follow spelling rules when it comes to how names are written. First names are too important to let rules determine how it should look in scripts......

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

/deleted mijan246's attack (which violates forum rules)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

. Have a nice day :-) and please obey forum rules.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

Folks - RE: how to write names in Thai scripts - good news for everyone - when it comes to names, there's no hard fast rules - you can do it any way that suits your soul.
That said, I understand that some people are worried about how people pronounce names as they read them. Unfortunately, I don't think that it should be a worry since people will read it anyway they know how. There are more traditional transcription rules that have been established by the Royal Institute of Siam, but not everyone follows it, some due to preference, and some to avoid the unfortunate meaning of the word or sound. For example, Seiko watch is pronounced say-ko by the Japanese and probably most of the rest of the world, in Thai, it's pronounced sai-ko. Why? Because "say" in Thai means to falter or to loose one's balance, so the decision was to call it sai-ko instead to avoid the unfortunate meaning for a product.

As for Michael's concern about how people read the names, those who know will read it correctly, those who do not, will read it with the "n" sound. If you are going to get academic about it, those who read it with the "n" sound are not wrong at all according to how transcribed words should be read in Thai.

My point is, there's always a problem with cross-language transcription/pronunciation - just think of all those Thai names that farangs read with their know how. How many times have you heard people say "Foo-ket" for Phuket - we can say be frustrated - but the fact is, "ph" represents "ภ" according to the official RIS transcript - and long ago someone decided that it's important to differentiate between all the "p" alphabets in Thai - so there it is.

At any rate, the Thais do not follow spelling rules when it comes to how names are written. First names are too important to let rules determine how it should look in scripts......

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Dear Dara,

This is absolutely correct. Notice that Michael is happy and off to CMU with lots to discuss. It is all about teamwork and education.

Cheers!

Richard W · September 17, 2005

For example; Michael Schumacher, you would see this name was transliterated in both ไมเคิล ชูมัคเกอร์ or มิคาเอล ชูมัคเกอร์, without ga-run on both of them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Is the second a transliteration from the German? It makes no sense as a transliteration from English. But then Thais sometimes object to phonetic transliterations from English that contradict English spelling pronunciations.

When I was transliterating a lot of words into the Thai script for my wife, I found that the transliteration that would work best for 'Mikle' was ไมโค็ล or ไมโก็ล! As far as I am aware, sara o plus maitaikhu is quite ungrammatical in Thai. I can think of complex phonetic reasons for it working - the similarity of [l] and [o] (cf. Beograd v. Belgrade), the traditional equivalence between โ and English long 'o'.

Wow! It seems this topic is so hot. ...
<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Next subject... "How to write 'Roger' in Thai."

I write it: โรเจอร์

Any arguments?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a whole slew of forms that represent the 'o' better:

ร็อดเจอร์

รอดเจอร์

รอเจอร์

รดเจอร์

รดเจอร์ is my favourite, and makes a lot of sense if you bear in mind the old pet form 'Hodge'. However, Thais would probably prefer one of the three other forms, and, the spelling may persuade Thais to insist on it being transliterated as you do. I think เราะเจอร is a non-starter.

They all raise the question of why the karan? As an Englishman, the answer is perfectly simple - the final <r> is silent. This may not go down well with most Americans.

loong · September 17, 2005

There's a whole slew of forms that represent the 'o' better:
ร็อดเจอร์

รอดเจอร์

รอเจอร์

รดเจอร์

It just shows how opinions differ

None of these would equate to "Roger" in my way of speaking and yet, to me, Roger is one of the easiest names to write in Thai

Now I'm really confused

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

attachment?
Where is it please

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Loong,

I found some font errors in one of the attachments and wanted to fix the errors for everyone

Here is one (attached, in Thai).... I will find the second one and post after I fix the font errors.

principles_of_thai_english_romanization.pdf

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

loong · September 17, 2005

attachment?
Where is it please

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Loong,

I found some font errors in one of the attachments and wanted to fix the errors for everyone

Here is one (attached, in Thai).... I will find the second one and post after I fix the font errors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had a look at the link and it does show the difficulties in using the adopted methods of transliteration or whatever the word is

The Thai word for water would be written as Nam whereas I would prefer to write it as Num, but as I understand it the correct pronunciation is actually a sort of cross between the two. Maybe Nahm is closer. Anyway, with my English Kent accent no way of romanisation captures it accurately.

We will have to accept that we all write words differently in the hope that they will be understood.

You will write Mai Pen Rai and that is the correct adopted method, but I will always write Mai Bpen Rai as that is the way I learnt it.

The correct way of writing "Center Road Pattaya" would be "Phattaya Klang" but all the signs say "Pattaya Klang" with no "h". I would prefer "Put-ta-yah Glung or Glahng". This is simply because I believe that a person from my part of the Uk would have more chance of pronouncing it nearly correctly.

My way of writing is not correct in many people's eyes, I know that. Sometimes I have to write Thai words this way as I have difficulty in reading Thai. I have problems with the missing vowels, I often forget the little used consonants and have to concentrate to get the tone rules correct.

Romanising Thai helps me to remember, but I actually will be glad when the day comes that I no longer have to rely on it to help me.

A long way off yet I fear

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

attachment?
Where is it please

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sorry Loong,

I found some font errors in one of the attachments and wanted to fix the errors for everyone

Here is one (attached, in Thai).... I will find the second one and post after I fix the font errors.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I had a look at the link and it does show the difficulties in using the adopted methods of transliteration or whatever the word is

The Thai word for water would be written as Nam whereas I would prefer to write it as Num, but as I understand it the correct pronunciation is actually a sort of cross between the two. Maybe Nahm is closer. Anyway, with my English Kent accent no way of romanisation captures it accurately.

We will have to accept that we all write words differently in the hope that they will be understood.

You will write Mai Pen Rai and that is the correct adopted method, but I will always write Mai Bpen Rai as that is the way I learnt it.

The correct way of writing "Center Road Pattaya" would be "Phattaya Klang" but all the signs say "Pattaya Klang" with no "h". I would prefer "Put-ta-yah Glung or Glahng". This is simply because I believe that a person from my part of the Uk would have more chance of pronouncing it nearly correctly.

My way of writing is not correct in many people's eyes, I know that. Sometimes I have to write Thai words this way as I have difficulty in reading Thai. I have problems with the missing vowels, I often forget the little used consonants and have to concentrate to get the tone rules correct.

Romanising Thai helps me to remember, but I actually will be glad when the day comes that I no longer have to rely on it to help me.

A long way off yet I fear

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, Absolutely well stated, Khun Loong.

There was a recent article in the TG in-flight magagzine that discussed Thai-English and they identified something like 12-15 or more different transliterations (and the other trans* word..) in Thailand. None are "perfect".....

If we all understand that, then, as I said in an earlier post, diversity can be fun! There is a lesson to be learned is that "everyone is right" and "entitied to their views" and we should not try to claim that any one view or perspective is "right" or "wrong"... it simply is. It does not matter if you are Thai for Farang.... we all have a lot to learn from each other.

One cannot say... Thais are right. Farangs are right. Thais are wrong. Farangs are wrong. ... because it is cross-language, cross-cultural, cross-national...... Then, as a few folks have illustrated, there is more confusion when the different "Farang cultures" are considered... US, UK, Swiss, German, ........ so much fun and so little time!

I am very interested to hear the results when Michael (did I spell it right this time?) has his fun with all we discussed at CMU!

Don't Worry. Be Happy.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

RDN · September 17, 2005

I've cleaned up ("set invisible" or edited) some posts in this thread. It's a bit sad when some members let silly comments blow up into major rows Please lighten up people!

Thanks for all the other, useful, posts by the way.

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

I've cleaned up ("set invisible" or edited) some posts in this thread. It's a bit sad when some members let silly comments blow up into major rows Please lighten up people!
Thanks for all the other, useful, posts by the way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear RDN,

Thank you for excellent moderation. This is a very interesting topic and useful for everyone who loves Thai language.

Dear Loong,

I am still having trouble with this file (font problems), so I post as an attachment "in the raw"... sorry, I couldn't find a cleaner version.

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

discussion.of.transcription.pdf

RDN · September 17, 2005

Next subject... "How to write 'Roger' in Thai."
I write it: โรเจอร์

Any arguments?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

There's a whole slew of forms that represent the 'o' better:

ร็อดเจอร์

รอดเจอร์

รอเจอร์

รดเจอร์

รดเจอร์ is my favourite, and makes a lot of sense if you bear in mind the old pet form 'Hodge'. However, Thais would probably prefer one of the three other forms, and, the spelling may persuade Thais to insist on it being transliterated as you do. I think เราะเจอร is a non-starter.

They all raise the question of why the karan? As an Englishman, the answer is perfectly simple - the final <r> is silent. This may not go down well with most Americans.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks RW. I like your way - รดเจอร์ - especially if it makes "Roger" sound like "Dodger" - is that what you meant?

But the biggest problem I have with my spelling - โรเจอร์ - is that Thais tend to give the "-er" at the end too much emphasis, just like they do with "comput-ER".

Is there a way to shorten the "-er"? E.g. รดเจอ็ร์ (Doesn't look right to me )

Richard W · September 17, 2005

There was a recent article in the TG in-flight magagzine that discussed Thai-English and they identified something like 12-15 or more different transliterations (and the other trans* word..) in Thailand. None are "perfect".....
If we all understand that, then, as I said in an earlier post, diversity can be fun! There is a lesson to be learned is that "everyone is right" and "entitied to their views" and we should not try to claim that any one view or perspective is "right" or "wrong"... it simply is.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It depends on whether you wish to be understood, or to be able to make a good guess at the Thai. It's difficult enough if everyone uses the RTGS, but even more guessing is needed if everyone uses their own undefined system. Furthermore, trying to use English vowel values to distinguish what English does not is disastrous. Fundamentals of the Thai Language pushes such schemes to the limit, but even then has to introduce macrons and omits several distinctions. Thai-language.com takes it too far - fortunately the deviations between written and spoken Thai vowel symbols is quite small, most of the complexities being in the syllabification. Try pronouncing รรรรร!

Early Modern English vowel values would be better - we even had 'ee' v. 'ea' for เ v. แ and 'oo' v. 'oa' for โ v. อ, but the Great Vowel Shift spoilt all that. Swedish å has also shifted, which is a shame, as æ and å for แ and อ would have been quite neat.

On a pedantic note, most of what I see is transcriptions, i.e. they represent the sound. I much regret that I have never seen serious use of an accurate transliteration - i.e. a representation of the spelling - of Thai that attempts to handle native words in addition to Indic words. The problem is that people want to cram five letters into four symbols, e.g. บ ป ผ พ ภ to b p ph ph bh, which is ambiguous. (Perhaps the ideas is that aspirated sounds should have an 'h'.) Or does the graphic system actually handle native words? An example of such systems is 'Suvarnbhumi'.

RDN · September 17, 2005

...
Dear Loong,

I am still having trouble with this file (font problems), so I post as an attachment "in the raw"... sorry, I couldn't find a cleaner version.

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

Attached File(s)

discussion.of.transcription.pdf ( 108.07k )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm having font problems, too (with your attached file). Any ideas how to fix?

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

On a pedantic note, most of what I see is transcriptions, i.e. they represent the sound. I much regret that I have never seen serious use of an accurate transliteration - i.e. a representation of the spelling - of Thai that attempts to handle native words in addition to Indic words. The problem is that people want to cram five letters into four symbols, e.g. บ ป ผ พ ภ to b p ph ph bh, which is ambiguous. (Perhaps the ideas is that aspirated sounds should have an 'h'.) Or does the graphic system actually handle native words? An example of such systems is 'Suvarnbhumi'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Dear Richard,

Go ahead, be a bit pedantic, as this topic has turned to good detail and the depth of your knowledge is welcome - we are all learning. I agree that most I see tends to be transcriptions, i.e. they represent the sound. - which I like much better personallly, than mapping letters transliterations.

Dear Loong,

Here are two more attachments on / or quite close to / topic. They illustrate the complexity of what we have been discussing in our TV ad hoc "virtual classroom" environment.

Dear RDM,

I once found a "clean" PDF version on the net (no font problems), and have "Googled for the benefit of the topic" and can't locate it. at the moment. I think the problem was created when the file was converted to PDF from MSWord. Somewhere, I also have a Word version.....

Yours sincerely,

Mr. Farang

SEALS14_paper.pdf

0100857.pdf

Edited September 17, 2005 by Mr. Farang

Richard W · September 17, 2005

Thanks RW. I like your way - รดเจอร์ - especially if it makes "Roger" sound like "Dodger" - is that what you meant?

Yes.

But the biggest problem I have with my spelling - โรเจอร์ - is that Thais tend to give the "-er" at the end too much emphasis, just like they do with "comput-ER".
Is there a way to shorten the "-er"? E.g. รดเจอ็ร์ (Doesn't look right to me )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It's a difficult one. If you shorten the vowel in Thai, it has to be followed by a glottal stop, something like an Estuarine 'rodget' (not rhyming with 'bodge it'). As a Thai word, it would be รดเจอะ. I don't know whether Thais would find either of รดเจ็อร์ and รดเจอะร์ acceptable as 'transliterations' of English. I've seen some strange notations for vowel shortening in Thai transliterations of Northern Thai, such as เกีย็น.

Edited September 17, 2005 by Richard W

Richard W · September 17, 2005

SEALS14_paper.pdf ( 150.13k )

Interesting that they missed the rule that schwa is not accepted as an input to 'transliteration', e.g. the rendering of English -a by Thai -า.

They've missed something out, or misreported their table of conversions from English sounds to Thai sounds. That's the only way I can explain their getting long vowels for the 'e' of 'Blackwell', 'Campbell', 'Dennis' and 'Edward'.

P.S. I apologise for mistyping 'Suvarnabhumi' as 'Suvarnbhumi'.

Mr. Farang · September 17, 2005

But the biggest problem I have with my spelling - โรเจอร์ - is that Thais tend to give the "-er" at the end too much emphasis, just like they do with "comput-ER".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

โรเจอร์

Where, as you kindly articulate in reply, Thais often would emphasize the "ER" which means they do not silence the final consonant with gaaran, but pronounce as a beginning consonant.

The "way" I like (to shorten the 'ER' ending), is either"

โรเจอะร์

or, perhaps even:

ราเจอะร์ (a more American pronounciation, perhaps a bit "deep south")

and/or (for fun):

รอเจอะร์ (a bit more, DEEP SOUTH, USA.... kinda, Howdy-Doody "Rawger Dawger".... laughing out loud.)

Sanook, na krap?

Edited September 18, 2005 by Mr. Farang

Dara · September 18, 2005

On a pedantic note, most of what I see is transcriptions, i.e. they represent the sound. I much regret that I have never seen serious use of an accurate transliteration - i.e. a representation of the spelling - of Thai that attempts to handle native words in addition to Indic words. The problem is that people want to cram five letters into four symbols, e.g. บ ป ผ พ ภ to b p ph ph bh, which is ambiguous. (Perhaps the ideas is that aspirated sounds should have an 'h'.) Or does the graphic system actually handle native words? An example of such systems is 'Suvarnbhumi'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am guessing that the tranliteration may be too difficult. After a couple of years of discussion, the soc.culture.thai language group agreed upon a scheme to represent alphabets, vowels, and tones that the group then used to communicate in Thai before Thai scripts were available on the Internet. Info below is from the soc.culture.th archive posted on 10/31/1996:

LANGUAGE FAQ

This part describes information on language and linguistics.

------------------------------

Subject: L.1) The de facto transcription scheme for soc.culture.thai

The transcription scheme was put together by Khun Wirote Aroonmanakun

([email protected]) with great input from many SCT folks,

notably a consonant table from Khun Rob Reed ([email protected]) and

a vowel table from Khun Parames Laosinchai ([email protected]).

44 CONSONANTS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

k kh kh kh kh kh ng

j ch ch s ch y

d t th th th n

b p ph f ph f ph m

y r l w s s s h l ? h

Final Sounds

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obstruent Endings: k or g, t or d, p or b

Soronant Endings: ng n m y w

Tone Markers

~~~~~~~~~~~~

- for normal tone / 0

' for low tone / 1

" for falling tone / 2

^ for high tone / 3

+ for rising tone / 4

Basic.Vowels

~~~~~~~~~~~~

a as in ka' (estimate)

aa as in kaa- (crow)

i as in ti' (blame)

ii as in tii- (hit)

U as in ?U' (shit)

UU as in mUU- (hand)

u as in du' (scold)

uu as in duu- (look)

e as in te' (kick)

ee as in thee- (pour)

A as in lA^ (and)

AA as in lAA- (look)

o as in to^ (table)

oo as in to- (big)

O as in kO" (island)

OO as in rOO- (wait)

E as in lE^ (dirty)

EE as in rEE- (Belch)

Compound Vowels

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ua as in yua^ (angry)

uaa as in tuaa- (body)

ia as in pria^ (tight)

iaa as in miaa- (wife)

Ua (no example)

Uaa as in rUaa- (ship)

Excess Vowels (sa'ra'kEEn-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ay or ai as in nay- or nai- (in)

aw or au as in daw- or dau- (guess)

Perhaps this scheme can also be used here when Thai words are spelled out in English?...

mrreality · September 18, 2005

Another classic example, is the spelling of the name 'Ple', which is pronounced ''Bun'.

This is because Thais pronounce 'apple' as 'appun', so they immediately think that 'Ple' is 'Bun'.

Crazy!

loong · September 18, 2005

I have never heard of anyone called Ple

Which part of the world does this come from?

newworks · September 18, 2005

I have never heard of anyone called Ple
Which part of the world does this come from?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"ple", as in "apple" is a very common female nickname. i can`t believe you haven`t met at least one!

newworks · September 18, 2005

On a pedantic note, most of what I see is transcriptions, i.e. they represent the sound. I much regret that I have never seen serious use of an accurate transliteration - i.e. a representation of the spelling - of Thai that attempts to handle native words in addition to Indic words. The problem is that people want to cram five letters into four symbols, e.g. บ ป ผ พ ภ to b p ph ph bh, which is ambiguous. (Perhaps the ideas is that aspirated sounds should have an 'h'.) Or does the graphic system actually handle native words? An example of such systems is 'Suvarnbhumi'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I am guessing that the tranliteration may be too difficult. After a couple of years of discussion, the soc.culture.thai language group agreed upon a scheme to represent alphabets, vowels, and tones that the group then used to communicate in Thai before Thai scripts were available on the Internet. Info below is from the soc.culture.th archive posted on 10/31/1996:

LANGUAGE FAQ

This part describes information on language and linguistics.

------------------------------

Subject: L.1) The de facto transcription scheme for soc.culture.thai

The transcription scheme was put together by Khun Wirote Aroonmanakun

([email protected]) with great input from many SCT folks,

notably a consonant table from Khun Rob Reed ([email protected]) and

a vowel table from Khun Parames Laosinchai ([email protected]).

44 CONSONANTS

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

k kh kh kh kh kh ng

j ch ch s ch y

d t th th th n

d t th th th n

b p ph f ph f ph m

y r l w s s s h l ? h

Final Sounds

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Obstruent Endings: k or g, t or d, p or b

Soronant Endings: ng n m y w

Tone Markers

~~~~~~~~~~~~

- for normal tone / 0

' for low tone / 1

" for falling tone / 2

^ for high tone / 3

+ for rising tone / 4

Basic.Vowels

~~~~~~~~~~~~

a as in ka' (estimate)

aa as in kaa- (crow)

i as in ti' (blame)

ii as in tii- (hit)

U as in ?U' (shit)

UU as in mUU- (hand)

u as in du' (scold)

uu as in duu- (look)

e as in te' (kick)

ee as in thee- (pour)

A as in lA^ (and)

AA as in lAA- (look)

o as in to^ (table)

oo as in to- (big)

O as in kO" (island)

OO as in rOO- (wait)

E as in lE^ (dirty)

EE as in rEE- (Belch)

Compound Vowels

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ua as in yua^ (angry)

uaa as in tuaa- (body)

ia as in pria^ (tight)

iaa as in miaa- (wife)

Ua (no example)

Uaa as in rUaa- (ship)

Excess Vowels (sa'ra'kEEn-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ay or ai as in nay- or nai- (in)

aw or au as in daw- or dau- (guess)

Perhaps this scheme can also be used here when Thai words are spelled out in English?...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

transliteration is for the birds. if you want to speak and pronounce thai correctly, learn and memorize the alphabet, the tones, and the little rules, and you will be in good shape. otherwise, depending on just transliteration and your years is a recipe for poor pronuncuation.

gintOnic · September 18, 2005

But the main reason I agreed with Bambi is because I wanted to finish the discussion,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Mr.Farang, same here - we were not fighting, were we? (by the way ไมคูล์ or ไมคุล์ does look strange to me)

What's that all about? We certainly did not get two independent opinions did we now :-)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

emm... not sure what you mean

gintOnic

gintOnic · September 18, 2005

How many suggestions for "Keith" written in Thai?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

loong,

As I have seen and known, I think your name in Thai should be written as คีธ, although this spelling can't represent a correct pronounciation if you ask a Thai to read the word - but as you already know we don't have 'th' sound in Thai.

For me, I had been practising how to pronounce 'th' sound a long time ago and I could say your name correctly (I believe) However, I still have some problem saying a word ended with 'th' then 's'. For example, to say 'monTHS' - too much tongue using for me!

So How do you write your name in Thai by the way?

gintOnic

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"oil" Or "oy"?

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