Afghanistan, Iran condemn Quran burning in US

[Crushdepth]

The issue here seems to be that one group of religious fundementalists are trying to bait another bunch of religious fundementalists

Exactly, and we are better off ignoring them all.

[JUDAS]

Excellent post bonobo.

[Steely Dan]

The issue here seems to be that one group of religious fundementalists are trying to bait another bunch of religious fundementalists

Exactly, and we are better off ignoring them all.

If it were as simple as that there would indeed be little to comment about. Perhaps the Pastor is just an extremist crackpot who hates Muslims, though if taken at his word his beef is not with any ethnic or religious group, but with Islamic law encroaching upon U.S law and the radicals pushing this agenda.

Whatever his motives the Pastor may soon be past tense, which would indeed put his claimed justifications into even sharper focus. (See link).

http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/2011/03/24/islamic-group-places-2-2-million-bounty-on-head-of-koran-burning-forida-pastor/

A provocative act invites reprocussions but it may also get people thinking. In the civilised world (Thanks Christopher) we have built up our laws and constitutions over a long period and the Universal declaration of human rights spells out the values they are based on. Iran has just protested against a human rights concil resolution to monitor these rights within Iran. Iran has always been of the oppinion that these universal rights are incompatible with Sharia law. So what elements of universal human rights clash with Sharia law, indeed would human rights in the U.S be compromised by the application of Sharia law?

So why burn the Koran and not the equally bloodthirsty Torah? Perhaps this is down to a presumptive 'right' to usurp existing norms on the part of radical Islam which is not present with other faiths.

[geriatrickid]

I thought this was about the burning of the Koran, not about what what other countries do with books, flags, monuments etc.

I would think the 'western world' would consider themselves to be above such things but if you think it is ok then that's a matter for you. I personally don't think it is ok for the desecration of religious monuments etc, whether they be heritage listed or not.

This thread is about the burning of the Koran and I do think it should be condemned.

No. It is about Iran and Mr. Karzai getting excited over the act of one man who is burning a copy of the Koran. My point was that Mr. Karzai and the government are hypocrites. They did not speak out when holy Hindu shrines and the Buddhas were destroyed. A mass produced current copy of a book does not hold the same historical or cultural significance. The book can be replaced. the destruction of historic and valuable pieces of history could not. Your knee jerk defense of the corrupt Karzai and the despotic iranians is amusing and at least consistent with your support of Iran.

[geriatrickid]

The issue here seems to be that one group of religious fundementalists are trying to bait another bunch of religious fundementalists. That Iran and Afghanistan have condemned this is hardly surprising - what seems odd is that they are singled out since the US has also condemned it.

You obviously did not understand the statements made by Karzai and Iran. Iran stated that the act was "Blasphemous". Blasphemy in Iran is punishable by stoning to death. Karzai demanded that the Koran burner be "brought to justice". In Afghanistan, bringing to justice of a Koran burner also involves the death penalty. The US federal government does not impose the death penalty for Koran burning, nor for Bible burning for that matter. basically, Iran and karzai are calling for the state sanctioned execution of the Koran burner. Are you comfortable with that? The Iranians regulartly burn the flags of the USA, Israel and the UK. The presidents of the USA have burned in efficgy and there are regular chants of Death to America after Friday prayers at the main mosque in Tehran. Has the Iranian government ever charged anyone with inciting violence or making death threats? Why is it ok for the Iranians to encourage the murder of Americans and the President of the USA? Why is it acceptable for thousands of Iranians to gather outside a mosque singing the praises of raining down missiles upon the UK?

It is all about the Iranians being liars and hypocrites. As for Karzai, it is just a matter of time before he's dead at the hands of a fellow muslim.

[geriatrickid]

Did you read my post #9????? Or indeed the link it was taken from which you have quoted back????

Yes I did. I suggest you read your linked article too. read it closely. Here, let me help you;

Iran, the neighbouring nation also ruled by Muslim clerics was one of the fist countries to add its voice to world protests on Tuesday condemning the destruction of Buddhist statues by the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and called on the United Nations to take serious action against this ruling "grouplet".

"Strangely, certain Taleban-led individuals, calling themselves "cleric"', have ordered destruction of ancient sites of the mankind society, citing blasphemy and idolising as reasons," a statement released by Iran's Cultural Heritage Organisation (CHO) said.

But the statement failed to say that like their Afghan colleagues, Iranian clerics, when they took over from the former Monarchy in 1979, had plans to destroy all vestiges of pre-Islam Iran, including the monuments of Persepolis, but were prevented by the people, attached to its ancient history and civilisation.

The fact of the matter is that the Iranian government DID not come out against the destruction of the Buddhas. The CHO was an arms length entity that had no authority to speak on behalf of the iranian government.

Hoisted by your own petard it seems.

[Orac]

Did you read my post #9????? Or indeed the link it was taken from which you have quoted back????

Yes I did. I suggest you read your linked article too. read it closely. Here, let me help you;

Iran, the neighbouring nation also ruled by Muslim clerics was one of the fist countries to add its voice to world protests on Tuesday condemning the destruction of Buddhist statues by the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and called on the United Nations to take serious action against this ruling "grouplet".

"Strangely, certain Taleban-led individuals, calling themselves "cleric"', have ordered destruction of ancient sites of the mankind society, citing blasphemy and idolising as reasons," a statement released by Iran's Cultural Heritage Organisation (CHO) said.

But the statement failed to say that like their Afghan colleagues, Iranian clerics, when they took over from the former Monarchy in 1979, had plans to destroy all vestiges of pre-Islam Iran, including the monuments of Persepolis, but were prevented by the people, attached to its ancient history and civilisation.

The fact of the matter is that the Iranian government DID not come out against the destruction of the Buddhas. The CHO was an arms length entity that had no authority to speak on behalf of the iranian government.

Hoisted by your own petard it seems.

I reread the article again, written incidentally by a organisation with no love of the current regime in Iran, and strangely enough it still said:

"Iran, the neighbouring nation also ruled by Muslim clerics was one of the fist countries to add its voice to world protests on Tuesday condemning the destruction of Buddhist statues"

which pretty seems pretty clear to me. That there is also a statement from Iran's Cultural Heritage Organisition just seems to back this up since they are a department adminstered and funded by the government of Iran.

Also I found this:

"The two massive Bamiyan Buddhas, carved into a sandstone cliff near the provincial capital in central Afghanistan, stand 50 meters (165 feet) and 34.5 meters (114 feet) tall and were built around the second century.

Appeals for their preservation have come from the United States, France, Germany, Thailand, Japan, Sri Lanka, Iran, Pakistan, Germany, Russia, India and UN Secretary General Kofi Annan."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0301-04.htm

I am not sure why you think Iran would have done otherwise as it was very active against the Taliban before the US got involved with strong support to the Northern Alliance that opposed them.

"Following the emergence of the Taliban and their harsh treatment of Afghanistan's Shi'a minority, Iran stepped up assistance to the Northern Alliance. Relations with the Taliban deteriorated further in 1998 after Taliban forces seized the Iranian consulate in Mazari Sharif and executed Iranian diplomats.

Following this incident, Iran almost went to war with the Taliban regions of Afghanistan but intervention by the United Nations Security Council and the United States prevented an imminent Iranian invasion."

Taken from Wikipedia (not the most reliable of sources I admit!)

[chooka]

Islam also complains about xmas and easter being celebrated in schools in places like Australia because they find it offensive so it has been removed from a lot of schools to keep the peace with them. Before long Christianity will go underground just to keep the peace.

[Steely Dan]

Islam also complains about xmas and easter being celebrated in schools in places like Australia because they find it offensive so it has been removed from a lot of schools to keep the peace with them. Before long Christianity will go underground just to keep the peace.

In a ludicrous bout of foot stamping they also complained about the logo for the London 2012 olympics claiming 2012 resembled the word Zion.

[Wallaby]

I thought this was about the burning of the Koran, not about what what other countries do with books, flags, monuments etc.

I would think the 'western world' would consider themselves to be above such things but if you think it is ok then that's a matter for you. I personally don't think it is ok for the desecration of religious monuments etc, whether they be heritage listed or not.

This thread is about the burning of the Koran and I do think it should be condemned.

No. It is about Iran and Mr. Karzai getting excited over the act of one man who is burning a copy of the Koran. My point was that Mr. Karzai and the government are hypocrites. They did not speak out when holy Hindu shrines and the Buddhas were destroyed. A mass produced current copy of a book does not hold the same historical or cultural significance. The book can be replaced. the destruction of historic and valuable pieces of history could not. Your knee jerk defense of the corrupt Karzai and the despotic iranians is amusing and at least consistent with your support of Iran.

Please point out my 'knee jerk defence of the corrupt Karzai'.

Please re read my post and you will find it is quite obvious I am not defending anyone. I personally don't think it is ok for the desecration of religious monuments etc, whether they be heritage listed or not.

So, do you think the burning of the Koran is ok or not?

[Jingthing]

Islam also complains about xmas and easter being celebrated in schools in places like Australia because they find it offensive so it has been removed from a lot of schools to keep the peace with them. Before long Christianity will go underground just to keep the peace.

I would support them if they also want their holidays recognized in schools with the same respect as the Christian ones. There is nothing wrong with the world learning about Islam, Muslims are here to stay and a large portion of them are peace loving. There isn't much hope for world peace if we can't live together with Muslims. The non-radical elements of Islam should be engaged rather than demonizing all Muslims. There is a lot I don't like about the manifestations of Islamic culture in today's world but Crusades aren't an option.

Edited March 26, 2011 by Jingthing

[Wallaby]

The issue here seems to be that one group of religious fundementalists are trying to bait another bunch of religious fundementalists. That Iran and Afghanistan have condemned this is hardly surprising - what seems odd is that they are singled out since the US has also condemned it.

You obviously did not understand the statements made by Karzai and Iran. Iran stated that the act was "Blasphemous". Blasphemy in Iran is punishable by stoning to death. Karzai demanded that the Koran burner be "brought to justice". In Afghanistan, bringing to justice of a Koran burner also involves the death penalty. The US federal government does not impose the death penalty for Koran burning, nor for Bible burning for that matter. basically, Iran and karzai are calling for the state sanctioned execution of the Koran burner. Are you comfortable with that? The Iranians regulartly burn the flags of the USA, Israel and the UK. The presidents of the USA have burned in efficgy and there are regular chants of Death to America after Friday prayers at the main mosque in Tehran. Has the Iranian government ever charged anyone with inciting violence or making death threats? Why is it ok for the Iranians to encourage the murder of Americans and the President of the USA? Why is it acceptable for thousands of Iranians to gather outside a mosque singing the praises of raining down missiles upon the UK?

It is all about the Iranians being liars and hypocrites. As for Karzai, it is just a matter of time before he's dead at the hands of a fellow muslim.

You really are taking a huge leap to think that they are calling for the Koran burner to be put to death.

We have had calls from the US to have their citizens 'brought to justice' here in Australia. The most recent one being a man charged for murder of his wife whilst here in Australia. He is from a state in the US that has the death penalty for this crime and they asked that he be brought to justice here. Do you think that meant we should put him to death? We certainly didn't think that..

But again, this thread isn't about how bad the Afghans and Iranians are, this is about a lunatic burning the Koran in the US and that is something I certainly do not support and I wouldn't go supporting it just because I don't like the countries that have complained about it.

[TAWP]

Did Iran or Karzai speak out when the Taliban destroyed the 3 ancient Buddhas at the designated world heritage site? Did the condemn the desecration?

Exactly.

[chuckd]

You really are taking a huge leap to think that they are calling for the Koran burner to be put to death.

You might want to refresh your memory by reading the following article. This was the infamous cartoon caper.

THOUSANDS OF AFGHAN STUDENTS PROTEST DANISH PROPHET MUHAMMAD CARTOON, DUTCH MOVIE

Sunday, March 09, 2008

AP

JALALABAD, Afghanistan — Thousands of Afghan students chanted slogans and burned Danish and Dutch flags Sunday in the latest in a series of protests over perceived insults against Islam.

The protesters in the eastern city of Jalalabad denounced an upcoming Dutch film that reportedly criticizes Islam's holy book, the Koran. They also condemned Danish newspapers' recent republications of a cartoon that depicted the Prophet Muhammad wearing a bomb-shaped turban.

The several thousand demonstrators shouted slogans against Denmark and the Netherlands. They also chanted "Death to America" and "Long live Al Qaeda."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,336253,00.html#ixzz1HiWatCxG

[Wallaby]

Yes I'm well aware of that. Perhaps we should kill Julian Assange because some US 'celebrities' have called for it.

So what is your view on the burning of the Koran, do you agree with it or not?

[chuckd]

Yes I'm well aware of that. Perhaps we should kill Julian Assange because some US 'celebrities' have called for it.

So what is your view on the burning of the Koran, do you agree with it or not?

I'm not a Muslm so I really think this is all much ado about nothing.

I'm a Christian. When I first entered Saudi Arabia in 1981, I had my Bible confiscated by the Customs inspector in Jeddah. The Bible is forbidden there. I lived with that, so let them live with one crackpot burning a Koran or two.

Perhaps you are onto something with that Assange idea.

[Steely Dan]

I'll say one thing about the reaction to cartoon drawing and Quran burning - It's basically a control tantrum to get our liberal (ahem) intelligensia to act to curtail the freedoms we have. I doubt there is even 10% of the outrage shown by western Countries with respect to the murder of scores of Pakistani or Coptic Christians in their churches as was exhibited by Muslim Countries over a bit of book burning or cartoon drawing.

[animatic]

The issue here seems to be that one group of religious fundementalists are trying to bait another bunch of religious fundementalists

Exactly, and we are better off ignoring them all.

Exactly: deplore then ignore.

[Naam]

So what if Iran did not recognize the government of Afghanistan. Did the Iranian government condemn the descreation of the world heritage site? Did the Iranian condemn the activity? The US and other western governments did not recognize the Taliban either and yet they spoke up.

the U.S. and other western (and arab) governments supported Saddam Hussein with billions in cash and billions in weapons when he attacked Iran causing on both sides casualties exceeding one million. the defenders of this action are frothing around their mouths about the desecration of a world heritage site.

[Ulysses G.]

How about apologists for the brutal regime in Iran trying to make excuses for something that there are simply no excuses for?

[Steely Dan]

Yes I'm well aware of that. Perhaps we should kill Julian Assange because some US 'celebrities' have called for it.

So what is your view on the burning of the Koran, do you agree with it or not?

I certainly don't agree with burning the Koran but I certainly do agree with having an open discussion as to what may have motivated this action without taking the PC expedient of just dismissing it as an isolated act of a crackpot.

[chooka]

Yes I'm well aware of that. Perhaps we should kill Julian Assange because some US 'celebrities' have called for it.

So what is your view on the burning of the Koran, do you agree with it or not?

I certainly don't agree with burning the Koran but I certainly do agree with having an open discussion as to what may have motivated this action without taking the PC expedient of just dismissing it as an isolated act of a crackpot.

It is quite disturbing that muslims worship Hitler and his ways as depicted here. How they believe murder and mayhem is a normal natural way of life. Islam is not a religion it is a cult.

[Jingthing]

Referring to the Abrahamic religions, radical extremist fundamentalists of all three (Muslim, Christian, and Jewish), are quite scary. You can find disturbing holy book passages in all three, and also Christianity includes the old and new testaments. You can also find messages of love, hope, and peace in all three.

So it's not fair to single out the inflammatory texts in the Quran.

But it is also true there are probably a significant percentage of global Muslims who are sympathetic to the more radical elements of Islam, even though the number of actual active terrorists is quite small, it really can't be denied that fundamentalist Islam does directly conflict with classic liberal western democratic values.

A great example is how difficult (sometime fatal) it is for a Muslim in an Islamic state to convert out of Islam.

How can we change the more offensive to most of us parts of modern Islamic culture? We can't. If that's going to happen, they'll have to do that themselves.

I still think other than keeping armies funded, it couldn't hurt for the non-Islamic world to make more connections with the non-radical elements of the Islamic world. Because even if some of them want to kill all non-Muslims, we can't kill all of them (sorry if that sounds harsh).

Edited March 27, 2011 by Jingthing

[geriatrickid]

So what if Iran did not recognize the government of Afghanistan. Did the Iranian government condemn the descreation of the world heritage site? Did the Iranian condemn the activity? The US and other western governments did not recognize the Taliban either and yet they spoke up.

the U.S. and other western (and arab) governments supported Saddam Hussein with billions in cash and billions in weapons when he attacked Iran causing on both sides casualties exceeding one million. the defenders of this action are frothing around their mouths about the desecration of a world heritage site.

The Iran-Iraq war was the culmination of long held rivalries between Sunni and Shiite, Arab and Farsi. It was not about some nut getting free media access by burning a Koran. I don't quite see the link you are trying to make. It is about Iran and Karzai making public demands that the lone Koran burner be "punished". I don't think the koran burning compares to the destruction of world heritage sites in its enormity or lasting impact, do you?

The limited support for Husein was because he served as a means to keep expansionist Iran from invading the surrounding Gulf states. iran has been stirring up sh*t in he region for centuries as it sought to expand its empire. People change over time and if Hussein not invaded Kuwait, he probably would still be alive today.

If one uses your twisted tangent, when Hussein gassed the Kurds, Turkey the current backer of freedom flotillas to help "oppressed" people did not say much did it? Now I don't want to tread on anyone's sensitivities, but for some of us gassing people just isn't the right thing to do. And yet, Turkey didn't do very much except move to block retreating Kurdish refugees pushing them back into the zone of conflict.

[Naam]

The Iran-Iraq war was the culmination of long held rivalries between Sunni and Shiite, Arab and Farsi.

i suggest some basic education by googling Shat al-Arab!

Edited March 27, 2011 by Naam

[Steely Dan]

Referring to the Abrahamic religions, radical extremist fundamentalists of all three (Muslim, Christian, and Jewish), are quite scary. You can find disturbing holy book passages in all three, and also Christianity includes the old and new testaments. You can also find messages of love, hope, and peace in all three.

So it's not fair to single out the inflammatory texts in the Quran.

Jingthing, I will grant you there are psychotic, violent and racist elements in the 'holy' books of all Abrahamic religions. What I find utterly repugnant is anybody attempting to usurp 21st century laws with their literal interpretation of scripture. Lets not beat around the bush though. If fundamentalist Christians were blowing up schools which taught evolution, murdering doctors who performed abortions on a weekly basis, desecrating the graveyards and blowing up worshippers of other faiths and murdering people working on the Christian sabbath then I would conclude Christian fundamentalism was a problem and we might be talking about someone burning the new testament.

[geriatrickid]

The Iran-Iraq war was the culmination of long held rivalries between Sunni and Shiite, Arab and Farsi.

i suggest some basic education by googling Shat al-Arab!

Do you realize that you just substantiated my point? The dispute over that waterway dates back centuries. It was the Iranians that started the armed confontations in the 1980's as they sought to claim a region that the Iranians saw as theirs. What do you call the Iranian occupation of 3 islands that belong to the UAE? What do you call Iran's invasion of Azerbajian in 1946? The key events of Shi'ite identity all took place in Iraq. Ali was assassinated near Najaf, where the city rose around his shrine. Hussein died at Karbala, which then became the twin holy city to Najaf. Iran as the primary Shiite state sees itself as the leader of the Shiite community against the Sunni majority.

Instead of telling me to google something, why don't you go back goggle the subject yourself. The fact remains that the Iranian position on the Koran burner is hypocritical andan attempt to call for the death of people for an act that is hardly a capital offense outside the muslim world.

[Jingthing]

Referring to the Abrahamic religions, radical extremist fundamentalists of all three (Muslim, Christian, and Jewish), are quite scary. You can find disturbing holy book passages in all three, and also Christianity includes the old and new testaments. You can also find messages of love, hope, and peace in all three.

So it's not fair to single out the inflammatory texts in the Quran.

Jingthing, I will grant you there are psychotic, violent and racist elements in the 'holy' books of all Abrahamic religions. What I find utterly repugnant is anybody attempting to usurp 21st century laws with their literal interpretation of scripture. Lets not beat around the bush though. If fundamentalist Christians were blowing up schools which taught evolution, murdering doctors who performed abortions on a weekly basis, desecrating the graveyards and blowing up worshippers of other faiths and murdering people working on the Christian sabbath then I would conclude Christian fundamentalism was a problem and we might be talking about someone burning the new testament.

I think we're on similar pages, but I am trying to be realistic about the reality now that Islam is the world's leading religion. Either we learn to live together or we're all doomed. Well we're all doomed anyway, but you know what I mean. Because of the importance of Islam, I really do think the basics of Islamic religion and culture should be taught in schools everywhere, and children should be taught not to automatically think ill of people just because they are Muslim, as so many are moderate people just wanting to have happy lives like everyone else.

Edited March 27, 2011 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

The Iran-Iraq war was the culmination of long held rivalries between Sunni and Shiite, Arab and Farsi.

i suggest some basic education by googling Shat al-Arab!

Do you realize that you just substantiated my point? The dispute over that waterway dates back centuries. It was the Iranians that started the armed confontations in the 1980's as they sought to claim a region that the Iranians saw as theirs. What do you call the Iranian occupation of 3 islands that belong to the UAE? What do you call Iran's invasion of Azerbajian in 1946? The key events of Shi'ite identity all took place in Iraq. Ali was assassinated near Najaf, where the city rose around his shrine. Hussein died at Karbala, which then became the twin holy city to Najaf. Iran as the primary Shiite state sees itself as the leader of the Shiite community against the Sunni majority.

Instead of telling me to google something, why don't you go back goggle the subject yourself.

Maybe geriatrickid is not the one that needs some "basic education".

Edited March 27, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[bangkokeddy]

"Wherever they burn books, in the end will also burn human beings." - Heinrich Heine

Essayist, journalist and poet Christian Johann Heinrich Heine is considered one of the most significant German romantic poets. Born into a family of assimilated German Jews in 1797, Heine's father was a merchant, and his mother the daughter of a physician.

...

In 1933, copies of Heine's books were among the many burned on Berlin's Opernplatz. To commemorate the event, one of the most famous lines from Heine's 1821 play Almansor is now engraved at the site: "Dort, wo man Bücher verbrennt, verbrennt man am Ende auch Menschen." ("Where they burn books, they will, in the end, burn human beings too."). In the play, this is a reference to the burning of the Quran during the Spanish Inquisition in an effort to eradicate the Moors from the Iberian Peninsula, which had been a major center of medieval Islamic culture."

http://www.bookbrowse.com/quotes/detail/index.cfm?quote_number=138