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Posted

Group slams Thailand's alleged cluster bomb use

PHNOM PENH, April 6, 2011 (AFP) - A global campaign group on Wednesday condemned Thailand's alleged use of cluster munitions against Cambodia during recent heavy fighting on their shared border.

The Cluster Munition Coalition (CMC) said it had investigated and verified Cambodian government claims that the deadly weapons had landed on its territory in four days of unrest between the neighbours in early February.

The group, which campaigns against the bombs, also said the Thai ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva had confirmed the use of cluster munitions in a meeting on Tuesday.

"The ambassador said Thailand used cluster munitions 'in self-defence', using the principles of 'necessity, proportionality and in compliance with the military code of conduct'," it said in a statement.

"It's appalling that any country would resort to using cluster munitions after the international community banned them," added CMC director Laura Cheeseman.

Thai officials were not immediately able to confirm or deny the ambassador's comments.

In August last year the Convention on Cluster Munitions came into effect, requiring signatories to stop the use of the weapons, but neither Thailand nor Cambodia have signed the treaty.

CMC said the Thai-Cambodian conflict was the first confirmed use of cluster munitions anywhere in the world since the convention became international law.

It added that a cluster bomb had killed two Cambodian policemen during the February clashes and warned that thousands of people remained at risk from unexploded bomblets in several villages along the northern border.

Launched from the ground or dropped from the air, cluster bombs split open before impact to scatter multiple bomblets over a wide area. Many fail to explode and can lie hidden for decades.

afplogo.jpg

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2011-04-06

Posted
"It's appalling that any country would resort to using cluster munitions after the international community banned them," added CMC director Laura Cheeseman.

It's interesting which countries have (or more importantly have not) ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

Ofcourse the US haven't ratified. Do they ever ratify an international convention? Also, Australia is not on the list. Of SEA countries, Laos is the only country to have ratified it.

Posted

Cambodia - who still has not cleared all its land-mines and always trying to say - poor us and get grants, backing from NGO's and UN etc. Yet right now they are building roads and shipping arms and munitions into the border area. No point crying foul. Rules of engagement don't have to be argued. People in glass houses etc ... ermm.gif

Posted
"It's appalling that any country would resort to using cluster munitions after the international community banned them," added CMC director Laura Cheeseman.

It's interesting which countries have (or more importantly have not) ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

Ofcourse the US haven't ratified. Do they ever ratify an international convention? Also, Australia is not on the list. Of SEA countries, Laos is the only country to have ratified it.

Rather more important than those who have ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions is those who have used them, especially after the denials.

Posted (edited)
"It's appalling that any country would resort to using cluster munitions after the international community banned them," added CMC director Laura Cheeseman.

It's interesting which countries have (or more importantly have not) ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

Ofcourse the US haven't ratified. Do they ever ratify an international convention? Also, Australia is not on the list. Of SEA countries, Laos is the only country to have ratified it.

Rather more important than those who have ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions is those who have used them

Like the Americans and the British...

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hrw.org%2Fes%2Fnews%2F2003%2F12%2F11%2Festados-unidos-cientos-de-muertes-de-civiles-en-irak-pudieron-prevenirse&act=url

with the UK ratifying the convention just last year

.

Edited by Buchholz
Posted

Cambodia - who still has not cleared all its land-mines and always trying to say - poor us and get grants, backing from NGO's and UN etc. Yet right now they are building roads and shipping arms and munitions into the border area. No point crying foul. Rules of engagement don't have to be argued. People in glass houses etc ... ermm.gif

People in glass houses shouldn't fire rockets into civilian villages...

r806077240.jpg

A house burns in a Thai village near a 11th-century Preah Vihear temple at the border between Thailand and Cambodia February 4, 2011.

REUTERS

Posted
"It's appalling that any country would resort to using cluster munitions after the international community banned them," added CMC director Laura Cheeseman.

It's interesting which countries have (or more importantly have not) ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

Ofcourse the US haven't ratified. Do they ever ratify an international convention? Also, Australia is not on the list. Of SEA countries, Laos is the only country to have ratified it.

Rather more important than those who have ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions is those who have used them

Like the Americans and the British...

http://translate.goo...venirse&act=url

with the UK ratifying the convention just last year

.

I'm British. It doesn't mean that I condone the government allowing the use of cluster bombs in Kosovo or anywhere else. I particularly do not like the Brits and Yanks colluding to store american cluster bombs on British soil to get round the treaty. But this is not about the Brits or the Yanks (who still haven't ratified the treaty) - its about the Thai Army firing Cluster Bomb shells at Cambodia and then denying it.

Posted
"It's appalling that any country would resort to using cluster munitions after the international community banned them," added CMC director Laura Cheeseman.

It's interesting which countries have (or more importantly have not) ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions.

Ofcourse the US haven't ratified. Do they ever ratify an international convention? Also, Australia is not on the list. Of SEA countries, Laos is the only country to have ratified it.

Rather more important than those who have ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions is those who have used them

Like the Americans and the British...

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hrw.org%2Fes%2Fnews%2F2003%2F12%2F11%2Festados-unidos-cientos-de-muertes-de-civiles-en-irak-pudieron-prevenirse&act=url

with the UK ratifying the convention just last year

.

You have already been informed the issue is not about who has signed the Convention.The issue is who has been lying through their teeth.

Posted

This kind of explains the reluctance to have mediators at the border.

Nail......Head...... :ph34r:

Posted

You have already been informed the issue is not about who has signed the Convention.The issue is who has been lying through their teeth.

:cheesy:

And, of course, it is you that determines what the issues are?

That's a good one. :D

Posted

Thailand used banned munitions in temple clash, say activists

By Supalak Ganjanakhundee

The Nation

Geneva-based activists yesterday accused Thailand of using cluster munitions during a clash with Cambodia at the border area near Preah Vihear Temple in February.

Based on two separate on-site investigations, the Cluster Munition Coalition (CMC) has concluded that Thailand used the weapons on Cambodian territory during the border conflict.

This is the first alleged use of such weapons in the world since the 2008 Convention on Cluster Munitions entered force and became binding international law, according to the CMC's statement. "It's appalling that any country would resort to using cluster munitions after the international community banned them," said CMC director Laura Cheeseman.

Cheeseman told The Nation she had also received confirmation on the use of cluster munitions from the Thai ambassador to the United Nations in Geneva, Sihasak Phuangketkeow, during a meeting on April 5 Monday.

In the meeting, the ambassador verbally confirmed that 155mm dual-purpose improved conventional munitions (DPICM) were used. These are cluster bombs, she said.

The ambassador said Thailand used cluster munitions "in self-defence", using the principles of "necessity [and] proportionality and in compliance with the military code of conduct".

He alleged heavy use of rocket fire by Cambodian forces against civilian targets in Satisuk, in Si Sa Ket's Khukhan district. Sihasak could not be reached for comment yesterday.

The border skirmish between Thailand and Cambodia took place in the disputed areas adjacent to Preah Vihear, near Si Sa Ket's Kantharalak district. The clash claimed about 10 lives, including civilians on both sides.

An official from the Second Army Region rejected the cluster-bomb accusation, saying the Army had not used such a weapon during its clash with Cambodia.

In February and April, CMC members conducted two separate missions to cluster-bomb-contaminated areas in Cambodia, including Svay Chrum village, Sen Chey village and around the Preah Vihear Temple hill. They claim to have seen unexploded munitions and fragmentation damage they believed were caused by cluster munitions. Norwegian People's Aid confirmed that unexploded M42/M46 and M85-type DPICM sub-munitions had been found.

Sister Denise Coghlan, a CMC leader who took part in the first research mission, said: "These cluster munitions have robbed two men of their lives, two more have lost their arms and a further five were injured. The area must be cleared immediately to prevent more suffering. Cambodia must make every effort to ensure the safety of civilians."

Cambodia and Thailand are not among the 108 countries to have signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions but each has joined the 1997 Mine Ban Treaty. Both countries participated in the Oslo Process to negotiate the Convention on Cluster Munitions and attended its First Meeting of States Parties in Laos last November.

"This conflict should spur both countries to take urgent action to denounce the weapons and join the ban treaty," Cheeseman said.

nationlogo.jpg

-- The Nation 2011-04-07

Posted

The Thais lying, never :whistling:

whoda thunk it????

Who will the army pressure this time to change the evidence, the DSI again :rolleyes: Oh wait, they can't, it is an international matter, unlike the murder of unarmed civilians last year where the army can pressure the investigators.

Posted

Like the Americans and the British...

http://translate.goo...venirse&act=url

with the UK ratifying the convention just last year

You have already been informed the issue is not about who has signed the Convention.The issue is who has been lying through their teeth.

:cheesy:

And, of course, it is you that determines what the issues are?

That's a good one. :D

As we are discussing the OP, in which the CMC condemned the Thai armies use of cluster munition, the issue is clear and has already been determined. Your post/s are irrelevant to the OP. What's funny about that?

Posted

:cheesy:

And, of course, it is you that determines what the issues are?

That's a good one. :D

Just refer to the topic subject matter and avoid personalisation.

If you have evidence to refute the charge that the Thai military has lied on the issue of cluster bombs, you are welcome to provide it.

Posted
Cambodia - who still has not cleared all its land-mines and always trying to say

:unsure: Many of which were planted by Thailand of course.

The Thai-Cambodian border and the Western area of Cambodia being the most heavily mined place in the country.

Posted (edited)

Like the Americans and the British...

http://translate.goo...venirse&act=url

with the UK ratifying the convention just last year

You have already been informed the issue is not about who has signed the Convention.The issue is who has been lying through their teeth.

:cheesy:

And, of course, it is you that determines what the issues are?

That's a good one. :D

As we are discussing the OP, in which the CMC condemned the Thai armies use of cluster munition, the issue is clear and has already been determined. Your post/s are irrelevant to the OP. What's funny about that?

Because it was only posted with antagonistic intent that ignores that other posters besides myself were commenting on the same aspect. The same one you replied to. It's also because it comes from someone who should be the last poster who should be commenting on, let alone determining, what is and what is not an issue in a thread as his own comments are so frequently inconsequential to the topic, let alone a side issue.

.

Edited by Buchholz
Posted

:cheesy:

And, of course, it is you that determines what the issues are?

That's a good one. :D

Just refer to the topic subject matter and avoid personalisation.

Words to live by.

Posted

:cheesy:

And, of course, it is you that determines what the issues are?

That's a good one. :D

Just refer to the topic subject matter and avoid personalisation.

Words to live by.

So are you going to respond or avoid the issue ? Has the Thai army lied on the cluster bomb issue or not?

Posted

Just refer to the topic subject matter and avoid personalisation.

Words to live by.

So are you going to respond or avoid the issue ? Has the Thai army lied on the cluster bomb issue or not?

It might help the discussion if you frame your questions to someone around something that someone actually stated one way or another in a post.

It's part of that non-antagonistic aspect I mentioned earlier. ;)

I actually think it's terrific that the Ambassador spoke out on the issue and set the record straight. Is that the only issue in this topic? I don't think it is. Cambodia's initiating actions are, no doubt, an issue. I also think Thailand AND Cambodia (as well as around 140 other nations AKA 3/4's of the world) not ratifying this convention is another.

Posted

I've been accused of being an "army poster boy" in the past - but yep, it looks like they lied. (But it's OK because Cambodia lied first!) Having said that, it may transpire next week that they didn't actually lie and it was a translation error.

Moreover, it is relevant that Thailand and Cambodia both do not officially recognise cluster munitions as immoral arms (having not signed up to the CMC convention) - regardless of whether they should. It is also relevant, albeit to a lesser extent, that the US-led coalition (who place more importance on public opinion than the Thai army!) was using the same arms in populated urban areas less than 10 years ago.

For those who usually need a smiley to discern serious posts and not-so-serious ones, this post has been written slightly tongue-in-cheek. The army continually lie - as does everyone else in this part of the world, if it suits their needs. It's part of the Buddhist "Path of Least Resistance", or it certainly is in Thailand, Laos and Cambodia. The truth - from the army, police, DSI, government, opposition, UDD, PAD - is not automatically deemed to be the most "diplomatic" viewpoint ("are you sure you really want to hear this?"), so sometimes it's better to lie.

My personal view is that use of cluster munitions and anti-personnel mines is highly immoral and irresponsible, but I'm not an arms expert. What's more, it would surprise me immensely if the Cambodians weren't using them too.

Posted

Thailand admits controversial weapon use

BANGKOK, April 7, 2011 (AFP) - Thailand on Thursday admitted using controversial weapons during a border clash with neighbouring Cambodia in February but insisted it did not classify them as cluster munitions.

Responding to accusations from campaigners, the Thai army said it had used Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions (DPICM) during the recent heavy fighting on the shared border. [more...]

Full story:

Posted
"It's appalling that any country would resort to using cluster munitions after the international community banned them," added CMC director Laura Cheeseman.

And here, it seems, is the crux of the matter: the weapons in question are classified as cluster munitions by the CMC - but not by Thailand, the US, Israel and around three quarters of the rest of the world. I think the CMC is clearly using this as an opportunity to extend their reach and push their agenda.

The 'international community' has not banned them - it has agreed that those who have signed up to the convention may not legally use them. If Ms. Cheeseman would like more countries to sign up to them, maybe the CMC should review their classification of what a cluster munition actually is. Otherwise, we'll continue to see most of the world not agree to sign it, no matter how appalled she is. Not ideal, but that's how it is.

Posted
"It's appalling that any country would resort to using cluster munitions after the international community banned them," added CMC director Laura Cheeseman.

And here, it seems, is the crux of the matter: the weapons in question are classified as cluster munitions by the CMC - but not by Thailand, the US, Israel and around three quarters of the rest of the world. I think the CMC is clearly using this as an opportunity to extend their reach and push their agenda.

The 'international community' has not banned them - it has agreed that those who have signed up to the convention may not legally use them. If Ms. Cheeseman would like more countries to sign up to them, maybe the CMC should review their classification of what a cluster munition actually is. Otherwise, we'll continue to see most of the world not agree to sign it, no matter how appalled she is. Not ideal, but that's how it is.

I'm outraged that the international community has banned smoking, but Thailand still allows it.

That works too, doesn't it?

Posted
"It's appalling that any country would resort to using cluster munitions after the international community banned them," added CMC director Laura Cheeseman.

And here, it seems, is the crux of the matter: the weapons in question are classified as cluster munitions by the CMC - but not by Thailand, the US, Israel and around three quarters of the rest of the world. I think the CMC is clearly using this as an opportunity to extend their reach and push their agenda.

The 'international community' has not banned them - it has agreed that those who have signed up to the convention may not legally use them. If Ms. Cheeseman would like more countries to sign up to them, maybe the CMC should review their classification of what a cluster munition actually is. Otherwise, we'll continue to see most of the world not agree to sign it, no matter how appalled she is. Not ideal, but that's how it is.

Cluster munition means a conventional munition that is designed to disperse or release explosive submunitions each weighing less than 20 kilograms, and includes those explosive submunitions. It does not mean the following:A munition or submunition designed to dispense flares, smoke, pyrotechnics or chaff; or a munition designed exclusively for an air defence role;

A munition or submunition designed to produce electrical or electronic effects;

A munition that, in order to avoid indiscriminate area effects and the risks posed by unexploded submunitions, has all of the following characteristics:

Each munition contains fewer than ten explosive submunitions;

Each explosive submunition weighs more than four kilograms;

Each explosive submunition is designed to detect and engage a single target object;

Each explosive submunition is equipped with an electronic self-destruction mechanism;

Each explosive submunition is equipped with an electronic self-deactivating feature;

3. Explosive submunition means aconventionalmunition that in order to perform its task is dispersed or released by a cluster munition and is designed to function by detonating an explosive charge prior to, on or after impact;

Source; http://www.clusterco...the-convention/

I wouldn't have thought you could get much clearer than that. If you mean that countries would sign up if they could get away with the cluster munitions they have by the mere fact of changing the definition I would be personally be very against that idea. A DPICM is a cluster bomb by any other name. Cluster munitions are a particularly nasty weapon and as defined above should be banned from use. 107 Countries around the world (including incidentally, Cambodia, Indonesia and Malaysia) adopted the convention in 2008. 55 have since gone on to sign/ratify it. Apart from America and Israel, (and I certainly do not hold those up as role models when it comes to use of war weapons) why is it that Thailand feels it necessary to use cluster munitions?

Posted

...

I wouldn't have thought you could get much clearer than that. If you mean that countries would sign up if they could get away with the cluster munitions they have by the mere fact of changing the definition I would be personally be very against that idea. A DPICM is a cluster bomb by any other name. Cluster munitions are a particularly nasty weapon and as defined above should be banned from use. 107 Countries around the world (including incidentally, Cambodia, Indonesia and Malaysia) adopted the convention in 2008. 55 have since gone on to sign/ratify it. Apart from America and Israel, (and I certainly do not hold those up as role models when it comes to use of war weapons) why is it that Thailand feels it necessary to use cluster munitions?

Actually, the 107 nations didn't adopt the convention, they agreed to the wording of the convention. But what's the point of saying the wording is ok, if you don't actually ratify it?

I would put all the countries that haven't ratified it in the same basket, regardless of whether they think the wording is OK or not.

Posted (edited)

...Cluster munitions are a particularly nasty weapon and as defined above should be banned from use. 107 Countries around the world (including incidentally, Cambodia, Indonesia and Malaysia) adopted the convention in 2008. 55 have since gone on to sign/ratify it. Apart from America and Israel, (and I certainly do not hold those up as role models when it comes to use of war weapons) why is it that Thailand feels it necessary to use cluster munitions?

You're being more than a little dishonest here, in fact, just as you accuse the Thai army of doing, you are lying to us. The CMC itself stated "CMC condemns Thai use of cluster munitions in Cambodia

Thailand and Cambodia should join global treaty banning cluster munitions"

http://www.stopclustermunitions.org/

As this suggests, both Thailand and Cambodia have not signed the treaty. Until Cambodia joins the treaty, it really has no right to moan about Thailand using weapons that itself has not ruled out using. While there are NGO's in both countries who are members of the coalition. From the same source:

"Cambodia

  • Cambodia CBL (Jesuit Refugee Service)
  • World Vision Cambodia

Thailand

  • Coalition for Peace and Reconciliation
  • Thai Campaign to Ban Landmines
  • Handicap International Thailand
  • Nonviolence International
  • Coalition for Peace and Reconciliation "

Neither country has ratified it, nor stated that they would not use these weapons. (I take it that all the anti cluster bomb posters here are paid up members of at least one of these NGO's? It's all too easy to preach and condemn (and lie) without putting your money where your mouth is).

108 countries have signed the Convention and 56 have ratified:

Country Signature Ratification Afghanistan 03-Dec-08 Albania 03-Dec-08 16-Jun-09 Angola 03-Dec-08 Antigua & Barbuda 16-Jul-10 23-Aug-10 Australia 03-Dec-08 Austria 03-Dec-08 02-Apr-09 Belgium 03-Dec-08 22-Dec-09 Benin 03-Dec-08 Bolivia 03-Dec-08 Bosnia and Herzegovina 03-Dec-08 07-Sep-10 Botswana 03-Dec-08 Bulgaria 03-Dec-08 06-Apr-11 Burkina Faso 03-Dec-08 16-Feb-10 Burundi 03-Dec-08 25-Sep-09 Cameroon 15-Dec-09 Canada 03-Dec-08 Cape Verde 03-Dec-08 19-Oct-10 Central African Republic 03-Dec-08 Chad 03-Dec-08 Chile 03-Dec-08 16-Dec-10 Colombia 03-Dec-08 Comoros 03-Dec-08 28-Jul-10 Congo, Democratic Republic of 18-Mar-09 Congo, Republic of 03-Dec-08 Cook Islands 03-Dec-08 Costa Rica 03-Dec-08 Côte d'Ivoire 04-Dec-08 Croatia 03-Dec-08 17-Aug-09 Cyprus 23-Sept-09 Czech Republic 03-Dec-08 Denmark 03-Dec-08 12-Feb-10 Djibouti 30-Jul-10 Dominican Republic 10-Nov-09 Ecuador 03-Dec-08 11-May-10 El Salvador 03-Dec-08 10-Jan-11 Fiji 03-Dec-08 28-May-10 France 03-Dec-08 25-Sep-09 Gambia 03-Dec-08 Germany 03-Dec-08 08-Jul-09 Ghana 03-Dec-08 03-Feb-11 Guatemala 03-Dec-08 03-Nov-10 Guinea 03-Dec-08 Guinea Bissau 03-Dec-08 29-Nov-10 Haiti 28-Oct-09 The Holy See 03-Dec-08 03-Dec-08 Honduras 03-Dec-08 Hungary 03-Dec-08 Iceland 03-Dec-08 Indonesia 03-Dec-08 Iraq 12-Nov-09 Ireland 03-Dec-08 03-Dec-08 Italy 03-Dec-08 Jamaica 12-Jun-09 Japan 03-Dec-08 14-Jul-09 Kenya 03-Dec-08 Lao PDR 03-Dec-08 18-Mar-09 Lebanon 03-Dec-08 05-Nov-10 Lesotho 03-Dec-08 28-May-10 Liberia 03-Dec-08 Liechtenstein 03-Dec-08 Lithuania 03-Dec-08 24-Mar-11 Luxembourg 03-Dec-08 10-Jul-09 Macedonia, FYR 03-Dec-08 08-Oct-09 Madagascar 03-Dec-08 Malawi 03-Dec-08 7-Oct-09 Mali 03-Dec-08 30-Jun-10 Malta 03-Dec-08 24-Sep-09 Mauritania 19-Apr-10 Mexico 03-Dec-08 06-May-09 Moldova, Republic of 03-Dec-08 16-Feb-10 Monaco 03-Dec-08 21-Sep-10 Montenegro 03-Dec-08 25-Jan-10 Mozambique 03-Dec-08 14-Mar-11 Namibia 03-Dec-08 Nauru 03-Dec-08 Netherlands 03-Dec-08 23-Feb-11 New Zealand 03-Dec-08 22-Dec-09 Nicaragua 03-Dec-08 02-Nov-09 Niger 03-Dec-08 02-Jun-09 Nigeria 12-June-09 Norway 03-Dec-08 03-Dec-08 Palau 03-Dec-08 Panama 03-Dec-08 29-Nov-10 Paraguay 03-Dec-08 Peru 03-Dec-08 Philippines 03-Dec-08 Portugal 03-Dec-08 09-Mar-11 Rwanda 03-Dec-08 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 23-Sept-09 29-Oct-10 Samoa 03-Dec-08 28-Apr-10 San Marino 03-Dec-08 10-Jul-09 São Tomé and Principe 03-Dec-08 Senegal 03-Dec-08 Seychelles 13-Apr-10 20-May-10 Sierra Leone 03-Dec-08 03-Dec-08 Slovenia 03-Dec-08 19-Aug-09 Somalia 03-Dec-08 South Africa 03-Dec-08 Spain 03-Dec-08 17-Jun-09 Sweden 03-Dec-08 Switzerland 03-Dec-08 Tanzania 03-Dec-08 Togo 03-Dec-08 Tunisia 12-Jan-09 28-Sep-10 Uganda 03-Dec-08 United Kingdom 03-Dec-08 4-May-10 Uruguay 03-Dec-08 24-Sep-09 Zambia 03-Dec-08 12-Aug-09

(Edited to add), the table didn't come out right, but there is a glaring gap between Burundi and Cameroon, where phiphidon assures us Cambodia is. (and no, it's not there under Kampuchea either)

I also found an interesting defence of their use:

"He told the BBC: "The very strong military advice is that they are essential."They fulfil a particular role on the battlefield and if we did not use them, we would be putting our own forces at greater and, therefore, unnecessary risk."

He said the cluster bombs were "not indiscriminate" weapons and they were a "more effective and safer" option than unguided weapons when targeting the enemy in a defined area."

No, not the Thai army, but the aptly named UK Defence Secretary at the time of the Iraq war, Geoff Hoon

http://www.dailymail...-used-Iraq.html

Edited by ballpoint

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