5 More Musicians Jailed

[uptheos]

Just been talking to one of the organisers of the Chiang Mai Toyride and as far as he is aware all of the people involved including himself have work permits so they remain unaffected by any of these developments.

Well that's a relief.......no need for the already overworked BIB to organise a Toyride Police Squad.

[Semper]

The local police never ceases to disgust me. Several people die at the Downtown Inn under mysterious circumstances and not a single arrest is made. Several people play music at the Jazz Coop and they are swiftly jailed. The difference is that the owner of the former establishment is powerful and corrupt, whereas the owner of the latter is a just a regular guy who wants to enhance the musical culture of our city. I think the appropriate response to this is to make it as public as possible -as is happening now on the Internet- just don't count on the Thai media.

Cheers, CMX

As in getting politically involved in Thailand as a Farang.

[H2oDunc]

Just been talking to one of the organisers of the Chiang Mai Toyride and as far as he is aware all of the people involved including himself have work permits so they remain unaffected by any of these developments.

So all the people involved in the charity ride have a work permit that states that riding a motorcycle for charity around CM is their occupation ?

YEAH RIGHT !!!

Like a lot people here I have attended charity and community events like reef clean up's and by rights I do not have a work permit to do this activity but the chances of the immigration busting me for it are slim as are the charity riders.

Immigration guys may be a pain in the neck sometimes but even they wouldn't stoop that low as to bust charity riders

[yesterday]

The local police never ceases to disgust me. Several people die at the Downtown Inn under mysterious circumstances and not a single arrest is made. Several people play music at the Jazz Coop and they are swiftly jailed. The difference is that the owner of the former establishment is powerful and corrupt, whereas the owner of the latter is a just a regular guy who wants to enhance the musical culture of our city. I think the appropriate response to this is to make it as public as possible -as is happening now on the Internet- just don't count on the Thai media.

Cheers, CMX

The "regular guy" is very regular in that just like everybody else he is in biz to make money. He sells expensive drinks relative to drinking at home and he pockets big cash from the people handing over money to him to drink booze and listen to his "free" music . He is making money using illegals. Now how does this have anything to do with mystery deaths ?Key word here is mysterious!! If the Thai police could solve the mystery I am very sure they would jump on it. Since the big hospitals everywhere are drawing zeros ,which is not that strange really, to imply somehow this is a multible murder cover up led by the Thai police....stop it!!For it is absurb.... just rediculous at this point in time.

Edited April 21, 2011 by yesterday

[james24]

The local police never ceases to disgust me. Several people die at the Downtown Inn under mysterious circumstances and not a single arrest is made. Several people play music at the Jazz Coop and they are swiftly jailed. The difference is that the owner of the former establishment is powerful and corrupt, whereas the owner of the latter is a just a regular guy who wants to enhance the musical culture of our city. I think the appropriate response to this is to make it as public as possible -as is happening now on the Internet- just don't count on the Thai media.

Cheers, CMX

The "regular guy" is very regular in that just like everybody else he is in biz to make money. He sells expensive drinks relative to drinking at home and he pockets big cash from the people handing over money to him to drink booze and listen to his "free" music . He is making money using illegals. Now how does this have anything to do with mystery deaths ?Key word here is mysterious!! If the Thai police could solve the mystery I am very sure they would jump on it. Since the big hospitals everywhere are drawing zeros ,which is not that strange really, to imply somehow this is a multible murder cover up led by the Thai police....stop it!!For it is absurb.... just rediculous at this point in time.

'Very sure they would jump on it'....Im sure 'some' of them try, but they're normally overruled by the power of money.

No offence but the amount of mysterious murder cover ups and payoffs in this country is the thing that's absurd.

[Dellboy218]

Just been talking to one of the organisers of the Chiang Mai Toyride and as far as he is aware all of the people involved including himself have work permits so they remain unaffected by any of these developments.

So all the people involved in the charity ride have a work permit that states that riding a motorcycle for charity around CM is their occupation ?

YEAH RIGHT !!!

Like a lot people here I have attended charity and community events like reef clean up's and by rights I do not have a work permit to do this activity but the chances of the immigration busting me for it are slim as are the charity riders.

Immigration guys may be a pain in the neck sometimes but even they wouldn't stoop that low as to bust charity riders

If you checked, you will find that someone brought up the issue of the Toyride. I was asked to clarify the situation. As for the rest of your post, bully for you, perhaps next time you might have something constructive to say without jumping on other peoples posts.

[lannarebirth]

Just been talking to one of the organisers of the Chiang Mai Toyride and as far as he is aware all of the people involved including himself have work permits so they remain unaffected by any of these developments.

So all the people involved in the charity ride have a work permit that states that riding a motorcycle for charity around CM is their occupation ?

YEAH RIGHT !!!

Like a lot people here I have attended charity and community events like reef clean up's and by rights I do not have a work permit to do this activity but the chances of the immigration busting me for it are slim as are the charity riders.

Immigration guys may be a pain in the neck sometimes but even they wouldn't stoop that low as to bust charity riders

If you checked, you will find that someone brought up the issue of the Toyride. I was asked to clarify the situation. As for the rest of your post, bully for you, perhaps next time you might have something constructive to say without jumping on other peoples posts.

I brought it up, but I didn't post it to be accusatorial in any way. Moreso to make the point that busting musicians benignly jamming for no pay is pretty stupid. Given that level of stupidity I conjectured "what next? The CM Toy Ride folks or cricket players"?, or what have you.

[LuckyLemon]

I brought it up, but I didn't post it to be accusatorial in any way. Moreso to make the point that busting musicians benignly jamming for no pay is pretty stupid. Given that level of stupidity I conjectured "what next? The CM Toy Ride folks or cricket players"?, or what have you.

One of the previously busted musicians boasted to me that he was paid 200-300bht a night for his performances, he performed in various bars 5 nights a week.

I don't know if he was telling the truth, but have no reason to believe otherwise.

In another bar the owner puts up the price of drinks by 10bht a drink when the live music is playing, I asked him why and he replied "to cover his costs for the music".

As all the musicians are foreigners one wondered what his costs are. If I wondered you can bet the police would wonder too.

Now if I am hearing these stories, then the police are too.

The police pay foreign information sources quite well. I am not one of their sources, but someone I know is, he drinks in all these bars and is paid well for the information he provides to the police.

Drugs, who is using, who is selling, working without permits, who they are, who pays them under the counter, etc.

Working for the police is about the only employment that you can safely do as a foreigner without a WP.

[cm das]

The "regular guy" is very regular in that just like everybody else he is in biz to make money. He sells expensive drinks relative to drinking at home and he pockets big cash from the people handing over money to him to drink booze and listen to his "free" music . He is making money using illegals.

I know the "regular guy" in question and this is simply inaccurate. He is not pocketing big cash. The North Gate needs to take in a certain amount of income but it is not an enterprise motivated by profit. In fact, it's called the North Gate Jazz Co-op because the whole idea is to have an open, creative space where as much of the money as possible is shared by the community of performers (I'm talking about regular bands, not jam nights). Whether foreigners worked there illegally or not is a separate question, but please don't make characterizations like this if you don't know the motivations of the people involved.

[lannarebirth]

I brought it up, but I didn't post it to be accusatorial in any way. Moreso to make the point that busting musicians benignly jamming for no pay is pretty stupid. Given that level of stupidity I conjectured "what next? The CM Toy Ride folks or cricket players"?, or what have you.

One of the previously busted musicians boasted to me that he was paid 200-300bht a night for his performances, he performed in various bars 5 nights a week.

I don't know if he was telling the truth, but have no reason to believe otherwise.

In another bar the owner puts up the price of drinks by 10bht a drink when the live music is playing, I asked him why and he replied "to cover his costs for the music".

As all the musicians are foreigners one wondered what his costs are. If I wondered you can bet the police would wonder too.

Now if I am hearing these stories, then the police are too.

The police pay foreign information sources quite well. I am not one of their sources, but someone I know is, he drinks in all these bars and is paid well for the information he provides to the police.

Drugs, who is using, who is selling, working without permits, who they are, who pays them under the counter, etc.

Working for the police is about the only employment that you can safely do as a foreigner without a WP.

[TrippRitter]

As yet I still have not seen any official or media reports regarding this incident.

A lot of ho har over something that was mentioned on facebook.

Does the OP or anyone here have any solid facts besides someone told me, as to the fate of these musicians. Such as names, nationalities and what these guys were doing in Thailand. Tourists, living here or what?

Otherwise it is pointless in assuming anything about anybody about something that may not be fact.

I am sure if there were any substance to this story, then it would be in the Thailand news clipping threads and not just mentioned on the Chiang Mai forum.

The OP has titled this thread, 5 more musicians jailed, but that is an incorrect discription until this has been confirmed.

David Oxon on a previous thread which he started, quoted that he heard from a reliable source that these guys had been arrested.

So please enlighten us and tell the reliable source.

Another second hand account for what it's worth. I had a few drinks with a good friend last night. He plays at North every week. He told me he just got off the drums a few minutes before the police showed up. He said they arrested the owner, 4 musicians and closed down the club. One of the musicians was a tourist who had only been here for around a week. A shame.

[chiangmaiexpat]

He sells expensive drinks relative to drinking at home and he pockets big cash from the people handing over money to him to drink booze and listen to his "free" music.

I wonder if you have ever been at the Jazz coop, since the cluelessness of your comment suggests otherwise. It is certainly not a "big cash" operation and the owner is -unlike certain police colonels in Chiang Mai- not miraculously wealthy. Calling the musicians playing at the club "illegals" is likewise a flop, since many of them are Thai citizens who do not require work permits. Foreign hobby musicians being picked out happens for a reason. If you cannot see that the police is simply doing what they do best, namely capitalising on a legal loopholes for their own benefit, then there is a lesson to learn.

As for drinks being more expensive in a bar than at home, maybe you should get out more often. It's actually a common thing.

Cheers, CMX

[62strat]

I seriously doubt the BIB have the slightest concern for local Thai musicians. I also find it hard it hard to believe the problem of Falang musicians playing for free is any sort of problem, for thinking Thai people. This will not give the local Thias who play music one bhat more but may benefit a few tea tax collectors for the short time.A vibrant and diverse music scene helps everyone by creating many interesting places to go and see live music. Playing an instrument for a few songs on stage without getting paid is no different from signing a few songs on stage without pay. To me it's another sad day for the Falang and Thai communities who play or enjoy music.

[Puwa]

I love the North Gate, but always wondered if the neighbors feel the same way.

All this talk about enforcing "the law" and holding work permits to strum a guitar is a joke. The meaning of law in Thailand is different from what many of us are accustomed to in our countries of origin. It has little to do with reason, fairness, regulation, protection of public interests, etc. Instead, law is mostly a tool of intimidation licensed out to law enforcement agencies, who use it to extort money from the public. The police essentially pay fee for the right to threaten people with the law. This is why the Thai police play investigative and prosecutorial roles that in other places belong to public prosecutors or district attorneys. They need this control to defend the legitimacy of their acts of "enforcement." Because police are well armed and well organized, there's little chance that they can be controlled by the judiciary. Instead, it's the other way around. When the economy is down, police come up with new and creative ways to use the law to make money. In such a system, the accused has few real options other than to pay some "fine" under threat of even more expensive and disproportionate punishment if he contests. All Thai people know this, but have few options other than to play along. That's the country we live in.

Edited April 22, 2011 by Puwa

[daoyai]

The local police never ceases to disgust me. Several people die at the Downtown Inn under mysterious circumstances and not a single arrest is made. Several people play music at the Jazz Coop and they are swiftly jailed. The difference is that the owner of the former establishment is powerful and corrupt, whereas the owner of the latter is a just a regular guy who wants to enhance the musical culture of our city. I think the appropriate response to this is to make it as public as possible -as is happening now on the Internet- just don't count on the Thai media.

Cheers, CMX

The "regular guy" is very regular in that just like everybody else he is in biz to make money. He sells expensive drinks relative to drinking at home and he pockets big cash from the people handing over money to him to drink booze and listen to his "free" music . He is making money using illegals. Now how does this have anything to do with mystery deaths ?Key word here is mysterious!! If the Thai police could solve the mystery I am very sure they would jump on it. Since the big hospitals everywhere are drawing zeros ,which is not that strange really, to imply somehow this is a multible murder cover up led by the Thai police....stop it!!For it is absurb.... just rediculous at this point in time.

Actually in the case of The North Gate, I have been told by the owner that Tuesday (jamming with farang night) is the night that brings in most of the clubs income, that money is then used to pay the Thai bands that play the other nights of the week.

[Paagai]

Now if I am hearing these stories, then the police are too.

The police pay foreign information sources quite well. I am not one of their sources, but someone I know is, he drinks in all these bars and is paid well for the information he provides to the police.

Drugs, who is using, who is selling, working without permits, who they are, who pays them under the counter, etc.

Working for the police is about the only employment that you can safely do as a foreigner without a WP.

Me thinks you've been watching too much TV, or know very little about the way the BIB work

If they want information they can get it for free on

Why would they pay for information when they have so many co-erced informers working for free? Plenty of people out on the streets because "helping the police", was an alternative to jail time, including some Farangs

Or did you mean the tourist Police volunteers?

Of course there is one line of Police business that employs many in CM but we won't go there...........

[yesterday]

The "regular guy" is very regular in that just like everybody else he is in biz to make money. He sells expensive drinks relative to drinking at home and he pockets big cash from the people handing over money to him to drink booze and listen to his "free" music . He is making money using illegals.

I know the "regular guy" in question and this is simply inaccurate. He is not pocketing big cash. The North Gate needs to take in a certain amount of income but it is not an enterprise motivated by profit. In fact, it's called the North Gate Jazz Co-op because the whole idea is to have an open, creative space where as much of the money as possible is shared by the community of performers (I'm talking about regular bands, not jam nights). Whether foreigners worked there illegally or not is a separate question, but please don't make characterizations like this if you don't know the motivations of the people involved.

You can not separate the fact that he was breaking the law to make a buck since the arrested were in fact illegal working a premise without a work permit to bring in the paying customers selling them alcohol from profit ,"relative to drinking at home"

Maybe the jazz club co-op owner is the 'Mother Teresa" of local Chiang mai bar owners making a buck here in Chiang Mai , selling booze to clients by the cup to support only his strong love of jazz and of the likes and memory of all time favorites:

Duke Ellington, Count Basie,Louis Armstrong,Charlie Parker ,Milers Davies and Herbie Hancock.

Consider presenting these mitigating circumstances as a character witness , tell these pertinent facts to the sitting judge.

My daddy taught me well and the main point I thank him for :

"The law is The law"

very definitive, short and to the point. It took me many years to grasp this simple five word statement ,to really understand .We can only hope now your bar owner friend will think twice before trading his freedom in the name of jazz .

Your bar owner friend knew well and good that he was breaking the law, "not doing it for money but for love of music " is not only silly but a mute point.

I have been to his place more than one Tuesday night myself and not only was he breaking immigration laws but at the same time endangering human life! His place of biz is too small ,not suitable at all for the crowds he was selling his cocktails to on Tuesday nights .

I would bet a dollar to a dime many other Chiang Mai bar owners would like to have a 'street party" selling music and alcohol for "the love of music not money"….But doing this with no regard for customers personal safety is certainly a worst crime in itself .. Maybe to some , drinking ,drunk young foreigners spilling out on the side walks and into the busy street at night is no big deal for the "sake of jazz co-op music" I think the Thai police are heroes stopping a tragedy before it happened.

Back to my Daddy's teachings, "The law is the law " lets expound this for Thailand, You are here in some ones else country as a "guest" abide by your host countries laws or go to jail …."the law is the law"!

Edited April 22, 2011 by yesterday

[chiangmaiexpat]

My guess is that that apart from collecting a few fines, which are small change in the grand scheme, this is more of a mopping-up operation which are sometimes carried out in order to affirm the sovereignty of the force. It is part of the police power game, just as their official patrols, or taking free dinners in restaurants. Perhaps a high-ranking officer got upset at seeing farangs blowing horns, who knows. Unfortunately, arresting jamming musicians is as much in the public interest as arresting aid and charity volunteers without WP. The police would not stoop that low? - The latter has already happened in the 2004 tsunami crisis.

Cheers, CMX

[sticklee]

"The law is the law", now that's one of the most ignorant comments I've heard yet on any forum dealing with Thai issues. The law will never be the law when it is not prosecuted by the judiciary. Laws in Thailand are nothing more than a tool of law enforcement for extortion. In many, many cases no charges are ever laid, there are no court appearances, no presiding judge to hear any evidence and no suitable punishment ever handed down.

The law will never be the law where it is not applied fairly without prejudice to everyone. Here the laws are applied differently to different people accused of the same crimes or not applied at all to the Thais when foreigners and tourists are swiftly arrested. A perfect example being all the goods sold than infringe copyright or trademark licenses. Try selling pirated computer software in Panthip Plaza, even with all your proper permits and licenses.

[philw]

The "regular guy" is very regular in that just like everybody else he is in biz to make money. He sells expensive drinks relative to drinking at home and he pockets big cash from the people handing over money to him to drink booze and listen to his "free" music . He is making money using illegals.

I know the "regular guy" in question and this is simply inaccurate. He is not pocketing big cash. The North Gate needs to take in a certain amount of income but it is not an enterprise motivated by profit. In fact, it's called the North Gate Jazz Co-op because the whole idea is to have an open, creative space where as much of the money as possible is shared by the community of performers (I'm talking about regular bands, not jam nights). Whether foreigners worked there illegally or not is a separate question, but please don't make characterizations like this if you don't know the motivations of the people involved.

You can not separate the fact that he was breaking the law to make a buck since the arrested were in fact illegal working a premise without a work permit to bring in the paying customers selling them alcohol from profit ,"relative to drinking at home"

Maybe the jazz club co-op owner is the 'Mother Teresa" of local Chiang mai bar owners making a buck here in Chiang Mai , selling booze to clients by the cup to support only his strong love of jazz and of the likes and memory of all time favorites:

Duke Ellington, Count Basie,Louis Armstrong,Charlie Parker ,Milers Davies and Herbie Hancock.

Consider presenting these mitigating circumstances as a character witness , tell these pertinent facts to the sitting judge.

My daddy taught me well and the main point I thank him for :

"The law is The law"

very definitive, short and to the point. It took me many years to grasp this simple five word statement ,to really understand .We can only hope now your bar owner friend will think twice before trading his freedom in the name of jazz .

Your bar owner friend knew well and good that he was breaking the law, "not doing it for money but for love of music " is not only silly but a mute point.

I have been to his place more than one Tuesday night myself and not only was he breaking immigration laws but at the same time endangering human life! His place of biz is too small ,not suitable at all for the crowds he was selling his cocktails to on Tuesday nights .

I would bet a dollar to a dime many other Chiang Mai bar owners would like to have a 'street party" selling music and alcohol for "the love of music not money"….But doing this with no regard for customers personal safety is certainly a worst crime in itself .. Maybe to some , drinking ,drunk young foreigners spilling out on the side walks and into the busy street at night is no big deal for the "sake of jazz co-op music" I think the Thai police are heroes stopping a tragedy before it happened.

Back to my Daddy's teachings, "The law is the law " lets expound this for Thailand, You are here in some ones else country as a "guest" abide by your host countries laws or go to jail …."the law is the law"!

You are most probably correct but certainly awfully sad and miserable........

[huck]

I believe there arew few Thai musicians capable of playing good jazz.

Tuesdays are jam nights at North Gate and I don t think antone gets paid

So if no money has exchanged hands we cannot talk about a job being taken away from a Thai.

Karioke is also done out of love, We don t see Karioke musicians getting arrested do we?

The North Gate scene helps Chiang Mai and helps with tourism. By arresting foreigners

what the immigration is doing is actually going to hurt tourism and so hurt Thailand.

Immigation in Thailand is too harsh.

Most countries in the world, if you live in the country

they want you to partisipate in it.

Remember trade leads to prosperity, while sloth leads to poverty.

In the rest of South east asia foreigners can own property and even work.

In Nazi Germany Jews could not hold property and also needed to report every 3 monthes.

We live in global society and all immigration world wide needs to change.

Right now, immigration policies world wide are responsible for some of the greatest misseries

like slavery, prostitution and encourages criminal activity.

[Thighlander]

It looks like now only wealthy farang are truly welcome in Chiang Mai. Part of the backpacker element has been sort of a belligerent homeless type from the US for several years. I have met quite a few of these people. They seem to be in open defiance of the law, and worse yet, they are destitute. A number of them have no fixed address in America. This started in California, where the largest Thai community in the States is--so they are well versed in that mentality. The Thais are onto this, and don't like them. The "funny hair", etc. Once you are identified as a taker, and not a giver, you're done. The pie has been shrinking for Chiang Mai, the economy is tough--more hotels were being built as the numbers were shrinking. The easiest way for them to remedy this is to go after illegal businesses.

Las Vegas used to be a great place to go for cheap hotels, and lots of booze, and great cheap eats. As it matured, the big corporations came in and started determining profits by the head, before people stepped off the plane. If you did not fit their "profile" of a person that was going to hand them xx Dollars per day on your stay, then you just weren't their kind of people. Unfortunately I see a similar thing happening in Chiang Mai. They probably all know fellow Thais that have unsuccessfully tried to get into the States, and were denied visas, so they can justify it. There's a lot of forces working against the farang. Maybe even compare to Major League Baseball. Hell, they used to encourage people to get drunk, beer and tickets were cheap. They used to give girls wearing hotpants free admission on Tuesday nights in Oakland. Now the ballparks are corporate slime. People pay millions just for the right to sell beers in the ballparks. So they have to crack down on the people bringing their own by chasing away the tailgaters. You're paying 10 times more, and you're 10 times more likely to get arrested. It's a shame, but a lot of great things end like that. Foreign bar owners get no sympathy from me, nor do the musicians--they clearly knew. I played in a grey area by buying a house in 2006 (sold in 2008), with a lawyer. I wouldn't do it again. I really do love and miss Thailand--the old Thailand.

[TaxinMeter]

The action is regrettable and the treatment is overly harsh.

The police appeared in civilian clothes on that night, just after an ad-hoc outfit of a few foreigners and some Thais had taken the stage. In fact, the night was very quiet as nobody really dared to take the stage in the light of the recent crackdowns. Then it appeared that a foreign tourist was ready to sing "Girl from Ipanema".

A few minutes into the song police, who had parked in a civilian pickup truck near the venue, went inside and started taking pictures. They then asked the owner who is pictured in a post above, to accompany them to explain etc.

Shortly after, two foreign musicians were arrested and led away, at that point unshackeled as far as I could tell.

Next day first hand accounts suggest they were then interrogated for several hours and all the paperwork was prepared. They were handcuffed during the entire time, for several hours. The immigration who arrested them were keen to transfer the case to the regular CM police as quickly as possible. It might be that immigration checked only visa status and let CM police work on work permit issues as it's regular police jurisdiction.

The two musicians (not sure if the owner was there as well) then spent the night in a brighly lit cell on a concrete floor without bedding etc.. The next day a significant bail amount was negotiated with the help of a "high ranking officer" and subsequently paid to the police. In the afternoon both musicians were free to leave the police headquarters.

This kind of "crackdown" has certainly happened before from time to time, in Pai effectively killing a fledgling Thai/farang music scene (and a number of venues with it) a few years ago. Now the same seems to be on the agenda in Chiang Mai. The treatment and jailing of people for a minor infraction such as this is what I find disturbing. No warning was given beforehand (besides other arrests in other venues) and in the end it appeared to be about the bail money.

As for the law, this is matter of interpretation. As a Thai lawyer once told me: In Thailand laws don't matter, people matter. If you have the state or connected people against you, a written law, even though it's on the statute books for a hundred years and courts have decided in accordance a thousand times, will not help you. The court will decide against you in every instance. Being a foreigner only makes it worse.

To what measure personnel changes are responsible here and what role pecunary interests of those people may play. currently it's mostly hearsay.

But the state asserting itself to lay the ground rules for a new round of "the game" certainly seems to describe the situation.

[Ulysses G.]

In Nazi Germany Jews could not hold property and also needed to report every 3 monthes.

Aren't you getting a little carried away.

[buddhalady]

The action is regrettable and the treatment is overly harsh.

The police appeared in civilian clothes on that night, just after an ad-hoc outfit of a few foreigners and some Thais had taken the stage. In fact, the night was very quiet as nobody really dared to take the stage in the light of the recent crackdowns. Then it appeared that a foreign tourist was ready to sing "Girl from Ipanema".

A few minutes into the song police, who had parked in a civilian pickup truck near the venue, went inside and started taking pictures. They then asked the owner who is pictured in a post above, to accompany them to explain etc.

Shortly after, two foreign musicians were arrested and led away, at that point unshackeled as far as I could tell.

Next day first hand accounts suggest they were then interrogated for several hours and all the paperwork was prepared. They were handcuffed during the entire time, for several hours. The immigration who arrested them were keen to transfer the case to the regular CM police as quickly as possible. It might be that immigration checked only visa status and let CM police work on work permit issues as it's regular police jurisdiction.

The two musicians (not sure if the owner was there as well) then spent the night in a brighly lit cell on a concrete floor without bedding etc.. The next day a significant bail amount was negotiated with the help of a "high ranking officer" and subsequently paid to the police. In the afternoon both musicians were free to leave the police headquarters.

This kind of "crackdown" has certainly happened before from time to time, in Pai effectively killing a fledgling Thai/farang music scene (and a number of venues with it) a few years ago. Now the same seems to be on the agenda in Chiang Mai. The treatment and jailing of people for a minor infraction such as this is what I find disturbing. No warning was given beforehand (besides other arrests in other venues) and in the end it appeared to be about the bail money.

As for the law, this is matter of interpretation. As a Thai lawyer once told me: In Thailand laws don't matter, people matter. If you have the state or connected people against you, a written law, even though it's on the statute books for a hundred years and courts have decided in accordance a thousand times, will not help you. The court will decide against you in every instance. Being a foreigner only makes it worse.

To what measure personnel changes are responsible here and what role pecunary interests of those people may play. currently it's mostly hearsay.

But the state asserting itself to lay the ground rules for a new round of "the game" certainly seems to describe the situation.

This entire situation is tragic, music is the bond between all peoples. Since I've been here (5 years) there have been concerts organised for charity all over town, dance performances involving young farangs, and so on. I can't believe everyone who gave of their time and talent had work permits for every single occasion.

Taking revenue away from Thai groups may work as a reason in some minds when it's jazz and modern being played - but there have been classical concerts and recitals here - remember the early music nights at a certain popular bar near Santiham? Can't see tjhe Thais queuing up to perform motets, early madrigals or 16th century church music, let alone anything that isn't accompanied by an electronic keyboard and the amplifiers from hell! As things are now, even an amateur opera group performing for charity would probably have their collective collar felt.

Coming after the CMU cultural exchange programme mess, where a high number of short and long term volunteers and, more importantly, the groups of disadvantaged people they were helping were left high and dry with three days' notice, it seems all we will be allowed to do here shortly is spend money.

Yes, the law is the law and I'm not even going to mention human rights of expression, but if this was going on right now as a newly- enforced policy all over the country, especially in BKK, at least we'd know where we stand. Great idea to arrest a tourist for singing in public - that'll help CM's struggling tourism sector one h*ll of a lot if it hits the social networks. The tourism businesses here need revenuie from all sectors, not just the wealthy and the bible-bashers who spend all their time in the hi-so food joints and resorts.

As regards NG Jazz co-op, two people there, no names, were involved in trying to help a certain disadvanged group through the CMU programme. Good people, and caring. Doesn't matter, here, though.

How many new arrivals here are seduced, not by pretty young girls, but by the online representation of LOS as an expat paradise? Perhaps a website telling it like it is might result in at least objective decisions on lifestyle changes. CM is still a good place to live in many ways, but....

And I, for one, don't consider the comment about Nazi Germany out of place - that regime didn't begin with outright slaughter of the innocents, it led up to it slowly-slowly.

Buddhalady

[LuckyLemon]

How many new arrivals here are seduced, not by pretty young girls, but by the online representation of LOS as an expat paradise? Perhaps a website telling it like it is might result in at least objective decisions on lifestyle changes. CM is still a good place to live in many ways, but....

And I, for one, don't consider the comment about Nazi Germany out of place - that regime didn't begin with outright slaughter of the innocents, it led up to it slowly-slowly.

Buddhalady

CM is a great place for expats who are fully funded to come and live.

It has never been a great place for foreigners so poor that they have to work illegally for payments under the table from unscrupulous employers.

For those worried about the future of music in CM, maybe they should direct their anger at the bar owner and the musician who thought they could get away with it and spoiled the scene for everyone else.

I would suggest withdrawing your patronage from the bar that started the sorry mess.

Edited April 23, 2011 by LuckyLemon

[lannarebirth]

I suppose no one posting here has a high enough profile or stature in Thai society to be considered a "useful idiot", but some of these posts do put me in mind of that.

[uptheos]

CM is a great place for expats who are fully funded to come and live.

It has never been a great place for foreigners so poor that they have to work illegally for payments under the table from unscrupulous employers.

I think you make a couple of good points.

Regarding the first point, I think it will not be long before the Thai government starts to cash in on the thousands of ex pats that have come to make their home here either by marriage or retirement. For me, it would be no great surprise to see the finance requirements for both marriage and retirement increase. I can envisage the amount required in the bank for marriage doubling and the retirement figure up to around 1.2 million.

Don't think it can't happen, whoever thought years ago that it would ever be 800,000 and how many farang's can actually sell up and move away, in practice? In a nutshell they have us by the balls.

[chiangmaiexpat]

CM is a great place for expats who are fully funded to come and live. It has never been a great place for foreigners so poor that they have to work illegally for payments under the table from unscrupulous employers.

That is probably true for most places in the world, Chiang Mai being no exception. I fully appreciate that governments need to regulate immigration and that the police needs to enforce these regulations. However, the legal situation in Thailand is dire, because corruption and official arbitrariness are widespread, and the immigration laws of Thailand are nothing short of being discriminatory. As expats we are actually on the sunny side, because at least we are officially tolerated as long as we bring money into the country. The occasional outrage about cases like this reminds us of the harsh reality of the immigration situation. We all have to abide by these laws, but we certainly don't have to approve of it. I find myself unable to muster any respect or understanding the arbitrary application of such laws.

Cheers, CMX

[Greenside]

CM is a great place for expats who are fully funded to come and live.

It has never been a great place for foreigners so poor that they have to work illegally for payments under the table from unscrupulous employers.

While what you say about being fully funded may be true (and likely to be more so in the future) the people arrested here were, if they were making any money at all, not profiting to the degree that you could seriously say they were making a living of any kind. While it might be a great place for us fully(ish) funded expats to live, a bland arts scene would change that for many. Freedom of artistic expression is very important and I doubt any of the bar owners involved could possibly be seen as unscrupulous.

No one here is arguing that the letter of the law has not been breached but it's time some degrees of common sense are applied insofar as the current situation benefits no-one and could, if we chose to make it, seriously damage the image that TAT spends so much to maintain. This whole business is dumb, dumb, dumb and someone with a little imagination needs to look at it in depth.

It seems to me that your description of foreigners "so poor that they have to work illegally for payments under the table from unscrupulous employers" applies absolutely to the thousands of migrant Burmese who are exploited left right and centre, often under the noses of the authorities except in times of CrackDown and always by Thai nationals. Surely this merits more attention although presumably it would involve a lot of busy people having to do without the maid and houseboy, and that of course would be a real shame.