Disgusted At Wats In Cm

[czGLoRy]

I am disgusted at the sights I saw today and last week at two temples. I know the names but don't want to target a temple / be specific.

One temple in CM has a ton of animals, snakes, birds, fish, turtles, and similar small animals. They are kept in vice-like cages in absolutely miserably condition.. in hopes that people will buy them to set them free to "better their lives" or something-- and of course turning a profit by selling these animals, and holding them in terrible conditions. Very similar conditions to a terrorist group holding a person hostage and demanding a ransom for the persons freedom-- of course it is to animals so its not important. I was nauseated by the sight.

I went to another temple today, and they had the same thing. three or four old thai ladies capturing/selling birds in very very small cages and they could not move, and a couple had broken wings because they had to be smashed into place. I politely told the person I thought it was inhumane, and she laughed and told me how foreigners are sensitive, and that just earlier that day a falang girl cried at the sight of the birds, and laughed and kept going about capturing more birds =/

I doubt it would matter.. but is there anyone to talk to about this? I would like to hear a "manager" opinion from the temple about why they let such acts continue.. I was completely disgusted by this.--- I hope I am not being out of line with my opinions here.

Edited April 22, 2011 by czGLoRy

[WinnieTheKhwai]

It's the culture; you're not describing anything new. Come to think of it, people selling caged birds to set free were quite common also in tourist areas. I don't see that anymore nowadays.

[Loaded]

At least they eventually get released.

In the West people keep birds in little cages, fish in little bowls, gerbils in boxes and dogs in houses for all of their natural lives.

[CMSteve]

Don't know if this someone just pulling my leg, but I've heard that these birds are much like homing pigeons and always return home. The people catch them at the Wat or other place, cage them and sell them to tourists and merit makers to release. Then in the evening they return to the Wat or other place and catch them again to be resold. There is no merit making and there is no "saving the poor birds", its all a money scam.

[Member]

In China they sell plastic key rings with a living goldfish in it, near schools they sell young chicks and mice colored in pink, yellow, green, blue, purple. Turtles and other small animals are sold near schools to kids and usually thrown away if they get bored of playing with it.

picture of the fish key ring here

images.travelpod.com/users/anna_nicola/1.1268055545.live-goldfish-keyrings.jpg

[lukeskywalker]

It is a money scam and even if it wasn't, you're not going to change hundreds or thousands of years of tradition. At least the animals are free from the time they're released till they are recaptured. Only way to protest it is to not participate. There's probably more humans being trafficked in the world right now than all the birds, turtles and snakes added together in captivity! Seriously. CNN is doing a big news report of world human trafficking, the numbers are staggering. Let's protest and stop that first.

[murni]

As Ghandi said-

The question of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.

What does that say about Thailand!!

[Loaded]

As Ghandi said-

The question of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.

What does that say about Thailand!!

Or McDonalds

[murni]

Exactly

[Sansai Sam]

The birds are fed with a drug that they become addicted to so they come back almost immediately after they are released.

[uptheos]

The birds are fed with a drug that they become addicted to so they come back almost immediately after they are released.

Yes, I've heard this too Sam, though even if birds are fed regularly they will usually return to that place.

[PhilHarries]

As Ghandi said-

The question of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.

What does that say about Thailand!!

Or McDonalds

The difference is that the animals eat at McDonalds of their own free choice.

[james24]

At least they eventually get released.

In the West people keep birds in little cages, fish in little bowls, gerbils in boxes and dogs in houses for all of their natural lives.

Obviously there are cruel people everywhere, just look at Spanish Bull fighters or gaming dog breeders. What makes it difficult in this case is that it is in a temple, really the one place it shouldn't be.

[uptheos]

Obviously there are cruel people everywhere, just look at Spanish Bull fighters or gaming dog breeders. What makes it difficult in this case is that it is in a temple, really the one place it shouldn't be.

Yes, this makes it unpalatable and certainly nothing to do with 'culture'.

[Starrysky]

At least they eventually get released.

In the West people keep birds in little cages, fish in little bowls, gerbils in boxes and dogs in houses for all of their natural lives.

Obviously there are cruel people everywhere, just look at Spanish Bull fighters or gaming dog breeders. What makes it difficult in this case is that it is in a temple, really the one place it shouldn't be.

I could not agree more. Whenever people tell me that animal cruelty is in every country, I always reply that of course that's true, but Thailand sells itself on its Buddhism and the way that animals are treated here must be far from how they should be, according to Buddhist ideals. Having been involved in dog and cat rescue for 11 years in Thailand, I am past being shocked, even by what I have witnessed first hand in temples. Like many animal helpers, I am mostly unable to enter unknown temples anymore as I am pretty sure that I will find suffering and abused animals in them. There comes a point when you just can't deal with any more. I take care of the temple nearest my house - getting recently dumped animals sterilized and giving tick/flea medication and extra food. The monk there says that he doesn't know what he would do if it weren't for my back-up. I used to go to another nearby temple, but had to stop when I knew that 2 dogs had been killed inside the temple 'because they kill chicken and now they are dead. Ha ha'. When Thai people watch me helping an animal, they often say; 'oh, you so good, you make merit!' And I reply, 'well, I'm not a Buddhist, but I believe that Buddhists can do this too.' They usually look confused upon hearing this...

[czGLoRy]

At least they eventually get released.

In the West people keep birds in little cages, fish in little bowls, gerbils in boxes and dogs in houses for all of their natural lives.

Obviously there are cruel people everywhere, just look at Spanish Bull fighters or gaming dog breeders. What makes it difficult in this case is that it is in a temple, really the one place it shouldn't be.

100% my point. agree d

[OldGringo]

What you need to do is return to whatever country you came from and work to ameliorate animal cruelity there. As a foreigner, whatever you say or do here will be counterproductive. Believe me, I've been here a long time.

[sfokevin]

I have seen signs in one of the Wats (Wat Chedi inside the moat) reminding people that buying caged birds promotes the animal being put in a uncomfortable state...

We could go and have more signs made and donate them to the Wats

Wonder how the Abbot would react?

Edited April 23, 2011 by sfokevin

[canuckamuck]

One has to marvel at the dullards that agree to pay to release an animal.

If the animals weren't originally put in the cage by the person who is now trying to profit from their release, the animal would be free without having been traumatized in the first place. There for, a thinking person would say, "you are harming these animals and if I pay you money to release them, I am your accomplice. I am not doing good, I am enabling the bad."

One of the hardest things to find in Thailand is awareness. This goes for natives and visitors.

[uptheos]

What you need to do is return to whatever country you came from and work to ameliorate animal cruelity there. As a foreigner, whatever you say or do here will be counterproductive. Believe me, I've been here a long time.

Right.......we believe you.

[Lizard2010]

I have seen the same person sell these birds day after day.

That is there living.

I guess they have make money somehow. :jap:

[realthaideal]

I don't support these people or condone their livelihoods, but I do realize it is the person's chosen living/vocation. You could take almost any Western job and slice it this way or that and explain why it's wrong or amoral (to the environment, to animals, to coop up other humans in cubicles, to be on the human treadmill), and then what do you think you'd get as a response from that theoretical westerner when you finish ? 'Oh, thanks for enlightening me ! You're right, I should stop this right now.' I don't think so. Until you have another viable better replacement, it's gonna keep going.

I wouldn't call it a scam either. It's a living, first. And second, like most things involving religion, it is a ritualized gesture to make us feel better or closer to the powers that be, silly as it may seem from an outsider's perspective.

Did you use fossil fuels to get to the temple ? Did you eat any meat products today ? Do you recycle, help orphans, give free English lessons to hilltirbe kids ? We must often look more closely at ourselves and start there if we want to make changes.

[brebs]

When I first saw birds in cages and fishes in buckets at the back of a temple, I had some thoughts:

* Torturing animals isn't very Buddhist, surely?

* I would "make merit" by releasing them back into the air/river - but wouldn't it be much better to have never captured them at all? And didn't the capturer get *bad* karma?

Did you use fossil fuels to get to the temple ? Did you eat any meat products today ?

These are unfair comparisons. Fossils are long-dead - the fuel is there to be used. I eat meat, but don't torture it first (in a Spanish bullfight, I'd be rootin' for the bull, to skewer the pretentious prancer )

Edit: Added quote and reply.

Edited April 23, 2011 by brebs

[canuckamuck]

I don't support these people or condone their livelihoods, but I do realize it is the person's chosen living/vocation. You could take almost any Western job and slice it this way or that and explain why it's wrong or amoral (to the environment, to animals, to coop up other humans in cubicles, to be on the human treadmill), and then what do you think you'd get as a response from that theoretical westerner when you finish ? 'Oh, thanks for enlightening me ! You're right, I should stop this right now.' I don't think so. Until you have another viable better replacement, it's gonna keep going.

I wouldn't call it a scam either. It's a living, first. And second, like most things involving religion, it is a ritualized gesture to make us feel better or closer to the powers that be, silly as it may seem from an outsider's perspective.

Did you use fossil fuels to get to the temple ? Did you eat any meat products today ? Do you recycle, help orphans, give free English lessons to hilltirbe kids ? We must often look more closely at ourselves and start there if we want to make changes.

What if I took some cute hamsters down to the temple and stuck pins in them in such way that it wasn't fatal, and then asked for money to remove the pins? Could I say, "it's not a scam. It is a living."

Assuming of course I could get the appropriate work permit )

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I have seen the same person sell these birds day after day.

That is there living.

I guess they have make money somehow. :jap:

Could be worse. On the flight over here I was next to a guy selling weapons to the militaries of a number of SE Asian countries including Thailand. Puts things in perspective.

[sfokevin]

I think the OP original point was this was occuring IN a Wat... A place of enlightenment

Not in business class where the birds are usually served with bad wine

Edited April 24, 2011 by sfokevin

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Sellers tend to be on the periphery though, like the entrance, parking lot, etc. It's a free country, live and let live.

[IanForbes]

Every night I pick up these poor creatures I find in bars on Loy Kroh Road. I release them later but find them back in the same bar the following night. What should I do?

[OldGringo]

Every night I pick up these poor creatures I find in bars on Loy Kroh Road. I release them later but find them back in the same bar the following night. What should I do?

They're obviously following some primal instinct.

[neverdie]

What you need to do is return to whatever country you came from and work to ameliorate animal cruelity there. As a foreigner, whatever you say or do here will be counterproductive. Believe me, I've been here a long time.

Right.......we believe you.

Ohh great, just what this forum needs, another one of those long term, trust what I say types