Widespread Corruption In Thailand Undermining Business, Causing Companies To Invest Money Elsewhere

[Macmundi]

Why not just make it a crime punishable by death. Maybe after seeing a few chicken heads, the monkey will learn.

[Oberkommando]

Western business is just upset that to do business in Thailand you have to actually have business sense and not just a degree from an ivy leage uni.

In 27 years here I have found that friends in the Army and Police force, in fact as many influential friends as you can amass, beats any qualifications or business acumen whatsoever.

[Thaddeus]

Western business is just upset that to do business in Thailand you have to actually have business sense and not just a degree from an ivy leage uni.

In 27 years here I have found that friends in the Army and Police force, in fact as many influential friends as you can amass, beats any qualifications or business acumen whatsoever.

Whoooo.... so impressed, have you actually managed to find any friends here that will not stomp your face in to the dirt should their mood take them.

I'm so happy to be ordinary.

P.S. Self aggrandisement on a public forum is not usually a good idea, brings the wolves out, and the friends of the wolves, and the friends of the wolves that you pissed off last week, etc

[PingManDan]

OH NO not in Thailand LOL

[KeyserSoze01]

Big multinational corporations with their own codes of conduct may claim they no longer bribe politicians or bureaucrats.

As hard as it might be to believe, many countries actually have laws against such behavior.

If the situation continues, Thailand runs a real risk of seeing foreign investors leave due to the lack of a level playing field.

Along with reforming the abhorrent requirements for work permits, visas, reporting, thai vs farang ratio in the business, and on and on and on.

If the government continues to lack political will, perhaps the public should be mobilised to pressure the government to come up with the will, she added.

Of course, just mobilize the red/green/yellow/blue shirts to camp out in front of Government Building until all the corrupt politicians resign. Might as well shut down the airport too.

[Pi Sek]

They need a researcher to state the Bleed'in obvious in Thailand! 55555555 (LOL)

And what really makes me laugh in this article is the Country manager for Pfiefer spouting off about corruption! 555555 Pot calling the kettle black. Its well known that throughout the world drug companies are not only corrupt but immoral, deceptive and totally against free competition. What a joke and an insult to even have his comment listed!

Your claim is unfounded Although there are some countries where drug manufacturers have been shaken down for bribes, the laws are rather explicit in some of the countries that enforce anti bribery regulations. Both the USa andCanada have imposed serious sanctions on european manufacturers that engaged in illegal activities. Drug companies are staffed by humans that engage in human behaviours. It is not the drug company, but the individual person at the large multinationals that breaks these laws. The multinationals have too much on the line and at stake to screw around. When there are instances of impropriety, those actions are a reflection of the nationals' society and not the industry. The most glaring examples of this are Thai, German, Indian, Swiss and Chinese drug manufacturers. Drug companies in the UK, Australia, Canada, USA, France have a zero tolerance for illegal or unethical practices.

BTW, boycott pharmaceutical products to show your solidarity, ok.

GK... one word answer... Nestle. To elaborate, baby milk and India - but I can offer several other examples, quite nasty ones too. OK, not pharmaceutical, but related. A Swiss company flagrantly violating local and international Law, time and time again, without reprisal to date other than occasionally having to change contractors or suppliers.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Pi Sek

[hyperdimension]

first of all i dont care who runs LOS as long as the dollar improves. corrupt govt seems to improve the dollar. under Taksin the dollar went to 45b. now under the incorruptible Abhisit, it is under 30b.

Many factors influence exchange rates. The U.S. Dollar has become weaker against most other currencies because of the huge increase in the money supply by the Federal Reserve (which itself is a somewhat corrupt private institution). The Thai economy and increased foreign investment over the past 5 years has caused the Thai baht to strengthen. These two major factors, amongst others, has cause the USD/THB rate to drop significantly.

I think you should really be blaming the U.S. government and the Federal Reserve for your weak dollar, not Abhisit.

[notime]

I think Thailand has lots of potential, but because there are so many problems in the Thai mindset - to see things and to act according to what they see - that it will be impossible for this country to become a stable society and safe economic environment for foreign investors.

The corruption on every level, the looking away, the stubbornness, the nationalism, the xenophobia, the low education of the masses, the 'saving face' problem, the 'Thai rak Thai' attitude, the wide acceptance of overcharging foreigners, the bad state of the media, the censorship, the disadvantages of foreigners for investments and entrepreneurship, the racism, the preference of scamming over working, the immigration problems (forcing many to do lots of so-called 'visa runs' even when they are doing business here),.. the list is endless!

I have invested money in Thailand, but wouldn't do so anymore, as I realized that Thailand can't take off economically and society-wise in the same pace as most other SEA countries can do it. One actually has to worry to lose all money here because of some mafia figures with 'connections' that need a way to make some quick cash, some scam, some coup or nationalistic fineprint in the laws.

I agree with everything you have said and have exactly the same experience. I wasn't properly informed when moving to Thailand and investing here. I've underestimated the depth of the "cultural divide" between Thai and Western thinking and organization of the society in which it took me to function. Now, I worry that I've in essence lost everything and one day will be "chased out" of here with nothing left or even worse - murdered.

As to the corruption issue: I've discovered that the Thai government has Anti-Corruption Office! It took me half a day to find it in a North Bangkok suburb. There is a huge government compound of many glossy buildings that made quite an impression on me as I didn't realize that Thai government had so much money to spend on offices. It happens that this particular office is not in that compound but near-by housed in a commercial building opposite a shopping mall. Nobody in that building's lobby knew of where the office is located. It turned out to occupy two small rooms on the third floor. It is stuffed by young people, no evidence of any senior figure, who have absolutely no idea of the scale of the problems or ways to tackle them. They complained to me about the low level of their "government salaries" perhaps suggesting that as a Farang I should offer some incentive. Has anybody else been there? I found that office to be a "bad joke" and just an excuse for fighting corruption. I was scared to leave any report there as I was sure the hands of powerful and corrupt officials that I was considering complaining against would reach me first, before that young staff could save my arse.

Edited May 4, 2011 by notime

[homeslice]

Your wrong. The fact is that the economic base of Thailand is manufacturing and production and the proof is in the economic numbers 6% growth is higher than almost every other country. The fact that the Thais do it their way is testimony to it's success.

Western business is just upset that to do business in Thailand you have to actually have business sense and not just a degree from an ivy leage uni.

If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

The economic base of Thailand is agriculture and tourism. Sixty-one percent of the 70 million Thai natives are employed this way, do the research. The fact is that Thailand is a periphery country of China, which is the world's economic power. Thailand is gaining because there is almost zero direct investment in China or it's currency, just like most other periphery countries.

"Western businesses" are not upset about having to have "business sense", that's a huge load of crap! I don't have a degree from an "ivy leage uni", or an "Ivy League University" either, and I have owned two businesses, both profitable.

I love the kitchen, and I do some of my best cooking without any groceries anywhere in site.

You need to get your defecation in one location.

[homeslice]

BigJohnnyBKK argues a very good case in my opinion.

I second the motion.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Your wrong. The fact is that the economic base of Thailand is manufacturing and production and the proof is in the economic numbers 6% growth is higher than almost every other country. The fact that the Thais do it their way is testimony to it's success.

Western business is just upset that to do business in Thailand you have to actually have business sense and not just a degree from an ivy leage uni.

If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

I may be wrong - many people would disagree with me, especially those who think Thais are congenitally subnormal - but in my opinion if Thailand had really tried to establish a good education system for everyone, largely eliminated corruption and established strong respect for the rule of law and a more open and transparent merit-based economy rather than one based on family and connections, then it's economy would be a lot more like Singapore or Hong Kong's is now.

The **reason** it's based on primary production, low-cost manufacturing - both of which rely on low labor costs is the *result* of Thailand's lack of competitiveness. 6% growth is great, but look at average per-capita GDP/GNI, human development index etc. and I still maintain it would be much higher without all the irrational friction factors in place.

Believe me I make the same complaints about the US - the last twenty years has seen the top economic group gain tremendously in wealth while the average citizen is now much worse off in real terms. But that's not IMO due to inherent structural flaws in the system.

Your comments about business sense here are very confusing to me so I won't address them, but IMO it doesn't matter how much "business sense" you have here if you are an outsider without any local "connections" - ie not just local legal etc. expertise but links into the existing power networks - IOW corruption - you don't stand a chance.

For example, how can someone who is paid a salary by a country's military or police agencies be allowed to openly be active in business while still on active duty? It might happen in a relatively tiny way in the west, but then it's a criminal conspiracy punishable by jail time and kept a dark secret, not flaunted. Boggles the mind!

In every developed nation that I know of, the job of the military is ONLY to protect the country and they have very little political or economic power, and being a policeman or soldier is a relatively low-status job for people without much education. Same with being a bureaucrat - in the west, working for the government is only for unambitious people who don't have what it takes to be successful in the real world, most successful people view government officials as parasites sucking the lifeblood of the world's real producers. Here these three categories are considered top cocks on the dunghill. Except of course for the patriarchs of those couple of dozen families that control 70+% of the country's wealth. And fact is they're mostly Chinese anyway, but I won't got there.

In any case I do pity the poor ordinary Thai, and no wonder they feel they only way to get ahead is to grab whatever they can however they can when the opportunity arises, no hope for a legitimate future if you're not in the "in" group.

[dananderson]

Apparently trisailor can't take the heat and in troll fashion-got out of the kitchen/ He posted raw opinion and hyperbole without a single fact to back his paltry thesis. Infaltion and corruption are having a stagerring effect on gdp growth here.

[FOODLOVER]

Bribery is part of the problem but the laws/rules governing a start up business are ridiculous.

If a Farang wishes to start a business that will employ Thai people he 1) has to have a Thai partner or 2) Two Thai Directors.

In the case 1, The Thai partner, who may not have any money can run up debts etc and the Farang is legally responsible. While partnerships are simular in the west there are ways to control irresponsibility. This does not seem to be the same here.

Case 2. The Thai directors must have full access to the bank account.

While I trust everyone !! it makes the whole idea untenable, even if the partner is the wife.

What are the laws in the country you are from? In the US it is very strict for a foreigner to own land or work with out tonnes of paperwork and time delays and partnerships. Employee's must be from the US unless you can prove that the position requires an expat.

That is not true. Anyone with money can own land in the US and can also own a business with out a partner! But it is true that the employees must be legal residents for work purposes. I sold a house to some Mexican citizens with out any special process and my Chinese friend started a business with out any American partner. No bribery was involved in either case, just the money to invest.

Buying is easy its having a green card that can get difficult.

[selftaopath]

I think Thailand has lots of potential, but because there are so many problems in the Thai mindset - to see things and to act according to what they see - that it will be impossible for this country to become a stable society and safe economic environment for foreign investors.

The corruption on every level, the looking away, the stubbornness, the nationalism, the xenophobia, the low education of the masses, the 'saving face' problem, the 'Thai rak Thai' attitude, the wide acceptance of overcharging foreigners, the bad state of the media, the censorship, the disadvantages of foreigners for investments and entrepreneurship, the racism, the preference of scamming over working, the immigration problems (forcing many to do lots of so-called 'visa runs' even when they are doing business here),.. the list is endless!

I have invested money in Thailand, but wouldn't do so anymore, as I realized that Thailand can't take off economically and society-wise in the same pace as most other SEA countries can do it. One actually has to worry to lose all money here because of some mafia figures with 'connections' that need a way to make some quick cash, some scam, some coup or nationalistic fineprint in the laws.

Man you understand Thailand perfectly - as far as I'm concerned. I too closed a "business" in BKK recently. It was as costly and difficult - maybe more - than opening a business. I will NEVER again consider any type of investment in Land of Scams (LOS). I would also suggest others strongly consider involvement in Lack of Sanctions (LOS). Rich and influential Thai families probably will continue sucking the life blood from Thailand, but the average Thai who has little or no running water in what they call their house, no trash pick up, tin roofs, and dirt floors might not have much to look forward to.

[Deeral]

So long as it is acceptable for a "police officer" to stop any motorist withput any reason and demand 200 baht - there is no hope for a graft-free Thailand.

I do feel however that most people vastly underestimate the extent of corruption nepotism and graft in Thailand and the true extent of it's infiltration into eery aspect of life in the country.

If you offer him 100thb in the right way he will take it, a Thai would pay 40 even 20thb if they looked skint !!

the fact that you have chosen to debate the amount of money one has to pay to a policeman a a bribe shows that the crux of the argument has gone straight over your head.

[Deeral]

I think Thailand has lots of potential, but because there are so many problems in the Thai mindset - to see things and to act according to what they see - that it will be impossible for this country to become a stable society and safe economic environment for foreign investors.

The corruption on every level, the looking away, the stubbornness, the nationalism, the xenophobia, the low education of the masses, the 'saving face' problem, the 'Thai rak Thai' attitude, the wide acceptance of overcharging foreigners, the bad state of the media, the censorship, the disadvantages of foreigners for investments and entrepreneurship, the racism, the preference of scamming over working, the immigration problems (forcing many to do lots of so-called 'visa runs' even when they are doing business here),.. the list is endless!

I have invested money in Thailand, but wouldn't do so anymore, as I realized that Thailand can't take off economically and society-wise in the same pace as most other SEA countries can do it. One actually has to worry to lose all money here because of some mafia figures with 'connections' that need a way to make some quick cash, some scam, some coup or nationalistic fineprint in the laws.

Man you understand Thailand perfectly - as far as I'm concerned. I too closed a "business" in BKK recently. It was as costly and difficult - maybe more - than opening a business. I will NEVER again consider any type of investment in Land of Scams (LOS). I would also suggest others strongly consider involvement in Lack of Sanctions (LOS). Rich and influential Thai families probably will continue sucking the life blood from Thailand, but the average Thai who has little or no running water in what they call their house, no trash pick up, tin roofs, and dirt floors might not have much to look forward to.

I would agree mostly with this and this is what I also consider to be one of the root causes of the appalling lack of customer service and consumer protection in Thailand - why would those in business want anything to interfer with the "good thing" they've got going to the exclusion of , foreigners and the vast majority of the Thai population.

see this thread....http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/468577-buyer-beware-the-retailers-are-out-to-get-you/page__p__4435563__fromsearch__1#entry4435563

Edited May 25, 2011 by Deeral

[ianbaggie]

to those who hate taksin, i just wanna know after reading this news or news from other newspaper, do you still find the democrat does not corrupt? are you that innocent?

Where does it attribut ANY of this to the democrats - anyway Thaksin will be back soon and "all corruption will vanish within 6 months"

[OZEMADE]

Apart from all the other stuff written here, didn't I just read somewhere that there is B10 Billion missing or withdrawn from a bank with no way to trace it and it is allegedly to be used for buying votes. I think there is a fair bit of corruption here for example. The thing I find amasing is, it can't be explained as to where it came from and where it went to? Bt10 Billion

[ianbaggie]

to those who hate taksin, i just wanna know after reading this news or news from other newspaper, do you still find the democrat does not corrupt? are you that innocent?

The Democrats Do Not run this country, A coalition government, headed by a Democrat Prime Minister runs this country... that coalition in itself breeds corruption.. Abhisit was voted in by a majority of the MPs.. PTP are a big part of this coalition... All are corrupt in this particular government or nothing would ever get done.. But don`t worry, if Thaksin gets in he is going to expel many many farangs from Thailand...beware .. soon to be no more visas longer than one month... What was that Abba song again....Money Money Money.....!!!

The only point wrong on your post is WHEN Thaksin comes back not "IF". Farang prepare to leave - even those with wives and children. K Thaksin doesnt care about you and wants you OUT!! Those protecting red shirts and PTP on this forum - see you on the plane WHEN he comes back!!

[ianbaggie]

to those who hate taksin, i just wanna know after reading this news or news from other newspaper, do you still find the democrat does not corrupt? are you that innocent?

This is a little off topic as you Taksin supporters seem to need to turn anything into the pro Taksin Debate. Taksin was THE MOST CORRUPT POLITICIAN we have had as PM in the 24 years I have been in Thailand. This is to include Suchinda. I am encouraging my Thai family too vote. When someone came with money for a vote, I simply doubled it and told them to vote their minds.

FYI, We have no color and all the colors are the corruption.

Not true. Thaksin supporters DO NOT attempt to turn everything into a pro Thaksin debate. On this forum almost every subject discussed no matter how far removed from politics it is you will get posters making anti Thaksin remarks. After all the majority of members seem to be anti Thaksin. Thaksin was corrupt but he certainly was NOT the most corrupt we have had. I have been in Thailand as long as you have. I do not attempt to influence my family or Thai freinds as to how to vote. That is THEIR business.

Yes he was - he was so corrupt that the corrupt had to remove him - and now hes using corruption to come back and be MORE corrupt!!:jap:

[ianbaggie]

Better start with the Politions now as they have already started bribing the Thai voters with Holidays and Bus trips for weekends fully paid for for a vote.

Do people still pay the POLICE, IMMIGRATION and the list goes on.

Quote

It's still legal for a minister here to endorse a contract with a bidding firm that is owned by the minister's son or daughter, she said.

More or less in hundreds of towns thoughout Thailand the voted in person is the one that is reaping the BIG rewards, most have HIGH connections, so no one can touch them. As for blaming outsideforeign companies amongst others is a bit real. This smell starts at home, but no one wants to see it.

Lets face it corruption been always part of their culture and always will and so is discrimination

'their' culture? this is my culture you're talking about.

doesnt make it any less true though - unless you can find evidence to refute all claims that thailand isnt corrupt as charged in the article

Edited May 25, 2011 by ianbaggie

[ianbaggie]

Western business is just upset that to do business in Thailand you have to actually have business sense and not just a degree from an ivy leage uni.

In 27 years here I have found that friends in the Army and Police force, in fact as many influential friends as you can amass, beats any qualifications or business acumen whatsoever.

HANUMAN - I dont care in the slightest bit what you are, what you find racist or whether or not you have the inteligence to interpret a post properly. I dont post on here to make YOUR life comfortable!! Get over it and get a grip!!!

In answer to Oberkommandos post - Thats what were saying!!

Edited May 25, 2011 by ianbaggie

[hanuman1]

Western business is just upset that to do business in Thailand you have to actually have business sense and not just a degree from an ivy leage uni.

In 27 years here I have found that friends in the Army and Police force, in fact as many influential friends as you can amass, beats any qualifications or business acumen whatsoever.

HANUMAN - I dont care in the slightest bit what you are, what you find racist or whether or not you have the inteligence to interpret a post properly. I dont post on here to make YOUR life comfortable!! Get over it and get a grip!!!

In answer to Oberkommandos post - Thats what were saying!!

What a lovely person you are.

Please reflect the fact that you don't care by not bothering to reply to my post. My initial point that your post was racist in my view, stands. Live with it and get on with your life.

[samurai]

to those who hate taksin, i just wanna know after reading this news or news from other newspaper, do you still find the democrat does not corrupt? are you that innocent?

The Democrats Do Not run this country, A coalition government, headed by a Democrat Prime Minister runs this country... that coalition in itself breeds corruption.. Abhisit was voted in by a majority of the MPs.. PTP are a big part of this coalition... All are corrupt in this particular government or nothing would ever get done.. But don`t worry, if Thaksin gets in he is going to expel many many farangs from Thailand...beware .. soon to be no more visas longer than one month... What was that Abba song again....Money Money Money.....!!!

PTP is part of what coalition?

And Thaksin is gonna to expel many many farangs?

Who told you that?

[ianbaggie]

to those who hate taksin, i just wanna know after reading this news or news from other newspaper, do you still find the democrat does not corrupt? are you that innocent?

The Democrats Do Not run this country, A coalition government, headed by a Democrat Prime Minister runs this country... that coalition in itself breeds corruption.. Abhisit was voted in by a majority of the MPs.. PTP are a big part of this coalition... All are corrupt in this particular government or nothing would ever get done.. But don`t worry, if Thaksin gets in he is going to expel many many farangs from Thailand...beware .. soon to be no more visas longer than one month... What was that Abba song again....Money Money Money.....!!!

PTP is part of what coalition?

And Thaksin is gonna to expel many many farangs?

Who told you that?

The last time Thaksin was in power he reduced the VISA length to one month causing man to have to leave. He also made it 10 times harder to get married VISAs even for westerners who have Thai wives and children with them. Has the truth today spoilt your illusion? Isnt he your friend anymore??

[ianbaggie]

Western business is just upset that to do business in Thailand you have to actually have business sense and not just a degree from an ivy leage uni.

In 27 years here I have found that friends in the Army and Police force, in fact as many influential friends as you can amass, beats any qualifications or business acumen whatsoever.

HANUMAN - I dont care in the slightest bit what you are, what you find racist or whether or not you have the inteligence to interpret a post properly. I dont post on here to make YOUR life comfortable!! Get over it and get a grip!!!

In answer to Oberkommandos post - Thats what were saying!!

What a lovely person you are.

Please reflect the fact that you don't care by not bothering to reply to my post. My initial point that your post was racist in my view, stands. Live with it and get on with your life.

..............and I dont care if it stands..............just the same as I dont care about you expressing your opinions about my post - your name calling is subjective and judging by your past posts you troll frequently.

[hanuman1]

In 27 years here I have found that friends in the Army and Police force, in fact as many influential friends as you can amass, beats any qualifications or business acumen whatsoever.

HANUMAN - I dont care in the slightest bit what you are, what you find racist or whether or not you have the inteligence to interpret a post properly. I dont post on here to make YOUR life comfortable!! Get over it and get a grip!!!

In answer to Oberkommandos post - Thats what were saying!!

What a lovely person you are.

Please reflect the fact that you don't care by not bothering to reply to my post. My initial point that your post was racist in my view, stands. Live with it and get on with your life.

..............and I dont care if it stands..............just the same as I dont care about you expressing your opinions about my post - your name calling is subjective and judging by your past posts you troll frequently.

Ahhh....you DO care, see?

Anyway, I absolutely did not call you any name (apart from 'lovely'). I said your post was racist, which I believe it is. I'm not trying to upset you, really I'm not. Why is it so important that you tell me you don't care? What if I don't care that you don't care? What if you don't care that I don't care that you don't care? See? It's all a bit silly, isn't it.

Anyway, I just wanted to let you know that we're not in your living room (although you individually may be), and this is a public forum. If you don't want people commenting on your posts why not just have a private PM session?

Cheers!

[samurai]

to those who hate taksin, i just wanna know after reading this news or news from other newspaper, do you still find the democrat does not corrupt? are you that innocent?

The Democrats Do Not run this country, A coalition government, headed by a Democrat Prime Minister runs this country... that coalition in itself breeds corruption.. Abhisit was voted in by a majority of the MPs.. PTP are a big part of this coalition... All are corrupt in this particular government or nothing would ever get done.. But don`t worry, if Thaksin gets in he is going to expel many many farangs from Thailand...beware .. soon to be no more visas longer than one month... What was that Abba song again....Money Money Money.....!!!

PTP is part of what coalition?

And Thaksin is gonna to expel many many farangs?

Who told you that?

The last time Thaksin was in power he reduced the VISA length to one month causing man to have to leave. He also made it 10 times harder to get married VISAs even for westerners who have Thai wives and children with them. Has the truth today spoilt your illusion? Isnt he your friend anymore??

What is truth and what is illusion?

You mean there wasn't that big corruption anymore and you had to get a real VISA, travel by your own instead using a 'agency' that let just your passport 'travel' to get the stamps?

Did the army government or the Democrats change anything back, do I get now VISA valid for many month longer that it was previously under Thaksin?

Ahh i forget, the Democrats are for nothing to blame because it was a coalition government with the PTP, right?

And as next step Thaksin is going to expel the members of the family man community?

[Lite Beer]

A racist post has been deleted.

[Rimmer]

Inflammatory post removed from view