Osama Bin Laden dead - USA has his body

[newtronbom]

Americans are tortured either way by the scum that you pity. We are forced to level the playing field to survive. If you cannot see that then you are choosing to ignore the obvious. Or you just hate America, as do many, for it's freedom and unparalleled successes.

Is your post directed at my post?

The scum that I pity includes an aussie that has been kept in prison and tortured, found to have had nothing to do with terrorism and has received compensation. So now you refer to innocents as scum. Well that's lovely.

http://www.smh.com.a...0212-1aran.html

This is where torture advocates fail. It's all well and good to think that anyone tortured is guilty and is scum but the reality is that innocent people are tortured, and sometimes they are tortured because of information gained from others that have been tortured.

I don't hate america. It's freedom and unparalleled success, as you put it, are of no concern to me, I have never been there nor wish to go there. How grandiose of you to proclaim your country the be all and end all. Not everyone wants the same freedoms and what you call success. I certainly don't.

I prefer to live in my country where there aren't the freedoms you have. Too much freedom has too many downsides. Unparalleled sucesses? Well I suppose that depends on what you define as success, it's all subjective. If you are happy with what you have in america and consider it a success then I'm happy for you. I prefer my country, with the good and the bad, and consider it a success. Of course there can always be better but to me, becoming like america is not what I would consider my country becoming a success.

How do you justify translating what I said regarding "scum" that tortures Americans to include innocent Aussies who have been tortured? Please explain.

"Not everyone wants" freedom? Ok. Yes, some wish to have government guarantees spanning from cradle to grave - thereby avoiding responsibility and self-reliance. If you fit into that category, good for you. America isn't, or at least wasn't, the type of country that supported your belief system. Unfortunately however, it is definitely heading in that direction (less freedoms) under its current regime.

I used innocent aussies as a reference, many nationalities have been tortured, by both american and al quaeda.

How do you get government guarantees and avoiding responsibilities out of my statement that not everyone wants the freedoms?

We don't have a constitutional right to free speech. I think that is a good thing as it stops idiots burning bibles, korans etc. Speeches inciting hatred is not allowed. Our freedom of speach is allowed under law but it is not in the constitution so it can be changed by legislation when morons go too far.

We don't have a right to bear arms, that too I think is a good thing.

Our government regulates many large businesses because they don't seem to be able to be trusted. I think that has been good for our country. We pay a very minor amount every year for Medicare that provides for free hospital treatment for those that cannot afford private hospital. That is the best thing our country has, in my opinion.

Of course there are things I don't like such as the govt giving $5k to every woman for every child, partial refunds for child care. Selling off public assets like railway lines and electricity which has caused enourmous price rises.

The list can go on for these things but that has nothing to do with self reliance and responsibility.

I also don't think it can really be said that any country has 'unparalleled success'. Everyone's idea of success is different.

I also consider that many countries cannot live with the freedom the US citizens have, some countries have a population that is far too diverse in their beliefs for such things.

I especially agree with your last point but you forgot to add greed and a penchant for criminal desires(a certain African country comes to mind).

[tmd5855]

ROFL America entered both WW1 and WW2 way LATE. check the historic datelines, not all of the phantasy HW movies!

Better late than never. The Allies would have lost without them.

.

actually,

It was the Russians that saved the allies. It was the Russians that destroyed the majority of the German land forces and infilcted the highest casualties (Deaths), American war materiel re-equiped the UK.

Pacific, now that is where America won it. But Britain would still have have recovered its interests in Asia. American in interests where America. America allowed the french to take over its interest in Indo-China, but that lead to Vietnam. maybe keeping the french out?? would have been a better Idea.

[Ulysses G.]

ROFL America entered both WW1 and WW2 way LATE. check the historic datelines, not all of the phantasy HW movies!

Better late than never. The Allies would have lost without them.

.

actually, It was the Russians that saved the allies.

The Russians did the bulk of the fighting it is true, but they - and the other Allies - would have been defeated if the US had not entered the war.

[Wallaby]

I condone ctechniques that results in saving lives.

I have repeated many times.........Honor or don't honor the law that we as Americans are signatories to.

Only THREE terrorists were water boarded and they were all senior al Qaeda leaders with thousands of deaths of innocents on their heads.

I feel no pity for these murderers - at all - and information that prevented several terrorist attacks and resulted in the death of their leader Bin Ladin was obtained.

Using enhanced interrogation on average suspects would be wrong, but there was no doubt about these big shot's guilt or that they had knowledge that could save many lives. The President's first duty is to protect Americans and he did his duty as he saw fit.

me neither UG, the worlds full of PC do gooders and we are the worse for it

it sickens me the lengths people go to to defend these peoples human rights

what about the rights of the law abiding citizens who are in the majority?

what about us?

pass the board and water over........

I note you have selectively used the term 'terrorists' in relation to waterboarding. I don't know what world you are living in when you state only 3 terrorists have been waterboarded. Are you including innocent people in your statistic or is it just terrorists, or believed terrorists. How would you know how many have been tortured anyway?

What about the rights of law abiding citizens? What about us? Well some of those law abiding citizens have been waterboarded/tortured. I'm not sure you'd be too happy to be kidnapped and held prisoner and tortured on the information provided by someone who was tortured. Perhaps your name being mentioned because the person didn't like you? Perhaps your name because they knew you had no involvement and they didn't want to give up someone important.

One must have their head in the sand if they think that doesn't happen.

[Wallaby]

A conflicting report about Bin Laden being armed and using his wife as a shield.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/osama-bin-laden-unarmed-when-killed-by-us-commandos-says-white-house/story-e6freon6-1226049516600

[GMoney]

He should have armed himself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIE_qEJutyA

[Gers1873]

A conflicting report about Bin Laden being armed and using his wife as a shield.

http://www.courierma...6-1226049516600

Armed or not?? Who cares as long as it was a confirmed kill. No doubts the conspiracy theorists will keep this saga running for years. I thought he'd have had four shields

[Naam]

I appreciate your respect for the rule of law although I believe it is misplaced. Where I absolutely take exception with you is your claim that enhanced interrogation does not save lives. It's been proven that it has and it very most likely did in the case of Bin Laden, unless you are under the misconception that he was retired. There is a difference between Japan's use of waterboarding and murder of U.S. soldiers and waterboarding by U.S. intelligence against captured terrorists.

the uncivilised Japanese used contaminated tap water. U.S. intelligence uses distilled water and in special cases Bud Light (aka "diluted horse piss") to teach the bloody Islamists a lesson they'll never forget.

[electau]

ROFL America entered both WW1 and WW2 way LATE. check the historic datelines, not all of the phantasy HW movies!

Better late than never. The Allies would have lost without them.

.

actually,

It was the Russians that saved the allies. It was the Russians that destroyed the majority of the German land forces and infilcted the highest casualties (Deaths), American war materiel re-equiped the UK.

Pacific, now that is where America won it. But Britain would still have have recovered its interests in Asia. American in interests where America. America allowed the french to take over its interest in Indo-China, but that lead to Vietnam. maybe keeping the french out?? would have been a better Idea.

The US only entered the war when Japan declared war on them by attacking Pearl Harbour.

Germany then declared war on the US. The US would have prefered to stay out due to public opinion and the fact that it had a neutralist policy.

There were really three different wars, Great Britain and Germany,from 1939 Japan and the USA from Dec 1941, Germany and the USSR. from 1941. Great Britain consisted of the Empire. It was Great Britain that took on the might of three other up and coming Empires, Italy under Mussolini, Germany under Hitler and the Imperial Japanese. The US was one of the Allies, Germany, Italy and Japan was the Axis. Russia was one of the allies. Japan declared war on the British Empire in Dec.1941.

And it should be pointed out that the US did not look on favourably on the British Empire because of our international trade practices.

It was in the end a war worth fighting. We could not afford to lose. When you start a war make sure that you can win it. A point that the US has missed since 1945.

The US has reached its peak, it will be China (PRC) that will be the world leader in the 21st Century and one should not underestimate Russia.

And IndoChina (now Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia) was part of the French Empire. It was occupied by the Japanese during WW2. The Japanese occupied over half of China.

[electau]

Bin Laden was very much a US problem, many analysts see him as rather irrevalant now, one has only to look at Yemen, Syria, Egypt and Libya on can only surmise what type of governments will areise there. And how will the US deal with Saudi Arabia if there is an uprising there?

[Mugg]

Can we start OVER !!!!!!!!! This is ridiculous .. I will start if I may be allowed... My Father can beat up your Father, neener, neener, neener...

[trisailer]

Killing OBL was a job that needed to be done. Pakistan can cry all it wants but the simple fact is that they have been playing us for fools all along. I'm glad that Obama was the guy who had the guts to get it done where bush failed. If I was bush I wouldn't accept Obama's invitation to ground zero either because it would just remind him of the empty promise he made on top of all that rubble. bush is another ivy league phoney who didn't have the guts to take OBL out in tora bora when brave men had him cornered.

[IAMSOBAD]

The US Navy Seals took a kill shot. Osama died! End of story.

Please take the TORTURE thread private. It seems totally off topic.

[lovetotravel]

Bin Laden was very much a US problem, many analysts see him as rather irrevalant now, one has only to look at Yemen, Syria, Egypt and Libya on can only surmise what type of governments will areise there. And how will the US deal with Saudi Arabia if there is an uprising there?

He was a world problem. Read a bit about his history. Many muslims were killed by his group or ones affiliated to his. Al Qaeda is hardy irrelevant now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden

[epicstuff]

It'll be difficult to exume his body later if what-ever evidence presented if is later disputed.

I'm I the only one who finds this whole thing slightly strange.

We were taught at school that properganda is the most powerful weapon available to man. And one should not nessecerily believe everything we read or are told.

still if it help Obama's popularity and speeds up compulsary micro chipping of the general public, we'll all sleep safer in our beds, right!

[SAffer]

SAffer ... don't tell me ... you hauled ass before the "Swart Gevaar" can take over everything right?

Nelson Mandela was jailed for treason, not for violent activity. And the armed struggle started when he was in prison; there were others who led the ANC at the time and campaigned for an armed struggle. Or are you saying the burning of dom passe is violence?

Amazing the <deleted> people spout on an open forum.

Next you'll be telling us how your Thai GF there has five degrees and comes from a rich family, and you're the first farang she's even spoken to. Does her family have a trilingual gardener too?

Ghandi ran the brits out of India with nonviolence. MLK changed America for the better with nonviolence. Those are two examples of success at changing the world through nonviolence. I have a much harder task of finding where violence ever produced sustainable change for the better.

An eye for and eye leaves everyone blind - Ghandi

Nelson Mandela, however, did use violence.

"a trilingual gardener" of course - Thai, English and Latin plant names, such guys are very common. Usually, they are head cook too, so also have a smattering of French.

edit to remove unwanted control codes

Hahaa... actually, I don't have a gardener in Bangkok, I am a mere student.

In Africa I have a gardener with my folks... he speaks English, Afrikaans, Tswana, Sotho, Zulu, Xhosa... Multilingual indeed, but illiterate.

I had a 'house boy' from Malawi who spoke Chechewa, and he was a wonderful cook ;-)

[SAffer]

Not all muslims called for the death of America.

Don't be ridiculous. It is very obvious that the Muslims "that call for the death of America" are the ones that he is talking about.

However, they are not the ones suffering the wrath of USA.

Some Muslims call for the death of America, now America has the right to invade whole countries, and refer to terrorists as 'Muslims'... right, so sorry to think that a 'muslim' civillian has the same right to life as an American.

[Ulysses G.]

I note you have selectively used the term 'terrorists' in relation to waterboarding. I don't know what world you are living in when you state only 3 terrorists have been waterboarded.

Only THREE TERRORISTS have been waterboarded and they were ALL senior al Qaeda leaders with blood on their hands. Continually making things up and presenting them as facts does not help your case.

For all the debate over waterboarding, it has been used on only three al Qaeda figures, according to current and former U.S. intelligence officials. As ABC News first reported in September, waterboarding has not been used since 2003 and has been specifically prohibited since Gen. Michael Hayden took over as CIA director. http://blogs.abcnews...sive-only-.html

On 6 February 2008, the CIA director General Michael Hayden stated that the CIA had used waterboarding on three prisoners during 2002 and 2003, namely Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Abu Zubayda and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri.^[10][134]

^{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding}

[Wallaby]

I note you have selectively used the term 'terrorists' in relation to waterboarding. I don't know what world you are living in when you state only 3 terrorists have been waterboarded.

Only THREE TERRORISTS have been waterboarded and they were ALL senior al Qaeda leaders with blood on their hands. Continually making things up and presenting them as facts does not help your case.

For all the debate over waterboarding, it has been used on only three al Qaeda figures, according to current and former U.S. intelligence officials. As ABC News first reported in September, waterboarding has not been used since 2003 and has been specifically prohibited since Gen. Michael Hayden took over as CIA director. http://blogs.abcnews...sive-only-.html

According to who? The CIA? You are easily led aren't you. Not only are you easily led, you are outright lying. Google David Hicks, he wasn't one of those high ranking alqaeda terrorists.

Did you every think that they may be the only ones that can actually prove to being waterboarded? Did you actually think that prisoners in other countries were waterboarded but only on the directive of the CIA, and so removing the CIA from blame?

About time you stopped stating lies as facts.

[Wallaby]

Just for a little more info, there was another man named Habib who was also waterboarded. He was never charged with anything and has received a substantial payout from our govt.

http://theglobalrealm.com/2011/04/28/guantanamo-dossiers-confirm-australian-government-criminality/

[Ulysses G.]

Hicks was a member of the Taliban and they were supposedly interogated in Egypt. False claims and figments of your imagination are not "facts".

[luckizuchinni]

Not to be flippant, but I would rather be waterboarded than have my head cut off while a hooded man spouts religious propaganda behind me.

I don't want either, to be honest as I rather like my comfortable life here in Thailand. And I also don't agree with us waterboarding prisoners for a number of reasons. But I also believe that we are overblowing things here.

Choice A. Waterboarding

B. Beheading

Choice A. Being forced to join a naked pyramid with other prisoners

B. Having my hands tied and being forced to jump of a building

In both cases, I would choose choice A. But the public outcry has been fare greater with the choice A's than with the B's.

[Wallaby]

Hicks was a member of the Taliban and they were supposedly interogated in Egypt. False claims and figments of your imagination are not "facts".

Hicks was not a High ranking AL QAEDA terrorist.

It is obvious you have not read much about Hicks and Habib otherwise you wouldn't have made your post. He was also interrogated in Guantanamo. Habib was interrogated in Egypt, under the control of the US. Read the article and other articles that are easliy accessible on google.

It isn't that hard.

[FOODLOVER]

Not all muslims called for the death of America.

Don't be ridiculous. It is very obvious that the Muslims "that call for the death of America" are the ones that he is talking about.

However, they are not the ones suffering the wrath of USA.

Some Muslims call for the death of America, now America has the right to invade whole countries, and refer to terrorists as 'Muslims'... right, so sorry to think that a 'muslim' civillian has the same right to life as an American.

holy crap! who is suffering from our wrath now? so much wrath and so little time.

[WyattEarp]

I find it highly suspicious that they dumped the body before anyone could verify it was really OBL. He probably was killed already a long time ago or he was found dead of old age or whatever and they saw an opportunity to take credit for his death.

The story is as full as holes as a swiss cheese.

Supposedly OBL was found "struggling but unarmed" but they still claim they killed him.

A 1000 mile helicopter ride at night, through Pakistan, without getting detected.

And what is that about CNN repeating "the million-dollar compound" about where he was supposedly found. From the footage it is clearly a shack, probably $50,000 at most, including the land plot.

- Signed "skeptical"

[Wallaby]

Not to be flippant, but I would rather be waterboarded than have my head cut off while a hooded man spouts religious propaganda behind me.

I don't want either, to be honest as I rather like my comfortable life here in Thailand. And I also don't agree with us waterboarding prisoners for a number of reasons. But I also believe that we are overblowing things here.

Choice A. Waterboarding

B. Beheading

Choice A. Being forced to join a naked pyramid with other prisoners

B. Having my hands tied and being forced to jump of a building

In both cases, I would choose choice A. But the public outcry has been fare greater with the choice A's than with the B's.

What you say is correct.

The public outcry is because we in the west hold ourselves out to be less barbaric and a great upholder of human rights. But when it comes down to it, we too, regress.

[WAYNEandAEI]

Obama said in his speech "one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you. May God bless you. And may God bless the United States of America."

Robert Burns once wrote:

Ye hypocrites! are these your pranks?

To murder men, and give God thanks?

Desist for shame! Proceed no further:

God won't accept your thanks for Murther.

God help America

[Maseratimartin]

Hello, this gives us another reason to celebrate. Cheers

I think we need to wait till also the last "Bin laden...or bin Mustafa..." has been shot!

Only a dead "Bin..." is a good "Bin...".

And stop the shit with: "God bless you...!"

Religion is the reason behind all this shit....now and since ever before!

Or was it better when stupid christians with a cross on their shirt were riding across countries and killing in the name of God (church)?

I have only respect to the peacefull religions!

[FOODLOVER]

Hello, this gives us another reason to celebrate. Cheers

I think we need to wait till also the last "Bin laden...or bin Mustafa..." has been shot!

Only a dead "Bin..." is a good "Bin...".

And stop the shit with: "God bless you...!"

Religion is the reason behind all this shit....now and since ever before!

Or was it better when stupid christians with a cross on their shirt were riding across countries and killing in the name of God (church)?

I have only respect to the peacefull religions!

which ones?

[doggie888888]

Here is an extract from an article by one Geoffrey Robertson QC, which basically questions the "ugly triumphalism" that greeted OBL's execution:

"When the time came to consider the fate of men more steeped in wickedness than bin Laden - the Nazi leaders - the British government wanted them hanged within six hours of capture. The president Harry Truman demurred, citing the conclusion of Justice Robert Jackson that summary execution "would not sit easily on the American conscience or be remembered by our children with pride . . . the only course is to determine the innocence or guilt of the accused after a hearing as dispassionate as the times will permit and upon a record that will leave our reasons and motives clear".

He insisted upon judgment at Nuremberg, which has confounded Holocaust-deniers ever since. Killing bin Laden instead of capturing him was a missed opportunity to prove this charismatic leader was a vicious criminal, who deserved to die in prison, not as a martyr to his inhuman cause."

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/bin-ladens-summary-execution-maketh-the-man-martyr-and-myth-20110503-1e6md.html#ixzz1LMruqdeu