Osama Bin Laden dead - USA has his body

[Ulysses G.]

We were not talking about Bin Laden, we were talking about whether the U.S. bombs and kills innocent people.

You seem to have got the topic backwards.

However. if you are arguing against all war, maybe you have a point, but that is the way that mankind has solved its problems from the begiinning of time. EVERY country kills civilians in warfare, but some armies do their best to avoid it while still accomplishing the mission that they have been ordered to do.

Trying to pretend that the US is any worse than any other country at war is nonsense. That is why they say that war is hell.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[elcent]

Interesting. You are the first person that I know of that believes this. The admission by OBL of causing the killings and stated determination to cause more deaths does not provide sufficient evidence for you of his guilt. What would?

He also claimed many times that he had nothing to do with the attacks on WTC. If he really died in 2001 as reported, then how could he have ever confessed?. Even if he was alive until a week ago or maybe still is, these blurry clips would stand no chance in any court unless there's more evidence. I'm sure you'll find millions that don't agree with the whole story as presented to us. It just doesn't fit together on so many things.

But one thing I have seen was when Reuters journalists and many others died because one had a camera with him and that was interpreted as AK47, I must come to the conclusion that this was not the only incidence of wrong judgements or even conspiracies in many instances. So let the leaks come forward, there are wrong judgements and lots of conspiracies, this I'm certain.

And don't forget the PSYOPS in these games. You can push someone constatnly into the corner(bully) until he/she has had enough.

PS: I read many books including the Quran - on the religious aspect. I do know that he's not innocent, just by reading the Jihadis' concepts. But this was likely used and conceived as pre-text to judge him on everything else. If he would have followed the book(s) by the word as a real jihadi does, he would have never agreed to support the Americans in the war against Russia.

Edited May 9, 2011 by elcent

[crusader79]

We were not talking about Bin Laden, we were talking about whether the U.S. bombs and kills innocent people.

The U.S. has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children in Iraq, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia (to name just the most obvious examples) in pursuit of its geopolitical goals.

Only an American could argue in all sincerity that dropping bombs or firing missiles from such an altitude or distance that you can't actually see who is being killed means those deaths are 'unintentional'.

I tried to explain why.

I suggest that you read the title of this thread.

"The U.S. has never sought to intentionally murder innocents. However, terrorists, by definition, do intentionally murder innocents. That is the difference which most in the civilized world understand."

[venturalaw]

Interesting. You are the first person that I know of that believes this. The admission by OBL of causing the killings and stated determination to cause more deaths does not provide sufficient evidence for you of his guilt. What would?

He also claimed many times that he had nothing to do with the attacks on WTC. If he really died in 2001 as reported, then how could he have ever confessed?. Even if he was alive until a week ago or maybe still is, these blurry clips would stand no chance in any court unless there's more evidence. I'm sure you'll find millions that don't agree with the whole story as presented to us. It just doesn't fit together on so many things.

But one thing I have seen was when Reuters journalists and many others died because one had a camera with him and that was interpreted as AK47, I must come to the conclusion that this was not the only incidence of wrong judgements or even conspiracies in many instances. So let the leaks come forward, there are wrong judgements and lots of conspiracies, this I'm certain.

And don't forget the PSYOPS in these games. You can push someone constatnly into the corner(bully) until he/she has had enough.

Precisely how I believe the majority of Americans feel. We've had enough. I'm all for America practicing complete isolationism. Pull all troops out of all countries and let them all fend for themselves. But attack us and pay the price.

[elcent]

Interesting. You are the first person that I know of that believes this. The admission by OBL of causing the killings and stated determination to cause more deaths does not provide sufficient evidence for you of his guilt. What would?

He also claimed many times that he had nothing to do with the attacks on WTC. If he really died in 2001 as reported, then how could he have ever confessed?. Even if he was alive until a week ago or maybe still is, these blurry clips would stand no chance in any court unless there's more evidence. I'm sure you'll find millions that don't agree with the whole story as presented to us. It just doesn't fit together on so many things.

But one thing I have seen was when Reuters journalists and many others died because one had a camera with him and that was interpreted as AK47, I must come to the conclusion that this was not the only incidence of wrong judgements or even conspiracies in many instances. So let the leaks come forward, there are wrong judgements and lots of conspiracies, this I'm certain.

And don't forget the PSYOPS in these games. You can push someone constatnly into the corner(bully) until he/she has had enough.

Precisely how I believe the majority of Americans feel. We've had enough. I'm all for America practicing complete isolationism. Pull all troops out of all countries and let them all fend for themselves. But attack us and pay the price.

After withdrawing, a house-cleaning would help a lot too.

[venturalaw]

Interesting. You are the first person that I know of that believes this. The admission by OBL of causing the killings and stated determination to cause more deaths does not provide sufficient evidence for you of his guilt. What would?

He also claimed many times that he had nothing to do with the attacks on WTC. If he really died in 2001 as reported, then how could he have ever confessed?. Even if he was alive until a week ago or maybe still is, these blurry clips would stand no chance in any court unless there's more evidence. I'm sure you'll find millions that don't agree with the whole story as presented to us. It just doesn't fit together on so many things.

But one thing I have seen was when Reuters journalists and many others died because one had a camera with him and that was interpreted as AK47, I must come to the conclusion that this was not the only incidence of wrong judgements or even conspiracies in many instances. So let the leaks come forward, there are wrong judgements and lots of conspiracies, this I'm certain.

And don't forget the PSYOPS in these games. You can push someone constatnly into the corner(bully) until he/she has had enough.

PS: I read many books including the Quran - on the religous aspect. I do know that he's not innocent, just by reading the Jihad's concepts. But this was likely used and conceived as pre-text to judge him on everything else. If he would have followed the book(s) by the word as a real jihadi does, he would have never agreed to support the Americans in the war against Russia.

By saying that you "know that he's not innocent", I take that to mean that you know that he was guilty. So what is your argument against America stopping him?

Edited May 9, 2011 by venturalaw

[FOODLOVER]

The families of the dead don't care whether it was intentional or not, dead is dead.

This casual American acceptance of the death of innocents 'as long as we kill them with the best of intentions' is what Graham Greene explored in The Quiet American (1955).

The problem is that America's self-image as the promoter and defender of freedom and democracy clashes with its necessity as the world's superpower to practice realpolitik in pursuit of long term goals (as the British did before them).

The combination of hypocrisy and self-delusion that results from that clash between self-image and reality drives other nationalities mad. They just want a little honesty and realism.

Americans in turn resent that the world often seems to take their country's half-century containment of the Soviet Union and enormous contribution to growth and stability since the Second World War for granted. They just want a little love and appreciation.

In the meantime the tit for tat sniping on ThaiVisa just goes on and on

It really is simple. If a terrorist pledges that it is his goal to take American lives and has successfully carried out said aspiration on multiple occasions, then America has two choices: 1. Hope that he changes his mind, or 2. Stop him.

Do you really see any other way? Your position that if America defends itself then it is merely promoting it's superpower status does not make sense because you are ignoring the condition upon which America, for it's very survival, has taken action.

We were not talking about Bin Laden, we were talking about whether the U.S. bombs and kills innocent people.

The U.S. has killed hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children in Iraq, Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia (to name just the most obvious examples) in pursuit of its geopolitical goals.

Only an American could argue in all sincerity that dropping bombs or firing missiles from such an altitude or distance that you can't actually see who is being killed means those deaths are 'unintentional'.

I tried to explain why.

I suggest that you read the title of this thread.

Reuters: FLASH: Osama bin Laden is dead - two U.S. officials say

[elcent]

Interesting. You are the first person that I know of that believes this. The admission by OBL of causing the killings and stated determination to cause more deaths does not provide sufficient evidence for you of his guilt. What would?

He also claimed many times that he had nothing to do with the attacks on WTC. If he really died in 2001 as reported, then how could he have ever confessed?. Even if he was alive until a week ago or maybe still is, these blurry clips would stand no chance in any court unless there's more evidence. I'm sure you'll find millions that don't agree with the whole story as presented to us. It just doesn't fit together on so many things.

But one thing I have seen was when Reuters journalists and many others died because one had a camera with him and that was interpreted as AK47, I must come to the conclusion that this was not the only incidence of wrong judgements or even conspiracies in many instances. So let the leaks come forward, there are wrong judgements and lots of conspiracies, this I'm certain.

And don't forget the PSYOPS in these games. You can push someone constatnly into the corner(bully) until he/she has had enough.

PS: I read many books including the Quran - on the religous aspect. I do know that he's not innocent, just by reading the Jihad's concepts. But this was likely used and conceived as pre-text to judge him on everything else. If he would have followed the book(s) by the word as a real jihadi does, he would have never agreed to support the Americans in the war against Russia.

By saying that you "know that he's not innocent", I take that to mean that you know that he is guilty. So what is your argument against America stopping him?

I suggest you read the Haddiths Surrahs and the Quran to understand my point.

[chuckd]

Interesting. You are the first person that I know of that believes this. The admission by OBL of causing the killings and stated determination to cause more deaths does not provide sufficient evidence for you of his guilt. What would?

He also claimed many times that he had nothing to do with the attacks on WTC. If he really died in 2001 as reported, then how could he have ever confessed?. Even if he was alive until a week ago or maybe still is, these blurry clips would stand no chance in any court unless there's more evidence. I'm sure you'll find millions that don't agree with the whole story as presented to us. It just doesn't fit together on so many things.

But one thing I have seen was when Reuters journalists and many others died because one had a camera with him and that was interpreted as AK47, I must come to the conclusion that this was not the only incidence of wrong judgements or even conspiracies in many instances. So let the leaks come forward, there are wrong judgements and lots of conspiracies, this I'm certain.

And don't forget the PSYOPS in these games. You can push someone constatnly into the corner(bully) until he/she has had enough.

Precisely how I believe the majority of Americans feel. We've had enough. I'm all for America practicing complete isolationism. Pull all troops out of all countries and let them all fend for themselves. But attack us and pay the price.

I agree with your isolationism idea completely. Close all those military bases down everywhere in the world. Put thousands of local citizens around the world out of work and let the landlords find somebody else to rent to.

Bring all those soldiers home and let them guard the borders.

[elcent]

I really believe you guys withdraw from any and all Muslim countries. You have messed up with things that otherwise would look different by now.

Kahn, the Pakistan father of the atomic bomb just as an example. Kahn was arrested in Europe for stealing sensitive information crucial for nuclear bombs and on trial. The CIA negotiated for him and got him out. He went back to Pakistan and made the nuclear bomb and opened trades with nuke materials with North Korea, Iran, Libya and other States.

The list of mistakes is very very long.

[venturalaw]

Interesting. You are the first person that I know of that believes this. The admission by OBL of causing the killings and stated determination to cause more deaths does not provide sufficient evidence for you of his guilt. What would?

He also claimed many times that he had nothing to do with the attacks on WTC. If he really died in 2001 as reported, then how could he have ever confessed?. Even if he was alive until a week ago or maybe still is, these blurry clips would stand no chance in any court unless there's more evidence. I'm sure you'll find millions that don't agree with the whole story as presented to us. It just doesn't fit together on so many things.

But one thing I have seen was when Reuters journalists and many others died because one had a camera with him and that was interpreted as AK47, I must come to the conclusion that this was not the only incidence of wrong judgements or even conspiracies in many instances. So let the leaks come forward, there are wrong judgements and lots of conspiracies, this I'm certain.

And don't forget the PSYOPS in these games. You can push someone constatnly into the corner(bully) until he/she has had enough.

Precisely how I believe the majority of Americans feel. We've had enough. I'm all for America practicing complete isolationism. Pull all troops out of all countries and let them all fend for themselves. But attack us and pay the price.

I agree with your isolationism idea completely. Close all those military bases down everywhere in the world. Put thousands of local citizens around the world out of work and let the landlords find somebody else to rent to.

Bring all those soldiers home and let them guard the borders.

Then all of the complainers would whine that America feels that it is too good for everyone else. Becoming an isolationist country wouldn't shut them up, but who cares? They'd still have their hands out wanting something for nothing. Always have and always will.

Edited May 9, 2011 by venturalaw

[Ulysses G.]

Precisely how I believe the majority of Americans feel. We've had enough. I'm all for America practicing complete isolationism. Pull all troops out of all countries and let them all fend for themselves. But attack us and pay the price.

I thought that was how most Americans were starting to feel - until Obama decided to attack Libya.

[JUDAS]

Precisely how I believe the majority of Americans feel. We've had enough. I'm all for America practicing complete isolationism. Pull all troops out of all countries and let them all fend for themselves. But attack us and pay the price.

I thought that was how most Americans were starting to feel - until Obama decided to attack Libya.

I'll give you odds of a million to one that America would never do that. Could also give you a million reasons ( well, maybe not that many )as to why.

[rubl]

Precisely how I believe the majority of Americans feel. We've had enough. I'm all for America practicing complete isolationism. Pull all troops out of all countries and let them all fend for themselves. But attack us and pay the price.

Isolationism, brilliant. Cut all ties with the rest of the world. Solves a major part of the $14 trillion debt as well. Why didn't anyone thought of this before ?

[venturalaw]

Precisely how I believe the majority of Americans feel. We've had enough. I'm all for America practicing complete isolationism. Pull all troops out of all countries and let them all fend for themselves. But attack us and pay the price.

I thought that was how most Americans were starting to feel - until Obama decided to attack Libya.

I'll give you odds of a million to one that America would never do that. Could also give you a million reasons ( well, maybe not that many )as to why.

I agree with you that complete withdrawal will never happen. One reason is because of America's very positive relationships with many countries, including Thailand.

[IvanDobsky]

Isolationism, brilliant. Cut all ties with the rest of the world. Solves a major part of the $14 trillion debt as well. Why didn't anyone thought of this before ?

America can't do that, they need oil and the war-machine needs profits.

I feel doubt over the ever-changing official version of OBL's demise; dismay at the power of the military-industrial complex; concern that some Americans appear oblivious to the last hundred years of foreign policy conducted around the world in their name; and a feeling that more people are realising just who runs our politics.

Why did Obama fudge the healthcare bill and leave the government unable to negotiate drug prices with pharmaceutical companies? Why didn't he close Gitmo like he said he would? Why did he stir up the Libyan rebellion? Well, my opinion is that he is only allowed to do certain things. He has no real power. Obama is a great orator and that's all.

Eisenhower warned us "In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist"

Abraham Lincoln said "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country; corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in High Places will follow, and the Money Power of the Country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the People, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety for the safety of my country than ever before, even in the midst of war"

These are ideas, opinions and facts that today would be dismissed out of hand by mainstream media as "conspiracy theories".

[rubl]

Some more insight

"Mr. Panetta said that the CIA still has much to learn about Mr. bin Laden’s years as a fugitive, but said the fact that he lived in Pakistan for six years without phone service “suggests the involvement of AT&T.”"

http://www.borowitzreport.com/

[Wallaby]

UG has said that the bombing of innocents is an opinon, not fact.

Please provide a quote to that statement that I never made.

Just read back back on your earlier responses. I said that you missed this fact...

a nation that can't do any wrong even if it bombs the living shit out of innocent human beings in various countries.

You stated that this was a (rather absurd) opinion.

So it is quite plain to see you consider it a rather absurd opinion that the US has bombed innocents. Note there was no mention anywhere about intent. Your belief and position is clear.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Wallaby

[Ulysses G.]

You are making up nonsense again (What is new). This is the whole post that I said was "a rather absurd opinion" and I am not even sure who he is talking about.

You are (as usual) taking one line out of context and claiming that I said something that I never said.

Besides that, I can only guess that the "greatest nation on Earth" - in Naam's opinion - is Iran since he consistently posts hate speech about America and Britain and makes up justifications and excuses for Iran and its leader.

you obviously understand none of the facts and affinities i mentioned. but then, as a citizen of The Greatest Nation on Earth™ you are not required to understand anything. feel free to accuse anybody sympathising with terrorists when he mentions facts and draws the attention to the feelings of millions. it just adds to some (not all) of your ridiculous and apologistic postings in favour of a nation that can't do any wrong even if it bombs the living shit out of innocent human beings in various countries.

By the way, this indeed is a (rather absurd) opinion.

If that is not clear enough, every single country that goes to war kills civilians by mistake, but Bin Ladin targeted them specifically.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[electau]

What really upset the USA was the fact that the weapons used were all US built obtained in the USA by the terrorists who were Saudi Arabian citizens who were residing in the USA and they were able to hit not only WTC#1 and WTC#2 but the very heart of the US defence system otherwise known as "The Pentagon".

The US thought they were invincible. They were not.

What are you classifying as 'weapons'?

The box cutters or the airplanes?

The aircraft, they were used as missiles on their targets. Everything for their operation was sourced from within the USA.

[Wallaby]

Anyway, enough of that.

To me it is patently obvious OBL is no longer of this world. I would also think that there are going to be some serious heads rolled in Pakistan over both OBL and the CIA being there.

[Ulysses G.]

Bin Ladin is dead indeed.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[chuckd]

What really upset the USA was the fact that the weapons used were all US built obtained in the USA by the terrorists who were Saudi Arabian citizens who were residing in the USA and they were able to hit not only WTC#1 and WTC#2 but the very heart of the US defence system otherwise known as "The Pentagon".

The US thought they were invincible. They were not.

What are you classifying as 'weapons'?

The box cutters or the airplanes?

The aircraft, they were used as missiles on their targets. Everything for their operation was sourced from within the USA.

You have changed your original comment. You said everything was 'built' in the US and now you claim 'sourced'. A minor point I know but a difference none the less.

These 19 hijackers were able to take over the aircraft when the conventional wisdom was for the passengers not to confront hijackers. At that time no aircraft had been used as missiles on suicide missions.

Now the mindset of airline passengers has changed and it would be very difficult to imagine a few Islamic radicals with box cutters (probably 'built' in China by the way) being able to duplicate the takeover scenario, in the US at least.

See the following article...

Passengers, Flight Crew Subdue Unruly Man on SFO-Bound Plane

May 9, 2011 6:25 PM

SAN FRANCISCO INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT (CBS 5 / KCBS) — A passenger aboard a Chicago-to-San Francisco flight was wrestled to the floor by flight attendants and fellow passengers late Sunday night after the man began yelling and banging on the cockpit door as the flight approached SFO, according to authorities.

28-year-old Rageh Almurisi of Vallejo was seated in the coach section of American Airlines Flight 1561 when he allegedly started to walk briskly toward the front of the plane within 30 minutes of its scheduled landing at SFO, San Francisco police Sgt. Michael Rodriguez said.

“He had been yelling ‘Allah Akbar’ running down the aisle and then either him of passengers started yelling go, go, go,” Wai said.

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/05/09/passengers-and-flight-crew-subdue-unruly-man-on-sfo-bound-plane/

[koheesti]

Interesting. You are the first person that I know of that believes this. The admission by OBL of causing the killings and stated determination to cause more deaths does not provide sufficient evidence for you of his guilt. What would?

He also claimed many times that he had nothing to do with the attacks on WTC. If he really died in 2001 as reported, then how could he have ever confessed?. Even if he was alive until a week ago or maybe still is, these blurry clips would stand no chance in any court unless there's more evidence. I'm sure you'll find millions that don't agree with the whole story as presented to us. It just doesn't fit together on so many things.

But one thing I have seen was when Reuters journalists and many others died because one had a camera with him and that was interpreted as AK47, I must come to the conclusion that this was not the only incidence of wrong judgements or even conspiracies in many instances. So let the leaks come forward, there are wrong judgements and lots of conspiracies, this I'm certain.

And don't forget the PSYOPS in these games. You can push someone constatnly into the corner(bully) until he/she has had enough.

Precisely how I believe the majority of Americans feel. We've had enough. I'm all for America practicing complete isolationism. Pull all troops out of all countries and let them all fend for themselves. But attack us and pay the price.

+1

[luckizuchinni]

As Peter Bergen said in the latest interview - "It's time to burry the concept of AlQaeda" then I ask who was the creator of that concept at the beginning?

Well, uh, that would be Osama bin Laden?

[pomeloseed]

He also claimed many times that he had nothing to do with the attacks on WTC.

Where did he ever claim he had nothing to do with WTC? source please.

[luckizuchinni]

We were not talking about Bin Laden, we were talking about whether the U.S. bombs and kills innocent people.

You seem to have got the topic backwards.

However. if you are arguing against all war, maybe you have a point, but that is the way that mankind has solved its problems from the begiinning of time. EVERY country kills civilians in warfare, but some armies do their best to avoid it while still accomplishing the mission that they have been ordered to do.

Trying to pretend that the US is any worse than any other country at war is nonsense. That is why they say that war is hell.

The US has targeted civilians. The fire bombing of Tokyo and Dresden (well, US and British on that one), the atomic bombs. But most of the campaigns in WWII were targeted at military targets while knowing civilians would probably get killed. It was more of an accepted cost. (And both the Germans and Japanese had not only bombed civilian populations, but systemically killed them as a matter of policy.)

Since then, I can't think of any real case where civilians have been a strategic target. Civilian deaths have been a regrettable consequence of military or CIA operations.

Of course, whether intentional or not, if a cruise missile is coming down on your head while you sleep, dead is dead.

As a moral issue, I do see the difference between "collateral damage," where civilians are killed, and directed civilian targeting. And I do appreciate the extent to which the US forces try and minimize civilian casualties, even when that puts US soldiers and Marines at a greater risk.

If you can't accept the difference, if you continually blame the US military and absolve the terrorists, well, then we are just at opposite ends of the spectrum.

[Spee]

The above search leads to a moved site with no link.

http://www.gutsy-call.com

And this website leads directly to the Obama re-election campaign donation website.

Go figure.

Is it now any wonder why the lamestream media buzzword for the next two days after the OBL execution was all about Barack's "gutsy call?" (which then shows up in search engines, which then return links to donation sites)

Apologies, I posted the wrong link, which as "elcent" pointed out, does go to a different site.

Here is the originating story, but unfortunately the link in the story isn't working either. Looks like someone has been playing games with web links.

http://hotair.com/archives/2011/05/05/good-news-gutsycall-com-now-redirects-to-obama-campaign-site/

[SteeleJoe]

I

Good - but wont make one bit of difference. There are hundreds willing to 'martyr' themselves in his place.

Don't agree...Nazism pretty much died along with HItler...Italian and Spanish racism with Musolini and Franco. Individuals in history make a difference.

I'm very pleased that the man is dead. But if you think his death means the end of Islamist terrorism, or even al Queda, (or think that the Nazi party et all are analogous to either) then with all due respect you really don't know much about either.

[SteeleJoe]

let him burn in hell

That's a bit strong - he'll get what he deserves.

millions of people thought he was a great man.

A bit strong?!

And millions of people thought Hitler was a great man too. So what?

There is no right and no wrong.

Wow. Moral relativists of your stripe are abound and are always pretty apparent (and transparent) but I've never seen anyone actually come right out and say that. Breathtaking.