Muslim men removed from U.S. flight after pilot refuses to fly them

[JUDAS]

I wonder if individuals wearing yarmulkes should have been banned from flying British aircraft during the British Mandate.

The King David Hotel was British Army Headquarters and the Brits were helping the Arabs at the time and had violated another agreement with the Jews. They were not targetting Brittish civilians.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

[metisdead]

A post containing inflammatory hyperbole has been removed. This post containing the same link posted by the same member was removed previously, do not post it again.

[geriatrickid]

I wonder if individuals wearing yarmulkes should have been banned from flying British aircraft during the British Mandate.

The King David Hotel was British Army Headquarters and the Brits were helping the Arabs at the time and had violated another agreement with the Jews. They were not targetting Brittish civilians.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter

Excuse me, but the attack on the British military position at the King David was one event. If one wishes to condemn, fine, but it was one event and was not one of thousands or tens of thousands of such attacks. It is erroneous to draw a conclusion based upon one act of that nature. British colonial forces suffered far wose and numerous attacks in other colonies/occupied lands such as Canada, Africa, Malaysia, Burma and India. The Canadian rebellion burnt down Parliament. The Malaysians and Africans murdered British soldiers and civilians on almost daily basis. It was the cost of European governments having a colonial presence. My family benefited from that colonial rule in Asia and the stories I have heard suggest to me that the British authorities were not very nice to the locals.

[Steely Dan]

I ask you the same, have you ever seen an American Muslim Religious blow himself up on a domesticate flight in America ???

Thought not.

The point is that it is the nature ( and stupidity ) of the profiling that is "vile" not my comment per se.

Nope, but a fair few incite others to so do, the would be shoe bomber attended a mosque where an extremist Iman made speeches inciting others to commit violent acts.

As for profiling, with respect to airport security this is one of the few areas where common sense still trumps political correctness, thankfully.

[Ulysses G.]

I ask you the same, have you ever seen an American Muslim Religious blow himself up on a domesticate flight in America ???

Radical Muslims have tried repeatedly on International flights and once would be more than enough if you were on the plane.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[lomatopo]

Purely hypothetically, but what if a Muslim pilot on Thai International refused to carry 2 Rabbis or made them do a second security screening ??

Because he was suspicious of the way they dressed.

Would those who are on record as stating the captain has " absolute command " support this action ???

I think not.

I'm not sure how this purely hypothetical situation relates to the one under discussion?

The captain is responsible for the safety of all passengers, including in this case, the two Muslims. There have been quite few, perhaps hundreds, of incidents like this. Not all get publicized; but maybe they should. Sometimes the flights proceed, sometimes they return to the gate and some are taken off the flight. In some of the cases I've read first-hand reports about, less than intelligent or tolerant passengers complain vociferously to other passengers and flight attendants about some foreign-looking passengers. The flight attendants can recognize potentially belligerent behavior so they inform the captain. The last thing the captain needs is an incident in flight where some liquored-up hillbillies mete out justice with perhaps a physical attack on the 'ferners'. The captain chooses to deal with the situation on the ground where options abound. This isn't the first time this has happened, and it won't be the last, unfortunately. Also I expect most flight crew have reviewed this type of situation in training, and I assume this flight crew handled this situation to the best of their ability in accordance with their company's guidelines.

[Wallaby]

it was one event and was not one of thousands or tens of thousands of such attacks. It is erroneous to draw a conclusion based upon one act of that nature.

How many attempts to blow up planes in the US by muslims?

[dave_boo]

Sorry, but I can't agree with the pilots' actions if it all went down as reported in the article.

If these men went through all the security checks, then they should have been allowed to fly. The US is a free country where freedom of religion is a basic right.

The general public is generally afraid of young black men with lots of bling and young white men with shaved heads and tattoos. (This is backed up by several studies.) So do we start banning them from flights, too? None of them has recently tried to blow up a plane, true, but many men of this demographic do violence every day.

If we continue to spiral into demonizing all things Islam, we will push many more Muslims into the camp where they believe Islam is under attack by the West and become soldiers against us.

Actually there is no 'freedom of religion'. The actual bill states that the government can "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Notice there is no provision in there that everybody in the US has to respect your religion.

And how is the prohibition of free exercise of religion not "freedom of religion?" And what does respect for a religion have to do with this?

Actually not demonizing all things Islam is political correctness run amuck. How can it be established that Islam is afforded a protected status from ridicule or questioning? Is it the violence? Should the US not have attacked the Japanese Navy (almost Goodwin'd the whole thread!) because it may have made the Japanese 'on the fence' decide we really were evil?

If I started a religion that stated that everyone that followed it were a special people who lived by special rules and everyone else had to acquiese to those rules or we'd kill them would you support my right to that religion?

I would not support the killing, so this is a pretty specious argument. We, as in Westerners, have fought more wars over the last 500 years against other Christians, the predominant religion in the West. So should we treat other Christians the same? And your argument on the Japanese Navy is frankly ludicrous. The Japanese Navy attacked the US. So it was a target. A better example would be how we treated the Japanese Americans after that attack. If you believe their internment and confiscation of their property was right, then maybe you can argue that treating Muslims who are not breaking any laws like this is also right.

I detest the radical Islamists who use Islam as an excuse for their actions, and I don't like the Salafists' doctrine. But that is a long way from treating all Muslims like criminals.

Whether it's fair or not, there is not total freedom of religion. I can not claim to worship Ba'al or Queztzalcoatl and demand the ability to sacrifice my children or you (respectively). The respect part of my post comes from the wholey unreasonable demands that Muslims put on non-Muslims. If you pay attention EVERY single time they take offense at something it is without fail due to the fact that their feelings were hurt, they were insulted, or some other such tripe. Notice each and every one of those are respect issues.

I am sorry you can not see the fact that allowing one religious group to continue their stealth advance at undermining EVERYBODY else's freedom is not a restriction on their rights.

Your explicit non-support of 'the killing' does not change facts; there have been no Muslims reaching out to the broad Muslim community to refute the supposed twisting of their religion even since 9-11. Wishful thinking and swallowing of smooth lies does not change the fact that the religion is inherently violent. Concerning your argument about Christians fighting Christians; the difference is that extremely few of those instances were even closely identified with religious reasons and most, if not all, of those religious reasons were condemned afterwards. Having said that, if there is a Christian sect that informs the world they will use violence against everyone else, than yes, for the greater good of the world (whether they be Christians, Muslims, Jainists, Hindus, Buddhists, Pastafarians, etc), they should be treated differently.

There are quite a few similarities between the Japanese and Muslims. Both follow(ed) a religion to treat one man as a god (hence the charge of blasphemy leveled against those who criticise Mohammed) and urged violence against others up to and including suicide.

Whether it is wanted to be admitted or not ISLAM did ATTACK the WEST. Numerous times. Relentlessly. So anybody who can not prove their lack of commitment to the destruction of liberties that the West enjoys need to be viewed with suspcious eyes. You differentiate between wolves and dogs right? What if there were only Siberian huskies out there? How could you be 100% sure that the lupus you wanted to pet wouldn't take your hand off your arm?

I will concede that the Japanese living in America were treated horribly. However we as a nation learned from that and if the apologists think the country is even close to coming back to that they need to lay off the Kool-aid. HOWEVER, it is not wrong to observe a group of people and treat them based on history. You wouldn't support allowing convicted violent felons access to guns would you? Would that mean that there aren't some that did reform and are perhaps ready for re-integration? More likely than not. However, if you push that through and one ends up bullshitting the system are you willing to accept responsibility for somebody else's death? Are you willing to pay compensation for those who lose lost ones when the Muslims carry out another attack that we are not prepared for since we can't profile people? Another question; if an army invades the country you are living in, are you going to differentiate between those who may have willfully participated in the invasion and killing of your countrymen and those who are there simply because they were drafted? Would you put your neck on the line by treating them as non-bad people until they actually killed someone in front of your eyes?

It's also sad that you actually consider that it's only 'radicals' that use Islam to justify their deeds. If you have read up on Islam you will extremely quickly see that Mohammed is the perfect man that all Muslims are to emulate. How can you insist that Islam is inherently non-violent when the founder was extremely violent?

[Ulysses G.]

it was one event and was not one of thousands or tens of thousands of such attacks. It is erroneous to draw a conclusion based upon one act of that nature.

How many attempts to blow up planes in the US by muslims?

Much more relevant is how many attempts to blow up planes all over the planet by radical Muslims?

Edited May 9, 2011 by Ulysses G.

[balo]

It would be better if all muslims in America could dress properly and remove their beards.

Even for safety reasons not to cause panic among the passengers.

They have moved to a western country , they should try to live as a westerner and appreciate their freedom .

[JUDAS]

It would be better if all muslims in America could dress properly and remove their beards.

Even for safety reasons not to cause panic among the passengers.

They have moved to a western country , they should try to live as a westerner and appreciate their freedom .

Beards strike terror into the hearts of Americans?

[FOODLOVER]

Well done Mr Pilot for standing up for what YOU believe in (fear of being blown up) .. after all isn't that what Muslims around the world have been doing lately i.e. standing up (or is it blowing up) for what THEY believe in.

Flame away...but for every one of you that does I'll bet there are 100 who agree with me...

Nice to hear a rational thought! I agree!

[Jingthing]

I fully support civil rights for Muslims but I also support intelligent screening of airline passengers. The trouble is the American methods aren't intelligent when compared to the Israeli methods.

[Steely Dan]

it was one event and was not one of thousands or tens of thousands of such attacks. It is erroneous to draw a conclusion based upon one act of that nature.

How many attempts to blow up planes in the US by muslims?

Much more relevant is how many attempts to blow up planes all over the planet by radical Muslims?

Exactly, he is using the same specious argument frequently used when asking how many people were killed by Hamas rocket attacks. Unless a plane explodes in mid air there is nothing to see and hence no problem.

[dave_boo]

It would be better if all muslims in America could dress properly and remove their beards.

Even for safety reasons not to cause panic among the passengers.

They have moved to a western country , they should try to live as a westerner and appreciate their freedom .

Beards strike terror into the hearts of Americans?

It's the murderous intent of those who use the beards to symbolise their supremacist faith that causes concern.

[Wallaby]

it was one event and was not one of thousands or tens of thousands of such attacks. It is erroneous to draw a conclusion based upon one act of that nature.

How many attempts to blow up planes in the US by muslims?

Much more relevant is how many attempts to blow up planes all over the planet by radical Muslims?

Exactly, he is using the same specious argument frequently used when asking how many people were killed by Hamas rocket attacks. Unless a plane explodes in mid air there is nothing to see and hence no problem.

Not relevent to the topic is it.

This is about a US pilot flying in the US.

[dave_boo]

Not relevent to the topic is it.

This is about a US pilot flying in the US.

So you ignore all threats unless they happen to you?

If you saw a cannibal creeping around your bushes, would you comfort yourself with the fact that cannibals only eat people in Africa?

[Steely Dan]

It's also sad that you actually consider that it's only 'radicals' that use Islam to justify their deeds. If you have read up on Islam you will extremely quickly see that Mohammed is the perfect man that all Muslims are to emulate. How can you insist that Islam is inherently non-violent when the founder was extremely violent?

One of the problems is that the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God, so to question anything written in it is blasphemy. Of course there is moderate thought within Islam. I read recently of one regular member of a UK mosque who gave a speech considering how Darwin's theories could be compatable with Islam. Naturally he received death threats and had to admit his 'mistake'. Those who threatened him were infact being true Muslims and submitting to the 7th century timewarp their Quran demands of them. Just because the truth is uncomfortable does not mean it should be sugar coated or hidden behind a cloak of silence.

[transam]

Not relevent to the topic is it.

This is about a US pilot flying in the US.

So you ignore all threats unless they happen to you?

If you saw a cannibal creeping around your bushes, would you comfort yourself with the fact that cannibals only eat people in Africa?

+1,

[Wallaby]

Not relevent to the topic is it.

This is about a US pilot flying in the US.

So you ignore all threats unless they happen to you?

If you saw a cannibal creeping around your bushes, would you comfort yourself with the fact that cannibals only eat people in Africa?

I'm sure if the cannibal had a beard you'd be more then jittery.

[transam]

It's also sad that you actually consider that it's only 'radicals' that use Islam to justify their deeds. If you have read up on Islam you will extremely quickly see that Mohammed is the perfect man that all Muslims are to emulate. How can you insist that Islam is inherently non-violent when the founder was extremely violent?

One of the problems is that the Quran is supposed to be the literal word of God, so to question anything written in it is blasphemy. Of course there is moderate thought within Islam. I read recently of one regular member of a UK mosque who gave a speech considering how Darwin's theories could be compatable with Islam. Naturally he received death threats and had to admit his 'mistake'. Those who threatened him were infact being true Muslims and submitting to the 7th century timewarp their Quran demands of them. Just because the truth is uncomfortable does not mean it should be sugar coated or hidden behind a cloak of silence.

Any book, what ever it is called for any religion is written by a bloke or blokes. There is no proof what so ever that a religious book has come from any where but earth written by anyone other than an earth bloke.

[Wallaby]

I don't think there is anything wrong in proflling people for 'special' security screening. I think that is only natural and I'm happy for it to happen. However, what I don't think is right is that they were screened and then the pilot had them re screened then took off without them.

That is not good form.

[JUDAS]

It would be better if all muslims in America could dress properly and remove their beards.

Even for safety reasons not to cause panic among the passengers.

They have moved to a western country , they should try to live as a westerner and appreciate their freedom .

Beards strike terror into the hearts of Americans?

It's the murderous intent of those who use the beards to symbolise their supremacist faith that causes concern.

My one line comment was an attempt to make a point which I’ll expand on here.

I remember in my youth and early adulthood looking to America with a sense of admiration and envy for its openness, sense of fair play, free speech, welcome to those of other nationalities living under oppressive regimes etc. The list goes on and on.

Post 9/11 I see, rightly or wrongly a nation that has and still is going through a great change. That change is being driven by fear and hatred of terrorist, which is totally understandable and sadly, Muslims as a whole seem to be viewed as a threat along with the terrorists. This change in mindset of some Americans concerns me as I see it a actually playing into the hands of al queda and their ilk. Treat a man like a dog often and long enough and don’t be surprised if he turns around and bits you.

Al queda and it’s supporters must be rubbing their hands with glee at the anti Muslim sentiments being expressed. After all, their ultimate goal is top get enough Muslims to feel disenchanted with their lot that they pick up the armalite and join the ‘holy war’ We westerners who whip up anti Muslim sentiment are of great assistance to those we actually despise.

In closing, I would say to Americans, don’t let the terrorists b@starts grind you down, don’t allow then to change the dreams and aspirations your nation was founded on, don’t allow them to turn you into haters.

P.s. I’m sure I could’ve made my point more eloquently but I hope my sentiment is at least clear.

[transam]

I don't think there is anything wrong in proflling people for 'special' security screening. I think that is only natural and I'm happy for it to happen. However, what I don't think is right is that they were screened and then the pilot had them re screened then took off without them.

That is not good form.

Perhaps he wanted the X ray thing just to be sure eh. Better safe than sorry. How many passengers have carried drugs in their abdomen, perhaps the next stage for a guy that wants to be with his 40 ladies.

[dave_boo]

Not relevent to the topic is it.

This is about a US pilot flying in the US.

So you ignore all threats unless they happen to you

If you saw a cannibal creeping around your bushes, would you comfort yourself with the fact that cannibals only eat people in Africa?

I'm sure if the cannibal had a beard you'd be more then jittery.

Actually it's not the beard that concerns well adjust thinking people but rather the idealogy behind it. Sorry you can't understand, but let me spell it out for you. I have kin that are Amish. Actually stayed with some of them in Hamilton county Ohio for a month. The men have beards similar to what the Taliban have (grow out the beard and shave the mustache). Do they worry me? Hell no; followers of their faith aren't going around mutilating young girls, killing their female siblings after they were raped (protect the family honour since it's only rape if witnessed by several people--a woman's word isn't worth as much as a man's BTW), really restricting the rights of others, killing people over cartoons, glorifying mass murders, etc....

**edit**

Grammar...screw speeling.

Edited May 9, 2011 by dave_boo

[Wallaby]

Actually it's not the beard that concerns well adjust thinking people but rather the idealogy behind it. Sorry you can't understand, but let me spell it out for you. I have kin that are Amish. Actually stayed with some of them in Hamilton county Ohio for a month. The men have beards similar to what the Taliban have (grow out the beard and shave the mustache). Do they worry me? Hell no; followers of their faith aren't going around mutilating young girls, killing their female siblings after they were raped (protect the family honour since it's only rape if witnessed by several people--a woman's word isn't worth as much as a man's BTW), really restricting the rights of others, killing people over cartoons, glorifying mass murders, etc....

**edit**

Grammar...screw speeling.

I understand what you are saying. I too look a couple of times at people I consider could be terrorists. Though I think the pilot could just as easily told those passengers concerned that the men they had concerns with had already been through security and if the concerned passengers wanted to take another flight they could.

As Transam said, perhaps they were sent for the xrays. We have just had those things brought in to oz, I don't think everyone goes through them, not sure, but I'm happy for it

PS: Don't worry about spelling.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Wallaby

[dave_boo]

My one line comment was an attempt to make a point which I'll expand on here.

I remember in my youth and early adulthood looking to America with a sense of admiration and envy for its openness, sense of fair play, free speech, welcome to those of other nationalities living under oppressive regimes etc. The list goes on and on.

Post 9/11 I see, rightly or wrongly a nation that has and still is going through a great change. That change is being driven by fear and hatred of terrorist, which is totally understandable and sadly, Muslims as a whole seem to be viewed as a threat along with the terrorists. This change in mindset of some Americans concerns me as I see it a actually playing into the hands of al queda and their ilk. Treat a man like a dog often and long enough and don't be surprised if he turns around and bits you.

Al queda and it's supporters must be rubbing their hands with glee at the anti Muslim sentiments being expressed. After all, their ultimate goal is top get enough Muslims to feel disenchanted with their lot that they pick up the armalite and join the 'holy war' We westerners who whip up anti Muslim sentiment are of great assistance to those we actually despise.

In closing, I would say to Americans, don't let the terrorists b@starts grind you down, don't allow then to change the dreams and aspirations your nation was founded on, don't allow them to turn you into haters.

P.s. I'm sure I could've made my point more eloquently but I hope my sentiment is at least clear.

I'd be inclined to consider your point of view; if history hadn't already proved that line of thinking is naieve. At any point in time when the Muslim population was strong enough they attempted to overwhelm the existant cultural values and mores. This was more often than not done through violence (once again; look how many times Mohammed was able to eloquently convert people versus how many he wiped out until the remainder converted).

You can not seperate the wheat from the chaff in this instance. How can one know which Muslim actually follows the Quaran and which just professes to and wants to live as a productive member of the Earth? Sure they could tell you, but referring back to experience past, how do you know they're not lying? It has been long documented that not only Al-Jazeera, but Islamic governments, state one thing in English and a totally contradictory thing, which is inline with Islamic teachings, in Arabic. How can you trust these sorts?

It would be similar to asking a Latin American country to trust the CIA...look what good it did for other countries!

I don't see it as a fact that it's fear or hatred; merely prove to the US that you are actually an upright standing citizen who has something to contribute rather than attempt to use the Constitution as toliet tissue. Do you realise that there's some 1/10 (if that much!) of the attacks on Muslims as there are on Jews in the US? My understanding is that in Europe, especially in the Muslim ghettos that have popped up, the numbers are MUCH worst. And yet you don't hear about rabbis having to go through secondary screening...why is that? We don't hear about "Well don't anger zee joos because they might take up suicide bombing". What is the reason Muslims treated with such deference? Why the attitude they are children and not responsible for their own actions? How can we antagonise them towards violence?

[Steely Dan]

What is the reason Muslims treated with such deference? Why the attitude they are children and not responsible for their own actions? How can we antagonise them towards violence?

How indeed?

[Pakboong]

He who would sacrifice freedom for security, will wake up one day with neither.

Paraphrasing: Ben Franklin

[kuffki]

He who would sacrifice freedom for security, will wake up one day with neither.

Paraphrasing: Ben Franklin

He who would not, will not wake up at all.

Paraphrasing : Kuffki