Bedbug Toxin 'Likely' Cause Of Sarah Carter's Death

[AleG]

For god's sake, this is the tropics. Sunning the infested furniture and beddings will get rid of those bedbugs. Why the need for chemicals?

Thai's don't like to air their dirty laundry...

[Todde]

So very sad. My condolences to all that were, are still being affected by this tragedy.

Biggest tragedy is the Thai culture is now better known across the world as an uncaring irresponsible society.

I'm certain that everyone's sentiment is fully and properly placed with the grieving families in these incidences.

Certainly no one could feel that the Biggest tragedy here is actually the gleaning of a truth about Thai culture.

I think this thread supports enough accurate commentary on that subject for me not to add to these facts.

I do however think the actual best thing to happen in Thailand is a constant exposure of gross injustices and blatant hypocrisies.

No one could suggest that such unfavorable cultural behavior does not happen else where.

But it could be argued that transparency and accountability are our primary tools to at least influence more just societal behavior.

For all the good qualities with in Thailand sadly these two qualities are not on the list.

[khaowong1]

It's amazing that Thai people claim to know everything about everything. And don't know squat. This sure makes you think twice about staying in ANY hotel.

[Johpa]

It also raises broader questions about the use of this chemical in the broader hotel industry in Thailand.

Why limit your concerns to the hotel industry. You should perhaps be far more concerned by the inappropriate use of chemicals in the food industry, especially the vegetables which are found to be so tasty by so many indigenous species that in order to get them in one palatable piece to a humanoid table requires massive amounts of biocides, both the insecticide and herbicide varieties. And the people spraying tend to be folks with little education and certainly people incapable of reading any warning labels in English, although these days the labels are often in Thai. And then of course one can always witness these same folks rinsing out their sprayers in the local streams. We only notice these deaths because they are sudden and happened to some young white folks. We pay no heed to the premature deaths of the masses of the population due to the inappropriate use of chemicals as Dow, and others producers, has no financial interest in seeing that such chemicals are used in an appropriate manner.

[dunkin2012]

60 Minutes New Zealand Video here

what was the guy in blue shirt with a face mask doing with the white bucket? any ideas?

the governor said "certain rules to follow". humm.... Don't like this guy. the way he talks it's not really open and confident.

Thai Dr. couldn't name the chemicals used in the hotel.------ Bad bad...

the way she died and the symptom .

perfectly!!!!!

[teko]

It is unfortunate that people die suddenly as a result of gross negligence and greed committed by others, and those at fault should pay the price for their actions. But the more unfortunate fact is that everyone living in Thailand is currently a dead man walking. This country is killing itself with its pollution - leaded gas and paint; asbestos; chemical dumping; pesticides, fertilizers and herbicides leaching into the waterways; decimation of forests creating mudslides and erosion; and incredibly short-sighted farming practices that leave the land fallow after a decade of rape. Not all of it can be laid at the feet of ignorance, although it is a factor. We can blame the lack of education, or the lack of understanding in the common person as to cause and effect, but the truth is that much of Thai society is just trying to survive from day-to-day, and survival mode hardly facilitates change.

The Thai bureaucracy is, by any standard, one of the most byzantine in the modern world, and helps foment this survival mode mentality. The incredible corruption, at all levels of government, strips away any incentive that the individual might have to create a vehicle for change. It burdens growth, kills creation and stifles their economy. And yet, this country remains a Land Of Smiles. Its people, on the whole still embrace and share "jai dee" - and is one of the main reasons we farangs continue to live here. We (read ex-pats) continually complain about the lack of positive change, the lack of a critical and effective legislative branch, and the deficiency of basic rights ensuring equality for all citizens, including foreign guests, but we also stay and enjoy our special status. Perhaps we need to embrace a sense of compassion in our perspective, and stop deriding and denigrating the Thai people because they are acting like "Thais", and not acting like Americans, Europeans, Australians or even Japanese or Koreans.

This country is a Buddhist country, but it is forgetting, and or modifying the teachings of the Buddha so as to suit its needs. One can hardly blame them, and it is not the first, nor will it be the last to do so. All religious doctrine evolves to suit the needs of its populace. It is just unfortunate that we, again meaning 1st world countries, continue to export ideology that is based upon the preeminence of materialism as the answer to our basic human needs. We create the false image that our way not only is the "best" way, but also the "only" way to elevate the human condition. Please don't get me wrong, I am a capitalist at heart, and have the economic battle scars to prove it, but as the Buddha said "we create our suffering", and at the moment I feel as if we farangs have helped to create some of the common Thai person's suffering. Yes, we can, and should, become outraged at the deaths of farangs like Sarah, but let us not stop there. We should be outraged at the philosophical as well as physical deaths of the Thai people as well. As my grandfather used to say to me, "Screaming at the grass won't make it grow any faster". Let's stop screaming at things we can't change, and focus on those we can. If you want to complain, then while so doing, please also make the commitment to implement a strategy that might help facilitate change beneficial to your Thai brother and sister.

Thanks so much for the first paragraph as you have beaten me to the punch.

They are spraying certain pesticides in this country that have been outlawed in civilized countries for decades due to their carcinogenic properties. Don't want to alarm us all that much, but we are ingesting these everyday by simply breathing and eating.You can't wash these of the leaf,the carcass etc, they are ingested by the plant or the animal,we eat the plant or animal and you know the rest.

So sad that people are dying everyday, some not so sudden as poor Sarah, due to the negligence of government and a peoples mai pen yai attitude.

[hhfarang]

This doesn't explain the death of my Canadian friend during the same time period who only swam in that hotel's pool and then died of the very same heart symptoms the next day. He got a coupon from the hotel he was staying in that did not have a pool that allowed him to use the pool at the suspect hotel nearby. He swam there once and died one day later with the same symptoms of all the others.

Did they spray the pool with the bedbug chemical... I think there are still more unanswered questions here.

[rodcourt49]

Chlorpyrifos (WIKIPEDIA)

Health effects

Chlorpyrifos is an organophosphate, with potential for both acute toxicity at larger amounts and neurological effects in fetuses and children even at very small amounts.

For acute effects, the EPA classifies chlorpyrifos as Class II: moderately toxic. Recent research indicates that children exposed to chlorpyrifos while in the womb have an increased risk of delays in mental and motor development at age 3 and an increased occurrence of pervasive developmental disorders such as ADHD.[13] An earlier study demonstrated a correlation between prenatal chlorpyrifos exposure and lower weight and smaller head circumference at birth.[14]

A 2010 study found that each 10-fold increase in urinary concentration of organophosphate metabolites was associated with a 55% to 72% increase in the odds of ADHD in children.[15]

Studies have shown evidence of "deficits in Working Memory Index and Full-Scale IQ as a function of prenatal CPF exposure [as measured when the children reach] 7 years of age."[16]

Effects on marine life and bees

Chlorpyrifos is highly toxic to amphibians, and a recent study by the United States Geological Survey found that its main breakdown product in the environment, chlorpyrifos oxon, is even more toxic to these animals.[17]

The substance is very toxic for aquaculture (fish) and bees

Source: Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chlorpyrifos

...IMO...I think the 'Chlorpyrifos bed-bug spray' has been sprayed directly into the air-conditioning system as a cheap method of spraying all rooms prio to start of High Season...this would account for the spasmodic yet widespread effect to other patrons..particularly their MO of death. Should each of their toxicology reports return similar levels on their Toxicology Analyses; then a parallel can be drawn. Of course the results are being kept confidential and on a need to know basis, hence the results of an independent analysis it seems instigated by the 60 Minutes programme has at least brought this to public attention. What is needed now is the Thai Health Minister and Forensic Science Deputy Director Dr. Porntip take over the matter and fully investigate it.

Edited May 8, 2011 by rodcourt49

[tigermonkey]

In the Downtown Inn, each room has its own separate air conditioning unit. Spraying directly into the unit is not " a cheap method of spraying all rooms prio to start of High Season" .

[Boater]

this just makes thailand look so bad ! ,

Reporter - so why do you not shut down the hotel

GM Governer - because we have laws

<deleted>?

also the comment about the two americans dying and thailand ' losing ' the evidence justs sums up a cover up

[jonclark]

I'm just waiting for the excuse that its only because the farangs are so dirty, that the hotel has to use such strong chemicals. Anyone remember the excuse SRT gave when they changed / cleaned the beds on the CM sleeper a few years ago?

[tigermonkey]

This doesn't explain the death of my Canadian friend during the same time period who only swam in that hotel's pool and then died of the very same heart symptoms the next day. He got a coupon from the hotel he was staying in that did not have a pool that allowed him to use the pool at the suspect hotel nearby. He swam there once and died one day later with the same symptoms of all the others.

Did they spray the pool with the bedbug chemical... I think there are still more unanswered questions here.

I think that you are right . The '60 Minutes' theory of the cause of death is just that -- a theory. Although it is a more credible theory than "coincidence", there is really almost no hard evidence that Sarah's death was caused by the bed bug spray.

I am also more than a little suspicious of the motives and therefore the conclusions of '60 Minutes'. Were they out ot make a story at any cost ? I quote from another article "Before leaving for Chiang Mai, 'Sixty Minutes' spoke to a New Zealand scientist who suspected insecticide poisoning. " ( Emphasis is mine.) . In other words, they arrived in Chaing Mai looking for insecticide poisoning.. They found background levels of insecticide and made a story of it. Entire article is at http://bedbugville.wordpress.com/

Edited May 8, 2011 by tigermonkey

[pacovl46]

It was still inexcusable the hotel remained open after continuing deaths. Cheapo owners excuse to control poor house cleaning issues. And of course there will be no prosecution other than possibly the exterminators being taken down as the hotel owner is related to people 'in uniform'.

i totally second that!!! they should've closed the shack down!!!

[Beetlejuice]

So it`s all down to the naivety of the hotel management and their staff, bless their little hearts.

Ah well, at least we know what caused the tragic deaths of these unfortunate people, even if it took an independent foreign expert to spill the beans.

So let it be businesss as usual at the good ole Downtown inn. Just launder the bedding and forget all about it.

[jsflynn603]

It was still inexcusable the hotel remained open after continuing deaths. Cheapo owners excuse to control poor house cleaning issues. And of course there will be no prosecution other than possibly the exterminators being taken down as the hotel owner is related to people 'in uniform'.

Sanitary conditions aka "poor housekeeping" has absolutely nothing to do with bedbugs. Roaches, yes--poor cleaning allows a rapid build-up of roach population, but bedbugs no.

All it takes is one single gravid (pregnant) bedbug, actually it takes less than that because the bedbug "glues" eggs and can glue a few on the bottom of a piece of luggage later to hatch in your home. Even if you keep your home immaculate, you will develop an infestation if a few hatch.

Bedbugs eat only one thing--humans. So unless you keep humans out of an area an infestation is always possible.

Consider the ongoing and untold stories of bedbug infestations in airplanes, trains and cruise ships, yes airplanes, and I suspect with increasing frequency are becoming infested. Think of it. One gravid bedbug walks off a piece of a traveler's luggage, lays her eggs in the crevices of the seating. A few weeks later you have a few bedbugs. The bedbugs are happy, for on many airplanes the lights go down and people sleep--yummy. Since many people do not react to bedbug bites, and never notice them, and many who react to them notice them weeks later--nobody ever considers the airplane.

There is NO pesticide capable of killing them because they sense it and go into hiding between walls and can go months without coming back out. Unless one uses a gas (or rips the walls and ceilings out, a pesticide applicator never reaches them all, with one possible exception DDVP (Vapona) yet even there I don't think it would work.

You can freeze them and heat them to death--that is all. Here is a sad story of victims of a property owner, who was a victim of a traveler, who was victim of another place...and so on. (Plus they were victims of a pesticide applicator who was illiterate in his trade, or just plain stupid, plus possible lack of Thailand's government having adequate rules for licensing and training requirements). In America the applicator would be charged with Manslaughter. The owner was probably besides himself trying to get rid of them and so someone fell into the "more is better" trap. I hate to say it, but almost certainly, there are still live bedbugs in that lodging, hiding within the walls willing to wait weeks or months to return to feed.

In America there are large semi's (moving trucks) designed to take all the belongings in the house, the TV, clothing, stuffed toys, mattresses, etc and heat them to, I believe 126 Fahrenheit for a number of hours. Then the inside of the house is heated with dry steam, or if it's winter, water is drained from all plumbing and the heat is shut off for the requisite time to pass. Zero degree Fahrenheit for one or two days is sufficient to kill all stages of bedbugs.

Suggestions: When traveling research how to identify bedbug infestations. Enter a hotel room, and place your bags in the center of a hard floor with no cracks (bathroom floors that are tiled are perfect because bedbugs don't go there--because people don't sleep there. It's not difficult to be able to identify bedbug fecal smears (digested human blood) in the edging of mattresses, or hiding spots. If found--take bags and leave, plain and simple. If you are stuck there for the night keep your bags high along with clothing. Bedbugs transfer no disease so the bites are harmless unless you have an allergic response. But in this scenario you could consider yourself "possibly contaminated" because the eggs are too small to find.

At this stage you may become the vector for distribution of bedbug/eggs and there is nothing that you can do short of finding a freezer and sticking all your stuff in it for one or two days (wrap camera/laptop in plastic and do not re-open until the entire device reaches room temperature because internal condensation can destroy the device) If possible wash clothing in water at 126 Fahrenheit or hotter (which is becoming hard to find as we go "greener" (many washers now limit water temp to 98 degrees)).

Never (if possible) place a bag/knapsack/jacket underneath the seat of a night traveling plane or train. If you must, consider yourself possibly contaminated--always use overhead bins. Yes, upon my return from Asia my carry on luggage was wrapped in a plastic bag, and frozen for two days along with my shoes. I washed all my clothes and took them to a nearby laundromat and dried them, running the dryer 30 minutes past dry.

I live in fear of these buggers because I own an apartment house and because infestations are increasing wold-wide. I need only one tenant and one gravid female to become infested. I've estimated that eradication will cost me about $20,000 for my triplex.

A side note: True story: An Emergency Department received a person barely conscious, convulsing, with diarrhea and a set of strange symptoms. Shortly after the patient was being treated, one then another of the medical personnel became violently ill. One died, several were severely ill but recovered. The cause: The patient committed suicide by ingesting an organophosphate pesticide. Either the persons breath, or belching created a poison nerve gas. Sarin, the war gas that was used some years ago in Tokyo's subway is a gas organophosphate.

[balo]

So maybe this is also the cause of the mysterious deaths of the Norwegian and American tourist in the Phi Phi guest house ?

Someone should look into that.

[Familyonthemove]

Anybody know the trade name of some sprays containing chlorpyrifos?

It's made by Dow Chemicals (of Bhopal fame) .... here's an interesting site that lists the manufacturers: My link

Edited May 8, 2011 by Familyonthemove

[rotary]

Wow shocking

[CHANGOVER]

I wonder if this is the same stuff we get sprayed with to stop mossies and termites in our houses?

Ed ; sp

Edited May 8, 2011 by CHANGOVER

[geriatrickid]

Please keep in mind that no direct link has been established between the pesticide and the fatality. Please note as follows;

- The pesticide was not identified in the deceased's body.

-The pesticide was found in the room. It could have been applied subsequent to the cleaning, or it may indeed have been present in the room The moving of furniture and the washing of objects may have released pesticide residues that had caked, thereby increasing the ambient discoverability. An example of this is vacuming, where the dust levels in a room will actually increase as the area is disturbed by the vacuming.

- Although the pesticide is indeed toxic, the residue on its own would have been insufficient to kill a healthy adult.

I do however, believe that pesticide residue on food consumed and in the room may have been a contributing factor by suppressing the deceased's immune system allowing an opportunistic infection to move quickly.

Edited May 8, 2011 by geriatrickid

[CHANGOVER]

Definitely sounding more credible than the last time i read your wildly innacurate assessment of the death of the Lao girl cut in half by a young Thai hi-so driver.

[elektrified]

So maybe this is also the cause of the mysterious deaths of the Norwegian and American tourist in the Phi Phi guest house ?

Someone should look into that.

That has already been concluded.

[elektrified]

The one thing that still does not make sense is the two people whose deaths were associated with the hotel but that did not stay as guests in any of the rooms. There was the Canadian? man who swam and ate lunch there and I believe a woman that was a separate incident as well. I don't understand how they were exposed to the insecticide.

[jfchandler]

Anyone interested in this should read the written article on the 60 Minutes web site...not just watch the video...

http://www.3news.co....65/Default.aspx

It does appear the evidence is circumstantial, since the experts say the residues of this chemical in the human body dissipate rapidly.... However, it certainly seems more likely than the Thai explanation of "coincidence."

Excerpts from the article:

60 Minutes travelled to Chiang Mai and took samples from the bedroom Sarah stayed in at the Downtown Inn, while posing as a hotel guest interested in renting a room.

When she got there the entire fifth floor, the floor where Sarah and her friends stayed, was being pulled apart and cleaned.

It is understood health authorities were due to visit the hotel the next day.

First I've heard of anything about this...

Thai police were also thinking along the same lines and according to an inspector in the local force had raided the company in charge of eradicating insects at the hotel.

We managed to glean from an inspector, the police had raided the company in charge of eradicating insects at the hotel.

Chiang Mai's Head of Public Health Dr Surasing was also investigating this theory.

"I'm not the specialist," he said. "But it's possible that they mixed together the wrong chemicals."

But Dr Surasing was not able to mention the chemicals that were used in the hotel or the company contracted to use them.

And then the Phi Phi deaths angle. Don't recall hearing before about "lost" samples:

The idea that some Thai hotels could be using unsafe chemicals first came to light two years ago when American Jill St Onge and Norwegian Julie Bergheim died at a Thai resort after they began violently vomiting.

American investigators suspected chemical poisoning but the Thai authorities lost all the samples.

Edited May 8, 2011 by jfchandler

[fxe1200]

For god's sake, this is the tropics. Sunning the infested furniture and beddings will get rid of those bedbugs. Why the need for chemicals?

Actually there is no need to use any chemicals on mattresses and so on. After a bed sheet is being used, it has to be washed with a minimum of 60 degrees C, which will also kill flea eggs, and not with lukewarm water.

Exposed to the sun, matresses reach temperatures way over 55 degrees C, which is the temperature where the bedworms and their eggs will be killed.

Again, it is the "mai pen rai" attitude, the lack of knowledge, and lazyness of the Thais to attack a problem in an appropriate way. The sprays are probably more expensive, than the manpower to expose a mattress into the sun and turn it around after one hour.

And if you dare, to make suggestion, it is like talking to walls.

[anon467367354]

I don't think Thai bureaucracy had anything to do with this death. Thailand has a "more is better" thought process. the louder the better, the more sugar the better, the more pesticide the better, the more antibiotics the better, the more money the better, the more white skin the better, the bigger the eye the better etc etc etc! The damage that comes from this train of thought must be staggering,(no pun intended) from hearing loss to brain function loss to normal chromosomal activity. As it stands, it's like children playing with fire. There doesn't seem to be any concept of limitation or maybe i don't need to add any more. Throw in some extra MSG just to be sure. Until the people mature, develop into a responsible "there are consequences for your actions" mentality, Thailand is always going to be a dangerous place to be and will be looked at in that very light by the rest of the developed world. Just spraying the crap out of something for good measure needs to be replaced with following the directions and trusting that the people that developed this stuff knew what they were doing. Cholinesterase is what makes muscles contract. acetacholinesterase makes them relax, so I'm guess a cholinesterase inhibitor must stop all muscle activity thus causing death. good night.

[TinoThailand]

It's like your living in the 70's or 80's. Stuff we don't use anymore because it's dangerous they still use here. Also on fresh vegetables and fruits many farms spray dangerous stuff that we ( in the netherlands) don't use for long time anymore already...

[pisico]

For a country so concerned about face, they are just about to lose a massive amount of it. That is the ultimate nightmare for Thai tourism, for this to be broadcast on 60 Minutes. This incident is Thailand at it's worst. Cover things up, and wait for it to go away. This in not mai pen rai, this is bordering on criminal stupidity. For deaths to keep occurring, do nothing, and then have government officials make statements that this is all coincidental is an insult to the intelligence. They had a chance to clean house themselves with the first death and they did not. Now time for broken face........

What not to expect from this experience:

1-Formulating safety standards for hotels to be licensed regarding their cleanliness and pest control.

2- Regular inspections to ensure compliance and enforcement of those standards.

3- Severe penalties including closure of the establishment until compliance is achieved in addition to steep fines.

4- A special investigation into the causes of the so called "coincidental deaths" at the Down town Inn hotel. etc.

Expect a typical Thai solution to such a problem: free tourist visas for one more year.

That ought to wipe out the specter of so many coincidental deaths at the same hotel.

"Tourists will continue coming to Thailand because we are so unique in the world that a few Farang deaths will not change anything".

That seems to be how those running TAT reflect on this matter. Mai bpen rai!

[elektrified]

It's like your living in the 70's or 80's. Stuff we don't use anymore because it's dangerous they still use here. Also on fresh vegetables and fruits many farms spray dangerous stuff that we ( in the netherlands) don't use for long time anymore already...

I have news for you. We use Dursban (the chemical they used in the rooms at the Downtown Inn) in our gardens in California.

[nikkoid66]

Lack of education: to kill bed bugs, put the mattress in the sun. They will die all very quick.

That's very simple in a tropical country there should not have any bed bugs because of that.

In Europe, they are almost impossible to kill except with heat, so in the winter: good luck!

>50 degree, they die. Use a hairdryer is more efficient than sprays.