Bedbug Toxin 'Likely' Cause Of Sarah Carter's Death

[ableguy]

... snip ... Whilst it would be extremely unlikely that one death would occur due to this substance especially with very short term exposure, the fact that there have been more deaths which have occured and that the deaths were fairly rapid does not fit the known toxicology effects of the Chemical Chloropyrifos. ... snip ... I am afraid that this is not a case solved, it is a case covered up. ... snip ...

Sawadee Khrup, Khun Estrada,

This is a very thoughtful critique of the current hypothesis of the cause of these multiple deaths: and that hypothesis could well be a "rush to judgement."

Hope you'll write a letter-to-the-editor of either the Bangkok Post or Nation conveying this analysis, and your reservations about the academic credentials of the investigator.

We live in Chiang Mai, and first thought came into our head, when we heard about the multiple fatalities all linked to that hotel, was the fact that the Anusarn Market seafood restaurant area is less than a hundred meters from that hotel, second thought was central air-con, but it has come out the rooms have individual air-con units, we believe.

thanks, ~o:37;

Oh great another conpiracy for me to worry about.

[ddavidovsky]

The moral is surely to not stay in any room with a strange, chemical-like smell.

Some information on exactly what Chlorpyrifos smells like would be useful, but I gather it is strong and unpleasant and lingers.

Edited May 9, 2011 by ddavidovsky

[tango]

^RE:'...the rooms have individual air-con units". That is no real comfort. The next time one stays at a hotel/guest house, out of curiosity open the air-con to view the filter; you will likely be taken aback at the multi-hued gunk festooned there. Now you have an idea as to why you awaken with a sore throat. Then wonder when was the last time the filters were properly cleaned and rid of germs on an air-con bus or train, and even those in your own house, school or office. Just a thought...

[atyclb]

I shared this with someone I know well that is an emergency department doctor. Some thoughts;

# symptoms consistent with gastroenteritis and/or organophosphate poisoniing.

# believe it or not diarrhea is estimated to be among the top 5 causes of death worldwide

# very unusual for a young healthy person to be so sick and not improve with treatment/supportive care ; fluids, antibiotics(if the thought is bacterial food poisoning)

# no doctor knows everything or is experienced in diagnosing and treating everything, nor remembers everything.

# seeking advice form applicable specialists is crucial eg; toxicologist NOT an organic chemist. Cardiologists are good at many things related to the heart and the ones that can help in heart attacks, coronary artery disease, diagnosing malformations and no doubt tried to help to keep blood pressure adequate but was futile.

# reading a book or nowadays going online is a tremendous asset.

# given the number of "coincidental illnesses" it is surprising that other treatments were not tried as there was not much to lose. (people were dying already)

# something known as "cross contamination" exists and you'd be amazed how many things can be other than the original target can be contaminated.

# there exists a wealth of literature on OP poisoning and treatments. treatments are relatively simple and not high tech medicine, though some of the lab tests for OP poisoning are exotic and may not be available in every hospital(even in developed countries)

# OP treatment would certainly be given in many cases even without laboratory tests to confirm.

The culture and way of thinking "is what it is" in Thailand. it is the reason all of the "desirable to expats" things exist. Again, many complain, even Thai people I know say despicable things about their own country/people/culture.

================================================================================================================================================

It is important to read the entire article, twice or more is suggested rather than focus on pieces that you like to use in an argumentative one sided manner/ jumping to conclusions

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/167726-overview

[Arkady]

Bedbugs are difficult to exterminate. They are tough little critters. At a minimum, rooms that have been sprayed need to be left unoccupied for several days and very well ventilated. They also need a thorough cleaning before being rented again.

Bedbugs can live in bedding, including the mattresses, which would probably need to be disposed of. Can you imagine sleeping with your face in a mattress full of a dangerous chemical?

The poor victims of this criminal negligence must have slept on mattresses and pillows that had been saturated with chlopyrifos which should only have been applied around the baseboards of the beds. Different people are more or less sensitive to the chemical. I suffered some mild side effects (intense headache, nausea, breathing difficulties) after sleeping in a room where the floors and walls had been sprayed with it to eliminate ticks. I might also have died or been seriously ill if the mattress and pillows had been sprayed. However, no one else in the house suffered any side effects at all after all the rooms had been similarly sprayed.

We were desperate to get rid of an infestation of dog ticks and got the Thai franchise of an Australian pest control company to spray the house. They refused to disclose the names of the chemicals used until after the job had been done and paid for. They also failed to ask if any small children or pregnant women lived in the house, even though they are known to be particularly sensitive to chlorpyrifos. It was very effective against the ticks but the house still smelled strongly of it a month later.

For bedbugs DDT, the most effective pesticide against them, is no longer an option. Chlopyrifos and other organophosphates are no longer used indoors in most Western countries which leaves only pyrethrins, the active ingredient of most household bug sprays. It is less effective than DDT and organophosphates and the bedbugs are building resistance to it - there is currently an epidemic of bedbugs in the US. Pyrethrins can also be harmful to people, especially small children, and there have been cases of children dying after washing dogs with tick and flea shampoo containing a pyrethrin.

Meanwhile the Downtown Inn in Chiang Mai still rates 3.5 stars on Tripadvisor and it is guaranteed that the local authorities will take no action against the hotel or its well connected owner.

[Ulysses G.]

The poor victims of this criminal negligence must have slept on mattresses and pillows that had been saturated with chlopyrifos which should only have been applied around the baseboards of the beds.

Is it possible that after that they went swimming which would explain the swimming pool victims?

[krading]

Seems a little odd to me that of the 300 or so hotels, 250 B&Bs and 100 other types of lodgings available for rent in Chiang Mai, only the Downtown Inn has had the problem of guests dying as a result of some mysterious illness.

Does the pest eradication company only have the one client?

Wouldn't surprise me if an over zealous hotel employee used the chemical straight from the bottle.

Why water it down, the stronger the better.

[Squigy]

Seems a little odd to me that of the 300 or so hotels, 250 B&Bs and 100 other types of lodgings available for rent in Chiang Mai, only the Downtown Inn has had the problem of guests dying as a result of some mysterious illness.

Does the pest eradication company only have the one client?

Wouldn't surprise me if an over zealous hotel employee used the chemical straight from the bottle.

Why water it down, the stronger the better.

UPDATE FROM PARENTS In New Zealand

The Thais are very good at sending off Western drug traffickers to the gallows, so this will be the test of how serious they are when it comes to looking at criminal negligence involving their own people and will really show the world whether there's one standard for everyone or whether there are two different standards - one for Westerners and one for their own people." Sarah Carter's mother, Anna Carter, said she hoped action would be taken so other tourists would not die.

From NZAP

[Thighlander]

Sorry to be out of the loop, but, is that the Downtown Inn by the MCD and the Night Bazaar? Or the other one, somewhere over near Arcade/McCormick?

My first time ever to CNX, I stayed at the one by the night Bazaar. Every third night free on www.asiatravel.com. I stayed 9 days, and it everything was cool. Sorry to hear about Sarah-RIP.

[Estrada]

... snip ... Whilst it would be extremely unlikely that one death would occur due to this substance especially with very short term exposure, the fact that there have been more deaths which have occured and that the deaths were fairly rapid does not fit the known toxicology effects of the Chemical Chloropyrifos. ... snip ... I am afraid that this is not a case solved, it is a case covered up. ... snip ...

Sawadee Khrup, Khun Estrada,

This is a very thoughtful critique of the current hypothesis of the cause of these multiple deaths: and that hypothesis could well be a "rush to judgement."

Hope you'll write a letter-to-the-editor of either the Bangkok Post or Nation conveying this analysis, and your reservations about the academic credentials of the investigator.

We live in Chiang Mai, and first thought came into our head, when we heard about the multiple fatalities all linked to that hotel, was the fact that the Anusarn Market seafood restaurant area is less than a hundred meters from that hotel, second thought was central air-con, but it has come out the rooms have individual air-con units, we believe.

thanks, ~o:37;

I commented on this to the Bangkok Post, I know the editor so I will take this up with him personally.

I was involved in the Staffordshire Hospital, Sheffield City Bus and the BBC Legionella outbreaks in the UK back in the '70s -'80s because I supplied water recycling plants for their vehicle washes. The Experts blamed my water recycling plants, but I carried out in depth research eventually contacting the Germ Warfare Estblishment at Porton Down UK. Working with Porton Down on the problem I was able to gain a lot of background on the legionella bacillii which I believe was possibly originally manufactured by them but escaped. I carried out on site investigations and after further discussions with Porton Down we found that the problem was in the air conditioning. In the case of Stafford hospital, the bacteria was being bred in aircon waste drain and sucked up and atomised in the hosiptal humidifiers. People are only affected by bacteria contained in atomised water droplets of very low micron size (5 Micron). The normal water spray cannot affect you, and then only in the case where the people have destroyed their lung's natural defences by smoking, and generally are over 56 years of age. Hence, the most famous case which gave rise to the name was at a Legionaires Conference, hence "Legionella".

Following my research Porton Down Experts formed a Private Consultancy Company for investigation and advice to Water Companies on Legionella in Water Systems, whilst at the time I was Consultant to the British Health Service, various oil companies and the Car Wash Association on Legionella in Car Washing and water recycling systems in general.

The Germ Warfare Establishment were famous for conducting experiments on enlisted British Soldiers with Sarin and various bacterium and molds with a view of using the compounds for incapacitating, paralysing or even killing enemy soldiers. In my view they would be able to establish the cause of death as they are the World's experts, having created a number of lethal bacterium which seem to have escaped into the environment.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Estrada

[balo]

Are mosquito sprays you buy at the supermarketts safe to use indoor? I always spray before I leave my apartment .

[Estrada]

# seeking advice from applicable specialists is crucial eg; toxicologist NOT an organic chemist. Cardiologists are good at many things related to the heart and the ones that can help in heart attacks, coronary artery disease, diagnosing malformations and no doubt tried to help to keep blood pressure adequate but was futile.

I said Organic Chemistry etc which is the basis of an MSc in "toxicological biochemistry" which I thought I was clearly refering to under "ETC". Humans are carbon based life forms therefore Organic Chemstry being the study of the Chemistry of carbon and life is the relevent basic discipline.

But from my own hands on experience, the Porton Down Germ Warfare Establishment are by far the real experts in this field.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Estrada

[Thai at Heart]

And we won't wonder why this stuff is still being used.

http://www.pan-europe.info/Resources/Links/Banned_in_the_EU.pdf

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/38539457/MAXIMUM-RESIDUE-LIMITS-FOR-PERMISSIBLE-CHEMICALS

And no one want to know how much cypermethrin is sprayed daily out in the countryside. The levels can be truly quite frightening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cypermethrin

[Roadman]

The persistence of the parents and the 60 Minutes airing of the possible cause of Sarah's death has paid off with the announcement here in Kiwiland tonite that WHO will conduct their own enquiry into the events.

[bangkokburning]

Seems a little odd to me that of the 300 or so hotels, 250 B&Bs and 100 other types of lodgings available for rent in Chiang Mai, only the Downtown Inn has had the problem of guests dying as a result of some mysterious illness.

I would agree here - seems like the mgt would put it together after the third death or so...

Who wants to bet the mattresses were sprayed, why toss them out - just farang and all....

Bet some guy went all crazy ass on the rooms. Mixed the poison at 300x the strength and then oversprayed the room into oblivion.

Good on the mom - GET'EM!

Edited May 9, 2011 by bangkokburning

[atyclb]

# seeking advice from applicable specialists is crucial eg; toxicologist NOT an organic chemist. Cardiologists are good at many things related to the heart and the ones that can help in heart attacks, coronary artery disease, diagnosing malformations and no doubt tried to help to keep blood pressure adequate but was futile.

I said Organic Chemistry etc which is the basis of an MSc in "toxicological biochemistry" which I thought I was clearly refering to under "ETC". Humans are carbon based life forms therefore Organic Chemistry being the study of the Chemistry of carbon and life is the relevent basic discipline.

But from my own hands on experience, the Porton Down Germ Warfare Establishment are by far the real experts in this field.

Please forgive me as I clearly did not see the neon writing on the wall stating "toxicological biochemistry" within your word "ETC". I most certainly should have seen it there. And I also should have known Porter Down was included in "ETC" How lame of me.

It seems the guy on NZ TV commentary is voicing/presenting the information and opinions of the experts he spoke with. I did not get the feeling of resentment towards him for not having a degree in "ETC" as you say.

Porter Down (new to me) is apparently an organization involved in chemical biological warfare research for a government.

Staff at any hospital simply call the local "poison control center" if unsure. Can also call an ID (infectious disease) consultant. OP poisoning and treatment is a glaringly important topic in training.

Organic chem is a pre-requisite before biochem, which is before pharmacology. The real beef of the matter as far as toxicology goes is pharm, pathopysiology, and some understanding of neurophysiology. The lab techs of course know a lot about the assays and running the machines.Most of organic chem is forgotten and not used in clinical toxicology. I speak not from google searches but from perspiration of having taken all of the above classes, and many more.

Edited May 9, 2011 by atyclb

[garycm]

Sickening, absolutely sickening to read this. Parents to be embraced and

commended for their responses, but it will cloud their lives forever. I can't even begin to imagine the horror of that.<br>

<br>

I am not surprised at the ignorance of the hotel and the sprayers. I have

been wondering how the majority of Thais, outside the realms legitimate

universities, actually ever learn anything, especially when you take a

look at whatever media there is, or isn't. The television is for the most part

trash, and there is no printed media where I am. Internet cafes are

chock full of kids playing games, and the only other obvious use of

Internet is sport fishing for farang fools with money. So a product is

banned for indoor use in how many countries? Most of these people have

never even heard of those countries, let alone care what happens in

them, especially when you have prominent politicians proudly outspoken

about disrespect for farangs. My 36 year old ex, with supposedly a

Bachelor degree (in hairdressing?) didn't even know that Australia

wasn't part of Europe. For heaven's sake. When the most recent of van

crashes occurred, she just brushed it off, together with my concerns for

the speeds they drive at. It wasn't the van I take, so it didn't matter.

To illustrate her indifference, she topped speeds of 150 kmph when she

drove me to the airport in March, against my wishes to take the train. She doesn't want a partner who saves money, is concerned about this

life and rides a bicycle for all the good reasons of health (avoiding stress), economy and

concerns for the environment. It's bad for her image. My point is,

that if she, a supposed graduate, is so uncaring about such things, who

the hell is going to care about a substance in a bedroom you can't even

see. I do not think there will ever be answer that will provide any

measure of solace.

(By the way, I do not use the vans for transport to BKK any more.)

she doesn't know where Australia is. Probably confused with Austria. I never hear the difference when Thai say it. but a lot US Americans think that Europe is a country and never heard of Belgium or Turkey

[andrewdrummond]

The persistence of the parents and the 60 Minutes airing of the possible cause of Sarah's death has paid off with the announcement here in Kiwiland tonite that WHO will conduct their own enquiry into the events.

I am afaid it is Thailand shooting itself in the foot again. It was interesting to see the Governor and Chief Medical officers of Chiang Mai sitting together on the same sofa, with one saying he thought it was still coincidental and t'other saying he suspected chemicals, knew what they were, but did not wish to comment or name the company.

Interestingly and thankfully the Chiang Mai doctors were not at fault.

http://www.andrew-drummond.com/view-story.php?sid=395

[Jingthing]

Yes they could prevent even more PR damage if they acknowledged the chemicals were a very possible cause and then announce an organized campaign of action to prevent this to ever be caused again by chemicals (at the national level). It's going to be difficult to ever say all suspected deaths were caused by chemicals with 100 percent certainty, but at least that would indicate the authorities are taking responsibility for the issue rather than weaseling. As it is now, sorry, Thai tourism DESERVES to be damaged. I said from the moment I heard of this case, that hotel should have been totally closed immediately after that string of deaths until the cause could be determined and corrected. That would happen in any normal country.

Edited May 9, 2011 by Jingthing

[Estrada]

Porter Down (new to me) is apparently an organization involved in chemical biological warfare research for a government.

Staff at any hospital simply call the local "poison control center" if unsure. Can also call an ID (infectious disease) consultant. OP poisoning and treatment is a glaringly important topic in training.

Organic chem is a pre-requisite before biochem, which is before pharmacology. The real beef of the matter as far as toxicology goes is pharm, pathopysiology, and some understanding of neurophysiology. The lab techs of course know a lot about the assays and running the machines.Most of organic chem is forgotten and not used in clinical toxicology. I speak not from google searches but from perspiration of having taken all of the above classes, and many more.

I am British and most Brits are familiar with Porton Down Germ Warfare Establishment which is located in Salisbury which is where the Army have a very large area of land to practice all sorts of warfare e.g. tank battles and germ warfare. They became notorious originally due to release of Anthrax Spores I think in the '50s or '60s when they managed to wipe out a flock of sheep and render an island a no go area for some years, some spores escaped to the mainland and started an epidemic.

On the matter of organic chemistry I would disagree. I have run laboratories in the UK working on water and waste, processes etc, and also in Malaysia I ran a Dairy Food/Drinks UHT Plant supplying school milk to the whole of Malaysia, and in Libya I was responsible for setting up the public health laboratories for the GMRP. All food manufacturing and analysis is mainly based on organic chemistry, as part of that the organic chemist will investigate any toxicological affects of food ingredients. What we are talking about here is probably a food or water based toxin.

When I was at Thai Dairy (Australian Dairies) I designed an improved Sweetened Condensed Milk Manufacturing Plant. After the Thai Managment parted company with Australian Dairies the control as regards the introduction of toxins obviously became very lax as they were found to have been manufacturing SCM Palm Oil flavour with milk powder containing Melamine, which as we know is toxic. In China where the Dairy used melamine in their milk powder, I think they executed the CEO. In Thailand nothing will happen due to powerful connections, the same is the case with the Downtown Hotel, what truly was responsible for the deaths is unlikely to be published.

[Lizard2010]

Thanks for keeping us updated.

We were at the Hotel when it first started.

When we got home we found all this out about the deaths

We were talking to one of the front counter supervisors and the Hotel manager waived us to go to our room 505 which is behind the lift.

We thought that was unusual.

I believe we were in the way as they were trying to get the body down stairs.

We left to go to Chiang Rai the day the NZ girls arrived at the Hotel.

My wife was getting a bad sinus infection, she believed this was possibly caused by the chemical fumes on the 5th floor.

We also did not smell any chemicals.

There was no sign to say that they has sprayed chemicals when we were there.

Hopefully we will find out soon the USA & Japan sample results.

[RickBradford]

My condolences to Sarah Carter's family and friends, and kudos to all those who have persevered to expose the truth of this incident.

Unfortunately the childish notion of 'face' will prevent any robust action being taken here; the poisoning will be tacitly admitted, and put down to an unfortunate misunderstanding, but it will be prevented from being a big issue, or anyone being called to account. That increases the likelihood of something similar happening again in the future.

No, if a piece of wrongdoing is going to get major attention from the Thai authorities, it has to be something really serious, like teenage girls dancing topless on a truck during a New Year party.

Such are the dictates of 'face' and hence the priorities in Thailand. Tourists poisoned? Nah, forget it. Teenage totty getting them oot for the lads? National scandal.

[atyclb]

Porter Down (new to me) is apparently an organization involved in chemical biological warfare research for a government.

Staff at any hospital simply call the local "poison control center" if unsure. Can also call an ID (infectious disease) consultant. OP poisoning and treatment is a glaringly important topic in training.

Organic chem is a pre-requisite before biochem, which is before pharmacology. The real beef of the matter as far as toxicology goes is pharm, pathopysiology, and some understanding of neurophysiology. The lab techs of course know a lot about the assays and running the machines.Most of organic chem is forgotten and not used in clinical toxicology. I speak not from google searches but from perspiration of having taken all of the above classes, and many more.

I am British and most Brits are familiar with Porton Down Germ Warfare Establishment which is located in Salisbury which is where the Army have a very large area of land to practice all sorts of warfare e.g. tank battles and germ warfare. They became notorious originally due to release of Anthrax Spores I think in the '50s or '60s when they managed to wipe out a flock of sheep and render an island a no go area for some years, some spores escaped to the mainland and started an epidemic.

On the matter of organic chemistry I would disagree. I have run laboratories in the UK working on water and waste, processes etc, and also in Malaysia I ran a Dairy Food/Drinks UHT Plant supplying school milk to the whole of Malaysia, and in Libya I was responsible for setting up the public health laboratories for the GMRP. All food manufacturing and analysis is mainly based on organic chemistry, as part of that the organic chemist will investigate any toxicological affects of food ingredients. What we are talking about here is probably a food or water based toxin.

When I was at Thai Dairy (Australian Dairies) I designed an improved Sweetened Condensed Milk Manufacturing Plant. After the Thai Managment parted company with Australian Dairies the control as regards the introduction of toxins obviously became very lax as they were found to have been manufacturing SCM Palm Oil flavour with milk powder containing Melamine, which as we know is toxic. In China where the Dairy used melamine in their milk powder, I think they executed the CEO. In Thailand nothing will happen due to powerful connections, the same is the case with the Downtown Hotel, what truly was responsible for the deaths is unlikely to be published.

The case of the hotel deaths seems to be related to organophosphate poisoning and could have been absorbed via the skin on a mattress/bediing, via cross contamination. What you say regarding the implementation of food processing facilities may well be true. The detection of non microbials in food is done in the lab by lab techs. If I recall they have various methods including spectrography. Day to day use of high organic chem content might be used by pharmaceutical engineers or chemists that synthesize compounds.

As far as food safety outside of chemical toxins, it would be the microbiologists realm that monitor such things. Every medical toxicologist and doctor I've ever known pretty much forget the bulk of organic chemistry. The setting here in the story is not a food processing plant

Edited May 9, 2011 by atyclb

[Atmos]

UPDATE FROM PARENTS In New Zealand

The Thais are very good at sending off Western drug traffickers to the gallows, so this will be the test of how serious they are when it comes to looking at criminal negligence involving their own people and will really show the world whether there's one standard for everyone or whether there are two different standards - one for Westerners and one for their own people." Sarah Carter's mother, Anna Carter, said she hoped action would be taken so other tourists would not die.

From NZAP

He (this quote was from Richard Carter) is well off the mark here - confused with Singapore/Malaysia

Thais have never "sent off Western drug traffickers to the gallows"

Thailand has carried out the death penalty twice since 2003 - by lethal injection. Both men were Thai.

Thailand used an automatic weapon from 1934 to kill until 2003 when the first lethal injections were used (4).

While the death sentence may still be imposed, in has been generally commuted to life imprisonment - with exceptions as above

In 2010 the total number of those under sentence of death numbered 708 source

As for Westerners - one site said over 100 years since a white westerner had been executed here. Plenty of non-Thai (Asians) but no 'westerners'

Death Sentences in Thailand

There are 708 prisoners condemned to death in Thailand, two have been executed during the last eight years. The tendency is that death sentences are being commuted to life imprisonment by Appeal Courts. But the overall number of those sentenced is not decreasing. In the last year, 53 death sentences were handed down in Courts of First Hearing, showing that a breath of change has yet to reach the judiciary.

Meanwhile, the Government has declared, in its current five year human rights programme, an intention to abolish the death penalty.

******************

A rant from a distressed father, but clearly lacking in facts.

[dunkin2012]

Chlorpyrifos 's still not the final conclusion though.

many questions in my mind.

Thai authorities got the ball and play it in the way they want it.

if you demand justice here, it's not possible. ( profits sharing) for these people.... otherwise the hotel can't be in business now.

75% off looks like a good deal..

to prevent people from lodging in that hotel and die ( think of it)

D2012

[ginjag]

Chlorpyrifos 's still not the final conclusion though.

many questions in my mind.

Thai authorities got the ball and play it in the way they want it.

if you demand justice here, it's not possible. ( profits sharing) for these people.... otherwise the hotel can't be in business now.

75% off looks like a good deal..

to prevent people from lodging in that hotel and die ( think of it)

D2012

Is it true this 75% off ??? if so to my mind it's their way of saying SORRY disgusting.

[RickBradford]

As a recent visitor noted on TripAdvisor:

After climbing in and starting to fall asleep, I kept thinking mosquitoes were biting me... and then I thought I felt something tiny run across my shoulder, then my leg. I thought I was imagining it and eventually fell asleep.

In the morning my husband's ankles and legs were covered in little red dots that were itching him like crazy. He'd gotten it worse than me. He identified them as "definitely bed bugs". Since we were checking out super early, we didn't bother making a big fuss about it... but I definitely wouldn't stay there again.

Perhaps a concerned party could advise TripAdvisor about this hotel and stop them killing anyone else?

Edited May 9, 2011 by RickBradford

[dunkin2012]

As a recent visitor noted on TripAdvisor:

After climbing in and starting to fall asleep, I kept thinking mosquitoes were biting me... and then I thought I felt something tiny run across my shoulder, then my leg. I thought I was imagining it and eventually fell asleep. In the morning my husband's ankles and legs were covered in little red dots that were itching him like crazy. He'd gotten it worse than me. He identified them as "definitely bed bugs". Since we were checking out super early, we didn't bother making a big fuss about it... but I definitely wouldn't stay there again.

so are ya interested ?

Stay at Downtown Inn Chiang Mai

Up to 70% off, No Booking Fees!

please ... but don't let us know how bad the bedbugs are if you will go there........... haha :guitar:haha.......

Edited May 9, 2011 by dunkin2012

[msg362]

... snip ... Whilst it would be extremely unlikely that one death would occur due to this substance especially with very short term exposure, the fact that there have been more deaths which have occured and that the deaths were fairly rapid does not fit the known toxicology effects of the Chemical Chloropyrifos. ... snip ... I am afraid that this is not a case solved, it is a case covered up. ... snip ...

Sawadee Khrup, Khun Estrada,

This is a very thoughtful critique of the current hypothesis of the cause of these multiple deaths: and that hypothesis could well be a "rush to judgement."

Hope you'll write a letter-to-the-editor of either the Bangkok Post or Nation conveying this analysis, and your reservations about the academic credentials of the investigator.

We live in Chiang Mai, and first thought came into our head, when we heard about the multiple fatalities all linked to that hotel, was the fact that the Anusarn Market seafood restaurant area is less than a hundred meters from that hotel, second thought was central air-con, but it has come out the rooms have individual air-con units, we believe.

thanks, ~o:37;

I commented on this to the Bangkok Post, I know the editor so I will take this up with him personally.

I was involved in the Staffordshire Hospital, Sheffield City Bus and the BBC Legionella outbreaks in the UK back in the '70s -'80s because I supplied water recycling plants for their vehicle washes. The Experts blamed my water recycling plants, but I carried out in depth research eventually contacting the Germ Warfare Estblishment at Porton Down UK. Working with Porton Down on the problem I was able to gain a lot of background on the legionella bacillii which I believe was possibly originally manufactured by them but escaped. I carried out on site investigations and after further discussions with Porton Down we found that the problem was in the air conditioning. In the case of Stafford hospital, the bacteria was being bred in aircon waste drain and sucked up and atomised in the hosiptal humidifiers. People are only affected by bacteria contained in atomised water droplets of very low micron size (5 Micron). The normal water spray cannot affect you, and then only in the case where the people have destroyed their lung's natural defences by smoking, and generally are over 56 years of age. Hence, the most famous case which gave rise to the name was at a Legionaires Conference, hence "Legionella".

Following my research Porton Down Experts formed a Private Consultancy Company for investigation and advice to Water Companies on Legionella in Water Systems, whilst at the time I was Consultant to the British Health Service, various oil companies and the Car Wash Association on Legionella in Car Washing and water recycling systems in general.

The Germ Warfare Establishment were famous for conducting experiments on enlisted British Soldiers with Sarin and various bacterium and molds with a view of using the compounds for incapacitating, paralysing or even killing enemy soldiers. In my view they would be able to establish the cause of death as they are the World's experts, having created a number of lethal bacterium which seem to have escaped into the environment.

Working with Porton Down on the problem I was able to gain a lot of background on the legionella bacillii which I believe was possibly originally manufactured by them but escaped

Yet more nonsense! Porton Down did not 'invent' this bacterium There was an outbreak in a hotel in the USA, a conference of?? ex soldiers?? contracted the disease.It was first isolated there. It's a very common bacterium ( bacilli is plural for bacillus a rod shaped organism) It was then isolated in many other places.

( BTW I was for 10 years a specialist microbiology inspector for the HSE ( The first actually ) and investigated among other things the last outbreak of smallpox in Birmingham in 197??,, oversaw the disinfection of Gruniard island with Porton Down ( anthrax )and lots of other fun stuff )

[msg362]

Just as a matter of fact, Gruniard island, which is about 500 metres off the mainland in north west Scotland, was the island used. It was Churchill, i think, who wanted to use anthrax as a weapon to destroy german livestock in WW2. Unfortunately it didn't go away so it wasn't used!! The island was leased from the local owner or £50 but could not be returned until it was free from anthrax. In the mid 70's Porton down experimented with disinfecting it with formaldehyde. which worked. I was working at the time for the HSE as a specialist microbiology inspector. Got immunised against anthrax( yes it's possible) and went to observe. Great fun. There were outbreaks on the mainland when the original experiments were done. My boss at the time actually took part in the original test and had some hair raising stories!

It was finally returned to the owner and the government got it £50 back.

Edited May 9, 2011 by msg362