mark,

I'd tried to find info on puncture tapping and came to a dead end. You read anything on it?

Google rubber puncture tapping. This link gives some info on it.

http://medinfo.psu.a.../2000/tsir1.htm

Nice find Mosha! I have been trying to see if there was any info on this for the last couple of years but my Google skills weren't up to the task. Its interesting to note that the positive is more latex production but the negative is less DRC. They claim that the household's income went up so one would assume that the increase in output offsets the decrease in DRC. I would be interested to see these things quantified a little more tho.

-k

The trouble is when you ask "Why do they do it like that?" All you gear in reply is "Everybody does it like this. " Most of the time there is no interest in trying something different. Took me 3 years to stop my wife wasting money planting durian behind the house. 10 months of the year the soil is too wet. Eventually I got her around to palm, and they are doing well.

mark,

I'd tried to find info on puncture tapping and came to a dead end. You read anything on it?

Glenn,

I think the term "puncture tapping" originates from trials in the early 90's.

The objective of the trials was to discover techniques which would reduce the skill & time required for rubber tapping.

One idea at that time was to puncture the tree with hollow metal pins & extract the latex through the center of the pins.

I don't think this system ever became commercially available, however this research led to modern commercially available tapping systems like RRIMFLOW & G FLEX which are commercially available for mature trees >15 years old.

I will try to pull together a post summarising my understanding of the latest technology & my thinking regarding these systems.

mark,

I'd tried to find info on puncture tapping and came to a dead end. You read anything on it?

Google rubber puncture tapping. This link gives some info on it.

http://medinfo.psu.a.../2000/tsir1.htm

Nice find Mosha! I have been trying to see if there was any info on this for the last couple of years but my Google skills weren't up to the task. Its interesting to note that the positive is more latex production but the negative is less DRC. They claim that the household's income went up so one would assume that the increase in output offsets the decrease in DRC. I would be interested to see these things quantified a little more tho.

-k

I have quickly skim read the link from Mosha.

I think this link refers to RRIMFLOW or a similar system.

When they use the term "puncture tap" in this document they are referring to the puncture made into the tree, which allows the stimulation gas to enter the tree.

As with anything there are pros & cons to these systems, however they have been extensively researched, have clear operating criteria & have been commercially used for over a decade.

Thanx Ken. appreciate that. You've explained it well.

I know 1 kg is 1 kg regardless if it is rubber, stone, metal or wood.

I also know wet cup is at the bottom of the pile, and sheet is on the top rung of the ladder, quality wise.

Jim, please go into your shed next time your workers are producing and just weigh for me the 3 litres of latex you use to make that one sheet of rubber. I presume your sheets weigh the usual/average 1.2 - 1.3 kg per sheet. Then tell me what those 3 litres weigh. Also, hypothetically, if you were selling latex to a buyer, what price would you get today, if wet cup price is 43, and sheet is 75-80 per kg?

Thankyou,

Mike.

Don't have to weight it, 3 liters of latex will weight about 4 kilos depending on water content [or DRC ] one liter of water is one kilo. As to liquid latex prices, no sure, but will be finding out soon. A new condom, rubber glove factory is opening up in Ubon shortly.

When we we buying, when prices were higher, we paid 20 to 30 Baht above the dry cup price for the DRC of the latex,

As said in an earlier post, making sheet is a value adding process and with low prices the value added may not cover the costs or time spent doing so, ergo tappers are happy to do cup.

If you have the machines, sheds etc you can cut your cost and time per sheet. In these low price times hand flattening and small rolling machine mean a lot of time and effort by the tappers, they don't make enough return to warrant the extra effort.

Was just working out, for the best plantation, a husband and wife team using family to collect the rubber. Paying them what ever, for a few hours work. They will earn 55,000 Baht for the month. If prices were back to double what they are now, they would be making, after their costs a good western wage, no tax, cash in hand. Jim

Jim,

thankyou for an answer. Now can you confirm that 3 litres of latex that weighs approx 4 kg makes you how many sheet in what weight?

Thanx, i may be getting there now,

Mike.

Jim,

thankyou for an answer. Now can you confirm that 3 litres of latex that weighs approx 4 kg makes you how many sheet in what weight?

Thanx, i may be getting there now,

Mike.

Fairly simple 3 liters of latex makes a 1 kilo or there about RSS . Latex out of the tree runs around 32 to 38 % DRC. You make sheet by adding water and acid, but the 3 liters gets you around a 1 kilo sheet. If you left the 3 liter of latex to dry in cups, you would get 1 kilo of dry cup rubber, same same. All this wet cup buying is all based on the 1 kilo of dry rubber you get. No one buys water.

It's a numbers game, no matter what the Thais tell you, the price is set by the DRC and the costs involved in making TSR or sheet. As said crepe is a bit different, as they use very wet cup to make sheet, but the machinery cost are so much lower and the rubber has a different usage. Jim

Thankyou Jim,

i rest my case. Wet cup at 43 baht per kilo seems a much better deal than sheet at 74-78 baht per kilo. Because you've got 3 litres/4kg of latex in that one sheet which may weigh as much as 1.3 kg. My 4 kg of wet cup makes 43 x 4 = 172 baht. I'm not talking about dry cup or DRC %ges, but what money people get at the end of the day when they sell their production, be it wet/dry cup, liquid latex or sheet.

Mike.

Thankyou Jim,

i rest my case. Wet cup at 43 baht per kilo seems a much better deal than sheet at 74-78 baht per kilo. Because you've got 3 litres/4kg of latex in that one sheet which may weigh as much as 1.3 kg. My 4 kg of wet cup makes 43 x 4 = 172 baht. I'm not talking about dry cup or DRC %ges, but what money people get at the end of the day when they sell their production, be it wet/dry cup, liquid latex or sheet.

Mike.

Would doubt any wet cup has more water content then 20 to 30 % water content, if if did you would be pouring it out. Rubber buyers are not that stupid that they buy rubber wet, have a multi million dollar factory to make block { dry rubber ] and pay for the rubber they can buy as sheet.

Wet cup here goes for around 35 Baht a kilo, 3 day old, check your weights dry a few cups and see how much weight they lose. Think you will find that they don't have as much water as you think. Nature of rubber when the polymers bond they force out the water. Jim

I will try to summarise my research into the latest rubber plantation management & production techniques.

I will do this step by step as it is quite an extensive subject.

1. Tree clonal type, RRIM 3001 (Latex Timber clone).

Considering the whole life cycle of a rubber plantation there are 3 phases, it is therefore important to consider the costs & expenditure during each phase.

Comparisons are between RRIM 3001 & RRIM 600 (The standard rubber tree planted in Thailand).

1.1 Planting & immature phase.

During this time there is no income and substantial expenditure.

RRIM 3001 will reduce this period by 40%, from 7 years to 5 years.

1.2 Tapping phase.

During this phase income is derived from the sale of latex.

RRIM 3001 will increase average latex yield by 78%, from 280 Kg / Rai, to 500 Kg / Rai.

1.3 Felling for timber.

Around 20 - 25 years is normally the optimum time to fell the trees & sell the timber for a one off capital gain.

RRIM 3001 will provide 2 cubic meters of timber / tree after 15 years.

RRIM 600 will produce 0.42 cubic meters of timber / tree after 21 years.

RRIM 3001 will increase timber by 476% in 70% of the time.

2. Planting density.

Before you determine planting density it is critical to identify if you will intercrop a cash crop, either during the immature period or even during the mature tapping phase.

Another option you may consider would be to intercrop with a cash crop during the immature phase, before integrating livestock (normally chickens, goats or sheep) during the mature tapping phase.

All of these options would require a decreased planting density from the one proposed below, which is designed to maximise latex & timber production / Rai.

The current recommended planting density for latex & timber production is:

112 trees / Rai.

4m x 3.6m

This is a 47% increase in the number of trees / Rai compared to the standard Thai method of 7m x 3m.

No reduction in the amount of latex / tree / tap was observed at 112 trees / Rai.

The advantage of the standard Thai method is that it allows space for cash crops to be grown during the immature phase.

Studies have been conducted up to 160 trees / Rai, 4m x 2.5m, this planting density provided the most latex / Rai, however the amount of latex, per tree, per tap decreased.

Interestingly for timber production the higher number of trees per Rai resulted in the most useable timber / tree.

Thankyou Jim,

i rest my case. Wet cup at 43 baht per kilo seems a much better deal than sheet at 74-78 baht per kilo. Because you've got 3 litres/4kg of latex in that one sheet which may weigh as much as 1.3 kg. My 4 kg of wet cup makes 43 x 4 = 172 baht. I'm not talking about dry cup or DRC %ges, but what money people get at the end of the day when they sell their production, be it wet/dry cup, liquid latex or sheet.

Mike.

Mike,

The comparison wont work set up this way. The 3 liters of liquid latex does not equal 3 liters of wet cup. There is a lot less water in a wet cup than there is in liquid latex.

The only way to really make an accurate comparison is to figure out what percentage of water is contained in a kilo of wet cup. It would be preferable, and most accurate to figure using your own wet cups as the numbers will vary depending on the clone, age of the tree, how much rain the trees received, etc.

Here is a simple formula to compare two different selling methods. This is based on the percentage of the weight, not volume.

X / Y = Z

X = The lower of the two prices that want to compare (ie wet cup price)

Y = The higher of the two prices for comparison (ie sheet)

Z = The balance point. The percentage of actual rubber weight needed in X to make selling X or Y the same. If your product has a higher percentage of weight due to rubber than this, then you'll get more money for your rubber by selling via method Y.

Here is an example:

Wet cup: 40B/kg

Sheet: 70B/kg

40 / 70 = .5714 = 57.14%

So, if 57% or more of the WEIGHT of your wet cup is due to rubber (ie 570g or more of rubber in your 1kg wet cup), then you'll make more money selling it as sheets. If the weight of your wet cup is less than 57% rubber, then you'll make more money selling wet cup (or whatever method you were using to compare).

If we have an idea what percentage of the wet cup weight is water, or we just want to take a WAG we can do this:

Sheet price: 70B/kg

Est DRC weight: 80%

70 * .8 = 56B/kg

A wet cup price of 56B/kg means you'll get the same Baht per kilo for your actual rubber content if you sold sheet or wet cup. A wet cup price below this point and your start to get more money for sheets (labor and materials not included).

The caveats here are these numbers do not take into account the cost of labor and materials, nor does it take into account the cost of convincing your wife to change her mind. These calculations are based on the percentage of weight since weight is how its sold (not to be confused with percentage of volume, like how most liquids are measured).

Disclaimer: I'm wrong a lot, my wife tells me so.. so this could contain inaccuracies. I did not type this drunk, but I typed it up without sufficient coffee.

Hope this helps.

-k

Mark,

Thanks for the research and write-up on that. Very interesting to see the different planting densities and the resulting yields (latex and lumber). Unfortunately, it seems everyone (including falangs) can fall into the "do it how its always been done" mentality. It is especially difficult to overcome when you're facing such a large financial commitment along with a long term commitment.

Good work digging that info up!

-k

Ken, Jim,

it's not about convincing the wife - she's all for doing sheet in 3 years time. 2 years from now we will be cutting all 64 rai, all 5000 trees. It's about convincing me. I have no problems building sheds, buying rollers, trays etc. The land was filled in and a borehole made 3 years ago where the sheet would be made, about 60m from our house. If prices pick up dramatically in 2-3 years time i can understand it, if the world is still in the doldrums - why bother. Stick at cup.

Mike.

Ken, Jim,

it's not about convincing the wife - she's all for doing sheet in 3 years time. 2 years from now we will be cutting all 64 rai, all 5000 trees. It's about convincing me. I have no problems building sheds, buying rollers, trays etc. The land was filled in and a borehole made 3 years ago where the sheet would be made, about 60m from our house. If prices pick up dramatically in 2-3 years time i can understand it, if the world is still in the doldrums - why bother. Stick at cup.

Mike.

Mike, the "convincing the wife" thing was just tongue-in-check humor from me. It's not aimed at any particular person.. just acknowledging some of the occasional struggles we all have to go thru with our significant others.

Mark,

Thanks for the research and write-up on that. Very interesting to see the different planting densities and the resulting yields (latex and lumber). Unfortunately, it seems everyone (including falangs) can fall into the "do it how its always been done" mentality. It is especially difficult to overcome when you're facing such a large financial commitment along with a long term commitment.

Good work digging that info up!

-k

Kolohe,

I have already completed all of the research, it will just take me some time to summarise the important points in a structured & logical way.

I will continue posting step by step through the plantation life cycle.

My findings are radically different to the standard way Rubber plantations are manged in Thailand.

Doing things the way they have always been done is very tempting in Thailand.

A plantation is a major long term investment & Thais (including my wife) are comfortable copying everyone else, but feel very nervous about doing things differently.

This concept of not loosing face is deeply engrained in them, which is exactly what they think will happen if they do things differently & fail.

Even if there is no logical link between doing things differently & problems encountered, they will think there is.

I believe in my research, however even I may be tempted to just do things the Thai way to keep the wife fully onboard.

I thought i would add something to the cup v sheet debate. My wife has a plantation in Surat thani and has always made sheet. From time to time the staff have asked to change but not to cup, they want to sell liquid latex. In that area only about 10% of owners make sheet, 10% do cup and the others sell latex. The price for latex is normally 4 or 5 baht less than air dried sheet. Last tuesday it was 77 for air dried sheet, 73 for latex and 35 for wet cup. At those prices its obviously better to sell latex than do cup.

Not sure if this helps in the debate or confuses it more but i know what i would make

Cheers

Warren

Warren,

Have heard this is true in Surat.I was told it is because a lot of trees in your area are very old ,20 years and up ,so therefore the rubber content is much higher than a younger tree.1 thing to be very careful of if selling liquid is this.The buyer will pay you on the percentage of rubber content.Often they will take it to a lab and test it and then pay you next day or some time.So you don't know if they are liars or not.Also this can not be stored as it goes off quickly.So you can't keep it and wait for a better price per kilo..As Jim would say''margins ,it's all about the margins ''

I thought i would add something to the cup v sheet debate. My wife has a plantation in Surat thani and has always made sheet. From time to time the staff have asked to change but not to cup, they want to sell liquid latex. In that area only about 10% of owners make sheet, 10% do cup and the others sell latex. The price for latex is normally 4 or 5 baht less than air dried sheet. Last tuesday it was 77 for air dried sheet, 73 for latex and 35 for wet cup. At those prices its obviously better to sell latex than do cup.

Not sure if this helps in the debate or confuses it more but i know what i would make

Cheers

Warren

Latex is a somewhat hard call. It depends on how close the buyer/factory is. In our case the new condom/rubber glove factory is 130 km away. Then you have to take into consideration the transport costs and amounts you will transport. As Cobbler quoted me, it's all about the margins, a Baht here and there can make a difference between profit and loss. Jim

I have two question;

Does Irrigating rubber trees (in Isaan) increase the vitality of the trees as they mature to 5 or 7 years of age?

Does a balanced watering of trees (the substitution for inconsistent rain fall & draughts) increase the productivity of the trees during harvest season?

I have two question;

Does Irrigating rubber trees (in Isaan) increase the vitality of the trees as they mature to 5 or 7 years of age?

Does a balanced watering of trees (the substitution for inconsistent rain fall & draughts) increase the productivity of the trees during harvest season?

Water is good for any plant, if you water rubber you increase the length of the tapping season and get move latex as the trees decrease out put as they get dryer. Jim

Thank you,

We are preparing to plant the the last section, 8 Rai, of a 25 Rai area that we have purchased over the past few years. I have designed a drip irrigation system similar to those used by orchard growers. We will be putting the well and holding tanks in this spring before the rains and prior to our last planting.

Our hope is to not lose any trees to drought as we did in 2009/2010.

Have you any recommendations for a good ground cover to hold the moisture in the ground. A planting that will not compete for the water. It took me two years to convince my wife not plant monsompilong (spelling unknown) with young rubber trees. Thai appear to struggle with what they perceive as non productive land.

we have a plot of 6 rai, 3 yr old trees that are doing alright. about 10 mths ago we had the space between the trees tilled. that went ok. during most of the year the ground is fairly hard and firm but during the rainy season it is easy to sink ankle deep in mud. Wife now says to again till in between the trees and I say why bother as we've kept the weeds down and trees in the forest grow fine without tilling, plus tilling is bound to tear up some roots.

what y'all doing on your farms ?

we have a plot of 6 rai, 3 yr old trees that are doing alright. about 10 mths ago we had the space between the trees tilled. that went ok. during most of the year the ground is fairly hard and firm but during the rainy season it is easy to sink ankle deep in mud. Wife now says to again till in between the trees and I say why bother as we've kept the weeds down and trees in the forest grow fine without tilling, plus tilling is bound to tear up some roots.

what y'all doing on your farms ?

Glenn, I stopped plowing after the 2 nd year, rubber trees have little surface roots. Have to say not really sure if you can plow longer, but didn't take the chance.

fb, corn or chilli is good, puts more back into the soil than it takes out, not sure on the man sapilang [ cassava ] but a lot of locals planted it between the rows. Jim

we have a plot of 6 rai, 3 yr old trees that are doing alright. about 10 mths ago we had the space between the trees tilled. that went ok. during most of the year the ground is fairly hard and firm but during the rainy season it is easy to sink ankle deep in mud. Wife now says to again till in between the trees and I say why bother as we've kept the weeds down and trees in the forest grow fine without tilling, plus tilling is bound to tear up some roots.

what y'all doing on your farms ?

Ploughing near the trees is not a good idea after they have been planted, it will damage the root system of the trees & may also increase soil erosion (dependant upon site specifics).

we have a plot of 6 rai, 3 yr old trees that are doing alright. about 10 mths ago we had the space between the trees tilled. that went ok. during most of the year the ground is fairly hard and firm but during the rainy season it is easy to sink ankle deep in mud. Wife now says to again till in between the trees and I say why bother as we've kept the weeds down and trees in the forest grow fine without tilling, plus tilling is bound to tear up some roots.

what y'all doing on your farms ?

Glenn:

I use a rototiller behind my tractor only, no plowing.

I just got through doing the 1, 2, and 3 year old trees. The rototiller doesn't go very deep so I can go quite close to the trees and where the planting is right I go between the rows, 6 meter spread and do a cross hatch the other direction where the trees are 3 m apart. The rototiller is 2.2m wide so fits easily. I have the hand labour do a 1 m cirlce of clearing around the trees and after I go through the land is spotless. I do this twice a year. The rest of the time I cut the grass with a mower attachment with the tractor.

Because we clean around the tree I'm not to worried about how high the grass gets once the trees are up and the rototiller chops the highest, nastiest grass right into the soil.

The first photo is after going through with the rototiller on some stuff we put in May 2011. Second photo is the same piece after cutting the grass last summer.

Been doing this for 3 years now and it doesn't hurt the root system at all.

Ken

45.75 baht per kilo in auction today, wet cup/dry cup/kee yang, Udon province.

Surat04;

at those prices i'd be selling latex too. Why bother doing sheet at 3 baht more. Another debate starting - 3 litres latex to make 1.3 kg sheet, yet 1 kg latex making 4 baht less. I no understando.

Down south they have been producing rubber for generations, it's always been latex and sheet. Up here in the NE, rubber has been produced really only in the last 25 years, i would say the % split is:

latex 1% (mistrust of the buyers)

sheet 14 %

cup 85%.

Glenn,

tell the missus to NOT plough anymore. 3 years is the max. Any operation that cuts roots, no matter how small will hinder growth. Once that canopy is starting, that's the end of ploughing. I would not plough after the 2nd rainy season, just cut the grass. Shit, on 6 rai you could cut it yourself in less than a day with one of those petrol engined / bicycle wheel things, we bought one recently - highly recommended on flat smooth land. The missus can cut 10 rai in a day with one of those things.

Regards,

Mike.

ps,

Man Sapalang (cassava) is a great cash crop, very good money at the moment... but not in amongst rubber trees. Have you seen the blade they use behind a tractor to pull it out?

we have a plot of 6 rai, 3 yr old trees that are doing alright. about 10 mths ago we had the space between the trees tilled. that went ok. during most of the year the ground is fairly hard and firm but during the rainy season it is easy to sink ankle deep in mud. Wife now says to again till in between the trees and I say why bother as we've kept the weeds down and trees in the forest grow fine without tilling, plus tilling is bound to tear up some roots.

what y'all doing on your farms ?

Glenn:

I use a rototiller behind my tractor only, no plowing.

I just got through doing the 1, 2, and 3 year old trees. The rototiller doesn't go very deep so I can go quite close to the trees and where the planting is right I go between the rows, 6 meter spread and do a cross hatch the other direction where the trees are 3 m apart. The rototiller is 2.2m wide so fits easily. I have the hand labour do a 1 m cirlce of clearing around the trees and after I go through the land is spotless. I do this twice a year. The rest of the time I cut the grass with a mower attachment with the tractor.

Because we clean around the tree I'm not to worried about how high the grass gets once the trees are up and the rototiller chops the highest, nastiest grass right into the soil.

The first photo is after going through with the rototiller on some stuff we put in May 2011. Second photo is the same piece after cutting the grass last summer.

Been doing this for 3 years now and it doesn't hurt the root system at all.

Ken

Ken,

Roots of the rubber trees are surface roots with only 1 major tap root(if it wasn't broken during planting.)These surface roots will be very fine while the tree is still very young .Be very careful.You maybe hurting your trees by cutting them without even knowing it..Really not recommended.. Everything will look great ,clean and very pretty.Problem is you can be stunting the growth of your trees.I'm not trying to hurt your feelings ,but I feel sorry for you if you waste your time and money ploughing when slashing will do a good enough job.

Cheers cobbler

45.75 baht per kilo in auction today, wet cup/dry cup/kee yang, Udon province.

Surat04;

at those prices i'd be selling latex too. Why bother doing sheet at 3 baht more. Another debate starting - 3 litres latex to make 1.3 kg sheet, yet 1 kg latex making 4 baht less. I no understando.

Down south they have been producing rubber for generations, it's always been latex and sheet. Up here in the NE, rubber has been produced really only in the last 25 years, i would say the % split is:

latex 1% (mistrust of the buyers)

sheet 14 %

cup 85%.

Glenn,

tell the missus to NOT plough anymore. 3 years is the max. Any operation that cuts roots, no matter how small will hinder growth. Once that canopy is starting, that's the end of ploughing. I would not plough after the 2nd rainy season, just cut the grass. Shit, on 6 rai you could cut it yourself in less than a day with one of those petrol engined / bicycle wheel things, we bought one recently - highly recommended on flat smooth land. The missus can cut 10 rai in a day with one of those things.

Regards,

Mike.

ps,

Man Sapalang (cassava) is a great cash crop, very good money at the moment... but not in amongst rubber trees. Have you seen the blade they use behind a tractor to pull it out?

Mike,You just gotta love this.... ''The missus can cut 10 rai in a day with one of those things''As if a man would do it. .After all this is Thailand ,men do S F A.I think you're ready to be a Thai citizen now all you need to do is forget which way to go,get 2 or 3 second wives and you will be Thai for sure.

Cheers Cobbler

I've got the weeds fairly well taken care of care of kids and self with weedwackers. Like I said, wife had the area tilled/plowed whatever the correct term is, tractor that has the angled row of discs behind which overturn the topsoil along with all weeds and grasses. Unless I hear a good reason to do this again I will not. So,

other than weed suppression, is there another reason FOR tilling? seems to me all it does is build mounds of dirt and make walking through the plot double tough, and I really question the benefit.