Uk Refusal Of Entry Clearance Appeal - Tourist Visa

[DannyS1951]

I have just got involved in the following.

A Thai, now naturalised British, girl in the UK wants to take her parents over there for two weeks for her wedding.

They are Isaan farmers. She has bought them return air tickets and put herself down as their sponsor. They were both refused a visa today on the grounds that they may not want to return to Thailand. This is highly unlikely as they have a decent house and land upcountry.

It seems they may have not taken enough paperwork to the embassy as in the reasons given for the suspicion they were economic migrants is the lack of proof they were the parents and they had not taken their land titles with them.

So my first question is that on the appeal form it asks whether you want the appeal decided on papers lodge here in Bangkok or with a oral hearing in the UK with their sponsor representing them. Which is better?

Second question. Has anyone been successful with an appeal in recent times?

Or is it really a case of only rich people get a UK tourist visa nowadays?

[theoldgit]

1. So my first question is that on the appeal form it asks whether you want the appeal decided on papers lodge here in Bangkok or with a oral hearing in the UK with their sponsor representing them. Which is better?

Probably differing views on this, Visa Plus, who is an ex ECO, and Thai Visa Express are both agents with a good deal of experience and will no doubt chip in, but my view is that it should be heard at the lowest possible level so I would go for a local review, which should, in theory, be quicker. You have already identified the probable cause of the refusal being the lack of evidence, so hopefully when the ECM is made aware of the full facts she might reverse the decision. This prove the importance of fully evidenced applications, the ECO's are not mind readers.

2. Has anyone been successful with an appeal in recent times?

Yes, plently of recent evidence on this forum alone.

3. Or is it really a case of only rich people get a UK tourist visa nowadays?

No, not at all, but as I said earlier the ECO's need to have sight of a compelling case.

Good luck

[bangkockney]

Depending on time constraints, such as the Big Day, you might consider a fresh application.

Appeals can drag on.

With the future in mind, submitting fresh evidence in support of an appeal could be blocked, so best to ensure all supporting documents are presented first time.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

I would re- apply this would be much quicker.

In a recent case a clients wife was visiting him on a family visit he is 21 in November so they cannot apply for settlement until then.

In his covering letter he wrote my wife will return in September so we can apply for a settlement visa 2 months before my 21st birthday the visa can be dated to commence from my 21 st birthday.

The application was refused on the grounds the applicant intended staying in the UK until her husband was 21 .

It took them 8 weeks to read the sponsors letter again & realise they had yet again made a mistake.

They issued the visa however they could have issued it in 5 minutes not some 8 weeks later.

[daveyravey]

In theory you should start at the lowest level but in truth they dont give a dam_n and wont look at the appeal until days before the last permitted date.

my advice would be to have an oral hearing in the UK.

I bet that if you send all the paperwork to answer their refusal reasons then there is no way they will go to the tribunal. I wager they call you a few days before the tribunal hearing to tell you they are issuing the visas.

If you apply again you pay again and i have experience to prove they dont give a dam and in my case they actually created more reasons to fail us which i then had to answer as well.

The tribunal is actually independent of these people and more likely to be on the working mans side.

JUst make sure when you appeal you show concrete proof to refute all reasons why you were denied the visa.

[VisasPlus]

First you need to understand how the appeal system works. A hearing on papers and an oral hearing are both held in the UK. With a hearing on papers the IJ ( a kind of judge) makes a decision based on the documents before him, including any new documents that you provide when you appeal. With an oral hearing you can appoint someone to represent you at the hearing - a solicitor, barrister, etc. The whole process can take up to about eight months, and you would have to pay for a representative.

BUT when you submit your appeal, and any new documents that cover the reasons for refusal, at the Embassy in Bangkok it triggers a process called the Entry Clearance Managers review. Before the appeal goes to UK it is supposed to be reviewed by an ECM to see if it is okay to be presented at appeal. In reality, it allows them to look at the decision again, and if they have cocked up, they can reverse their refusal and issue the visa ( without getting a telling off from the IJ for making poor decisions ). Similarly, if you have presented documents sufficient to overcome the reasons for refusal, then the visa should be issued without the case going to UK for the appeal hearing. The time frame for this review process is debatable. My own view is that it should be immediate, but the Visa Section at the Embassy in Bangkok don't see it as a priority, so it can take a few weeks. Incidentally, Bangkok is the worst Embassy in the SE Asia region for carrying out reviews. I have just received a letter from UKBA to confirm this. Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta are completing their ECM reviews within ten days at the moment.

The alternative, as others have already pointed out, is to re-apply. I know others here have advised you to do that, but there are other considerations. The cost, for a start. You will have to weigh up paying another fee ( 150 + GBP ? ) against putting together a good appeal that will get the decision reversed here in Bangkok, free ! ( free at the moment - but you will have to pay for appeals from October this year ). If it doesn't get the decision reversed, then you can let it go to appeal, or make a new application ( or both). I know I keep saying you when it is a friend's parents we are talking about, but it's easier to explain it that way.

Edited May 25, 2011 by VisasPlus

[DannyS1951]

Thanks to everyone that answered. I think she will get them to reapply using a visa service in the hope of getting them there for the wedding.

[VisasPlus]

Thanks to everyone that answered. I think she will get them to reapply using a visa service in the hope of getting them there for the wedding.

If it's possible to post the refusal notice, or the complete reasons for refusal, then we might be able to give you a better idea of their chances.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

First you need to understand how the appeal system works. A hearing on papers and an oral hearing are both held in the UK. With a hearing on papers the IJ ( a kind of judge) makes a decision based on the documents before him, including any new documents that you provide when you appeal. With an oral hearing you can appoint someone to represent you at the hearing - a solicitor, barrister, etc. The whole process can take up to about eight months, and you would have to pay for a representative.

BUT when you submit your appeal, and any new documents that cover the reasons for refusal, at the Embassy in Bangkok it triggers a process called the Entry Clearance Managers review. Before the appeal goes to UK it is supposed to be reviewed by an ECM to see if it is okay to be presented at appeal. In reality, it allows them to look at the decision again, and if they have cocked up, they can reverse their refusal and issue the visa ( without getting a telling off from the IJ for making poor decisions ). Similarly, if you have presented documents sufficient to overcome the reasons for refusal, then the visa should be issued without the case going to UK for the appeal hearing. The time frame for this review process is debatable. My own view is that it should be immediate, but the Visa Section at the Embassy in Bangkok don't see it as a priority, so it can take a few weeks. Incidentally, Bangkok is the worst Embassy in the SE Asia region for carrying out reviews. I have just received a letter from UKBA to confirm this. Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta are completing their ECM reviews within ten days at the moment.

The alternative, as others have already pointed out, is to re-apply. I know others here have advised you to do that, but there are other considerations. The cost, for a start. You will have to weigh up paying another fee ( 150 + GBP ? ) against putting together a good appeal that will get the decision reversed here in Bangkok, free ! ( free at the moment - but you will have to pay for appeals from October this year ). If it doesn't get the decision reversed, then you can let it go to appeal, or make a new application ( or both). I know I keep saying you when it is a friend's parents we are talking about, but it's easier to explain it that way.

The reason for them making the trip is to attend a wedding in 2 weeks time so in the time frame available it is quicker to re-apply.

[7by7]

Thanks to everyone that answered. I think she will get them to reapply using a visa service in the hope of getting them there for the wedding.

If they are going to use a visa agent, get them to read this first.

I would recommend either Thai Visa Express or Visa Plus. I am not saying this because they are forum sponsors, but because I know them both to be professional, competent and honest.

[VisasPlus]

First you need to understand how the appeal system works. A hearing on papers and an oral hearing are both held in the UK. With a hearing on papers the IJ ( a kind of judge) makes a decision based on the documents before him, including any new documents that you provide when you appeal. With an oral hearing you can appoint someone to represent you at the hearing - a solicitor, barrister, etc. The whole process can take up to about eight months, and you would have to pay for a representative.

BUT when you submit your appeal, and any new documents that cover the reasons for refusal, at the Embassy in Bangkok it triggers a process called the Entry Clearance Managers review. Before the appeal goes to UK it is supposed to be reviewed by an ECM to see if it is okay to be presented at appeal. In reality, it allows them to look at the decision again, and if they have cocked up, they can reverse their refusal and issue the visa ( without getting a telling off from the IJ for making poor decisions ). Similarly, if you have presented documents sufficient to overcome the reasons for refusal, then the visa should be issued without the case going to UK for the appeal hearing. The time frame for this review process is debatable. My own view is that it should be immediate, but the Visa Section at the Embassy in Bangkok don't see it as a priority, so it can take a few weeks. Incidentally, Bangkok is the worst Embassy in the SE Asia region for carrying out reviews. I have just received a letter from UKBA to confirm this. Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta are completing their ECM reviews within ten days at the moment.

The alternative, as others have already pointed out, is to re-apply. I know others here have advised you to do that, but there are other considerations. The cost, for a start. You will have to weigh up paying another fee ( 150 + GBP ? ) against putting together a good appeal that will get the decision reversed here in Bangkok, free ! ( free at the moment - but you will have to pay for appeals from October this year ). If it doesn't get the decision reversed, then you can let it go to appeal, or make a new application ( or both). I know I keep saying you when it is a friend's parents we are talking about, but it's easier to explain it that way.

The reason for them making the trip is to attend a wedding in 2 weeks time so in the time frame available it is quicker to re-apply.

I think it says they are going for two weeks ?

Edited May 25, 2011 by VisasPlus

[daveyravey]

Thanks to everyone that answered. I think she will get them to reapply using a visa service in the hope of getting them there for the wedding.

If they are going to use a visa agent, get them to read this first.

I would recommend either Thai Visa Express or Visa Plus. I am not saying this because they are forum sponsors, but because I know them both to be professional, competent and honest.

Well they could always go to Paul King of Easy visa. Remember he is the man who started all the visa business so he is the "DADDY" so to speak,

and rememeber.......................................................... IF HE DONT GET YOUR VISA HE DONT WANT NO MONEY!!

His wife seems to be looking remarkably younger lately....................

[7by7]

Mr. King claims on his website "Registered migration agents with the I.I.L.A and E.G.C 'The embassies Governing Council'"

The most widely known I.I.L.A. is the International Institute of Loss Adjusters. Whether Mr. King is registered with them or not, I don't know; but what have loss adjusters got to do with migration?

There is an I.I.L.A. with a connection to migration; the International Institute of Los Angeles; they have never heard of Mr. King nor his company.

The "Embassies (sic) Governing Council" does not exist. Embassies are governed by the governments they represent. Ask any embassy of any country and they will tell you that they have never heard of this organisation.

The imaginary ECG does have a website; care to guess the only agent it recommends?

I wonder why he feels the need to invent non existent official sounding bodies to cloak himself in respectability. You seem to know him, daveywavey; perhaps you could ask him and let us know his answer.

To be fair to Mr. King, through forums such as this I know of people who have used his services and been successful.

But I also know of people who have used his services and failed. Did Mr. King waive his fee? No, he pointed to something in the small print, told them that he would hold onto their passport until paid and threatened legal action if they still wouldn't pay up.

Caveat Emptor.

[wandrinstar]

Cant anyone do anythingfor themself these Days.Who wants to go Half Way Round the World for a Wedding,and stay 2 Weeks,must be daft.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

First you need to understand how the appeal system works. A hearing on papers and an oral hearing are both held in the UK. With a hearing on papers the IJ ( a kind of judge) makes a decision based on the documents before him, including any new documents that you provide when you appeal. With an oral hearing you can appoint someone to represent you at the hearing - a solicitor, barrister, etc. The whole process can take up to about eight months, and you would have to pay for a representative.

BUT when you submit your appeal, and any new documents that cover the reasons for refusal, at the Embassy in Bangkok it triggers a process called the Entry Clearance Managers review. Before the appeal goes to UK it is supposed to be reviewed by an ECM to see if it is okay to be presented at appeal. In reality, it allows them to look at the decision again, and if they have cocked up, they can reverse their refusal and issue the visa ( without getting a telling off from the IJ for making poor decisions ). Similarly, if you have presented documents sufficient to overcome the reasons for refusal, then the visa should be issued without the case going to UK for the appeal hearing. The time frame for this review process is debatable. My own view is that it should be immediate, but the Visa Section at the Embassy in Bangkok don't see it as a priority, so it can take a few weeks. Incidentally, Bangkok is the worst Embassy in the SE Asia region for carrying out reviews. I have just received a letter from UKBA to confirm this. Kuala Lumpur and Jakarta are completing their ECM reviews within ten days at the moment.

The alternative, as others have already pointed out, is to re-apply. I know others here have advised you to do that, but there are other considerations. The cost, for a start. You will have to weigh up paying another fee ( 150 + GBP ? ) against putting together a good appeal that will get the decision reversed here in Bangkok, free ! ( free at the moment - but you will have to pay for appeals from October this year ). If it doesn't get the decision reversed, then you can let it go to appeal, or make a new application ( or both). I know I keep saying you when it is a friend's parents we are talking about, but it's easier to explain it that way.

The reason for them making the trip is to attend a wedding in 2 weeks time so in the time frame available it is quicker to re-apply.

I think it says they are going for two weeks ?

No Tony they are attending a wedding in 2 weeks time the client has already contacted me.

[bobrussell]

The 'Embassies Governing Council' website does have a strikingly similar appearance to some official websites I can mention!

[daveyravey]

Mr. King claims on his website "Registered migration agents with the I.I.L.A and E.G.C 'The embassies Governing Council'"

The most widely known I.I.L.A. is the International Institute of Loss Adjusters. Whether Mr. King is registered with them or not, I don't know; but what have loss adjusters got to do with migration?

There is an I.I.L.A. with a connection to migration; the International Institute of Los Angeles; they have never heard of Mr. King nor his company.

The "Embassies (sic) Governing Council" does not exist. Embassies are governed by the governments they represent. Ask any embassy of any country and they will tell you that they have never heard of this organisation.

The imaginary ECG does have a website; care to guess the only agent it recommends?

I wonder why he feels the need to invent non existent official sounding bodies to cloak himself in respectability. You seem to know him, daveywavey; perhaps you could ask him and let us know his answer.

To be fair to Mr. King, through forums such as this I know of people who have used his services and been successful.

But I also know of people who have used his services and failed. Did Mr. King waive his fee? No, he pointed to something in the small print, told them that he would hold onto their passport until paid and threatened legal action if they still wouldn't pay up.

Caveat Emptor.

OMG im shocked!

So has anyone actually gotten their money back from Paul KIng if he failed?

[Contractor]

The 'Embassies Governing Council' website does have a strikingly similar appearance to some official websites I can mention!

The website is one of a number registered to an individual at a terraced house in Margate. Not what you might expect with the website of an authorative, international governing body perhaps!

Although it states it is "the official" site, it contains no contact details - just a web enquiry form. Mickey Mouse.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Contractor

[7by7]

That's enough about Mr. King.

Back on topic, please.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

Mr. King claims on his website "Registered migration agents with the I.I.L.A and E.G.C 'The embassies Governing Council'"

The most widely known I.I.L.A. is the International Institute of Loss Adjusters. Whether Mr. King is registered with them or not, I don't know; but what have loss adjusters got to do with migration?

There is an I.I.L.A. with a connection to migration; the International Institute of Los Angeles; they have never heard of Mr. King nor his company.

The "Embassies (sic) Governing Council" does not exist. Embassies are governed by the governments they represent. Ask any embassy of any country and they will tell you that they have never heard of this organisation.

The imaginary ECG does have a website; care to guess the only agent it recommends?

I wonder why he feels the need to invent non existent official sounding bodies to cloak himself in respectability. You seem to know him, daveywavey; perhaps you could ask him and let us know his answer.

To be fair to Mr. King, through forums such as this I know of people who have used his services and been successful.

But I also know of people who have used his services and failed. Did Mr. King waive his fee? No, he pointed to something in the small print, told them that he would hold onto their passport until paid and threatened legal action if they still wouldn't pay up.

Caveat Emptor.

As long as we are doing things correctly I rarely don't care what others are doing the only other agency I recognise is Visa + . Although we are competitors this remains on a very friendly basis with mutual respect for each other. Myself & Tony regularly have chats about various immigration issues and I value his opinion.

[VisasPlus]

As long as we are doing things correctly I rarely don't care what others are doing the only other agency I recognise is Visa + . Although we are competitors this remains on a very friendly basis with mutual respect for each other. Myself & Tony regularly have chats about various immigration issues and I value his opinion.

Same here, Paul. It's always good to share experiences in applications and decisions, and it is good that we can do this. Talking of sharing experiences, see you on Friday !

[ThaiVisaExpress]

You're buying the beer afterwards I believe .