American Arrested In Thailand For Linking To A Website From His Blog

[NanLaew]

Lets talk about burning the American Flag in America...

Let's not and just say we did.

[michaeljordan]

I am a Royalist for the British Royal Family but still used to like Spitting Image taking the mickey out of the the Queen and Prince Feelleep.

You can laugh with someone but not mean any harm, some laws are just too tough.

Then don't live here. It's really very simple. If you don't wish to follow the laws, leave. That goes for anywhere one is a visitor.

I personally don't give a flying one about this topic, but do NOT call me a bloody 'visitor!

NO. Just visitor would have been good enough.

Do you have residence or citizenship?

Do you have to add toyour visa every year with an extension?

Well you might well deserve to be a resident but since the Thais do not grant you any rights, you are either a short time or long time visitor.

I prefer short time. HAAA HAAAA

[NanLaew]

In South Africa Nelson Mandela is called 'Madiba'; Father of the nation. There is no law prohibating discussion about him, and critisism is allowed. However, I never hear anyone from either side of the political spectrum disrespect him.

It is a sad thing when people are disrespectful to any other human being, be it the begger on the street or a member of a royal family. However, those who wish to express their opinion in a respectful way should be allowed that freedom. Such free opinions often help to balance propoganda.

The difference is Mandela helped draw his homeland out of the darkness.

[NanLaew]

Insult ?

When you are in a pet shop, zoo or in the wild, and a parrot calls you dirty names... you are angry at the parrot ?

Funnily enough, there was a member posted a thread recently about being offended by the cussing on FM107 when he was dining with his kids at McDonald's. So he took it out on the burger flippers.

[ozzieovaseas]

Sheez, the mods must hate threads like these

Anyway, things are as they are and none of us can change it so whats the point of talking about it?

Our schooling in the west teaches the naive such BS as the individual does have the power to change things..through a vote. (yeah right).

[AgentSmith]

Insult ?

When you are in a pet shop, zoo or in the wild, and a parrot calls you dirty names... you are angry at the parrot ?

I am happy to live in the Netherlands (EU) , where you are allowed to make jokes about everybody. Really everybody.

Last convinction because of Lese majestic: Domela Nieuwenhuis in 1887 for a half year jail. Released after a few days.

European Court for Human Rights in 1992: members of a governments ( we do not speak anymore about the King/Queen ) should be able to absorb more critics as normal people. And with this, end of discussion.

In Holland Hitler's Neon Kampf is still forbidden. You cannot sell it and I think you're not even allowed to have it. This is just plain stupid if you simply want to get insight in the psyche of one of history's biggest maniacs. True, Holland is still a very liberal country. It used to be Europe's safe haven for centuries for people with other ideas, religions and backgrounds. The last visit of the Pope was in the early eighties, a short visit as he was simply chased away by public opinion. The cynical pop hit Popi Jopi was the icing on the cake. Now Holland is considered a lost church province by Rome.

Wasn't there an LM case in Holland in the nineties by the way? I think they closed the case before it went to court but i am not sure.

[Scott]

Off-topic and nonsense posts along with quotes to them have been deleted.

[Emptyset]

I have no sympathy to be honest.

A lot of us know about the book that basically trashes the royal family here. It's not a particularly well written or well researched book.

This guy obviously sees himself as some sort of activist, why else would he be sitting up there in Isaan on using his blog to encourage people to rid this trash?

Now he's an activist, he can experience jail time like many other activists around the world.

Pity he didn't take up a worthy cause, isn't it?

Erm, this book author sold only a few copies. Are you one who bought a copy and read it or how it comes that you know that book and its content?

Gave some else it to you to read, like some one one the internet? That someone could face arrest and charges just like the one in the OP.

Huh, Pedro obviously hasn't read it or he wouldn't claim it wasn't well-researched or well-written or that it 'trashes' anyone. It's a critical biography, but it doesn't engage in unfounded 'trashing'. Not only was it praised by everyone important in Thai studies, I've had discussions with intelligent royalists who've at least agreed it was well-researched. Obviously there are criticisms that can be made of it, but this obviously isn't the place to discuss them. There just isn't another book like it on this topic, and there won't be another one anytime soon I'd guess. You can certainly appreciate the years of painstaking research that the author obviously put into it even if you disagree with the thrust of the narrative. The book tries to cover the positives and the negatives quite neutrally, I'd say, and your opinion after reading it will depend on your values (of course, people may disagree about what the positives and negatives actually are) and emphasis. Like most complex historical figures, multiple readings are possible. Unfortunately, at the moment, only one reading is permitted.

Also, it's not true that the book sold 'only a few copies'. It sold 16,000 books in the first year or so alone (I read an academic paper about it written in 2007, and that's the figure given). It's still in the top 20 books about Thai history/politics now on amazon.com. Not to mention all the bootleg copies and PDFs circulating. I don't think I know any Thai that has studied abroad and who is seriously interested in politics who hasn't read it...

[SteeleJoe]

The book in question is actually quite well written and is a very interesting read, whether or not one agrees with the content in total. It is, of course, legal to buy and read abroad. More than a few copies (as claimed) have been sold worldwide! Just don't try to bring a copy here or discuss its contents.

It has sold very well.

Two different books are being discussed in this thread.

One sold a few copies and was written by an Australian. The book mentioned in the OP was by an American and sold 250,000 copies (so-so sales when compared to top books).

"Top books" is too vague a term for me to understand. Obviously it would be ridiculous to compare it to a Dan Brown novel or even less mainstream fiction. It wouldn't even make sense to compare to a major work on US history.

But for a topic of relatively narrow interest (how many people in the world would even have any awareness of the subject let alone an interest -- relatively very few. I don't know how many copies it has sold but apparently it's a had a few printings and it's my understanding that for a book of that type it's been quite successful.

[SteeleJoe]

Lets talk about burning the American Flag in America and see how this compares with insulting the King of Thailand in Thailand. The King, I believe, as many before him, deserves respect and admiration. I cant say the same for what the flag represents. I can remember a time in the southern states when laws made black people sit in the back of a bus...until it was realised most accidents happened at the front of the bus..What happened then..you guessed it. Put the black people in the front. People in glass houses should definitely not throw stones.

Wow. It's rare to see a post so completely off on so many levels.

[Emptyset]

Not an easy to question to answer because you truly have to understand Thai Culture and history as opposed to only being able to thinking of western culture.

There was certainly a time when a public discourse about history was conducted with little fear, when for example, scholars reflected on the events of the 1930s and 40s and argued about whether writers like Kukrit and Seni Pramoj had reinvented a past that never quite existed. But who would discuss those questions in the present climate?

Precisely. That's the sort of context that's missing when people make assumptions about Thai culture - current Thai culture, of course. But it isn't this way because it's always been this way... which is what people always say. They say that because it's difficult to access information to the contrary, of course. There are many more similar examples that could be given which would make people question their assumptions about the unchanging nature of Thai culture.

[geronimo]

What would you say if the US brought in a law that you couldn't say anything bad about the president (whoever he happened to be)?

You are comparing apples to space ships. Not even a remotely close comparison.

If someone deserves respect, then they will be respected. It shouldn't be forced on people.

You are being naive if you believe this to be true. People go to jail all the time in the US for showing a police officer disrespect.. they call it disorderly conduct among other things. Kids are disciplined all the time in school for showing teachers disrespect. Adults are fired from their job for showing colleagues or bosses disrespect or gossiping negatively about others.

But Thailand is not our country and its laws were created by Thais to serve Thailand and its people. Their laws should not be our concern except to follow them while in the their country. If an outsider feels so strongly that human rights are being violated then they should stand up and do something while being prepared to face the consequences of such actions .. if no then they should mind their own business and follow the laws. Bottom line is if Thais want the law changed they will change it and it is should not be up to foreigners to decide what is best for them.

I have no issue with somebody disagreeing with the law but I really can't see a reason to get worked up about it since the vast majority of Thais don't and most believe in the law. However, I can surely understand a Thai being upset about somebody breaking the law as much as I would be upset about somebody disrespecting my mother, father or family.

+ 1

[SteeleJoe]

...

A lot of us know about the book that basically trashes the royal family here. It's not a particularly well written or well researched book.

...

In that regard, it's a bit like Private Dancer or even The Da Vinci Code...

Still, I am dusting off my copy for a refreshing re-read on the patio this evening.

No offense but methinks you either haven't read the book or aren't very knowledgeable about it.

[spectrumisgreen]

forbidding something just gives me more urges to do it ...

Good thinking! This isn't your mum telling you not too eat too much apple pie or you'll get stomach ache.. this is being told to keep your mouth shut or go to prison... (kao jai, mai?)

[dressedingreen]

The person in question made the mistake of publishing certain material, offensive to localized taste and law, on his blog, while remaining in the country where there are laws that can be ranged against him for doing so. I'm guessing he knew the risk, but felt it was worth taking, to exercise his perceived right to say what he felt about the subject. That is the sum total of this story. But forums usually broaden the base and extrapolate the threads. So in writing to the broader subject, sniping at a culture from the sidelines has never proved a viable way of changing it. Engaging in a dialogue that offers mutual respect has historically been the more productive way, except maybe the use of force, or sanctions that encourage the appreciation of enlightened self interest. One cannot address these subjects in isolation. To pick out one aspect of an entire culture, and suggest it should be changed, blurs the myriad strands that interconnect to sustain any cultural identity. Asian systems of governance will naturally evolve over time. One of the most important aspects of change is the way it is managed. Consider, for example, the decision to retain the Emperor Hirohito, following the Japanese defeat at the end of WW2. The American government understood how damaging it would be to Japanese national unity if the Emperor had been removed. Thus making the country far more difficult to govern. So moving too quickly has its disadvantages. Asia is already in the midst of tremendous change. People are uncomfortable with change at a fast pace. They feel far more comfortable, and therefore safe to engage with the process, if certain high profile 'landmarks' are still visible during this period. Many regimes have fallen because the pace of change was too fast, and too many comfortable institutions were abolished at the beginning of the process. Managed change, enhanced educational support, and a constant dialogue with the people is the way to move a culture forward. And a supportive and non-judgmental approach, by those who have made the journey before them, is hugely beneficial.

I constantly read, on these web pages, about corruption, duplicity, racism, xenophobia, inappropriate laws, cronyism, bad behaviour, ineptitude, etc; the implication being these things don't happen in western countries. Those of us who emanate from the west know better. The whole financial debacle of 2007/8 suggests a financial elite, based almost exclusively in western capitals, showed little concern for the effect of their actions on the lives of ordinary people. Blatant racism is still a living memory in most western countries. Cronyism in government, and between government and private industry, is still grist to the mill in western civilization. The wholesale purchase of political power, by organized crime, in eastern Europe, and in the blurred boundary between eastern and western Europe, between Canada and north America, between Mexico and north American border states, belies the idea that western culture is corruption free. And are Mexicans in the USA, Africans in southern Europe, even Poles in the United Kingdom, met without xenophobia?

Ultimately, why are we, as expats, here in Asia, rather than enjoying the comfort of our perfect societies? Could it just be the weather? I'd argue there has to be much more than that to lure us from our own idea of paradise. And are the reasons we are here a good example to those we would influence with our ideals of right and wrong? Or are we simply play acting 'ain't it awful', as we did before we made the journey? Perhaps if we pretend to bite off the hand that feeds us (euphemistically speaking), 'they' will feel we're only here as missionaries, not because we prefer to be so.

Ultimately, respect cannot be forced. There is no such thing as freedom, or freedom of speech. These things are all relative. As people from another culture, we see things those who have lived here all their lives do not see. And the same applies to those who visit our 'home' cultures from 'abroad'. But let's not get carried away with the idea we know better. We know differently. Change is inevitable. But be careful what you wish for. Change is almost never restricted to that which we would like to desist.

DIG

[surangw]

my comment would be what we are all thinking, but not posting

[RKASA]

my comment would be what we are all thinking, but not posting

Let me charge you with silent insubordination then. You can run but you can't hide.

[leebeeUK]

It shows why we allow discussion of the LM laws, but not a discussion of the Royal Family itself. Keep that in mind when posting.

We are all guests in this country. We must respect the rules and laws of the host country whether we agree or not.

It is better to be safe and free than to be sorry and in jail... unless one enjoys fish head soup 2 times a day, every day.

:jap:

Safe and free? You define freedom in much the same way as many of our beloved African despots... none incarceration=freedom

Respect the rules and laws?? So, I guess we never go to topless bars or ever pay for a little sexual favour or two, right?? Because, we are visitors here, and it is against the law to participate in all that stuff... right?

It was a link to a book, let's keep some perspective here.

You're missing the point!! You're clinging to the rights or wrongs debate.. all very noble, but once things reach a certain point, ie, YOU ARE THREATENED with jail, (just as if someone threatens you in the street with a gun or knife!) then its not about 'perspective' or saying 'Oh but you are so wrong to do this, and I'll tell you for why...' its about knowing you ARE in a NO-WIN situation, and therefore using your noddle to stay 'free and safe' as mentioned above.. the only true and relevant perspective being to understand when that point of there no point trying to debate the 'issue' any more is upon you (Best course of action='better safe than very very (very?)sorry').. please see my quote, below, to see where I'm 'coming from' if my viewpoint isn't clear enough...

Edited May 27, 2011 by leebeeUK

[Nisa]

Can you imagine someone being thrown in jail for calling the president names or accusing him of crimes? NO

This place is so so 14th century dumb.

As far as I am aware there is no law in Thailand preventing anyone from saying or writing what they want about Abhisit (presidential equivalent) except laws that also apply in other countries such as slander or libel.

The problem is it is very difficult to find an equivalent comparison in terms of the love and reverence the vast majority of Thais feel towards His Majesty and the institution. What you may see as backwards or outdated, the Thais hold in great esteem in terms of being proud, unique and representative of the greatness of Thailand. His Majesty (past and present) is somebody who can always be trusted to look after Thailand and its people as well as be above all the pettiness that we see in politics all over the world. The only way to really relate even remotely to this is to consider how a parent looks after and protects their children and those children having an unconditional love and trust that their parent(s) will always protect them and never lead them down the wrong path. The King is the father of Thailand and its people as is the Queen the mother.

Edited May 27, 2011 by Nisa

[Nisa]

my comment would be what we are all thinking, but not posting

or maybe we are all posting without much thinking

[CWMcMurray]

Respect has to be earned

But the Buddhist perspective has is that to be afforded respect is a fundamental human right. As is the dignity of all life. Sometimes we really ought to try and understand things from a perspective outside of our own culturally determined ones. :jap:

If that were truly the case, then the law would state that anyone who fails to show respect to any other person would be guilty and thrown in Jail... but that is not what LM are about.

I think it is a fundamental difference in thinking, as in the west it is ingrained in all, that the more powerful or public a person is, the more rights the people should have to question them, their actions and their motives. It is believed that this is truly needed in order to prevent those in power from abusing their power. It is believed that a truly free press is the ultimate 'check and balance'.

In Thailand it seems that the exact opposite is true, the system seems to be in place to protect the powerful and the more powerful a person is, the less right you have to question them publicly. This is not just in reference to LM laws, but also slander and defamation laws.

I believe that in the present time, we in Thailand are very lucky and with or without the LM laws, I very much doubt that anyone would truly wish to criticize or show disrespect to the current royal family. This being said, LM laws do not say say that it is only illegal to show disrespect or criticize if the current king and monarchy are "good" and I think that this is why most westerners do not like the very thought of such laws.

If for example, in the far distant future or past or in a parallel universe, if anyone associated with the monarchy ever happened to do something wrong.... most westerners believe that the people and the press should have the fundamental right to mention what happened it and call the wrong doer into account without fear of being thrown in Jail.

[dharmabm]

although i always get a chuckle out of reading these threads, i try to avoid posting any opinions, as someone once said "opinions are like <deleted>, everyone's got one and they all stink". but i have to make 2 points about the current discussion:

the original article says ""He translated articles which are deemed insulting to the monarchy and posted them on his blog. Also he provided a link to a book" "

so the person in question did not unknowingly allow a post to his blog to go unmoderated, he (or someone in his organization) TRANSLATED the offensive remarks, presumably from english to thai. so read the story before you start spouting your garbage.

secondly, while i do firmly believe in freedom of speech, every government in the world puts limits on what this entails. i believe in the USA the analogy has always been "shouting fire in a crowded movie theatre is not protected speech" (assuming of course that there is no fire).

</rant>

[andyko]

These laws will change eventually, it is absolutely inevitable.

That`s the truth, and it probably will happen quicker than we expect. We also should remember that historically we`re in fact last minute free speakers.

[CWMcMurray]

The problem is it is very difficult to find an equivalent comparison in terms of the love and reverence the vast majority of Thais feel towards His Majesty and the institution. What you may see as backwards or outdated, the Thais hold in great esteem in terms of being proud, unique and representative of the greatness of Thailand. His Majesty (past and present) is somebody who can always be trusted to look after Thailand and its people as well as be above all the pettiness that we see in politics all over the world. The only way to really relate even remotely to this is to consider how a parent looks after and protects their children and those children having an unconditional love and trust that their parent(s) will always protect them and never lead them down the wrong path. The King is the father of Thailand and its people as is the Queen the mother.

I think what you have stated above is absolutely correct, but the very fact that it is true makes the current LM laws even less needed.

Any person who truly criticized or disrespected the King would be insane... there is no need to throw them in Jail or to censor their words, the Thai people themselves would ostracize the person if the comments they made truly disrespected the King.

[dressedingreen]

No institution, person or gathering, of whatever persuasion, is exactly as they are perceived from the outside. And all powerful people and institutions have a vested interest in protecting themselves from those who would subvert their mystique. History is littered with fallen angels.

DIG

[khaowong1]

Did anybody READ the story? The story says he is a Thai. Sure he has gained American nationality, but it's not like we are talking about an American expat or tourist here: "Joe is a 54 year old resident of Nakhon Ratchasima Province. He is Thai by birth but has lived in Colarado, America for 30 years."

Anyway, if you are running a forum you really need to watch it closely and moderate when needed.

'IF" he is an American than he is an American the same as any American who was born here or whose parent's parent's parent;s were born in the US. Point being is there are no levels of being an American in terms of being held in another country. Fox News will eat a story like this up if true. However you make a valid point and the story should say "Thai American" as the assumption is he is an expat or tourist when in fact there was nothing really in the story (that I recall) that actually said he obtained American Citizenship. Just because he lived in Colorado for 30-years doesn't mean he became a citizen. I believe lots of people stay in America legally for very long periods but never become actual citizens.

Many....

[andyko]

Not only in Holland. Don`t worry, there must be The Ministry of the Truth who keeps the copy and read it instead of you. Pay the tax and don`t think too much

Insult ?

When you are in a pet shop, zoo or in the wild, and a parrot calls you dirty names... you are angry at the parrot ?

I am happy to live in the Netherlands (EU) , where you are allowed to make jokes about everybody. Really everybody.

Last convinction because of Lese majestic: Domela Nieuwenhuis in 1887 for a half year jail. Released after a few days.

European Court for Human Rights in 1992: members of a governments ( we do not speak anymore about the King/Queen ) should be able to absorb more critics as normal people. And with this, end of discussion.

In Holland Hitler's Neon Kampf is still forbidden. You cannot sell it and I think you're not even allowed to have it. This is just plain stupid if you simply want to get insight in the psyche of one of history's biggest maniacs. True, Holland is still a very liberal country. It used to be Europe's safe haven for centuries for people with other ideas, religions and backgrounds. The last visit of the Pope was in the early eighties, a short visit as he was simply chased away by public opinion. The cynical pop hit Popi Jopi was the icing on the cake. Now Holland is considered a lost church province by Rome.

Wasn't there an LM case in Holland in the nineties by the way? I think they closed the case before it went to court but i am not sure.

Edited May 27, 2011 by andyko

[sbk]

Discussion of moderation action removed. Please use the report button for posts that need to be edited and I highly recommend reading not only the forum rules but also forum netiquette.

[maxman71]

A couple of thoughts come to mind..."I know NUSSINK!!!" (with kind regards to Sgt. Schultz from Hogan's Heroes...and now I have a better idea of the origins of those adorable "3 Monkey" figurines prominent in SE Asian trinket shops...

[wlcart]

HUMAN RIGHTS!

That Jefferson guy said it well,

"all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights"

no one should be thrown in jail for expressing their thoughts.

grow up!