Thai Politicians Are Out To Exploit Farmers

[Arkady]

so farmers get 11.000 baht per 1000 kg = 11 baht per kilo gram

so why we pay 10 to 20x more in tesco ?

thanks to the middle person who wants to pay at least as possible to the farmer, thanks to the miller, thanks to the grosist, thanks to tesco or other middle persons who get rich while the famers keeps on getting near to nothing...

but what I always wonder: if rice farming does not support the overhead cost, why not start to grow something else ???

Bear in mind that what they are talking about here are unmilled paddy prices. A tonne of paddy doesn't usually produce more than half a tonne of milled rice and not all the milled rice is top grade jasmine rice. Are you paying B2,200 a kg in Tesco?

[anterian]

In the past rice farming was labour intensive, people who had little or no land could work in the paddies. Back breaking work though it was, there was at least some money coming in. Now machinery has negated the need for hand planting, and hand reaping, where is the work and income for the labourers? Where do the untrained youth find work in the rural community?

This is the new issue confronting the rural communities.

There are many issues facing rice farmers. In the part of the country where I live, there is only one crop a year. Most of the farmers round here own their own land; it has been in the family for generations, and that is one of the problems. When the parents died, the land was divided between the children. Farms have got smaller and many are not suited for the use of mechanical planters or harvesters. That means at planting and harvesting times, labour has to be bought in, but the farmer also sells his labour to his neighbour. In this way, money is circulated around the community.

One of the issues the farmers' credit card proposal seeks to address is the problem of debt. It is clear that the writer of the OP has not got a clue about how poor farmers have to finance their farms. The farm is most likely mortgaged to the bank through a co-operative in which all members cross guarantee the debts of the other members. That means the farmer is mortgaging his crop, and when the loan is repaid (as it has to be each year), he has to borrow again against next year's crop. When it is needed, additional finance often can only be raised from private lenders (including monks!) who lend short-term and charge very high rates of interest. 5% per month is common. The idea of the credit card is to break the reliance on this type of financing, but it will not lift farmers out of debt on its own.

There is a crisis building in rice farming and in the rural areas. It will not happen for several years and it will come on gradually. It will affect different parts of the country to a greater or lesser degree. Two thirds of 14 year old's surveyed (source:Thai Visa sometime last year)said they would not follow their parents and go into farming. They intend to move to the towns and cities to find work - there are very few non-agricultural jobs in the rural areas. That means there will be a shortage of labour on the farms and a gradual depopulation of the countryside. Couple that with the small size of many farms and the burden of debt and it is easy to see farms becoming derelict and some villages becoming dependent on money sent home by family members working in factories or abroad. So far, these potential social and economic problems have not registered on the political radar.

This is exactly the case, we saw the same pattern in England at the start of the "Industrial Revolution" and in Scotland with the "Enclosures Act". Easter Europe under communism tried to solve the problem by nationalising farms into combines, it failed for many reasons. In Britain farms became privately owned business conglomerates. France still has millions of family farmers, but they are savvy and educated and use their political clout well.

Thailand is at a transition point, it has to choose between a modernised, efficient farming sector or an engineering production base. Some countries have managed to be both, even small countries like Switzerland, I'm not sure that Thailand can because of its culture based on status.

The present adult generation of Thais, and their children, are in for a rough ride.

[whybother]

In Australia, a lot of families with smaller farms sold out to other families or companies generally because they couldn't make a living of it or the children had decide to get off the farm leaving no one to hand it down to. Those families or companies that bought the small farms gave them better economies of scale.

[473geo]

In the past rice farming was labour intensive, people who had little or no land could work in the paddies. Back breaking work though it was, there was at least some money coming in. Now machinery has negated the need for hand planting, and hand reaping, where is the work and income for the labourers? Where do the untrained youth find work in the rural community?

This is the new issue confronting the rural communities.

During the rainy season there is no other way to plant or harvest but by hand. The machines, whether they are planters or harvesters, cannot work in the soft mud. AND when one goes out to the fields during these times one will not find any young people working - they've all left for greener pastures (no pun in tended)....

Methods are changing perhaps not where you are located. There will be areas where machinery cannot go, of the farms in my local area I would say at least 80% (conservative estimate) prepare the land (plough and disc) with tractors just prior to the start of the rainy season. When the time is right they broadcast the rice seeds saved from the previous harvest, the rain arrives (though too much can spoil) and the rice grows. The previous method you speak of is waiting for the rain to arrive and then plant out the part grown plants into the moist earth.(I've done that one) While the second method is actually more reliable, and in fact may bring about a better yield, it would appear that since the arrival of fertiliser, a more concentrated crop can be grown.I agree that if there are wetlands that never really dry around harvest time then machinery is not effective, but I see on many occasions only a small parcel of wet land left to be hand harvested, in fact often these small areas are hand harvested and then thrown into the path of the machine to save time later.

As for the migration to greener pastures, a sad truth, and part of the point I was trying to make. Greener pastures maybe, in monetary terms, but given the choice, how many would prefer to remain in their rural areas if there were reasonable paying employment available, instead of the rural areas becoming one big retirement home subsidised from the youth in the cities.

[473geo]

In Australia, a lot of families with smaller farms sold out to other families or companies generally because they couldn't make a living of it or the children had decide to get off the farm leaving no one to hand it down to. Those families or companies that bought the small farms gave them better economies of scale.

I can well understand the process where a young person migrates to the city to find employment, when the parents die 40 years later the family have little interest, incentive, and do not carry the practical shills to continue the upkeep of the small farm. This is why it is important to maintain the family unit, to have sustainable employment in rural areas. There are many social benefits of keeping the family unit together.

Edited May 29, 2011 by 473geo

[473geo]

In the past rice farming was labour intensive, people who had little or no land could work in the paddies. Back breaking work though it was, there was at least some money coming in. Now machinery has negated the need for hand planting, and hand reaping, where is the work and income for the labourers? Where do the untrained youth find work in the rural community?

This is the new issue confronting the rural communities.

There are many issues facing rice farmers. In the part of the country where I live, there is only one crop a year. Most of the farmers round here own their own land; it has been in the family for generations, and that is one of the problems. When the parents died, the land was divided between the children. Farms have got smaller and many are not suited for the use of mechanical planters or harvesters. That means at planting and harvesting times, labour has to be bought in, but the farmer also sells his labour to his neighbour. In this way, money is circulated around the community.

One of the issues the farmers' credit card proposal seeks to address is the problem of debt. It is clear that the writer of the OP has not got a clue about how poor farmers have to finance their farms. The farm is most likely mortgaged to the bank through a co-operative in which all members cross guarantee the debts of the other members. That means the farmer is mortgaging his crop, and when the loan is repaid (as it has to be each year), he has to borrow again against next year's crop. When it is needed, additional finance often can only be raised from private lenders (including monks!) who lend short-term and charge very high rates of interest. 5% per month is common. The idea of the credit card is to break the reliance on this type of financing, but it will not lift farmers out of debt on its own.

There is a crisis building in rice farming and in the rural areas. It will not happen for several years and it will come on gradually. It will affect different parts of the country to a greater or lesser degree. Two thirds of 14 year old's surveyed (source:Thai Visa sometime last year)said they would not follow their parents and go into farming. They intend to move to the towns and cities to find work - there are very few non-agricultural jobs in the rural areas. That means there will be a shortage of labour on the farms and a gradual depopulation of the countryside. Couple that with the small size of many farms and the burden of debt and it is easy to see farms becoming derelict and some villages becoming dependent on money sent home by family members working in factories or abroad. So far, these potential social and economic problems have not registered on the political radar.

I have commented above and then re-familiarising my self with the thread, re-read you excellent post......a good thoughtful post which shows you have a good grasp and understanding of the financial mechanism in the rural communities. A pleasure to read this post again.

[scorecard]

The policy of encouraging farming of inefficient small holdings was a cornerstone of Thailand's strategy to avoid becoming the next communist domino in the 60s and 70s. Now they can't remember why they have this system which is hopeless economically. PT wants to go back to having the govt buy rice at artificially high prices, including huge quantities smuggled from neighbouring countries. Of course this is a good way for PT politicians to make a huge amount of money from the govt but farmers usually get short changed on the rice pledging and are told they don't meet the conditions fully due to late delivery, excessive moisture etc, etc. Then the rice in the govt warehouses is not accounted for properly and much of it mysteriously disappears.

Apart from the numerous opportunities for corruption and collulsion this brings, there is no inight into the future and (as already mentioned), these policies are totally insustainabale and if the 'prop up' from taxpayers funds continues then development of education and more also suffers, plus even more important we never get to a scenario whereby the rural poor (should be all poor) can gain a good quality of life through their own productivity.

Edited May 29, 2011 by scorecard

[scotbeve]

During the rainy season there is no other way to plant or harvest but by hand. The machines, whether they are planters or harvesters, cannot work in the soft mud.

They work the fields that are totally submerged under water all the time. That's ploughing, planting, harvesting etc. All done with machinery. Under water.

Have you ever been to Thailand??

I have 3 x Kubota DC-60 harvesters - they do not work in the rain - think about it..... If rice farmers with large tracts of rice paddy want to spend 10% - 12% of their profit to repair the fields after using the "monster" harvesters that's fine with them, but due to getting shafted with the rice price year after year, they are trying to minimize their losses. YES! Losses.... (BTW - it's tilling...)

[473geo]

The policy of encouraging farming of inefficient small holdings was a cornerstone of Thailand's strategy to avoid becoming the next communist domino in the 60s and 70s. Now they can't remember why they have this system which is hopeless economically. PT wants to go back to having the govt buy rice at artificially high prices, including huge quantities smuggled from neighbouring countries. Of course this is a good way for PT politicians to make a huge amount of money from the govt but farmers usually get short changed on the rice pledging and are told they don't meet the conditions fully due to late delivery, excessive moisture etc, etc. Then the rice in the govt warehouses is not accounted for properly and much of it mysteriously disappears.

Apart from the numerous opportunities for corruption and collulsion this brings, there is no inight into the future and (as already mentioned), these policies are totally insustainabale and if the 'prop up' from taxpayers funds continues then development of education and more also suffers, plus even more important we never get to a scenario whereby the rural poor (should be all poor) can gain a good quality of life through their own productivity.

If the agriculture is not supported to at least maintain a subsistance level for farmers, there would be no 'rural poor' but 'metropolitan poor' they would all migrate to the cities to find work. and benefit 'through their own productivity'........and we already see where that is leading for the furure of some young people in Thailand.......fodder the sexualy deprived foreigners......most countries subsidise agriculture to maintain a balance.......the alternative is to pour more investement into the regions and provide alternative employment to farming. In the EU through the last few years circa 40% of the EU budget has been poured into agriculture. Try having a look at the treaty of Rome to understand the aim of agricultural subsidies

[TAWP]

....fodder the sexualy deprived foreigners....

Most of the girls living around in the suburb were I live work in the big massage-places that cater to Thai men...

[473geo]

....fodder the sexualy deprived foreigners....

Most of the girls living around in the suburb were I live work in the big massage-places that cater to Thai men...

Yep I guess this creates an even higher total of misfortune for girls following the migration to the cities, sad isn't it, and obviously makes the investment in the Rural areas even more urgent.

[Johpa]

Thailand is at a transition point, it has to choose between a modernised, efficient farming sector or an engineering production base.

Oh please, "efficiency" is merely a code word meaning that the system has been maximized to percolate upwards all profits in the system into the hand of the few. But highly "efficient" systems fall apart when the masses can no longer afford the items they are producing. The people then have to scramble and compete to find jobs "servicing" the elite. Of course the neo-sahibs who have relocated to Thailand really enjoy that aspect of life in this Kingdom.

[anterian]

Thailand is at a transition point, it has to choose between a modernised, efficient farming sector or an engineering production base.

Oh please, "efficiency" is merely a code word meaning that the system has been maximized to percolate upwards all profits in the system into the hand of the few. But highly "efficient" systems fall apart when the masses can no longer afford the items they are producing. The people then have to scramble and compete to find jobs "servicing" the elite. Of course the neo-sahibs who have relocated to Thailand really enjoy that aspect of life in this Kingdom.

I think you are looking in the wrong place, try replacing neo-sahibs with neo-mandarins, or neo-shieks

[trisailer]

I think it's pretty easy to see what the pattern of change is going to be. Migration to the cities (already happening) and mega farms taking over the land to produce food. It's well underway. It will likely follow the same pattern of other industrial revolutions. Smart government will understand that and balance progress between all the people.

The way forward is through education and negotiation with folks at the local level. A lot of the local people don't care what's going on in Bangkok so much as they care about their own communities. Thailand could make a huge leap forward if they can get a grip on the corruption. It's a false economy and it's probably 15 or 20 percent of GDP.

What people want is hope that the next generation will be better off. Farmers have a voice now that they didn't have before and they need to refine it and use it for progress. That can happen with intelligent leadership, but it can be a slow process.

Edited May 29, 2011 by trisailer

[TAWP]

....fodder the sexualy deprived foreigners....

Most of the girls living around in the suburb were I live work in the big massage-places that cater to Thai men...

Yep I guess this creates an even higher total of misfortune for girls following the migration to the cities, sad isn't it, and obviously makes the investment in the Rural areas even more urgent.

Um, why would the fact that they do NOT cater to foreign men create a 'higher total of misfortune'?

[473geo]

....fodder the sexualy deprived foreigners....

Most of the girls living around in the suburb were I live work in the big massage-places that cater to Thai men...

Yep I guess this creates an even higher total of misfortune for girls following the migration to the cities, sad isn't it, and obviously makes the investment in the Rural areas even more urgent.

Um, why would the fact that they do NOT cater to foreign men create a 'higher total of misfortune'?

As you highlighted my comment 'fodder the sexualy deprived foreigners' and you corrected me by adding that......... in your area........

Then stands to reason you have widened my initial comment to include even more examples.......

Hence you have created 'a higher total of misfortune'

Which as I have stated makes addressing the investment in the rural areas an even greater priority

[Ricardo]

The people then have to scramble and compete to find jobs "servicing" the elite. Of course the neo-sahibs who have relocated to Thailand really enjoy that aspect of life in this Kingdom.

You're quite right, I should fire our maid & gardener, who are properly-paid for a job which they're capable of doing, what was I ever thinking, that giving employment to people might in-any-way benefit them too ?

[barrybankruad]

During the rainy season there is no other way to plant or harvest but by hand. The machines, whether they are planters or harvesters, cannot work in the soft mud.

They work the fields that are totally submerged under water all the time. That's ploughing, planting, harvesting etc. All done with machinery. Under water.

Have you ever been to Thailand??

I have 3 x Kubota DC-60 harvesters - they do not work in the rain - think about it..... If rice farmers with large tracts of rice paddy want to spend 10% - 12% of their profit to repair the fields after using the "monster" harvesters that's fine with them, but due to getting shafted with the rice price year after year, they are trying to minimize their losses. YES! Losses.... (BTW - it's tilling...)

Has anyone noticed the amount of land originally planted to rice now being planted with cassava? In my area (lower Buriram) large tracts of land now grow this crop. Not all the land is suitable for cassava growing but that land that is, is being converted on a large scale. I wouldn't be surprised to see that within a few years the amount of rice being grown in this area at least, will drop dramatically. Farmers will only produce sufficient rice for their family needs, the negligible profits from growing rice make it uneconomical. In addition many farmers are planting rubber trees and growing cassava alongside until the trees become mature prior to tapping.

The only problem with this is that the price of cassava delivered to the depot has dropped dramatically. 6 months ago it was over 3000bht a ton whereas yesterday it was only 1700bht a ton. Seems like the middleman is cashing in. It's a no win situation for the peasant farmers in this area.

[Gary A]

The average family farm is about 10 rai. That is approximately 4 acres. That is amount of land that can be worked by the family. Anyone who has spent any time upcountry will not see a lot of mechanized planting or harvesting. Farmers here are not opposed to mechanical harvesting but the people with harvesters are not interested in the small 1 rai rice paddies. The farmers will tell you that scheduling a harvester is a major problem. When the harvester is available, the rice is either too wet or too dry. Too wet means the paddy rice must be dried, too dry means a huge harvesting loss. I was interested in one of the more progressive farmers in our area. He used a row planter to plant his rice. That saves a huge amount of work. Rice is normally scattered and then pulled up and replanted by hand. Last year he was back to hand planting. His machine planted rice did very poorly.

The BIG problem here is simple corruption. The price supports are a huge joke. If you think the farmers get the support price, think again. The farmers get what the middlemen offer. The middlemen get the big profits. Eliminate the corrupt middlemen and the farmers will quit complaining. Easy loan money for the farmers causes many more problems than it solves.

The local sugar cane growers had expected about 1,400 baht per ton and were disappointed to get 800 baht per ton this year. The last offered price was 1,080 baht per ton.

[TAWP]

Yep I guess this creates an even higher total of misfortune for girls following the migration to the cities, sad isn't it, and obviously makes the investment in the Rural areas even more urgent.

Um, why would the fact that they do NOT cater to foreign men create a 'higher total of misfortune'?

As you highlighted my comment 'fodder the sexualy deprived foreigners' and you corrected me by adding that......... in your area........

Then stands to reason you have widened my initial comment to include even more examples.......

Hence you have created 'a higher total of misfortune'

Which as I have stated makes addressing the investment in the rural areas an even greater priority

Ah, what you are saying is that you have no idea how many girls that are in the trade, or the ratio of 'for foreigners vs for Thai' and had in your mind decided that the number X for 'for foreigners' was high and now suddenly you found out that there are a lot of girls catering to Thai men, in the amount of 'Y', and therefor your number you now reached, however unspecified, is higher.

Alright-y then...

[ginjag]

so farmers get 11.000 baht per 1000 kg = 11 baht per kilo gram

so why we pay 10 to 20x more in tesco ?

thanks to the middle person who wants to pay at least as possible to the farmer, thanks to the miller, thanks to the grosist, thanks to tesco or other middle persons who get rich while the famers keeps on getting near to nothing...

but what I always wonder: if rice farming does not support the overhead cost, why not start to grow something else ???

Bear in mind that what they are talking about here are unmilled paddy prices. A tonne of paddy doesn't usually produce more than half a tonne of milled rice and not all the milled rice is top grade jasmine rice. Are you paying B2,200 a kg in Tesco?

Tesco-Udon Thani -my 5 kilo pack of 100 % white rice was 95 bht, yesterday. Work that one out if you want ??

Edited May 30, 2011 by ginjag

[scotbeve]

The average family farm is about 10 rai. That is approximately 4 acres. That is amount of land that can be worked by the family. Anyone who has spent any time upcountry will not see a lot of mechanized planting or harvesting. Farmers here are not opposed to mechanical harvesting but the people with harvesters are not interested in the small 1 rai rice paddies. The farmers will tell you that scheduling a harvester is a major problem. When the harvester is available, the rice is either too wet or too dry. Too wet means the paddy rice must be dried, too dry means a huge harvesting loss. I was interested in one of the more progressive farmers in our area. He used a row planter to plant his rice. That saves a huge amount of work. Rice is normally scattered and then pulled up and replanted by hand. Last year he was back to hand planting. His machine planted rice did very poorly.

The BIG problem here is simple corruption. The price supports are a huge joke. If you think the farmers get the support price, think again. The farmers get what the middlemen offer. The middlemen get the big profits. Eliminate the corrupt middlemen and the farmers will quit complaining. Easy loan money for the farmers causes many more problems than it solves.

The local sugar cane growers had expected about 1,400 baht per ton and were disappointed to get 800 baht per ton this year. The last offered price was 1,080 baht per ton.

Gary,

The way farmers have done business since day dot in regards to cash crops have been in a "lemming-over-the-edge" scenario whereas, when one person plants a lucrative (at the moment) crop, 10 more will follow per day....

Spot on with the corruption schemers - also from day dot.... middlemen make a fortune. Machines are coming more popular with small plot farmers.

[473geo]

Yep I guess this creates an even higher total of misfortune for girls following the migration to the cities, sad isn't it, and obviously makes the investment in the Rural areas even more urgent.

Um, why would the fact that they do NOT cater to foreign men create a 'higher total of misfortune'?

As you highlighted my comment 'fodder the sexualy deprived foreigners' and you corrected me by adding that......... in your area........

Then stands to reason you have widened my initial comment to include even more examples.......

Hence you have created 'a higher total of misfortune'

Which as I have stated makes addressing the investment in the rural areas an even greater priority

Ah, what you are saying is that you have no idea how many girls that are in the trade, or the ratio of 'for foreigners vs for Thai' and had in your mind decided that the number X for 'for foreigners' was high and now suddenly you found out that there are a lot of girls catering to Thai men, in the amount of 'Y', and therefor your number you now reached, however unspecified, is higher.

Alright-y then...

As you wish........ I will not take the topic further off course to sate your desperation to prove somebody wrong......

Edited May 30, 2011 by 473geo

[jimbo38]

I was born and raised on a farm. "Tilling" may be the term you use but it was seldom used in our area. I don't need anyone to try and explain farming terminology to me. I'm 72 years old and most likely was farming before you were born.

The harvesters I see up here only have 6 or 8 foot headers. Hardly "monster" harvesters. You want to see monster harversters go to Australia or the western part of the USA.

.

I am living within feet of rice paddies. They are just finishing the latest harvest right now. It has been raining every single day for the past month. Every paddy has standing water on it. The paved roads are full of chunks of mud brought on to the roads by the harvesters. They continue to harvest during the rainfall.

The paddies that have already been harvested have been flooded and the tractors are in water up to and over their axles rotary hoeing the soil for the next crop. Three years ago there were no mechanical harvesters. This year there are no hand harvesters. If the rice is lodged badly then they do it by hand but the short stemmed rice doesn't lodge so it is all being done by machines.

This year they brought in a couple of transplanting machines. The paddies planted by this method did quite well. I expect to see a lot more of that for this next crop.

Anyway, you can continue to claim that they can't use machinery on wet fields all you want, but the people up here are doing it every day.

So, whatever.

[scotbeve]

Simmer down all....

The Thai male population has got us Khon Dtang Prathet beaten hands down as far as the number of Mia Noi's they have and as much as they Chow-Chu out and about..... Loyalty??? I think NOT!!!!!!

[scotbeve]

I was born and raised on a farm. "Tilling" may be the term you use but it was seldom used in our area. I don't need anyone to try and explain farming terminology to me. I'm 72 years old and most likely was farming before you were born.

The harvesters I see up here only have 6 or 8 foot headers. Hardly "monster" harvesters. You want to see monster harversters go to Australia or the western part of the USA.

.

I am living within feet of rice paddies. They are just finishing the latest harvest right now. It has been raining every single day for the past month. Every paddy has standing water on it. The paved roads are full of chunks of mud brought on to the roads by the harvesters. They continue to harvest during the rainfall.

The paddies that have already been harvested have been flooded and the tractors are in water up to and over their axles rotary hoeing the soil for the next crop. Three years ago there were no mechanical harvesters. This year there are no hand harvesters. If the rice is lodged badly then they do it by hand but the short stemmed rice doesn't lodge so it is all being done by machines.

This year they brought in a couple of transplanting machines. The paddies planted by this method did quite well. I expect to see a lot more of that for this next crop.

Anyway, you can continue to claim that they can't use machinery on wet fields all you want, but the people up here are doing it every day.

So, whatever.

Jimbo,

Fair enough, you have a few (not many years) on me, I've been here a long time (in the north BTW), the tracts of rice farms here are definitely small as compared to tracts in central plains and areas the likes of that. We haven't discussed WHAT rice or what DIFFERENT farm areas there are either, have we? Planting machines are only as good as the operator. We attended a "field trip" with a load of Kubota owners and during one of the promotional "demonstrations" the rice (larger) planter (Kubota) got stuck in the mud... A good chuckle to say the least. "MONSTER" harvesters are meant in a relative term to this country, not Aus. or the US. These are heavy and indeed do a lot of surface damage which is an extra cost (where we live) to "repair". I do not grow rice..... I did a long time ago.... As I stated before, I own 3 x DC-60's and as any other brand of rice harvester, they are not as efficient in he rain as when it is "drier". BTW - Kubota claims more efficient harvesting than the "Monster" harvesters. I've seen it first hand so I will back this claim up... Once again, the proper operator is a key point....