Three British teenagers killed in Thai bus crash

[darhut]

I still don't get why there is no belts on buses.. anywhere in the world?

There are seatbelts on many buses in Thailand, the ones I catch from Nakhon Phanom have them it's just no one wears them. There are also many places around the world that have seat belts on buses. Look next time your on a bus.

[SICHONSTEVE]

You cannot change or influence destiny as it is predetermined so no matter how proactive you are you cannot alter it as it is WHAT happens and what WILL happen regardless of events. Also, you cannot reduce innevitability as if it is inevitable then it WILL happen. There is no, and cannot be an "in between" as it either happens or it doesn't happen and inevitable means it is going to happen!!! If it is impossible for it to happen then you get the other extreme.

Pure psychobabble. Being of a belief in fate, doesn't absolve anyone for respect for others, or give them an excuse to act irresponsibly to those around them, or trying to avoid causing damage to others.

In which case, fatalists shouldn't drive on public roads. I hope they do a bit of psychiatric analysis of whoever they are going to appoint as chief safety officer at the nuclear power stations they intend to use.

What are you on about??? Whats all this about being a believer in fate, business. I am talking about destiny and how you cannot change something that is GOING to happen and have explained that you cannot lessen inevitability as it is either inevitable or won't happen, thats all!!!

Show me just where I mention fate and all that rubbish that you've attributed to me such as giving people an excuse for people to act irresponsibly etc: Are you sure that you've responded to the correct post as I don't recognise anything you purport to in your retort.

[SAffer]

[i think some people are jumping the gun on this one a bit; of course condolences to those directly affected, but to immediately assume the accident is a result of poor driving standards is unfair - for all we know it could have been caused by some other reason like brake failure or swerving to avoid a dog. The driving standards are not good in Thailand, but that doesn't mean that every accident is down to them. Accidents happen unfortunately, and they happen everywhere.

I dont know what country your from, but where I come from we are taught never to swerve for an animal.

Not even for a bull elephant or a 2 ton rhino standing in the road???

That's right, not even for the 10 ton bull elephant. Slow down, stop if you must... but don't swerve. The wild animals often choose flight in these cases and swerving may actually mean going into their path. Now... the original response was to the mentioned case: swerving for a dog, so in this case the same would apply, except, the dog won't cause much damage to the bus, would it?

[delazion]

yes... my condolences to family and friends...

I have lived here for 7 years and i drive everyday in Bangkok - and occassionally up to Chiang mai or Isarn...

The standards of driving and the roads are absolutely and utterly terrible... This may be another Thai bashing - but its justified...

Also... a warning to all travellers booking the bus from Khao sarn road to Chiang mai - and especially the return buses from Chiang mai.

They are all run by the mafia - and very often the drivers are on Ya baa amphetamines...

It is also very common for them to send one into the luggage cargo to steal from the farangs bags during the long trip...

I have seen this with my own eyes on many many occassions over the years, my family have also lost things on the bus from chiang mai

MY ADVISE: plan ahead and stop using all the mafia run coaches... Book the train over night sleeper instead... its safer, really nice to sleep on and doesnt cost much more...

or get a cheap flight with one of the airlines... do not play with the Thai buses that run from Khaosarn road -

or if you do.... dont bring any valuables whatsoever - dont let them leave your body if you do... dont put anything in the underside luggage

if you fall asleep make sure you dont leave it in the over head luggage compartment - My father had his camera stolen when he nodded off...

Again...

Bus accidents are very common here.... we get to hear about them a lot - and Thailand likes to cover up as much as it can - so statistically there are a lot more than we get to hear about...

[Thaddeus]

You cannot change or influence destiny as it is predetermined so no matter how proactive you are you cannot alter it as it is WHAT happens and what WILL happen regardless of events. Also, you cannot reduce innevitability as if it is inevitable then it WILL happen. There is no, and cannot be an "in between" as it either happens or it doesn't happen and inevitable means it is going to happen!!! If it is impossible for it to happen then you get the other extreme.

Pure psychobabble. Being of a belief in fate, doesn't absolve anyone for respect for others, or give them an excuse to act irresponsibly to those around them, or trying to avoid causing damage to others.

In which case, fatalists shouldn't drive on public roads. I hope they do a bit of psychiatric analysis of whoever they are going to appoint as chief safety officer at the nuclear power stations they intend to use.

What are you on about??? Whats all this about being a believer in fate, business. I am talking about destiny and how you cannot change something that is GOING to happen and have explained that you cannot lessen inevitability as it is either inevitable or won't happen, thats all!!!

I'm curious, please explain the difference between fate and destiny.

RIP to those poor boys.

[Card]

You cannot change or influence destiny as it is predetermined so no matter how proactive you are you cannot alter it as it is WHAT happens and what WILL happen regardless of events. Also, you cannot reduce innevitability as if it is inevitable then it WILL happen. There is no, and cannot be an "in between" as it either happens or it doesn't happen and inevitable means it is going to happen!!! If it is impossible for it to happen then you get the other extreme.

Pure psychobabble. Being of a belief in fate, doesn't absolve anyone for respect for others, or give them an excuse to act irresponsibly to those around them, or trying to avoid causing damage to others.

In which case, fatalists shouldn't drive on public roads. I hope they do a bit of psychiatric analysis of whoever they are going to appoint as chief safety officer at the nuclear power stations they intend to use.

What are you on about??? Whats all this about being a believer in fate, business. I am talking about destiny and how you cannot change something that is GOING to happen and have explained that you cannot lessen inevitability as it is either inevitable or won't happen, thats all!!!

Show me just where I mention fate and all that rubbish that you've attributed to me such as giving people an excuse for people to act irresponsibly etc: Are you sure that you've responded to the correct post as I don't recognise anything you purport to in your retort.

I think you should take your tablets and have a lie down. I see you have some problems with discussions.

[Honolulu]

Anyone know what happened to the Thai driver? He must have got killed too, huh?

[Digitalbanana]

[i think some people are jumping the gun on this one a bit......but to immediately assume the accident is a result of poor driving standards is unfair - for all we know it could have been caused by some other reason like brake failure or swerving to avoid a dog. The driving standards are not good in Thailand, but that doesn't mean that every accident is down to them. Accidents happen unfortunately, and they happen everywhere.

Accidents would happen everywhere if based on your logic. On what planet in the cosmos is swerving to avoid a dog not considered poor driving standard?

[SICHONSTEVE]

Do you seriously believe that education is the answer???? Try telling smokers, heavy drinkers and drug addicts that smoking and these other vices are damaging their body. Will they stop on account of you educating them - hardly likely!!! If they decide that they WANT to give these things up then you stand a chance.

Now you try telling Thai drivers that it is inherently dangerous if they drive fast or overtake on blind corners or not to take into account the prevailing weather conditions by driving accordingly, do you honestly believe that they are going to become model drivers after your "pearls of wisdom". Neither do I, I'm afraid (excuse me for answering for you) but there is really only one answer to consider here.

It is one part of the answer. Try watching drivers from the US go round a roundabout. They have no clue, because they have never been taught. Training is all part of learning to operate a piece of machinery, even more so, when one considers that operating a car involves being around every one else. Operating a JCB in isolation involves largely only hurting yourself.

Thai's are not bad drivers. They control a car as well as anyone else. If they couldn't there would be thousands of crashes a day in Sukhumvit alone. The issue is that there is no unified training of the rules and regulations, so that on the vast majority, there is no unified way to maneouver a car from A to B. There is a reason why people are taught not to overtake on blind corners, uphill, in front of schools, over humpback bridges etc. This is because it has been proven to be extremely risky, and without training, people do not instinctively understand the risk. This is what education is for.

In the days before driving tests and proper rules, roads where chaos.

I don't expect people to become model drivers overnight, but look at how wearing seatbelts, wearing bike helmets whilst prone to initial resistance, eventually become accepted. These laws save lives. If you show 1000 people the risks of driving in a certain way, after a day 1 may change, after 2 days, maybe 2. To believe that it is impossible to change anyone's behaviour simply because it is hard to do, means we all may as well give up. As for smoking, percentages are way down, but then it is physically addictive, and largely only inflicts harm on oneself. Driving involves potentially killing others and is thus a far more serious issue.

I wouldn't expect to be allowed to pilot a 747 without passing a test and would expect to continue to do so if I flouted the rule. Why should it be any different with a car?

How's about this. Maximum speed limit in the country, all with speed governers on every vehicle. Maximum speed 30kph. Watch the death statistics drop like a stone. So if people want to drive at 110, this is why they need to be trained and policed properly.

You've packed a lot in here!!! Educating someone is not the same as training them. Educating means imparting knowledge to another person so that they understand something better as a consequence whereas training is showing somebody how to do something essentially (I just made those up) so it is purely my take on what they represent.

I just believe that dangerous driving (driving in a way that endangers your own or other peoples lives) is so engrained in their minds that it is not something that can be changed through educational means. They must realise that driving fast and doing all the dangerous things I mentioned is not wise and leads to accidents but they carry on doing it as this is the norm for them, so simply pointing out to them what they know already is not going to change their driving habits one iota.

I'm not sure about how serious you are in your final statement referring to implementing speed limits. This is a non goer really as it is totally impractical - I don't think that journeys taking three times as long as normal would go down too well with the people. Overtaking might be an issue as well, as being stuck on the other side of the road overtaking someone traveling at speed could be a problem if the speed limiter kicks in with the other car in the distance being not so far in the distance and getting bigger by the second and the car you are overtaking not giving an inch. I'm pretty sure that this is not a serious suggestion but even if you lowered the speed limit from 100 to 80 Km/hour people would not drive more slowly - guaranteed, as it ain't their way.

Thai drivers just want to get to their destination as quick as possible as it seems to be an obsession of theirs to do so. I'd venture to say that its a challenge (often with fatal consequences) to race as fast as they can weaving in and out of the traffic testing their driving prowess.

Now if you really intended to make the roads safer they could start by enforcing 2 things seemingly unique to Thai's driving pracises and that would be to impose substantial fines (for Thai's) upon riding bikes and driving cars the wrong way up the road and to make it an offence to overtake someone on the inside. Successfuly implement thyese 2 things and then I'm convinced that the accident rates would fall substantially. What other civilised country allows these 2 practises to be exercised so is it any wonder that it is such a serious hazard driving in Thailand!!

[SICHONSTEVE]

You cannot change or influence destiny as it is predetermined so no matter how proactive you are you cannot alter it as it is WHAT happens and what WILL happen regardless of events. Also, you cannot reduce innevitability as if it is inevitable then it WILL happen. There is no, and cannot be an "in between" as it either happens or it doesn't happen and inevitable means it is going to happen!!! If it is impossible for it to happen then you get the other extreme.

Pure psychobabble. Being of a belief in fate, doesn't absolve anyone for respect for others, or give them an excuse to act irresponsibly to those around them, or trying to avoid causing damage to others.

In which case, fatalists shouldn't drive on public roads. I hope they do a bit of psychiatric analysis of whoever they are going to appoint as chief safety officer at the nuclear power stations they intend to use.

What are you on about??? Whats all this about being a believer in fate, business. I am talking about destiny and how you cannot change something that is GOING to happen and have explained that you cannot lessen inevitability as it is either inevitable or won't happen, thats all!!!

Show me just where I mention fate and all that rubbish that you've attributed to me such as giving people an excuse for people to act irresponsibly etc: Are you sure that you've responded to the correct post as I don't recognise anything you purport to in your retort.

I think you should take your tablets and have a lie down. I see you have some problems with discussions.

It does make it kind of difficult when you are dicussing something different, I agree that much!!!

[SICHONSTEVE]

I think we have to admit that driving standards here are pretty bad, especially on the country roads.<br>I see the most dangerous manouvers on a daily basis, the classics are overtaking in unsafe conditions e.g. on a blind hill or a blind bend, drunk driving, racing pickups fully loaded up with goods, speeding through small villages driving long hours on some kind of wake up drug.<br>There is a general lack of care and "fingers crossed" in tight situations where normally one would proceed with caution.<br>The cheaper buses are usually some of the worst offenders, speeding and dangerous overtaking are the norm.<br>The government needs to bring in a licensing system for bus drivers where they are licensed and regularly checked as in the western countries.<br>

In the actual article it dosn't once mention that the driver of the bus was on the wrong side of the road...maybe it was the driver of the bus coming from the other direction that was at fault...who knows...also the road from Bangkok to Chang Mai is not mountainous with loads of twists and bends it is The A1 the main road from Bangkok to Chang Mai which is nearly all straight 3 laned. But saying that, the last time I used it was for a visa run to maesot and back and the road between Kampaneg Phet and Tak was a total disgrace, pot holes and bumps where the tarmac had raisen/melted due to the heat from the sun every where, certain bits of the road the tarmac had been dug up in prepartion of laying a new road but no doubt they had run out of money has the road was the same on several journeys along it...I witnessed buses and lorries with 2 trailors all driving at speed down the motorbike lanes to avoid the bumps and the holes in the road.

.

I totally agree with what bobmac says above regarding the village roads...I used to have a 150cc Yamaha VR ( ex-police bike ) and it had some speed on it and would keep up with any of the pickups but I'm glad I got rid of it...I have a honda 125cc wave now and even driving that is dangerous on the village roads...the times I have had to pull into the verge with my wife and 10 yr old step daughter is unbelivable....the road behind me will be clear and instead of waiting for me to pass ( literally seconds ) they always seem to overtake as I am approaching or level with the car, pickup, lorry etc in front of them....they have no consideration for motorbikes whatsoever....another one is when i'm driving down the A1 to and from the local big town...there are several u turn's....and alot of drivers doing the u-turns cannot/do not judge the speed of motorbike's and the times I have had to brake hard has they have pulled out to do the u-turn and ended up in the motorbike lane are again too many to count.

Another time a thai friend visited me and we ended up having a drink..small bottle of hong tong....he then he decided to take me to a karokee bar where his bit on the side worked..we ended up ordering a large bottle of hong tonk...with food...we drank half of that bottle and it was nearly dark 6.30 - 7pm time so I asked him to take me to nearest town so i could get a motorbike taxi home...he was all red faced ( typical thai when they have had a drink and trust me Thais cannot hold their drink ) ..anyways got to the nearest town no motorbike taxis and the backroad to my home is about 8 miles with no street lights except for a couple of villages...has we strarted driving down it he was all over the place..so I told him to pull over and i would drive...he was having none of it so i thought seatbelt time..........there is a quite a long straight bit of road from 1 viallge to another but this road is used by sugarcane lorries and there are a lot of potholes and no white lines in middle of road...as we where driving down it I saw 2 other cars/pickups coming towards us at speed and thought we are to close to the middle of the road here...has we and the oncoming pickups got nearer and nearer I thought we going to have a head on here...looked at my freind and i think he was transfixed by the oncoming lights...anyway just has we where about to meet I grabbed the steering wheel and pulled it left...BANG...if I hadn't of done it I don't thing I would be here now....his right front wheel popped and he had a big scratch down the side of his car he drove another 500 - 700 yards before the car stopped the 2 pickups had also stopped...but like i say they where 500-700 yards away...after checking car my friend decided to carry on....he tried this 3 times and each time i had to slam on the hand brake otherwise we would have ended down the side of the road ditch..told him the car was not going no where but he was having none of it...kept saying to me " Are you are with me on this " meaning when and if police come that I back him..I said " i will speak the truth...that the road was dark..no white lines and both cars could not see the middle of the road until it was too late"....10 - 15 minutes later 2 policemen came on a motorbike, one stayed with the car the other took my friend to the pickups....i then remembered we still had 1/2 a bottle of hong tonk under my seat..so i got back in the car and pretended to use my mobile and while the policeman wasn't looking threw the bottle into the verge....after 20 -30 mintutes the policeman brought my friend back him and the 2 police spoke to each other then the police left...no breathalysier nothing...I couldn't believe it....couple of minutes later a breakdown lorrie arrived to take my friends car back to the police compoundard...we where in the middle of nowhere about 4 miles from my home so asked the pickup driver if he would drop us off...his answer 300 baht...i said i could get to bangkok for that....300 baht or you walk home..no cars will stop on this road he said..ok I said i will pay the 300 baht...my friend was then rummaging about the car i said what are you doing he said looking for the whiskey..told him I had thrown it in the verge..he went and got it and we got in the breakdown van..i sat in the back he sat in front in with the driver...couldn't believe it when he started to share the remainder of he whiskey with the driver....AMAZING THAILAND.

RIP to the 3 English Lads and condolenses to all their families and hope the 4th lad in hospital is not injured that bad and makes a speedy recovery.

Several people seem to have their facts wrong. There was NO HEAD-ON collision and no accident resulting from overtaking. The bus in question was bumped from behind, almost certainly the result of tail-gating.

It seems that there is a mistake between 2 accidents. One of these involved an overtaking mistake and a bus hit a lorry and several people were killed. No mention there of any tourists involved as far as I recall and it was reported in the Thai press about a week ago. I believe this is not the same one and i cannot find any reference to this current crash being reported in the Thai media.

What facts???? These are not OUR facts.

Those "several people" are simply posting on the report featured in the topic. We are not all detectives that must verify every story first before we comment on it. What should we do - ring the police to check that the newspaper or source of the story has got THEIR facts correct and if they haven't, take notes on their inaccuracies and produce a true case version of our own.

Why should we believe your version any way as every thing you write seems to be pretty much baseless or groundless!!!!

[Thai at Heart]

Do you seriously believe that education is the answer???? Try telling smokers, heavy drinkers and drug addicts that smoking and these other vices are damaging their body. Will they stop on account of you educating them - hardly likely!!! If they decide that they WANT to give these things up then you stand a chance.

Now you try telling Thai drivers that it is inherently dangerous if they drive fast or overtake on blind corners or not to take into account the prevailing weather conditions by driving accordingly, do you honestly believe that they are going to become model drivers after your "pearls of wisdom". Neither do I, I'm afraid (excuse me for answering for you) but there is really only one answer to consider here.

It is one part of the answer. Try watching drivers from the US go round a roundabout. They have no clue, because they have never been taught. Training is all part of learning to operate a piece of machinery, even more so, when one considers that operating a car involves being around every one else. Operating a JCB in isolation involves largely only hurting yourself.

Thai's are not bad drivers. They control a car as well as anyone else. If they couldn't there would be thousands of crashes a day in Sukhumvit alone. The issue is that there is no unified training of the rules and regulations, so that on the vast majority, there is no unified way to maneouver a car from A to B. There is a reason why people are taught not to overtake on blind corners, uphill, in front of schools, over humpback bridges etc. This is because it has been proven to be extremely risky, and without training, people do not instinctively understand the risk. This is what education is for.

In the days before driving tests and proper rules, roads where chaos.

I don't expect people to become model drivers overnight, but look at how wearing seatbelts, wearing bike helmets whilst prone to initial resistance, eventually become accepted. These laws save lives. If you show 1000 people the risks of driving in a certain way, after a day 1 may change, after 2 days, maybe 2. To believe that it is impossible to change anyone's behaviour simply because it is hard to do, means we all may as well give up. As for smoking, percentages are way down, but then it is physically addictive, and largely only inflicts harm on oneself. Driving involves potentially killing others and is thus a far more serious issue.

I wouldn't expect to be allowed to pilot a 747 without passing a test and would expect to continue to do so if I flouted the rule. Why should it be any different with a car?

How's about this. Maximum speed limit in the country, all with speed governers on every vehicle. Maximum speed 30kph. Watch the death statistics drop like a stone. So if people want to drive at 110, this is why they need to be trained and policed properly.

You've packed a lot in here!!! Educating someone is not the same as training them. Educating means imparting knowledge to another person so that they understand something better as a consequence whereas training is showing somebody how to do something essentially (I just made those up) so it is purely my take on what they represent.

I just believe that dangerous driving (driving in a way that endangers your own or other peoples lives) is so engrained in their minds that it is not something that can be changed through educational means. They must realise that driving fast and doing all the dangerous things I mentioned is not wise and leads to accidents but they carry on doing it as this is the norm for them, so simply pointing out to them what they know already is not going to change their driving habits one iota.

I'm not sure about how serious you are in your final statement referring to implementing speed limits. This is a non goer really as it is totally impractical - I don't think that journeys taking three times as long as normal would go down too well with the people. Overtaking might be an issue as well, as being stuck on the other side of the road overtaking someone traveling at speed could be a problem if the speed limiter kicks in with the other car in the distance being not so far in the distance and getting bigger by the second and the car you are overtaking not giving an inch. I'm pretty sure that this is not a serious suggestion but even if you lowered the speed limit from 100 to 80 Km/hour people would not drive more slowly - guaranteed, as it ain't their way.

Thai drivers just want to get to their destination as quick as possible as it seems to be an obsession of theirs to do so. I'd venture to say that its a challenge (often with fatal consequences) to race as fast as they can weaving in and out of the traffic testing their driving prowess.

Now if you really intended to make the roads safer they could start by enforcing 2 things seemingly unique to Thai's driving pracises and that would be to impose substantial fines (for Thai's) upon riding bikes and driving cars the wrong way up the road and to make it an offence to overtake someone on the inside. Successfuly implement thyese 2 things and then I'm convinced that the accident rates would fall substantially. What other civilised country allows these 2 practises to be exercised so is it any wonder that it is such a serious hazard driving in Thailand!!

On the basis that virtually no one over the age of 35 has had any formal driving training, I think you underestimate how effective it may be.

[Card]

I think we have to admit that driving standards here are pretty bad, especially on the country roads.<br>I see the most dangerous manouvers on a daily basis, the classics are overtaking in unsafe conditions e.g. on a blind hill or a blind bend, drunk driving, racing pickups fully loaded up with goods, speeding through small villages driving long hours on some kind of wake up drug.<br>There is a general lack of care and "fingers crossed" in tight situations where normally one would proceed with caution.<br>The cheaper buses are usually some of the worst offenders, speeding and dangerous overtaking are the norm.<br>The government needs to bring in a licensing system for bus drivers where they are licensed and regularly checked as in the western countries.<br>

In the actual article it dosn't once mention that the driver of the bus was on the wrong side of the road...maybe it was the driver of the bus coming from the other direction that was at fault...who knows...also the road from Bangkok to Chang Mai is not mountainous with loads of twists and bends it is The A1 the main road from Bangkok to Chang Mai which is nearly all straight 3 laned. But saying that, the last time I used it was for a visa run to maesot and back and the road between Kampaneg Phet and Tak was a total disgrace, pot holes and bumps where the tarmac had raisen/melted due to the heat from the sun every where, certain bits of the road the tarmac had been dug up in prepartion of laying a new road but no doubt they had run out of money has the road was the same on several journeys along it...I witnessed buses and lorries with 2 trailors all driving at speed down the motorbike lanes to avoid the bumps and the holes in the road.

.

I totally agree with what bobmac says above regarding the village roads...I used to have a 150cc Yamaha VR ( ex-police bike ) and it had some speed on it and would keep up with any of the pickups but I'm glad I got rid of it...I have a honda 125cc wave now and even driving that is dangerous on the village roads...the times I have had to pull into the verge with my wife and 10 yr old step daughter is unbelivable....the road behind me will be clear and instead of waiting for me to pass ( literally seconds ) they always seem to overtake as I am approaching or level with the car, pickup, lorry etc in front of them....they have no consideration for motorbikes whatsoever....another one is when i'm driving down the A1 to and from the local big town...there are several u turn's....and alot of drivers doing the u-turns cannot/do not judge the speed of motorbike's and the times I have had to brake hard has they have pulled out to do the u-turn and ended up in the motorbike lane are again too many to count.

Another time a thai friend visited me and we ended up having a drink..small bottle of hong tong....he then he decided to take me to a karokee bar where his bit on the side worked..we ended up ordering a large bottle of hong tonk...with food...we drank half of that bottle and it was nearly dark 6.30 - 7pm time so I asked him to take me to nearest town so i could get a motorbike taxi home...he was all red faced ( typical thai when they have had a drink and trust me Thais cannot hold their drink ) ..anyways got to the nearest town no motorbike taxis and the backroad to my home is about 8 miles with no street lights except for a couple of villages...has we strarted driving down it he was all over the place..so I told him to pull over and i would drive...he was having none of it so i thought seatbelt time..........there is a quite a long straight bit of road from 1 viallge to another but this road is used by sugarcane lorries and there are a lot of potholes and no white lines in middle of road...as we where driving down it I saw 2 other cars/pickups coming towards us at speed and thought we are to close to the middle of the road here...has we and the oncoming pickups got nearer and nearer I thought we going to have a head on here...looked at my freind and i think he was transfixed by the oncoming lights...anyway just has we where about to meet I grabbed the steering wheel and pulled it left...BANG...if I hadn't of done it I don't thing I would be here now....his right front wheel popped and he had a big scratch down the side of his car he drove another 500 - 700 yards before the car stopped the 2 pickups had also stopped...but like i say they where 500-700 yards away...after checking car my friend decided to carry on....he tried this 3 times and each time i had to slam on the hand brake otherwise we would have ended down the side of the road ditch..told him the car was not going no where but he was having none of it...kept saying to me " Are you are with me on this " meaning when and if police come that I back him..I said " i will speak the truth...that the road was dark..no white lines and both cars could not see the middle of the road until it was too late"....10 - 15 minutes later 2 policemen came on a motorbike, one stayed with the car the other took my friend to the pickups....i then remembered we still had 1/2 a bottle of hong tonk under my seat..so i got back in the car and pretended to use my mobile and while the policeman wasn't looking threw the bottle into the verge....after 20 -30 mintutes the policeman brought my friend back him and the 2 police spoke to each other then the police left...no breathalysier nothing...I couldn't believe it....couple of minutes later a breakdown lorrie arrived to take my friends car back to the police compoundard...we where in the middle of nowhere about 4 miles from my home so asked the pickup driver if he would drop us off...his answer 300 baht...i said i could get to bangkok for that....300 baht or you walk home..no cars will stop on this road he said..ok I said i will pay the 300 baht...my friend was then rummaging about the car i said what are you doing he said looking for the whiskey..told him I had thrown it in the verge..he went and got it and we got in the breakdown van..i sat in the back he sat in front in with the driver...couldn't believe it when he started to share the remainder of he whiskey with the driver....AMAZING THAILAND.

RIP to the 3 English Lads and condolenses to all their families and hope the 4th lad in hospital is not injured that bad and makes a speedy recovery.

Several people seem to have their facts wrong. There was NO HEAD-ON collision and no accident resulting from overtaking. The bus in question was bumped from behind, almost certainly the result of tail-gating.

It seems that there is a mistake between 2 accidents. One of these involved an overtaking mistake and a bus hit a lorry and several people were killed. No mention there of any tourists involved as far as I recall and it was reported in the Thai press about a week ago. I believe this is not the same one and i cannot find any reference to this current crash being reported in the Thai media.

What facts???? These are not OUR facts.

Those "several people" are simply posting on the report featured in the topic. We are not all detectives that must verify every story first before we comment on it. What should we do - ring the police to check that the newspaper or source of the story has got THEIR facts correct and if they haven't, take notes on their inaccuracies and produce a true case version of our own.

Why should we believe your version any way as every thing you write seems to be pretty much baseless or groundless!!!!

Read the newspaper reports again.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Do you seriously believe that education is the answer???? Try telling smokers, heavy drinkers and drug addicts that smoking and these other vices are damaging their body. Will they stop on account of you educating them - hardly likely!!! If they decide that they WANT to give these things up then you stand a chance.

Now you try telling Thai drivers that it is inherently dangerous if they drive fast or overtake on blind corners or not to take into account the prevailing weather conditions by driving accordingly, do you honestly believe that they are going to become model drivers after your "pearls of wisdom". Neither do I, I'm afraid (excuse me for answering for you) but there is really only one answer to consider here.

It is one part of the answer. Try watching drivers from the US go round a roundabout. They have no clue, because they have never been taught. Training is all part of learning to operate a piece of machinery, even more so, when one considers that operating a car involves being around every one else. Operating a JCB in isolation involves largely only hurting yourself.

Thai's are not bad drivers. They control a car as well as anyone else. If they couldn't there would be thousands of crashes a day in Sukhumvit alone. The issue is that there is no unified training of the rules and regulations, so that on the vast majority, there is no unified way to maneouver a car from A to B. There is a reason why people are taught not to overtake on blind corners, uphill, in front of schools, over humpback bridges etc. This is because it has been proven to be extremely risky, and without training, people do not instinctively understand the risk. This is what education is for.

In the days before driving tests and proper rules, roads where chaos.

I don't expect people to become model drivers overnight, but look at how wearing seatbelts, wearing bike helmets whilst prone to initial resistance, eventually become accepted. These laws save lives. If you show 1000 people the risks of driving in a certain way, after a day 1 may change, after 2 days, maybe 2. To believe that it is impossible to change anyone's behaviour simply because it is hard to do, means we all may as well give up. As for smoking, percentages are way down, but then it is physically addictive, and largely only inflicts harm on oneself. Driving involves potentially killing others and is thus a far more serious issue.

I wouldn't expect to be allowed to pilot a 747 without passing a test and would expect to continue to do so if I flouted the rule. Why should it be any different with a car?

How's about this. Maximum speed limit in the country, all with speed governers on every vehicle. Maximum speed 30kph. Watch the death statistics drop like a stone. So if people want to drive at 110, this is why they need to be trained and policed properly.

You've packed a lot in here!!! Educating someone is not the same as training them. Educating means imparting knowledge to another person so that they understand something better as a consequence whereas training is showing somebody how to do something essentially (I just made those up) so it is purely my take on what they represent.

I just believe that dangerous driving (driving in a way that endangers your own or other peoples lives) is so engrained in their minds that it is not something that can be changed through educational means. They must realise that driving fast and doing all the dangerous things I mentioned is not wise and leads to accidents but they carry on doing it as this is the norm for them, so simply pointing out to them what they know already is not going to change their driving habits one iota.

I'm not sure about how serious you are in your final statement referring to implementing speed limits. This is a non goer really as it is totally impractical - I don't think that journeys taking three times as long as normal would go down too well with the people. Overtaking might be an issue as well, as being stuck on the other side of the road overtaking someone traveling at speed could be a problem if the speed limiter kicks in with the other car in the distance being not so far in the distance and getting bigger by the second and the car you are overtaking not giving an inch. I'm pretty sure that this is not a serious suggestion but even if you lowered the speed limit from 100 to 80 Km/hour people would not drive more slowly - guaranteed, as it ain't their way.

Thai drivers just want to get to their destination as quick as possible as it seems to be an obsession of theirs to do so. I'd venture to say that its a challenge (often with fatal consequences) to race as fast as they can weaving in and out of the traffic testing their driving prowess.

Now if you really intended to make the roads safer they could start by enforcing 2 things seemingly unique to Thai's driving pracises and that would be to impose substantial fines (for Thai's) upon riding bikes and driving cars the wrong way up the road and to make it an offence to overtake someone on the inside. Successfuly implement thyese 2 things and then I'm convinced that the accident rates would fall substantially. What other civilised country allows these 2 practises to be exercised so is it any wonder that it is such a serious hazard driving in Thailand!!

On the basis that virtually no one over the age of 35 has had any formal driving training, I think you underestimate how effective it may be.

It is not their driving ability that is in question. It is HOW they choose to drive that is the problem. If you think that you can re-educate someone how to drive better by totally altering the way they drive (and have been driving for 20, 30 or 40 years then you are clearly deluding yourself!!! On these grounds alone, I don't hesitate to stick with my version of events over yours and am not convinced by your arguments at all as you keep on harping back to training which is entirely the wrong issue. Education is not the most effective solution either and I believe that the only way to improve matters is outlaw those 2 practises that I mentioned before and ENFORCE them rigidly by penalising heavily those people that refuse to abide by those laws.

Perhaps the fines could go to compensating the families of those innocents/unfortunates that have lost their lives through the dangerous and wreckless actions of those selfish drivers that kill or maim people on the roads.

[SICHONSTEVE]

Several people seem to have their facts wrong. There was NO HEAD-ON collision and no accident resulting from overtaking. The bus in question was bumped from behind, almost certainly the result of tail-gating.

It seems that there is a mistake between 2 accidents. One of these involved an overtaking mistake and a bus hit a lorry and several people were killed. No mention there of any tourists involved as far as I recall and it was reported in the Thai press about a week ago. I believe this is not the same one and i cannot find any reference to this current crash being reported in the Thai media.

What facts???? These are not OUR facts.

Those "several people" are simply posting on the report featured in the topic. We are not all detectives that must verify every story first before we comment on it. What should we do - ring the police to check that the newspaper or source of the story has got THEIR facts correct and if they haven't, take notes on their inaccuracies and produce a true case version of our own.

Why should we believe your version any way as every thing you write seems to be pretty much baseless or groundless!!!!

Read the newspaper reports again.

I have done. The BBC report (not a newspaper) at the start of this topic say's that the 3 died when their coach was involved in a head on crash with another bus. The second report confirms it was the same crash whereby the 3 British nationals died. So what's your point.......!!!!! Perplexed!!

[boggle]

I still don't get why there is no belts on buses.. anywhere in the world?

Today a bus crash south of Perth School kids. Some cut with glass but nothing serious. ALL wearing seat belts.

[ableguy]

RIP to those poor guys who asked nothing but to spend good time vacation and end up because of probably stupid driving behavior,over speed most probably and a total lack of driving knowledge by the drivers ...it happen all the time and will never end ,until the government act quickly. Drivers should get proper instruction ,its crazy in some countries you have to spend fortune in driving schools and here you just buy your license without knowing that a van , a car or a bus are weapons for those who dont know how to use them properly. nothing will ever change here and poor people will continue to die because of such incompetence.

Good post but it has been said by farangs a thousand times before, bit naive thinking the government will or could do anything to alter things it is the very core fabric of society that needs changing, cannot see that changing period.

[Briggsy]

Odds are it was a bus operating privately and outside of the official government concession. Their safety standards are much lower. Always catch a government concession bus (with a number) if possible.

The Thai press did not report it as they rely on the police as their main and initial source of information in cases like this. Thus, if the police do not release a statement or hold a press conference, the story doesn't get into the press.

[ableguy]

[i think some people are jumping the gun on this one a bit; of course condolences to those directly affected, but to immediately assume the accident is a result of poor driving standards is unfair - for all we know it could have been caused by some other reason like brake failure or swerving to avoid a dog. The driving standards are not good in Thailand, but that doesn't mean that every accident is down to them. Accidents happen unfortunately, and they happen everywhere.

My friend buses crashing in Thailand is a daily occurance, of course accidents happen but of the two ( if two drivers ) are involved the chances are very high that neither of them ever had any training and if the bus driver survives he will have run away. FACT

[peteralex]

once again to any tourists coming to Thailand and doing alot of travelling , just remember travelling on the roads in Thailand is amongst the most dangerous in the world, Go somewhere else if you can

What are you talikg about??

'Go somewhere else if you can"

When you don't comprehend the words as written, just read them over and over again until you got it.

[SICHONSTEVE]

once again to any tourists coming to Thailand and doing alot of travelling , just remember travelling on the roads in Thailand is amongst the most dangerous in the world, Go somewhere else if you can

What are you talikg about??

'Go somewhere else if you can"

When you don't comprehend the words as written, just read them over and over again until you got it.

Which words are we supposed to be reading???

[SICHONSTEVE]

[i think some people are jumping the gun on this one a bit; of course condolences to those directly affected, but to immediately assume the accident is a result of poor driving standards is unfair - for all we know it could have been caused by some other reason like brake failure or swerving to avoid a dog. The driving standards are not good in Thailand, but that doesn't mean that every accident is down to them. Accidents happen unfortunately, and they happen everywhere.

My friend buses crashing in Thailand is a daily occurance, of course accidents happen but of the two ( if two drivers ) are involved the chances are very high that neither of them ever had any training and if the bus driver survives he will have run away. FACT

What twaddle!!!

[lubbkis]

I still don't get why there is no belts on buses.. anywhere in the world?

You are misinformed. Most distance private hire buses in Europe, including the UK, have passenger seat belts.

This news is all over the press in the UK since last night. Many you "backpackers" in Thailand are between school and uni and on their way to Oz. Thailand is a remaining cheap destination on this trail as political unrest and other factors are holding prices down whilst neighbouring Malaysia, Singapore and Hong Kong look too expensive to stay long.

[SICHONSTEVE]

I still don't get why there is no belts on buses.. anywhere in the world?

Today a bus crash south of Perth School kids. Some cut with glass but nothing serious. ALL wearing seat belts.

Scotland or Australia???

[zabaleta]

once again to any tourists coming to Thailand and doing alot of travelling , just remember travelling on the roads in Thailand is amongst the most dangerous in the world, Go somewhere else if you can

What are you talikg about??

'Go somewhere else if you can"

No matter how sad the situation, for some people, before all else, it's just another opportunity to bash Thailand. Accidents happen everywhere in the world.

It's especially sad when it's young people on what was probably an exciting adventure for them, but things like this could just as easily have happened if they remained in UK.

I love that "Thai bashing" this is one case where Thailand ranks very highly "road deaths" get a life, get real they, need bashing on this!!!!

firstly,RIP to the young lads and condolences to their families.

now,if thailand didn't give so many opportunities for itself to get bashed,it wouldn't get bashed!!

the place has got potential to be a great country,but,sadly,it isn't fulfiiling that potential at this present time.

before the thailand defenders come out and say..well if you don't like the place go home...i have already,but will be back if it does get it's house in order...i'm not holding my breath though!!

[rich54321]

Another very sad report - Was the bus overtaking, was the driver just too tired or was the bus in not very good condition - like some are - terrible!!!

[Card]

Several people seem to have their facts wrong. There was NO HEAD-ON collision and no accident resulting from overtaking. The bus in question was bumped from behind, almost certainly the result of tail-gating.

It seems that there is a mistake between 2 accidents. One of these involved an overtaking mistake and a bus hit a lorry and several people were killed. No mention there of any tourists involved as far as I recall and it was reported in the Thai press about a week ago. I believe this is not the same one and i cannot find any reference to this current crash being reported in the Thai media.

What facts???? These are not OUR facts.

Those "several people" are simply posting on the report featured in the topic. We are not all detectives that must verify every story first before we comment on it. What should we do - ring the police to check that the newspaper or source of the story has got THEIR facts correct and if they haven't, take notes on their inaccuracies and produce a true case version of our own.

Why should we believe your version any way as every thing you write seems to be pretty much baseless or groundless!!!!

Read the newspaper reports again.

I have done. The BBC report (not a newspaper) at the start of this topic say's that the 3 died when their coach was involved in a head on crash with another bus. The second report confirms it was the same crash whereby the 3 British nationals died. So what's your point.......!!!!! Perplexed!!

OK, then read the original BBC report again, or those of other online newspapers, not the Thaivisa transcripts. Go to the original BBC report and stop being a silly billy. It reads:

"Their coach was in collision with another bus in Khlong Khlung, in the Kamphaeng Phet Province, on Tuesday." Thaivisa added 'head on' for people like u. It makes it simpler to comprehend.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Card

[peter48]

The deaths of these three lovely lads is getting a large amount of coverage here in the UK and rightly so As Sky news says today " Thailand's roads are known to be home to some of the most horrific crashes - with thousands of fatal accidents involving buses each year. So Thailand what are you going to do about it?

Tourists have to travel around the country; demand all bus/coach/minibus drivers have proper driving instruction & tests; ensure the safety belts are always worn ; make it mandatory in multiple passenger vehicles! The UK embassy / Foreign Office whatever need to remind our young innocent folk - that the roads of Thailand are bad and accidents are very frequent including the motorcycle carnage ( everyone who lives in Thailand knows many people who have such accidents)

[MILT]

I have been reading here a lot and, unfortunately, all too often, the worst is assumed by most people. It is worse than back-seat driving or divan refereeing during a game. First, the only things known are what the reporters report. Then, these reportes are described here as less than "informative" and so on. Then, criticism about whatever can be conjured up about Thailand, drivers, laws, social norms and so on. It seems that, here, people writing really do not like Thailand. There seems to be blinders on such that, if it is not like back home (which it really is, if thought about icarefully, as people from all over the world die in accidents in England, Austrailia and the US as well as other nations in the entire world, which are not mentioned here at all). Unfortunately, the bias is all to clear and comments such as "go anywhere else you can [but not to Thailand]" are more demeaning to Thailand that I am grieviously disturbed. I would like to read more thoughtful comments rather than visceral reactions. There is too little analysis. I am going to do a little research on a few things, if I can, and put this in real perspective for people here so that they will be able to "get a grip" on reality about home as well as about Thailand.

[/quote]

Yes I would have to agree with you 100% Anyse. Also the driving has improved and anyone living in Chiangmai before there were stop lights (for an example) can attest to this. I'm not disputing some of the reality's of some drivers in this country. I started driving in 1994 and I can tell you things have improved quite a bit. If one compares Thai driving to let's say India driving or nepal or China, or Hong Kong, or Mexico, central America, Thailand beats them all in my opinion.May they all rest in peace

Edited July 1, 2011 by MILT

[SICHONSTEVE]

Those "several people" are simply posting on the report featured in the topic. We are not all detectives that must verify every story first before we comment on it. What should we do - ring the police to check that the newspaper or source of the story has got THEIR facts correct and if they haven't, take notes on their inaccuracies and produce a true case version of our own.

I have done. The BBC report (not a newspaper) at the start of this topic say's that the 3 died when their coach was involved in a head on crash with another bus. The second report confirms it was the same crash whereby the 3 British nationals died. So what's your point.......!!!!! Perplexed!!

OK, then read the original BBC report again, or those of other online newspapers, not the Thaivisa transcripts. Go to the original BBC report and stop being a silly billy. It reads:

"Their coach was in collision with another bus in Khlong Khlung, in the Kamphaeng Phet Province, on Tuesday." Thaivisa added 'head on' for people like u. It makes it simpler to comprehend.

My comments ARE based on the Thaivisa transcripts and I can't be bothered to read online newspapers despite your insistance that I should. That's cleared up hopefully!!! Right so I'm basing my comments on the Thaivisa forum transcripts - are you still with me or must I elaborate more?? The transcripts say it was a head on collision so as far as I am aware (remember I haven't read the online newspapers) that is what it was as based on the information at hand to me, so my comments relate to just that report.

My name is not Billy and I'm not silly by the way.