Thailand's Democrats Seek Ban On Thaksin Party

[rixalex]

I'm surprised that this article hasn't garnered more attention here. If the Constitutional Court agrees with the complaint, new elections will be held. Won't that be fun?

Chamlong seeks to nullify Sunday's vote

People's Alliance for Democracy leader Chamlong Srimuang on Friday petitioned for the Constitution Court to intervene and nullify the Sunday's vote.

Chamlong lodged his petition via the Office of Ombudsman, citing the Election Commission's confusing rules as ground to cancel the balloting outcome.

Along with some two million voters, he and his wife showed up at their designated polling station in Bangkok but were denied a chance to cast vote.

-- The Nation 2011-07-08

This is what i assume hammered you were referring to earlier in your questioning why the Dems were taking up the case when it had already been by Chamlong. The cases are completely different.

[473geo]

No. They will feel indebted to the party and blame the evil company owners, shophouse owners, middlemen whatever for putting up prices. Every other government only ever gave them a pittance of 1-2 baht. Of course it will be remembered. Even Thaksins opponents know the policies are going to cement the poor, and if he gets into the graduate starting salary, middle classes to him and his party.

So what are you saying? The people are too stupid to understand what's happening? That's success of a sort, propaganda success.

Unless of course you have it wrong Jing and actually a minimum wage rise would not be a major catalyst for inflation........

[rixalex]

I dont think the establishment will want to see an even bigger PTP majority so lets forget new elections

Who cares what the establishment wants or doesn't want to see? This is about following the law. What results from that will be what it will be.

[jdinasia]

It is naive to think that wage hikes and inflation will be considered at the same time by any group of people that don't understand basic economics. (That can be here in Thailand or in Greece!)

Some Thaksin supporters still think that Thaksin paid for things out of his own pocket and not government coffers .... they won't blame inflation on the basic pay raises, they'll blame it on something else. (Probably the opposition )

[evanson]

I am no fan of this new government too - and we all know what their real motives are...

But they won - and they really should be given a chance without being cock blocked by the dems...

Whats best for Thailand now?

Maybe the current gov is really bad - But a military coup or a repeat of last years 'bangkok burning' is far worse...

Let them have their power.... let the poor people have their say...

Afterall the dems never won in the last 20 years - and for whatever reasons that is, its still a fact that they just dont know how to please ALL the people, only the educated ones...

+ 1

[hammered]

No. They will feel indebted to the party and blame the evil company owners, shophouse owners, middlemen whatever for putting up prices. Every other government only ever gave them a pittance of 1-2 baht. Of course it will be remembered. Even Thaksins opponents know the policies are going to cement the poor, and if he gets into the graduate starting salary, middle classes to him and his party.

So what are you saying? The people are too stupid to understand what's happening? That's success of a sort, propaganda success.

No people appreciate those who do something for them. Didnt the BoT the other day say the 300 baht minimum wage was not a worry? Im sure those employing slave labour wouldnt agree with them

[Jingthing]

It's basic economics, so any economist would say it usually would do so. Of course, the risk of it being a burden increase with the actual plan, the actual numbers and speed of it. Raising wages works smoothly when the quality level of human capital is raised FIRST. To put this harshly, Thailand's poor should be thinking more about improving the lives of their CHILDREN than themselves, because any artificial quick fixes are not only not going to help their children, they are going to backfire on themselves, as they aren't based on actual sustainable real wealth (higher skill levels).

[hammered]

I dont think the establishment will want to see an even bigger PTP majority so lets forget new elections

Who cares what the establishment wants or doesn't want to see? This is about following the law. What results from that will be what it will be.

That is an analysis that few who follow Thai politics would agree with including many many of Thakins opponents

[Jingthing]

No people appreciate those who do something for them. Didnt the BoT the other day say the 300 baht minimum wage was not a worry? Im sure those employing slave labour wouldnt agree with them

Good point above slave labor. Many Thai employers will of course literally hire slave labor (Cambodians/Burmese) and fire their Thais as being unrealistically overvalued.

[DumFarang]

I am no fan of this new government too - and we all know what their real motives are...

But they won - and they really should be given a chance without being cock blocked by the dems...

Whats best for Thailand now?

Maybe the current gov is really bad - But a military coup or a repeat of last years 'bangkok burning' is far worse...

Let them have their power.... let the poor people have their say...

Afterall the dems never won in the last 20 years - and for whatever reasons that is, its still a fact that they just dont know how to please ALL the people, only the educated ones...

You think Thaksin is all about poor people having their say? That's amusing.

He is all about the poor having their say. Just as long as they say what he wants to hear, and he thinks it all sounds pretty good about now.

Not about Thaksin, the people have voted and had their say, they voted knowing thaksin was involved......they had their say...........

Are they now to be denied by the political manouvres of people they chose NOT to run their country?

And, whether they know what's good for them or not, are they to be run by people who couldn't come by their victory without committing electoral fraud without any repercussions?

[noahvail]

No. They will feel indebted to the party and blame the evil company owners, shophouse owners, middlemen whatever for putting up prices. Every other government only ever gave them a pittance of 1-2 baht. Of course it will be remembered. Even Thaksins opponents know the policies are going to cement the poor, and if he gets into the graduate starting salary, middle classes to him and his party.

So what are you saying? The people are too stupid to understand what's happening? That's success of a sort, propaganda success.

No people appreciate those who do something for them. Didnt the BoT the other day say the 300 baht minimum wage was not a worry? Im sure those employing slave labour wouldnt agree with them

No, the BoT didn't say that. The PTP said the increase could be achieved as early as January. The BoT said such an increase must be done in incremental steps, and if that was done, it would have a minimal effect on inflation. We can reasonable take from that, that a one-shot increase to 300 baht/day will have an adverse effect on inflation. From MCOT:

"Meanwhile, Mathee Supapongse, director of the Bank of Thailand (BoT) Domestic Economy Department, cautioned that the wage rise of Bt300 at one time may be difficult, but the policy may be gradually implemented as it needs approval from a tripartite committee, combining the government, employers and employees.

Mr Mathee said that such a wage increase would have only a slight impact on inflation."

http://www.mcot.net/cfcustom/cache_page/234237.html

[DumFarang]

I am no fan of this new government too - and we all know what their real motives are...

But they won - and they really should be given a chance without being cock blocked by the dems...

Whats best for Thailand now?

Maybe the current gov is really bad - But a military coup or a repeat of last years 'bangkok burning' is far worse...

Let them have their power.... let the poor people have their say...

Afterall the dems never won in the last 20 years - and for whatever reasons that is, its still a fact that they just dont know how to please ALL the people, only the educated ones...

Don't forget that only 48% of the voters voted for PTP, So the other 52% of the voters that did not vote for the PTP should not have justice if the PTP broke the law? Everyone must abide by the rule of law in a democracy even if they won 95% of the popular vote. Otherwise what is the point in having a democracy. This is something all parties need to understand, and they need to lead the country by example.

Yep. If they want to show the Thai people that they can carry them into the future they should have started by winning an election where the Dems could not prove that they couldn't come by it without bending and breaking the rules. I don't know what could be more obvious. I can't even think of an example, because it's just so obvious.

[DumFarang]

Not about Thaksin, the people have voted and had their say, they voted knowing thaksin was involved......they had their say...........

Are they now to be denied by the political manouvres of people they chose NOT to run their country?

If they are denied it won't be because of "the people they chose NOT to run their country", it will be because PTP broke electoral law.

If you commit a crime do you turn around and point the finger of blame at the person who spotted you commit it? This is the idea you are promoting.

Well put. I tried to say that, but couldn't think of such a good example.

[hammered]

No people appreciate those who do something for them. Didnt the BoT the other day say the 300 baht minimum wage was not a worry? Im sure those employing slave labour wouldnt agree with them

Good point above slave labor. Many Thai employers will of course literally hire slave labor (Cambodians/Burmese) and fire their Thais as being unrealistically overvalued.

It is already happening across swathes of the country where Thai workers wont work for minimum wage. Maybe 300 is just recognizing this fact, and trying to reverse the trend of foreign workers. To get a foreign worker you need to show Thais wont work for your wage (minimum wage). Then again most Burmese get at least minimum wage too. In Chonburi many Burmese are already on well over 200 a day (minimum is 192), and many Thai workers on daily wage make over 400. No doubt Chonburi will continue to see burmese workers given work permits, but in other places?

[DumFarang]

Legitimate? If the judiciary were neutral, which they are not (yet),

What's your proof for that? They found Thaksin guilty so they can't possibly be neutral? They refused the 2 million baht bribe his lawyers offered on his behalf, so they must be biased?

You telling me someone refused a bribe in Thailand, I think this should be a cover story in itself, did he say "No" or "I cant because to many people are watching." This makes better news.

Thais don't even refuse bribes when it doesn't even count as a bribe b/c they don't plan on honoring it.

[evanson]

It's basic economics, so any economist would say it usually would do so. Of course, the risk of it being a burden increase with the actual plan, the actual numbers and speed of it. Raising wages works smoothly when the quality level of human capital is raised FIRST. To put this harshly, Thailand's poor should be thinking more about improving the lives of their CHILDREN than themselves, because any artificial quick fixes are not only not going to help their children, they are going to backfire on themselves, as they aren't based on actual sustainable real wealth (higher skill levels).

Agreed. But here we are presented with the many and varied cultural differences between the farang work ethic and the Thai mindset.

As I have been told many times by Thais of my acquaintance (including my erstwhile Thai language teacher), THEIR goal is that THEIR CHILDREN NEVER HAVE TO WORK FOR A LIVING. Fact.

Edited July 9, 2011 by evanson

[rixalex]

I dont think the establishment will want to see an even bigger PTP majority so lets forget new elections

Who cares what the establishment wants or doesn't want to see? This is about following the law. What results from that will be what it will be.

That is an analysis that few who follow Thai politics would agree with including many many of Thakins opponents

It's not an analysis of the situation, it's my opinion. I don't think law being applied or not, should have anything to do how it effects the establishment. My opinion.

[Ricardo]

Yes, it does seem very strange to me that it is fine to hand out cash for votes, in so far as every party does it and no one get pulled over the coals for it - yet it specifically says in the election rules that they can't serve food - <deleted>?

Handing out cash is illegal and anybody caught will be banned/disqualified. As is serving alcohol, and any other form of gift.

Quite, and it's safe to assume that many of the cases, which the E.C. are currently considering, will be for vote-buying like this. There will be some red-cards handed-out, also some yellow-cards (allowing the offender to re-run), and some by-elections in the constituencies affected.

Going by previous elections, offenders will probably include PTP, Democrats and other parties. No double-standards !

This is all normal, part of the E.C. trying to encourage politicians to be more-honest, or at least less-blatant, and is a helpful step in the direction of cleaning-up Thai politics.

[DumFarang]

It's basic economics, so any economist would say it usually would do so. Of course, the risk of it being a burden increase with the actual plan, the actual numbers and speed of it. Raising wages works smoothly when the quality level of human capital is raised FIRST. To put this harshly, Thailand's poor should be thinking more about improving the lives of their CHILDREN than themselves, because any artificial quick fixes are not only not going to help their children, they are going to backfire on themselves, as they aren't based on actual sustainable real wealth (higher skill levels).

I understand your view from the standpoint of pure logic, but in the real world a wage increase has to happen sometime, and it has to be across the board. It's never going to be a case where a bunch of skilled workers show up just in time to accept a wage increase. An improvement in skill level must come along with a wage increase, but you have to break a few eggs, especially on a national scale. Some people with few skills will benefit just as well as some people with better skills. But, with effort toward equality it will level out and gradually the vast majority will have fairly equal skill sets.

I understand the need for a minimum wage on a national level, but to be honest I own a restaurant and my staff don't get the same salaries. Some are simply more valuable than others even if their skill sets overlap. I pay the ones who shine more money b/c they're eager and smart and they take on more responsibility without me having to look over their shoulders like a parent. Some people might think it sounds unfair, but it's not to me. The ones I pay more are more valuable to me. I reward effort and positive results. I guess my staff work in a free market!

[hammered]

I dont think the establishment will want to see an even bigger PTP majority so lets forget new elections

Who cares what the establishment wants or doesn't want to see? This is about following the law. What results from that will be what it will be.

That is an analysis that few who follow Thai politics would agree with including many many of Thakins opponents

It's not an analysis of the situation, it's my opinion. I don't think law being applied or not, should have anything to do how it effects the establishment. My opinion.

I commend you on such an attitude.

[jdinasia]

Yes, it does seem very strange to me that it is fine to hand out cash for votes, in so far as every party does it and no one get pulled over the coals for it - yet it specifically says in the election rules that they can't serve food - <deleted>?

Handing out cash is illegal and anybody caught will be banned/disqualified. As is serving alcohol, and any other form of gift.

Quite, and it's safe to assume that many of the cases, which the E.C. are currently considering, will be for vote-buying like this. There will be some red-cards handed-out, also some yellow-cards (allowing the offender to re-run), and some by-elections in the constituencies affected.

Going by previous elections, offenders will probably include PTP, Democrats and other parties. No double-standards !

This is all normal, part of the E.C. trying to encourage politicians to be more-honest, or at least less-blatant, and is a helpful step in the direction of cleaning-up Thai politics.

The only time that I know of vote-buying hitting a whole party was when the PPP executive was caught on film making a payoff ---- red and yellow cards have happened across the board. This thread is about Thaksin

[DumFarang]

No people appreciate those who do something for them. Didnt the BoT the other day say the 300 baht minimum wage was not a worry? Im sure those employing slave labour wouldnt agree with them

Good point above slave labor. Many Thai employers will of course literally hire slave labor (Cambodians/Burmese) and fire their Thais as being unrealistically overvalued.

I'm not sure where you're getting Burmese being slave labor from (I only know one Cambodian working here btw). There are still a lot of kinks in the system, but they have to get cards now to work legally, and immigration does put forth an effort to check and catch the undocumented ones. The Burmese get paid a bit less than the Thais on average, but it's far from slave labor. The salaries are comparable, at least I can say that for where I live, and there are several thousand Burmese workers milling around here, and a few are in my employ making the same wage I offer Thais. The difference is the Burmese roll up their sleeves and get to work, and the Thais complain about not having most of the day free to lay around sniffing menthol.

[Oberkommando]

Not read through the thread but I think we all know the dangers of removing this government by a coup or through the courts.

Perhaps if the politicians and governments would stop breaking the frigging laws, we might not suffer from those dangers you speak of. Does it not occur to you that that is where the problem lies?

But it proves one thing: reconciliation was never on the agenda for the Dems.

Reconciliation?

PTP should have run without Thaksin calling all the shots. They might have lost some votes, but they probably still would have won most seats. Temptation was too great for them though, to throw him into the package. They knew he was banned. But what the hey they thought. Let's win this darn thing and then use the electoral mandate to blast through these pesky laws. Nobody will dare challenge us then. But they have. How rude of the Dems.

The problem is more a cultural one, not a political, governmental or even legal one as you suggest. But it is what it is and we have to deal with that rather than foolish notions of 'justice' and the 'rule of law'.

Dems have been equally guilty of ignoring laws when it suits don't forget.

[rubl]

Legitimate? If the judiciary were neutral, which they are not (yet),

What's your proof for that? They found Thaksin guilty so they can't possibly be neutral? They refused the 2 million baht bribe his lawyers offered on his behalf, so they must be biased?

You telling me someone refused a bribe in Thailand, I think this should be a cover story in itself, did he say "No" or "I cant because to many people are watching." This makes better news.

Old news, very old news, do pay attention please

2008-06-25 Thailand jails Thaksin lawyers in "snack box" case

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/06/25/uk-thailand-thaksin-lawyers-idUKBKK26086720080625

(edit: add: this was when we had the late k. Samak as PM with PPP)

Edited July 9, 2011 by rubl

[rubl]

The problem is more a cultural one, not a political, governmental or even legal one as you suggest. But it is what it is and we have to deal with that rather than foolish notions of 'justice' and the 'rule of law'.

Dems have been equally guilty of ignoring laws when it suits don't forget.

Foolish notions of 'justice' and 'rule of law' :blink:

[OzMick]

Here's where you may be wrong. Sure PTP will fail to some degree, either moderately or massively. That's a given as the promises they have made are basically both contradictory and impossible. Cut corporate taxes/a house for every Thai family, what are they smoking? But what happens AFTER that happens? Another relative fair election, or, as many fear/expect a situation where the Thaksin dynasty after being scorned so rudely, will now have "learned their lesson" and won't let go of power for perhaps many decades? In other words, how many people seriously believe Thaksin is about reconciliation, democracy, and no revenge?

Of course there is also the possibility that PT actually succeed in the majority of their aims and (unlike the Abhisit government) are voted in again at the next election, because of their delivery and performance.............they have been underestimated so many times I'm surprised that the usual critics are falling into the same old trap again.....

If they deliver on the minimum wage alone, that is something that wont be forgotten for years and will overshadow anything anyone else has ever done in the eyes of the poor

You sound as simple as the fiscal genii of PTP. 6 months later inflation will have put those still in work back to the same position, and the ones fired might even get their jobs back.

[rixalex]

The problem is more a cultural one, not a political, governmental or even legal one as you suggest. But it is what it is and we have to deal with that rather than foolish notions of 'justice' and the 'rule of law'.

It's not a foolish notion, it's a presently unattainable notion... doesn't mean we stop striving for it. Giving in and saying that's the way it is and it will never change, is a sure enough way to guarantee that it indeed never does.

Dems have been equally guilty of ignoring laws when it suits don't forget.

Haven't forgotten. All for the book being thrown at them when guilty too.

What a strange defence.

[rubl]

The other newspaper has a newsflash that Ms. Yingluck said neither her older brother Thaksin nor any of the 111 banned TRT executives had been involved in her party. She said Pheu Thai had working teams to sort out policies to settle pressing problems.

The flash didn't mention whether Ms. Yingluck was smiling or not, grave omission IMHO

[OzMick]

If they deliver on the minimum wage alone, that is something that wont be forgotten for years and will overshadow anything anyone else has ever done in the eyes of the poor

Again, totally naive. Raise the minimum wage too quickly, too much (which is their promise) then pretty much guaranteed you get higher unemployment (which some feel) and higher inflation (which the poor feel more severely than any other group). You see the labor force in Thailand is a very low productivity workforce so the economic fundamentals to justify much of a wage hike for the unskilled simply doesn't exist. So if the poor feel just as poor or even worse, do you think they are so stupid not to realize they weren't helped? Maybe so. But that is only one of many promises.

Another thing to keep in mind, a massive portion of the poor Thai workforce is off the grid of ANY wages. You know, like the guys who sell meat sticks of a cart. No wage increase for them, just higher inflation. Happy times.

The guy selling meat sticks sees everyone else has more cash, so he raises his prices. The guy with the wage has more baht, but everything is more expensive. Inflation.

[OzMick]

If they deliver on the minimum wage alone, that is something that wont be forgotten for years and will overshadow anything anyone else has ever done in the eyes of the poor

Again, totally naive. Raise the minimum wage too quickly, too much (which is their promise) then pretty much guaranteed you get higher unemployment (which some feel) and higher inflation (which the poor feel more severely than any other group). You see the labor force in Thailand is a very low productivity workforce so the economic fundamentals to justify much of a wage hike for the unskilled simply doesn't exist. So if the poor feel just as poor or even worse, do you think they are so stupid not to realize they weren't helped? Maybe so. But that is only one of many promises.

Doesn't appear to affect unions in other parts of the world being naive enough to negotiate wage rises........perhaps somebody should explain the needless effort they are making and alleviate the disruption they cause.....

As a former union representative, I can assure you that the old days of CPI increases are long gone. Now, if you want a pay rise you have to justify it with increases in productivity. In the electricity generation industry this has led to de-manning on a massive scale.