Banking For Americans In Thailand 101

[Pib]

OHHHH... BTW.... news from the AEON ATMs front....

Tonight, when I want to make an AEON ATM withdrawal in BKK, I saw something on their ATM screen that must be NEW because I've never seen or heard of it before with them....

The language basically said... AEON cash withdrawals are limited to 20,000 baht per transaction.

Now, at more than $600 U.S., that's more than most U.S. bankcards' daily ATM withdrawal limit. But still, in the past, people with higher daily card limits had been able to withdraw much larger single transaction sums from AEON.... Wonder why they've recently lowered their per transaction limit?

And of course, if someone has a higher daily card limit, there's nothing to stop them from doing two back-to-back withdrawals to still get the larger sum they might need.... and still, no fee from AEON for doing so.

I'll definitely be checking that out soon (by next week sometimes) since I many times go for around Bt30K per withdrawal (getting pretty close to $1000) using my no fee debit cards, both of which have a $1000/day cash withdrawal limit. It was around 25 Jun when did a couple of AEON ATM Bt30K withdrawals using my debit cards over here in western Bangkok. Maybe it was just the particular AEON ATM you used...maybe it's a high use ATM especially there in central Bangkok and been running out of money often and they lowered the limit on that machine....or maybe it something brand new for all AEON ATMs. I'll give some feedback within a week or so after my next AEON ATM withdrawal over here in my part of Bangkok.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

It was one of the fancy, newer style AEON ATMs in one of the big malls here.

The same ATMs and ATM office have been in that mall at least a year now, and it's one of those I regularly use the most. But I'd never before seen that 20K limit message on their ATM screen before... So I'm pretty sure it's new.

I might have missed it on one or two withdrawals... But certainly not for any extended period of time.

Thinking back, I think I only saw that message when I chose OTHER for the withdrawal amount, and that then brought up the keypad menu for typing in the desired withdrawal amount. I do a large withdrawal at the beginning of each month to pay our rent, so that's when I each month use the manual withdrawal amount selection method.

Today, I also made a second smaller withdrawal where I chose the amount from their preset withdrawal amounts screen, and I don't think I saw the same message when I only used that method... But the presets screen for withdrawals tops out at much smaller amounts, I think not over 10,000b. So there'd be no need for them to display the 20K message there.

Edited July 4, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

Bank of Internet which I no longer use to do ATM withdrawals here because they began charging a 2% FCF. Their reps have been told to tell customers that BOI is passing the 2% fee from Visa.

I'm not aware there's any situation where VISA would be adding a 2% fee for anything.... But the info you report above is even more interesting considering the current language in BofI's Terms and Conditions re International Transactions:

Using your Card for International Transactions

If you use your ATM or Check Card to obtain cash or to purchase goods or services in another country, the amount of the charge in foreign currency will be converted to a U.S. dollar amount by the applicable network (e.g. Visa, MasterCard, etc.). In making this conversion, the network will use the procedures set forth in its operating regulations. Conversion to U.S. dollars may occur on a date other than the date of the transaction; therefore, the currency conversion rate may be different from the conversion rate in effect on the transaction date. You understand that we do not determine the currency conversion rate that is used, and we do not receive any portion of the currency conversion rate.

https://www.bankofinternet.com/customer-support/disclosures#id.vcckdic77o9k

about halfway down this long webpage...

But then, I do find this even further down that same LONG page....

Visa® Debit Card Foreign Currency Conversion Rate 2%

So, thanks very much for updating on that and correcting my prior reference to BofI, Vagabond.

This is one of situations where, unfortunately, the Flyer's Guide and Wiki postings on BofI seem to be out-of-date.

PS - DANG!!!! That's got to be the LONGEST single-webpage bank terms and conditions document I've ever seen in my life...

Maybe where BofI says they do not receive any portion of the conversion rate means they don't get any of the Visa/MasterCard fee that is passed along to BofI....that is, they are not really splitting the profit from the fee. But where they say there is a Visa Debit Card Currency Conversion Rate of 2% that is really BofI's added foreign transaction fee, but they give it a name implying it's the evil card network charging the fee when really it's the evil bank (BofI) charging the fee. Yeap, using creative (misleading) wording trying to deflect the source of the fee to another entity...that what me thinks.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Not sure I'm following your notion above, Pib...

Re BofI, I'm assuming the total card fee is 2%, and VISA is taking up to half of that... or up to 1%...

Dunno where the other 1% might be going... But perhaps the language about the bank not taking a cut of the fee is older language back before they began charging the 2%, and they didn't catch or bother to update it when they raised their FCF.

[Mike45]

It might not have been Bangkok Bank. It would have had to have been a swift wire transfer to Kasikorn Bank then because they are the only two I use.

FYI

My Ach transfer went through and I received a text:

XYZ bank has transferred THB 1,XYZ

(USD (requested amount -$10.00) @30.89-THB500) from abroad into 6127XxxXYZ.

Received 2:02:05 am

25-06-2013

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Interesting...in doing some searching...came across this NerdWallet blog on debit card foreign currency transaction fees.... including a list of some banks' that supposedly don't charge them, including Charles Schwab and a few others...and then the various amounts that many other banks do charge...

Of particular note, there's an exchange down in the comments section on the subject of Capital One 360 where the blog author says they don't believe Cap One 360 actually charges any fee, despite the website language...and then a comment from a reader who says Cap One said up to 0.20%...

The article and accompanying chart are worth reading, just for seeing another recounting of what various institutions charge. But needless to say, the list is hardly complete, and makes no mention of several accounts that I have that charge no FCF fees.

http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/banking/debit-card-foreign-transaction-international-atm-fees/

Amazing page! Thank you for putting all of this information in one place, it has reduced the hours of frustration considerably.

When looking into the Capital One 360 Debit MasterCard, the site says that Capital One doesn't charge for foreign transactions, "however, MasterCard may apply a charge for converting the purchase to U.S. Dollars." I can't get a straight answer on how much this charge will be. Capital One says "up to .20%" and MasterCard says 1%. Please help.

NWjohn Mod Kristina Sims • a month ago

Glad we could help you out Kristina! As far as we know, Capital One 360 customers do not face any foreign transaction fees for using their debit cards, despite the warning about a potential fee from MasterCard. If you experience otherwise please let us know!

Edited July 4, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JimGant]

You understand that we do not determine the currency conversion rate that is used, and we do not receive any portion of the currency conversion rate.

Yeah, Visa/MC determine the rate, which has a built in spread from the more favorable interbank exchange rate (IER) -- the rate the networks actually receive. Such a spread has a profit value, of course -- but also a hedge against mispredicting the daily rate as opposed to the rate received when the dollars actually convert to baht. I suppose an issuing bank might have an option of NOT sharing any of this spread -- in return for only paying a lesser network fee than the full 1%. They would, of course, still hit you with the full 1% -- and pocket the difference. And NOT sharing in the spread may be what the gobblygook about 'not receiving any benefits from the conversion rate' is all about (?).

That daily rate seen on the Visa and MC websites is what you get -- absent all fees, including network fees (in fact, Visa has you insert a zero in the fee box to calculate this rate). Easy to see that the published rate is what you're getting, when you run the numbers on your monthly statement. As John said, most (all?) statements now break out any and all fees -- this transparancy (at least in the US) has come about since the class action suit against the card companies for hiding the real cost of foreign transactions. If your card is a rewards card, you'll surely have a fee-free standalone line item, with a second line item with the fees. This is to bring your attention to the fact that fees are NOT to be included toward reward points (USAA use to present the fees parenthetically, with your total cost as a line item. Calls of "I'm missing reward points" cured them of this.)

And speaking of tranparency, the published Visa and MC numbers best not be inaccurate, since both the Europeans and the US have laws regarding this. Here's a quote from the MC website that has the daily FX numbers, explaining the Europe legal connection behind MC's conversion tool:

MasterCard's Currency Conversion Tool was created to assist customers in Europe to comply with the provision contained in the Payment Services Directive (PSD) that requires transparency of exchange rate information. Specific reference is made to the transparency requirements imposed by Title III of the PSD that apply to payment services made in Euro or any of the official EEA currencies. In addition to providing customers with calculated cross-rates for all EEA currencies, MasterCard has extended the range of currencies to assist customers and their cardholders globally.

So, if you're having difficulty figuring out why your FX rate doesn't match the published daily rate -- look for some small print on your monthly card statement divulging fees -- as it's doubtful the card companies want another expensive class action suit against them.

[55Jay]

Went to Aeon last week, queue was 1/2 mile long with only 1 of 2 ATMs working.

Went back today, 1/4 mile queue, 1 ATM working.

Still haven't got near the ATM to test drive the CAP1 Checking ATM/Debit card or even my Schwab Card for that matter.

Will report back, not like I haven't been trying....

J

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks Jay... As mentioned above at the very end and beginning of each month is a bad time for a lot of AEON ATMs.

That's when a lot of Thais get paid and also when their loan debts (to AEON and others) come due... Thus they're queueing up to pay their 20% or 28% APR loans to AEON.

It should be OK now, now that the first few days of the new month have passed. I went last night, and there were only two in line ahead of me. A few days ago, I started out at something like 15th in line at the dinner hour (and had to wait maybe 10-15 minutes).

As an aside, it always baffles me a bit how many Thais, who have AEON cards and use the ATMs to pay their bills, can seem to understand how to use those same ATMs. At the office that I use (and this is in central BKK and not some farflung outpost upcountry), usually when it gets busy, they have an AEON staff member standing there and she invariably ends up stepping in and showing mystified Thais which buttons to press, etc etc.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

You understand that we do not determine the currency conversion rate that is used, and we do not receive any portion of the currency conversion rate.

Yeah, Visa/MC determine the rate, which has a built in spread from the more favorable interbank exchange rate (IER) -- the rate the networks actually receive. Such a spread has a profit value, of course -- but also a hedge against mispredicting the daily rate as opposed to the rate received when the dollars actually convert to baht. I suppose an issuing bank might have an option of NOT sharing any of this spread -- in return for only paying a lesser network fee than the full 1%. They would, of course, still hit you with the full 1% -- and pocket the difference. And NOT sharing in the spread may be what the gobblygook about 'not receiving any benefits from the conversion rate' is all about (?).

Jim, I guess my point about the odd situation above with BofI is as follows:

As far as we know, VISA doesn't have any situation where it's charging a FCF network fee to banks/CUs above 1%, and certainly not 2%.

BofI is clearly charging its customers a 2% FCF on their VISA debit cards, and at the same time claiming it's "not receiv[ing] any portion of the currency conversion rate.

So if VISA doesn't charge 2% (and presumably 1% or less) and BofI is in fact charging 2%, then where's the rest of that money going?

As first, I thought, perhaps that (we're not taking any cut of the exchange rate) was holdover language in a VERY long T&C document from when BofI wasn't charging their own fee..and they simply failed (or thus far have failed) to update it when they went to charging the 2%.

But then I realized, BofI is saying they're not taking any portion of the "currency conversion rate" -- which as you've noted above, doesn't have the FCF built-in. The did NOT say they're not taking any portion of the 2% fee.

So, what they've said could be accurate, since the added 2% FCF they're presumably sharing with VISA is an add-on separate from the currency conversion rate, and a nice extra profit for the bank.

Edited July 5, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[vagabond48]

BOI quote "not receiving any portion of the currency conversion rate."

I believe they are telling the truth but lying on the phone that Visa is responsible for the 2% FCF.

When I discovered last year that they were tacking on 1% FCF, it was on a separate line so technically they indeed were NOT taking any "portion". They just charged an additional 1%.

1/03 ATM W/D 0226 01/03/12 00003483 63.45-
1/03 Int Fee 0225 01/03/12 00003477 .63-

Btw, I believe I did get an email from them last Fall that the FCF was going up to 2%

When I received my Ally debit card back in 2010, I didn't know they charged a 1% FCF. I did a test, withdrawing same amount of money from Ally and Schwab DC to compare.The Ally withdrawn amount was off by 1%. I went online and they display only one line

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Just because I hadn't done one in a while... I did a exchange rates comparison on one of my commonly used VISA debit cards and two ATM withdrawals on it this past week.

The card is a rewards checking account card from a local (not mega) bank that charges no distinct/separate foreign currency fee. In the examples below, it doesn't match the VISA network rate, but it also does considerably better than 1% off the VISA rate, and beat the BKK Bank Buying TT rate both times.

Here's how they went:

ATM withdrawal 5 pm July 4:

31.085 -- XRates.com

31.084 -- Bank of Thailand avg IER

31.057 -- VISA network rate for July 4

30.943 -- my actual rate (0.114b off the VISA rate)

30.93 -- BKK Bank Buying TT (only for that morning, no rate for the afternoon)

Then

ATM Withdrawal July 2 5:55 pm

31.037 -- VISA network rate for July 2

30.985 -- XRates.com

30.935 -- Bank of Thailand Avg. IER

30.90 -- my actual rate (0.137b off the VISA rate)

30.76 -- BKK Bank Buying TT for the afternoon

Then I went back to an older withdrawal with a different VISA debit card from a credit union that charges the 1% fee separately, but later rebates it at month's end. So for both reasons, it doesn't figure into the numbers below which reflect only the core transaction:

ATM Withdrawal May 30, 2013

30.185 -- Bank of Thailand Avg. IER

30.158 -- Xrates.com

30.142 -- VISA network rate for May 30

30.020 -- BKK Bank Buying TT for afternoon

30.013 - my actual rate (0.129b off the VISA rate)

By comparison, a 1% fee off the VISA rates of approx. 30b to the dollar would be 0.30+b.

Edited July 5, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

When looking at the Q&As some ore on the Visa exchange rate page they specifically say they "do not" charge the customer or merchants a fee, but instead are paid by financial institutions using Visa's global network....and they say that fee will range in the 0.15% to 1.0% range...guess it depends on the contract between financial institutions and Visa. That tells me that Visa "does not" send along an extra 1% charge with each and every foreign transaction tagged specifically at the customer; however, your bank will get a charge for a foreign transaction linked to your card and then it's purely up to the bank if they pass that fee along to the customer...or pass along that fee plus extra piled on top...like how many banks seem to like to charge a 3% foreign transaction fee. Well, if the bank did get hit with a 1% charge from Visa (or maybe only 0.15%) for your foreign transaction then the bank added another 2 to 2.85% markup...nice little profit they are making. See below Q&A cut and paste/quote.

What is Visa’s fee structure for international transactions?

Visa Inc. does not assess any fees to cardholders or merchants. Visa applies International Service Assessment (ISA) fees ranging from 0.15 to 1 percent to its financial institution partners for their use of the global payment system.

The fees are paid by financial institutions on transactions that require the use of our global infrastructure. Since Visa does not assess any fees to cardholders or merchants, we have no involvement in financial institution pricing to cardholders or merchants. If financial institutions or merchants decide to assess a foreign transaction fee to their customers, they are required to provide details to their cardholders and consumers

I think this Star One Credit Union webpage on their Debit Card Agreement in Para 12 (also quoted below) regarding Foreign Transaction Fee does a good job in saying that Visa passes the Visa International Service Assessment Fee "to the Credit Union" and then the credit union passes the charge to your account. This is in-sync with the Visa Q&A above. Now, Star One could absorb the fee like some banks do (e.g., Schwab, etc.) and then you would have a no foreign transaction fee debit card, but Star One passes the fee to the customer like many banks do. I guess when a bank decides not to absorb the fee/pass it along to the customer, whether they do it by showing the fee as a separate line item or just adding/mixing it in with the ATM withdrawal/purchase amount (which effectively makes it look like you got a 1% lower exchange rate from Visa) is up to the bank. I know Visa says the bank is suppose pass foreign transaction details to the customer, which could imply clearly show it as a separate fee & how much, but maybe just talking about it in the debit card agreement and then adding/mixing it into the total amount meets that requirement. Always best to do some dissecting of the charge hitting your account if the exchange rate seems a little low/doesn't agree with the Visa Exchange Rate webpage. Note: Pretty much ditto if using a MasterCard debit card but be sure to use the MasterCard Exchange Rate webpage.

12. FOREIGN TRANSACTION FEE

Purchases and cash advances made in foreign currencies will be billed in U.S. dollars.

The conversion rate in U.S. dollars will be either at the government mandated rate or a wholesale currency market rate determined by VISA® for the processing cycle in which the transaction is processed.

The currency conversion rate used by VISA® on the processing date may differ from the rate that would have been used on the purchase date or cardholder statement posting date. The Credit Union has no control over the conversion rate. In addition to the conversion rate selected by VISA®, a separate VISA International Service Assessment Fee of 1% is charged to the Credit Union and will also appear as a separate line item on your statement.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

So, since my two other supposedly no FCF VISA debit cards both came up short of the VISA card network rate by 0.114 to 0.137 baht, I decided I'd try the same comparison this evening with my Schwab debit card.... I got a slightly better result and rate, but still short of the VISA card network rate posted on the VISA website. As follows

July 5 Transactions with Schwab Debit card:

31.185 -- XRates.com

31.142 -- Bank of Thailand avg. IER

31.090 -- VISA network rate

31.02 -- AEON ATM withdrawal 7:15 pm

31.01 -- POS purchase 7:05 pm

30.99 -- BKK Bank afternoon buying TT rate

So with the Schwab card, its rate came up short of the VISA card network rate by 0.070 baht... about half as much as the other card results I posted above.

BTW, the VISA website I'm using to obtain their currency exchange rate is the following:

http://corporate.visa.com/pd/consumer_services/consumer_ex_rates.jsp

But it looks like they have the same rates at this USA VISA site:

http://usa.visa.com/personal/using_visa/consumer_ex_rates_us.jsp

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

So, since my two other supposedly no FCF VISA debit cards both came up short of the VISA card network rate by 0.114 to 0.137 baht, I decided I'd try the same comparison this evening with my Schwab debit card.... I got a slightly better result and rate, but still short of the VISA card network rate posted on the VISA website. As follows

July 5 Transactions with Schwab Debit card:

31.185 -- XRates.com

31.142 -- Bank of Thailand avg. IER

31.090 -- VISA network rate

31.02 -- AEON ATM withdrawal 7:15 pm

31.01 -- POS purchase 7:05 pm

30.99 -- BKK Bank afternoon buying TT rate

So with the Schwab card, its rate came up short of the VISA card network rate by 0.070 baht... about half as much as the other card results I posted above.

BTW, the VISA website I'm using to obtain their currency exchange rate is the following:

http://corporate.visa.com/pd/consumer_services/consumer_ex_rates.jsp

But it looks like they have the same rates at this USA VISA site:

http://usa.visa.com/personal/using_visa/consumer_ex_rates_us.jsp

[Pib]

John,

You are making mistake when using the Visa Exchange Rate site. I bet what you are doing is in the "My Card Is In" field you are selecting Thai Baht and in the "My Transaction Was In" field entering USD. This is incorrect as your card is in issued as a USD card and you are accomplishing a transaction in baht. This will give you a slightly high exchange rate like the 31.09 you got due to currency spreads (which currency you are basically converting/buying/selling); but enter USD in the "My Card Is In" field and "Thai baht in the "My Transaction Was In" field and you get 31.01 after pulling out a calculator.

Unfortunately, the Visa USA exchange web site don't automatically show you the "inverse" rate of exchange we are use to seeing like 31.XX baht/USD; instead it only gives the exchange rate in a "fractional amount"---then you must pull out a calculator and divide that fractional amount into one. If you don't do it that way you'll get an error, slightly higher exchange rate. You see that slightly higher (incorrect) exchange rate on the Visa page due to incorrect entries, but when looking at the charge hitting your bank account and doing the math to figure out the exchange rate received you end up with a slightly lower exchange rate and you think Visa or you bank must have skimmed off a little even with your no foreign transaction fee debit/credit card. I'm guessing where you say POS Purchase exchange rate that was based on during the math based on the dollar amount hitting your account...that is, dividing the baht charge for the purchase by the dollar amount that hit you US bank account.

Now when you use the Visa European Exchange rate webpage for Visa cards issued from European banks although the rate will usually be a tinny amount different at least that page shows you the exchange rate in the fractional amount and inverse amount....you don't need to pull out a calculator like the Visa USA web site to get the inverse amount/the way our brain likes to see the exchange rate.

Whenever I use my Schwab and St Farm no foreign transaction fee debit cards the dollar amount hitting my accounts always matches the Visa USA exchange rate to the 2d or 3d decimal point.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks Pib... sorry to be confused about that... I tried the inverse calculation as a trial, and it seemed like I came up with an identical rate... USD to Thai baht vs. Thai baht to USD... But I may have made an error... I'll go back and recalculate my results tomorrow...

Edited July 5, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

Don't tell anybody, but I did the same thing (tried to take a shortcut on the Visa exchange rate page) before until JimGant straightened me out. But I sure wish the Visa USA webpage would also show the inverse value like they do on the Visa European webpage as I would prefer not to have to pull out a calculator to get the rate my brain can understand instead of that less than one fractional value they give.

But for anyone else out there listening don't use the Visa European site to determine your exchange rate unless you have a Visa card issued by a European ban, as the daily rates are ever so slightly different. Based on the couple of times I've compared the two sites sometimes the European rate is a tiny bit higher than the USA rate and sometimes vice-versa. I guess the difference in rates probably has something to do with different laws/rules/polices....who knows.

Edited July 5, 2013 by Pib

[JimGant]

John,

Beat you to it. The published Visa rate is right on the money with the rate you actually got (4 Jul = 30.9434; 5 Jul = 31.0135; etc.)

As said, ever since the class action suit, the published networks' rates are right on -- to usually 3 decimal places (as Pib has previously pointed out).

John, never having done a POS transaction with my debit card, I'll be curious to see what the final rate is that you get with your 5 July, 7:05 POS purchase. Had that been a Visa credit card, your final rate would be that of 6 July -- when the transaction is finalized (from my experience anyway). I'm assuming a debit card used in the "credit" mode (swipe and sign) would be handled the same way(?). But, I guess, it could be handled the same as an ATM transaction (i.e., near real time).

Lemme know what you get. Thanx.

Oh, had you done your afternoon ATM pulls with MC plastic, you'd have gotten MC's 3 July rate for your 4 July pull (30.797 vs. the 30.94 you actually got). For your 5 July realized Visa rate of 31.01, your MC would have only fetched 30.839. Actual days comparison is: 30.943 vs 30.839 for 4 July -- with Visa, natch, a better bargain than MC -- and with MC 10 satang *lower* than the TT rate (which, as other threads have highlighted, ACHing money to Bangkok Bank can often be superior to using a fee free MC debit/ATM card, at least with large amounts of $'s ACHed).

Some Brit, on another thread, has indicated MC is actually a good deal -- when British pounds are involved. Maybe so, but haven't the time to run the numbers. Haven't cared about British pounds for 237 years now -----

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Jim and Pib... thanks for watching my back... and helping the math challenged among us.... It is a good reminder though regarding using the VISA website to calculate their rate... as it doesn't directly provide the rate (XX.XX THB per $1) we're looking for... We have to do the inverse calculation, which I failed to do...

So just to be clear on the correct methodology for looking at U.S issued VISA bankcards... we're going to the VISA US exchange rates site,

Once there, in the fill-in form, we're choosing "My Card is in US $" and "My Transaction was in Thai Baht." Choosing the date of the transaction and entering in the card-issuing bank fee %, if any. Getting results of "1 Thai Baht = 0.03XXXX United States Dollar" type. Then using a calculator to get the inverse number by entering the digit "1" and then dividing that by the 0.03XXXX number to get the rate for XX.XX baht per $1.

--------------------------------------------------------

So, here then are my revised/corrected results:

July 5 Transactions with the no-fee Schwab VISA Debit card:

31.185 -- XRates.com

31.142 -- Bank of Thailand avg. IER

31.0135 -- VISA network rate

1 Thai Baht = 0.032244 United States Dollar

31.0126 -- AEON ATM withdrawal 7:15 pm

2000b for $64.49 - status posted

31.0104 -- POS purchase 7:05 pm

890b for $28.70 - status pending

30.99 -- BKK Bank afternoon buying TT rate

--------------------------------------------

Local U.S. Bank No-Fee Rewards VISA ATM withdrawal July 4 5 pm:

31.085 -- XRates.com

31.084 -- Bank of Thailand avg IER

30.943 -- VISA network rate for July 4

1 Thai Baht = 0.032317 United States Dollar

30.943 -- my actual rate (matching the VISA rate)

15,000b for $484.76

30.93 -- BKK Bank Buying TT (only for that morning, no rate for the afternoon)

-----------------------------------------

Local U.S. Bank No-Fee Rewards VISA ATM Withdrawal July 2 5:55 pm

30.985 -- XRates.com

30.935 -- Bank of Thailand Avg. IER

30.903 -- VISA network rate for July 2

1 Thai Baht = 0.032359 United States Dollar

30.902 -- my actual rate

1,000b for $32.36

30.76 -- BKK Bank Buying TT for the afternoon

--------------------------------

Then I went back to an older withdrawal with a different VISA debit card from a credit union that charges the 1% ISA fee separately, but later automatically rebates it at month's end. So for both reasons, it doesn't figure into the numbers below which reflect only the core transaction:

ATM Withdrawal May 30, 2013

30.185 -- Bank of Thailand Avg. IER

30.158 -- Xrates.com

30.020 -- BKK Bank Buying TT for afternoon

30.013 -- VISA network rate for May 30

1 Thai Baht = 0.033319 United States Dollar

30.013 - my actual rate

12,000b for $399.83

[Pib]

Good specific data John...to me this reconfirms a no foreign transaction fee ATM/Debit card like the Schwab Bank card does exactly like what they say in the Card Agreement/Terms & Conditions...that is, they use the Visa exchange rate. That's what my checking has shown for my two no foreign transaction fee Visa debit cards.

And of course since it's going to be rare that the Visa exchange rate would be a value that ends up calculating out to the exact penny....like for example to exactly $100.05; when in fact before rounding it might have calculated out to $100.04558. But you can probably be guaranteed your bank is probably going to "round-up" to the nearest penny to ensure they do not fork out any more of their own money to cover the incoming withdrawal. So when a person compares the charge hitting their bank account to the exchange rate it could be a penny off depending on the exchange value and rounding.

But if a person starts seeing more than a penny difference they should first check the battery in their calculator and clean their finger tips...and if the difference still exists then start looking for other factors like maybe some foreign transaction fee is being applied, which could be either flat fee or a percentage fee...or getting more common a combo flat fee plus percentage fee. Preaching to the choir leader I know.

And since a lot of expats have Visa cards issued by European banks they would need to ensure they use the European Visa exchange rate page since the exchange rates between the Visa USA page and European Visa page are usually a little bit different the few times I checked. Now the few times I had checked before I was only getting differences in the second decimal point like less than a 0.25% difference.

But just before making this post I went to the Visa USA page to check what Euro/Baht exchange rate I got (remember the USA page would be the wrong page to check the exchange rate for a Visa card issued by a European bank) and for 5 July I got an exchange rate of 39.95525 but when going to the Visa European page I got a 5 July exchange rate of 40.20261 which is around a 0.6% difference...now 0.6% is a pretty healthy exchange rate difference. And I paid special attention to ensure I use the same 5 Jul date for both web sites because at this point in time the European site was already reflecting 6 Jul rate (so I had to select 5 Jul) and the US web site still reflecting 5 Jul...got another 10 minutes or so before 6 Jul arrives the US east coast.

So any Americans, or any nationality,which might be carrying Visa cards issued by European banks be sure use the Visa European web site to check the Visa exchange rate. Maybe MasterCard may have different rates for European bank issued Mastercards but I don't remember seeing any MasterCard webpage specifically for such cards; I've just seen there one web site...don't know if they just use one worldwide rate or do have a different rate for Mastercards issued by European banks like Visa does.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

And, the comparable VISA site for Europe-based card exchange rate calculations is located here:

http://www.visaeurope.com/en/cardholders/exchange_rates.aspx

---------------------------

But back to the broader point, working via the VISA exchange rates website was an interesting exercise for me...and one I had never done before.

In the past, I'd always done my calculations and comparisons between the rates I got on my cards... compared to the BOT IER and XRates.com rates... but I'd never done the VISA network rate comparisons before. Probably because I didn't want to mess with, or wasn't sure how exactly to do, the inverse calculation that tripped me up on my original calculations above.

Before, I knew I had at least 3 or 4 U.S. debit cards for which I didn't pay any explicit foreign currency fees....and that gave rates usually pretty close to, but less than, the Bank of Thailand Interbank Exchange Rate (IER). But know I also know that those same cards in fact are giving me exactly the VISA card network rate, which is as good as any regular consumer is going to get in normal international transactions.

It's also the only way to verify that a bank card that appears to not have any foreign currency exchange fees is in fact free of them, and that your home country bank isn't covertly messing with your exchange rate.

Edited July 6, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

OHHHH... BTW.... news from the AEON ATMs front....

Tonight, when I want to make an AEON ATM withdrawal in BKK, I saw something on their ATM screen that must be NEW because I've never seen or heard of it before with them....

The language basically said... AEON cash withdrawals are limited to 20,000 baht per transaction.

Now, at more than $600 U.S., that's more than most U.S. bankcards' daily ATM withdrawal limit. But still, in the past, people with higher daily card limits had been able to withdraw much larger single transaction sums from AEON.... Wonder why they've recently lowered their per transaction limit?

And of course, if someone has a higher daily card limit, there's nothing to stop them from doing two back-to-back withdrawals to still get the larger sum they might need.... and still, no fee from AEON for doing so.

I'll definitely be checking that out soon (by next week sometimes) since I many times go for around Bt30K per withdrawal (getting pretty close to $1000) using my no fee debit cards, both of which have a $1000/day cash withdrawal limit. It was around 25 Jun when did a couple of AEON ATM Bt30K withdrawals using my debit cards over here in western Bangkok. Maybe it was just the particular AEON ATM you used...maybe it's a high use ATM especially there in central Bangkok and been running out of money often and they lowered the limit on that machine....or maybe it something brand new for all AEON ATMs. I'll give some feedback within a week or so after my next AEON ATM withdrawal over here in my part of Bangkok.

I did a 30K baht withdrawal today from the AEON ATM I frequently use over here in a western Bangkok Lotus mall. No new screens or anything popped up. I'm thinking it's just that particular AEON ATM you used....maybe it's a high usage ATM especially being in the central Bangkok area and was running out of money too often and AEON has just set a lower limit on that particular machine to hopefully reduce the number of times it runs out. Even through someone could just slide their card in again to get more money, sometimes little road bumps like a XX-amount limit per withdrawal is enough to prevent X-amount of folks from doing another transaction and I expect some will think if they tried again it would reject. Also, no AEON fee for my foreign card.

There is a Bangkok Bank ATM at a major gas station close to me which I use several times a month....I just use my Bangkok Bank debit card with the machine; not any of my US cards. For about a six month period no matter what day of week or time of day I used it the ATM would always say there was a 12.5K withdrawal limit...I guesstimate I used that ATM twice and month and each every time it said a 12.5K baht limit applied. Quite a few times I needed more than 12.5K so I would just run a second withdrawal with no problem. Then starting about 6 months ago, I have never seen that screen again whenever I use that machine I usually withdraw 10-20K baht when using the machine. Now maybe I was just unlucky for many months every time I used the machine and it was just getting low on cash and automatically started the restricted transaction amount until refilled....and for the last six months or so I have been lucky in that the machine still has plenty of cash and it don't automatically start the restriction. I don't know.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Thanks for the intel, Pib. The fact you didn't get that message is encouraging. Maybe the 20K limit I encountered isn't systemic.

Just curious. The AEON ATM where I got the 20K withdrawal limit message was one of the new style, modern ones -- different from the older ones AEON still has in various locales. How about the ATM you used at Lotus?

Next time I need to do a larger withdrawal, I'll try to remember to do it at some different AEON location, to see if the same 20K limit message pops up elsewhere.

[Pib]

Thanks for the intel, Pib. The fact you didn't get that message is encouraging. Maybe the 20K limit I encountered isn't systemic.

Just curious. The AEON ATM where I got the 20K withdrawal limit message was one of the new style, modern ones -- different from the older ones AEON still has in various locales. How about the ATM you used at Lotus?

Next time I need to do a larger withdrawal, I'll try to remember to do it at some different AEON location, to see if the same 20K limit message pops up elsewhere.

It was one of the older ones. But I did use a newer one/whiz bang looking AEON ATM at a Big C in Bang Yai, Nonthaburi to withdraw 30K baht the last week in June and it didn't report any limitation either.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Pib

[JimGant]

Old subject -- regurgitated: Credit cards

I know this has been hashed to death, but things do change. And in the back of my mind, when it comes to the best fee-free credit card, Capital One is it. However, I also recall that the 2% for some, 1% for other cash back feature is no longer available from CapOne. Instead, it's now 1.25% for all categories...... Pib?

And recently, I saw someone praise Bank of America's fee free credit card. In my mind they're the king of the 3% fee cards. And the beginning of this thread is loaded with trashing BofA, which was appropriate at the time. But it would seem they're now trying to be competitive.

Look at this link:

http://www.dailymarkets.com/creditcards/bankamericard-travel-rewards/

The Bank of America Travel Rewards card sounds pretty good. No annual fee, no foreign transaction fees (including not passing on the network fee); it's Visa, not the less favorable MC; and a 1.5% cash back feature (in very small print, as travel credits seems to be the promoted feature). Also, on the sign up sheet, you can indicate you live in Thailand -- and also non resident aliens can apply (but not on-line). So, it would seem, no heartburn having this card as an expat.

Now look at this link:

http://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/top-credit-cards/no-foreign-transaction-fee-credit-card/

The competitor Capital One Venture card has a 2% reward feature -- but it sounds like only as travel related credits, but no cash back (and cash back is what I want). Same with Chase, which has 2% for travel and restaurant purchases, but 1% for everything else. And both have annual fees ($59 and $95), Can't tell if Chase is Visa or not..... Capital One's Venture card is, however. And, from the application pages, I can't tell if expats are welcomed..

Anybody have experience with the BofA Travel Rewards card? Any recommendations for a superior expat credit card, or how Chase and CapOne stack up? Thanx.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

My Cap One VISA, which I've had for a long time, these days is a flat 1% cash back on everything variety... And of course no FCFs. I really rarely use credit cards for local purchases here in LOS, although I do use them for various online purchases from the States.

The nice part is, rather than fiddling around with points and conversions and such, you simply get a cash credit to your rewards account every month. And can click to transfer that amount as a bill credit for your credit card, all done online. Or, you can setup their rewards system to automatically do a bill credit whenever your rewards balance reached a certain $ threshhold.

I have other credit cards and many of their rewards systems are based on points and redeeming those points for a variety of (it seems to me) overpriced merchandise from their websites or retailer stored value cards. I did that once with a Starbuck's stored value card and it was accepted here in LOS.

But it's going to be pretty tough sledding to find a Red Lobster, Appelby's, Sears, Macy's, etc etc around these parts.... Although, some of the rewards things can be used for places like Amazon, Best Buy and other online retailers where things could be purchased, provided you wanted to pay to have them shipped here from the U.S.

For me, I like the clean and simple cash credit to my credit card statement. In other words, "show me the money!"

But remember with Cap One, as has often been stated here, their security system can be pretty finicky about U.S. accounts that suddenly have large charges showing up from Thailand. So I always make sure I carry a second card of some variety just as an emergency backup.

And if I'm planning to use the Cap One card for multiple transactions here in a short period or even a single large value purchase, I'll remember to log onto the Cap One website and do a "travel advisory" so my transaction doesn't get blocked.

BTW Jim, I also have a couple of Chase cards (all VISA), and those all have FCFs.... So I never use them here in LOS.

My primary Chase card has a rewards system whereby each quarter they have specials that have higher rewards %s on certain categories of purchases, sometimes on airfare or groceries or home improvement or pharmacy, etc etc. But I never use the card enough, or consistently make those kinds of purchases enough, for it to have much value.

Back in days past, sometimes, when I wanted to purchase an international airline ticket, I'd be able to time it so the purchase fell into one of those quarters when Chase was offering airfare purchases as one of its high rewards categories. I know in the past their quarterly promotions ranged as high as 5% back for purchases in their special designated categories.

I also divide up my credit cards into two distinct categories -- those for use in Thailand or abroad, and those for use back in the U.S. or for online purchases there.

The Thailand group, of course, most importantly have no FCF and hopefully some cash rewards and low interest rates, in case I ever want to pay over time.

The U.S. group, on the other hand, I don't care about FCF, but look for things like airline miles, Amazon credits, discounted stays at the hotel chain I prefer when I'm back in the U.S. for visits, etc etc... and of course NO annual fee.\

Edited July 7, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[4evermaat]

- To make sure that your wire transfers are sent in the "correct" currency:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?/topic/644129-Avoiding-The-International-Incoming-Wire-Fee-Haircuts....#entry6471595

- Why some banks are so deceptive or sneaky about their fees unless govt hand forces them or enough complaints are received is beyond me. What happened to the old fashion way to earn business.

BoA Military is now intergrated with the regular bank of america systems. So we all use the same site. For the state acct is opened to sign on or make deposits, use Texas (BoA military banking headquarters).

I was actually surprised to see some fees completely eliminated. Supposidly there are ZERO fees for any domestic or international wire transfer. Foreign currency/transaction fees are also ZERO, including atm withdraw fee. No monthly fees for what is the equivalent of a interest bearing premier checking acct with employee fee waivers.

Yeah, i know....bank of america....wow.

One drawback is the daily/weekly wire limit without having to use sms verification or safepass 2-factor security.

Do i need to get a usa sim card (only usa cell number is accepted)? If so, which one to get? or purchase the safepass. Who knows, maybe the fee is waived.

"...the 2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app (Galaxy Note 2).

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

If you have a Google Voice number set up with a U.S.-based account, you may be able to receive U.S. sent SMS messages to that number, and then receive them here as Google emails.

Even if you had a U.S. carrier SIM in a phone physically located here in Thailand, I'm not sure on what carrier/service/plan would enable you to directly receive SMSs abroad...at least without incurring a pretty substantial monthly service fee from the carrier.

I have a pay as you go T-Mobile SIM here, and they have no international roaming available with that service. AT&T I think also doesn't offer international service for their low cost pay as you go services. But if you wanted to pay them $XX every month for regular U.S. calling plan services that you'd pretty much not use, then I think they could accommodate.

TV member Lomatopo is our resident expert on what is and isn't available in terms of mobile services.

[Pib]

Jim,

My CapOne MasterCard No Hassles credit card is still paying 2%/1% cash back...and no foreign transaction fee or annual fee....also no longer available to new customers. My sister in the States who also has the card is still getting the 2%/1% also. I get 2% on all grocery store and gas buys and 1% on everything else. And what's nice, is the way merchants codes are applied to Thai stores, I get 2% on anything and everything I buy in stores like Lotus and Big C...it don't matter if it's groceries, beer, underwear, electronics, etc....it's 2% on "everything and anything in the store." As mentioned the 2% also applies to all grocery stores like Foodland, Tops, The Villa, etc. I sure wish Makro accepted credit cards other than their own credit card issued by Citi I think, because we do a lot of grocery shopping at Makro and being able to use my credit card there should would allow the cash back rewards to build up faster....oh well. I get 2% on diesel for my Fortuner and I get 1% on everything else like hardware store (HomePro), restaurants, medical/dental/hospital, etc. Now 55Jay did start a this thread where he got a notice in Dec 12 about the card switching to a flat 1.25% cash back come Feb 13 and apparently his did, but for me and my sister ours are still paying the 2%/1%. Gosh knows why it changed for some and no for others...maybe a state residence thing, maybe when the card was initially issued, who knows.

In 55Jay's thread you'll see where I also got a CapOne "Visa" credit card paying 1% on everything along with a 50% cash back bonus each year which effectively makes it a 1.5% cash back card over a 12 month period. As part of it's promotion it also paid a $100 cash reward bonus if using the card to purchase at least $500 during the first 3 months of having the card....I got that $100 cash bonus in the second month of having the card and CapOne immediately credited my account during that second month....sweet. I effectively earned 21% cash back on that first $500 in purchases. There is a no foreign transaction fee and no annual fee. Also no longer available to new customers the best I can see.

I "do" use my credit cards as much as I can for local/in-Thailand buys as 2%/1% cash back paid by my cards, mostly 2% based on the card I use and what I buy, can really add up fast. I have my account setup to automatically credit my account whenever I build-up $25 in cash back.

And when it comes to "points" rewards cards you can keep them---give me "cash back" rewards, repeat, cash back rewards! Trying to utilize the rewards points earned on discounts towards high priced products/services you don't really need or want, or towards travel rewards which can be super hard to utilize to the locations and on the dates you want it just don't seem worth it. I expect many, many rewards points go unused. But with cash back rewards set to credit your account at ever $25 earned (or a higher value of you choosing, or you can choose a distribution just once a year, or get a check, or get a gift card), you are getting "cash" to spend on anything you desire. I just choose to credit it back toward my monthly credit card bill which I pay off monthly. I like how CapOne allows the cash rewards to occur at the $25 threshold vs how many credit cards only provide a cash back reward once a year...and if you cancel the card before reaching that yearly anniversary or meeting the minimum threshold you don't get any reward. In my opinion, thumbs down on reward points cards and thumbs up on cash reward cards....but to each his own.

However, even a U.S. credit card with no rewards program of any kind (points or cash) can come in handy when a person needs to buy something online, rent a car/hotel room, or just assist in the monthly living expenses. You could do that with Thai credit cards but Thai credit/debit card consumer protection laws (what little exist) don't come anywhere close to extensive U.S. Consumer protection laws for cards. It's like night and day.

Cards promotion sure come and go frequently. The particular CapOne MasterCard and Visa cards I have are no longer offered, but I see they are currently offering a Visa QuickSilver card (no foreign transaction fee and no annual fee) that pays a flat 1.5% cash back...and it also has that earn a $100 cash back bonus if using the card to purchase at least $500 over the first three months if qualifying under their Excellent credit rating which really ain't hard to do unless someone has had a habit of not paying bills on time for whatever good or bad reasons. See this Link. Heck, I may even drop CapOne an email/call to see if I can switch my Visa card to the new Visa QuickSilver card since it pays the 1.5% cash back out of the gate, but I expect they would say no I must apply for the card and they probably keep track of special bonus earned like that special $100 cash back bonus and I couldn't earn another special bonus within a 12 month period. Buy hey, I figure the only thing they could say is No, you can't just switch via a simple phone call; you gotta apply for the card. Then again, I don't want to look like a someone just trying to build up dozens of credit cards and chasing after special bonuses. And I have no doubt CapOne Visa QuickSilver Visa card promotion will no longer be offered to new customers in a few months and be replaced with another promotion....maybe they'll eventually get back to a 2%/1% cash back card...stay tuned to the CapOne web site.

.

It does appear credit card companies are now allowing more latitude in your "address," even if applying online, for a card as long as you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien (i.e., have green card) along with having a social security number. When I applied for my CapOne MasterCard a couple of years ago using my APO address their online application would not allow/offer entry of an APO address...I had to call CapOne and apply over the phone using my APO address...but card approved. And around six months ago when applying for their Visa card it "did" allow use of the APO address and had the AP, AE, AA state-equivalent codes to choose from in the pull-down menu...I applied using only my APO and was immediately approved online within 30 seconds...given a VERY generous line of credit and the card showed up in the mail in approx. 10 days. When activating the card I then asked for a card for my Thai wife (also a U.S. citizen) and that card showed up about 10 days later. And then like you pointed out that BoA online application allows entry of a foreign address as long as you are a U.S. citizen or Resident Alien. It does seem some credit card companies and banks are allowing more latitude on the address thing--but one thing for sure they will still run credit reports and other checks to ensure you are who you say you are, you are a citizen/resident alien, etc.

Cheers,

Pib