'Bringing The Good Guy Back' - Supporters Plan Birthday Bash For Thaksin

[Thaddeus]

One thing I know for certain.

Most of the posters on this thread would never get used to using Twitter.

[rixalex]

Rather than taking potshots at a PM that took a tough decision you should be expressing gratitude because Thailand would have been taken over by the drug cartels had Mr. Thaksin not acted with the full support of the population.

1) I would say the support was widespread, not full.

2) Actually the level of support is completely academic, firstly because the support is based on how the politicians sell the policy - who would not support someone telling you they had a way of eradicating drugs if they failed to mention all the innocents who would get killed in the process? - and secondly, because support no matter how great ever changes rights or wrongs. Thaksin supporters seem to think it does. Perhaps this thinking comes from the notorious assets concealment case where wrong was overlooked on the basis of popular support.

[kilvingtono]

I thought I was going to read about Marilyn Monroe singing "Happy Birthday Mr President"!!!!!!!! Will wait and see.

[rixalex]

Can I just ask something ? Right, the reason why there are more anti-Thaksin people than pro-Thaksin people amongst us foreigners is, supposedly, because Thaksin was corrupt (they say he is a crook, he broke Thai law). But, I'm convinced there's something else. There's another reason why most of the people on Thai Visa don't like him. I mean, for those who don't like him because of his corrupt ways, well, there's stacks of other politicians who are corrupt. I do have vague memories of talking back in pre- 2006, of blokes drinking in bars, and having a pop at Thaksin, and it wasn't about Thaksin being a crook !!

Most Thai politicians are as you rightly say, also corrupt, but the reason why Thaksin stands out, for me at least is, for one, his level of corruption is one of the highest and committed whilst standing at the highest political position, and for two, the fact that unlike most other corrupt politicians who are generally accepted as being bad apples by most of the population, Thaksin successfully tricked (and continues to trick) a lot of people into thinking that he was/is somehow different from the rest; that he cares. This makes him both smart and very dangerous, because unlike other corrupt politicians who have their time in the trough and then waddle off with their bellies full, he and his family could potentially hold the position for a number of generations. If you need examples of families doing just this, take a look at Thailand's neighbouring countries. Hun Sen, Marcos etc etc...

[cup-O-coffee]

Kalasin-Issan ,mother and father are still trying to get answers to "Where is our son" missing in the war on drugs, He happens to be 1 of the 2.5 k international organisations do not seem to have the answers. (or are lied to) My point being the P.M. at the time ordered the war on drugs to satisfy the world outcry====what about their(victims) birthday bash???????

At the time, In any given month in there were approximately 400 murders a month, many of which were unsolved and drug related. Almost 80% of those deaths involved a forearm. Following the blow delivered to the drug cartels and their Burmese based drug suppliers, Thailand's murder rate fell dramatically. (And before any smartass wants to play with the numbers and say there was not a significant drop off, remove the murders related to the southern insurgency which spiked in 2005-2006.) Those are the facts. Why do you think the murder rate fell by almost 40%? Do you think it is possible that the drug gangs were shooting and bribing their way to control of various regions? Yes, many people that died during the fight against the drug cartels were innocent civilian casualties, but they were often murdered by the drug trafficers. The assumption that 2500 were killed in extrajudicial killings can not be proven. There is no doubt that many people died due to the gross negligence of the police and the army. The responsible parties are the police and military commanders. It is easy to point the finger. It makes all the Thaksin haters happy because it provides a neat simple solution to what was a complex problem. The Prime Minister ordered that the people of Thailand be protected against a slow moving assumption of control by drug cartels in Thailand. Rather than taking potshots at a PM that took a tough decision you should be expressing gratitude because Thailand would have been taken over by the drug cartels had Mr. Thaksin not acted with the full support of the population.

It is unfortunate an innocent person may have died. However, innocent people were being murdered by the drug dealers on any given day. Chances are that many of these people or their relatives or their friends would have been killed had the government of Thailand not intervened. Civilians always die in wars. That too is the reality.

It is utterly ludicrous to state that drug cartels were going to take over Thailand at that time. It is equally as ludicrous to compare innocents being killed owing to a government policy with targets during a time of peace and democracy with civilians being killed in war. It all sounds like authoritarian loving fantasist stuff. Still mildly amusing to read, please keep the entertainment coming

Yes. Mildly amusing to dismiss innocents being killed owing to a government policy against terrorism and weapons of mass destruction that never existed. Americans who celebrated the death of people who never hurt them, and who could never possible hurt them, all because of a myth. Mildly amusing to dismiss innocents being killed owing to several nations striking a deal with a diaspora, and making a land grab from people who had lived and worked their land for thousands of years, but instead were massacred and are held in a concentration-like style of living even to this day, even though the UN has denounced this and it goes ignored by the USA and its puppet master. All because of a myth. Mildly amusing to dismiss innocents being killed owing to a government policy of claiming a continent for their own, when the indigenous peoples had no clue, and instead were massacred as nothing more than savages. Mildy amusing that Alexander was called "Great" because he had an itch in his pants and wanted to rule the world because he was like the Ford Motor company and thought he had a better idea. He murdered millions in his campaign. And so it goes.

Thaksin in no way comes close to comparing with these ilk. Individuals who continue to liken him to these examples are what makes the evil in this world perpetuate. It simply has no value added content that would provide a solution to the betterment of human kind. All it does is generate wars and killings so that the sick deviate-minded people at War, Inc. can make more money. How's that fantasy for you?

It's really funny to this person how people twist things around and edit history, and censure enlightenment when the tables are turned against them and the deeds they enact. I am not glad that you are amused, and it really demonstrates a cheapened form of self-edification.

[DP25]

The idea that drug cartels were on the verge of taking over Thailand and only the brave mister Thaksin's "war" against them prevented it is one of the most ridiculous things I ever read on the entire interweb. Really takes some balls, or serious mental delusions, to come out and claim that with a straight face.

[DumFarang]

The idea that drug cartels were on the verge of taking over Thailand and only the brave mister Thaksin's "war" against them prevented it is one of the most ridiculous things I ever read on the entire interweb. Really takes some balls, or serious mental delusions, to come out and claim that with a straight face.

Agreed. There's not even a counter argument to the claim. It simply doesn't make any sense. Look at Mexico's drug war. Cartels can't get much more powerful than that and still, as bad as it is, they're not about to take over the country even when they're fighting a second rate, corrupt military and police force. Also, just as in Mexico, cartels don't try to take over countries. They try to sell lots and lots of drugs for literally tons of money. The Mexico situation is primarily between the cartels in a fight over trade routes. The military's and police role is to try and stabilize the crisis and return an acceptable amount of safety and well being to the country. I would love to see a link or something, anything, that shows Thailand's cartels were trying to take over the country and might have succeeded except for you know who.

Please.

[Colin Yai]

There seem to be some people who think enough time has passed to just forgive and forget Thaksin's past even to the point of expressing it philosophically, not likely. It would disgrace too many people, some who have lost loved ones. No amount of adequate time ever passes for that to be forgotten. It's a life mistake.

What amazes me is, in the shadow of his birthday, there's actually a debate taking place here about whether or not he's good or innocent when he was the PM who ordered a ruthless crackdown on the drug trade that resulted in over 2,000 deaths, and that's the tip of the iceberg. If someone were to walk up to anyone anywhere who doesn't know Thaksin and describe things he's done most ordinary people would say he sounds like a real piece of schidte. That's the truth.

I just wonder if those people who say enough time has elapsed, so loved ones who lost their lives in Thaksins WOD should forgive and forget , would say the same about the Simon Wiesenthal organisation, a Jewish group who were formed to hunt down Nazi's who perpetrated crimes against humanity in the death camps such as Bergen Belsen and Auschwitz?, many of of whom were brought to justice after more than 2 decades such as Adolf Eichmann.

Right, there is a very big difference between Hitler doing mass murder of five to six million Jews (and a stack of others) and Thaksin's deaths. In Hitler's case, the intention was to kill people in a particular ethnic/racial group(s). In Thaksin's case, the intention was to remove drug dealers who cause enormous problems in society.

Yes, bringing up comparisons between Hitler and Thaksin makes people look silly.

Can I just ask something ? Right, the reason why there are more anti-Thaksin people than pro-Thaksin people amongst us foreigners is, supposedly, because Thaksin was corrupt (they say he is a crook, he broke Thai law). But, I'm convinced there's something else. There's another reason why most of the people on Thai Visa don't like him. I mean, for those who don't like him because of his corrupt ways, well, there's stacks of other politicians who are corrupt. I do have vague memories of talking back in pre- 2006, of blokes drinking in bars, and having a pop at Thaksin, and it wasn't about Thaksin being a crook !!

I think there is some wires seriously crossed here ,in no way was I comparing Hitler to Thaksin , I would suggest you read my post AGAIN this time more slowly , I was merely stating I did not believe that punishment for crimes should have no time scale before the crime is somehow forgotten about and "forgiven" ,pure and simple.

[Chris Lawrence]

Oh boy, this thread's going to be fun! How the Thaksin haters will be seething!

(..and saying it will never happen, just like the election result. )

there will be at least 2500 families who were victims of this 'good guy' and his crackdown on dealers, who will not be celebrating! 1400 killed were innocent of any drug dealing.

Where do these figures come from? I see figures quoted from 2000 to 2600 just doing a quick yahoo. But these appear to be just English papers. Maybe they are trying to take over from News of the World!

[Chris Lawrence]

Kalasin-Issan ,mother and father are still trying to get answers to "Where is our son" missing in the war on drugs, He happens to be 1 of the 2.5 k international organisations do not seem to have the answers. (or are lied to) My point being the P.M. at the time ordered the war on drugs to satisfy the world outcry====what about their(victims) birthday bash???????

At the time, In any given month in there were approximately 400 murders a month, many of which were unsolved and drug related. Almost 80% of those deaths involved a forearm. Following the blow delivered to the drug cartels and their Burmese based drug suppliers, Thailand's murder rate fell dramatically. (And before any smartass wants to play with the numbers and say there was not a significant drop off, remove the murders related to the southern insurgency which spiked in 2005-2006.) Those are the facts. Why do you think the murder rate fell by almost 40%? Do you think it is possible that the drug gangs were shooting and bribing their way to control of various regions? Yes, many people that died during the fight against the drug cartels were innocent civilian casualties, but they were often murdered by the drug trafficers. The assumption that 2500 were killed in extrajudicial killings can not be proven. There is no doubt that many people died due to the gross negligence of the police and the army. The responsible parties are the police and military commanders. It is easy to point the finger. It makes all the Thaksin haters happy because it provides a neat simple solution to what was a complex problem. The Prime Minister ordered that the people of Thailand be protected against a slow moving assumption of control by drug cartels in Thailand. Rather than taking potshots at a PM that took a tough decision you should be expressing gratitude because Thailand would have been taken over by the drug cartels had Mr. Thaksin not acted with the full support of the population.

It is unfortunate an innocent person may have died. However, innocent people were being murdered by the drug dealers on any given day. Chances are that many of these people or their relatives or their friends would have been killed had the government of Thailand not intervened. Civilians always die in wars. That too is the reality.

I thought the Kid has given a very good overview of what it was like.

I moved to Chiang Rai in 2005 for 12 months. The house next door was vacant and overgrown. The occupant was apparently shot in the house and their proceeds including the house were confiscated as proceeds from crime. No one in our housing estate felt any remorse for the gentleman. Its unfortunate but the facts are that drugs are a scourge on all of society. I worked as a Drug and Alcohol counsellor for 12 years and there is much devastation done to Mum, Dad, sisters, brothers, children and extended families.

Drugs, yeah everyone has an opinion. I don't have sympathy for drug dealers. I do have empathy for people trapped in a cycle and their families. I do believe that one has to look at what has happened in a part of the world that things happen differently in Western society for what ever reason. I don't condone killing. I have also spoken with police in execution of their duty have ended the life of a criminal. They never forget this and carry this for the rest of their lives.

Any way just my 2 bobs

[Insight]

RT

One thing I know for certain.

Most of the posters on this thread would never get used to using Twitter.

[rixalex]

I thought the Kid has given a very good overview of what it was like.

I moved to Chiang Rai in 2005 for 12 months. The house next door was vacant and overgrown. The occupant was apparently shot in the house and their proceeds including the house were confiscated as proceeds from crime. No one in our housing estate felt any remorse for the gentleman. Its unfortunate but the facts are that drugs are a scourge on all of society. I worked as a Drug and Alcohol counsellor for 12 years and there is much devastation done to Mum, Dad, sisters, brothers, children and extended families.

Drugs, yeah everyone has an opinion. I don't have sympathy for drug dealers. I do have empathy for people trapped in a cycle and their families. I do believe that one has to look at what has happened in a part of the world that things happen differently in Western society for what ever reason. I don't condone killing. I have also spoken with police in execution of their duty have ended the life of a criminal. They never forget this and carry this for the rest of their lives.

Any way just my 2 bobs

Kid didn't give an overview, he gave a list of justifications for the state killing people without trial.

[cup-O-coffee]

There seem to be some people who think enough time has passed to just forgive and forget Thaksin's past even to the point of expressing it philosophically, not likely. It would disgrace too many people, some who have lost loved ones. No amount of adequate time ever passes for that to be forgotten. It's a life mistake.

What amazes me is, in the shadow of his birthday, there's actually a debate taking place here about whether or not he's good or innocent when he was the PM who ordered a ruthless crackdown on the drug trade that resulted in over 2,000 deaths, and that's the tip of the iceberg. If someone were to walk up to anyone anywhere who doesn't know Thaksin and describe things he's done most ordinary people would say he sounds like a real piece of schidte. That's the truth.

I just wonder if those people who say enough time has elapsed, so loved ones who lost their lives in Thaksins WOD should forgive and forget , would say the same about the Simon Wiesenthal organisation, a Jewish group who were formed to hunt down Nazi's who perpetrated crimes against humanity in the death camps such as Bergen Belsen and Auschwitz?, many of of whom were brought to justice after more than 2 decades such as Adolf Eichmann.

Right, there is a very big difference between Hitler doing mass murder of five to six million Jews (and a stack of others) and Thaksin's deaths. In Hitler's case, the intention was to kill people in a particular ethnic/racial group(s). In Thaksin's case, the intention was to remove drug dealers who cause enormous problems in society.

Yes, bringing up comparisons between Hitler and Thaksin makes people look silly.

Can I just ask something ? Right, the reason why there are more anti-Thaksin people than pro-Thaksin people amongst us foreigners is, supposedly, because Thaksin was corrupt (they say he is a crook, he broke Thai law). But, I'm convinced there's something else. There's another reason why most of the people on Thai Visa don't like him. I mean, for those who don't like him because of his corrupt ways, well, there's stacks of other politicians who are corrupt. I do have vague memories of talking back in pre- 2006, of blokes drinking in bars, and having a pop at Thaksin, and it wasn't about Thaksin being a crook !!

I think there is some wires seriously crossed here ,in no way was I comparing Hitler to Thaksin , I would suggest you read my post AGAIN this time more slowly , I was merely stating I did not believe that punishment for crimes should have no time scale before the crime is somehow forgotten about and "forgiven" ,pure and simple.

OK. I read it again very slowly. And even again. Your choice of illustration doesn't mesh with your rebuttal of not making a death camp, Nazi reference which subsequently brings to mind a Hitler-like inference. I believe that is an injustice to the issues that those separate events are used to seek justice in another arena, and not correct to be used here. It serves no common purpose other than to rankle people who are attempting to defend an issue of a much lesser degree and on a much smaller scale of wrong-doing.

Your point being in your latter post that "punishment for crimes should have no time scale before the crime is somehow forgotten about and 'forgiven'". This roughly translates out to no forgiveness ever; whether there is punishment or not. No time scale equals no end in sight for forgiveness or redemption. With regards to Mr. Thaksin, I believe the man has suffered more than his fair share of punishment to fit the crime. Were he even to serve any jail time, I am sure the pundits and ankle biters would go a step further and criticize him for not suffering enough in a jail cell. I see no end in sight to this Thaksin hating. It defies logic that so much history is being summarily dismissed in an effort to singularly see out the end of this man; all from people who really have no business putting their noses into these matters. Some of the comments, themselves, broach unforgiveness at how callous self-appointed judges can be.

I am convinced that the biased reaction of this particular issue is a small part of a much larger force, which could very well be the reason that this man did in fact pull a runner. Who in their right mind would step into an arena of "justice" when the cards are so obviously stacked against one's self? I do not think any of you would face the music were the tables turned and you were the ones with a bull-eye on your back. How many dead-beat dads are there who have posted against this man. And so it goes. Each person in some way at some point in their lives has decided to avoid facing the music. On any scale, this is something that these individuals will have to live with, and hope there is an end to it, or a statute of limitation or something else.

That one cannot read all these posts and imagine the same sort of justification used against them to a much lesser degree, and say, "No way! Not me", makes me wonder how genuine people really are when they pursue an individual with such ferocity and near-blind bias.

[cup-O-coffee]

I thought the Kid has given a very good overview of what it was like.

I moved to Chiang Rai in 2005 for 12 months. The house next door was vacant and overgrown. The occupant was apparently shot in the house and their proceeds including the house were confiscated as proceeds from crime. No one in our housing estate felt any remorse for the gentleman. Its unfortunate but the facts are that drugs are a scourge on all of society. I worked as a Drug and Alcohol counsellor for 12 years and there is much devastation done to Mum, Dad, sisters, brothers, children and extended families.

Drugs, yeah everyone has an opinion. I don't have sympathy for drug dealers. I do have empathy for people trapped in a cycle and their families. I do believe that one has to look at what has happened in a part of the world that things happen differently in Western society for what ever reason. I don't condone killing. I have also spoken with police in execution of their duty have ended the life of a criminal. They never forget this and carry this for the rest of their lives.

Any way just my 2 bobs

Kid didn't give an overview, he gave a list of justifications for the state killing people without trial.

Kid didn't give an overview, he gave an opinion that you seem to convolute and unfairly put words into his text, while ignoring the reason this happened. The drugs didn't magically appear in these people's systems. Ignorant people don't leave question marks; only exclamation marks. You should ask him if that is what he(?) meant, instead of speaking on his behalf without his approval.

[AleG]

So, Thaksin's surprise was what? I'm still curious.

[rixalex]

Kid didn't give an overview, he gave a list of justifications for the state killing people without trial.

Kid didn't give an overview, he gave an opinion that you seem to convolute and unfairly put words into his text, while ignoring the reason this happened. The drugs didn't magically appear in these people's systems. Ignorant people don't leave question marks; only exclamation marks. You should ask him if that is what he(?) meant, instead of speaking on his behalf without his approval.

Yes Kid gave his opinion, and my opinion of his opinion is that it is an attempt to rationalise and justify the state killing without trial, and additionally an attempt to play down Thaksin's role in it. No convoluting or putting words into anyone's mouth. That is just how his post read to me. If you read it differently, well that is your opinion, and you are welcome to it.

[ginjag]

Kalasin-Issan ,mother and father are still trying to get answers to "Where is our son" missing in the war on drugs, He happens to be 1 of the 2.5 k international organisations do not seem to have the answers. (or are lied to) My point being the P.M. at the time ordered the war on drugs to satisfy the world outcry====what about their(victims) birthday bash???????

At the time, In any given month in there were approximately 400 murders a month, many of which were unsolved and drug related. Almost 80% of those deaths involved a forearm. Following the blow delivered to the drug cartels and their Burmese based drug suppliers, Thailand's murder rate fell dramatically. (And before any smartass wants to play with the numbers and say there was not a significant drop off, remove the murders related to the southern insurgency which spiked in 2005-2006.) Those are the facts. Why do you think the murder rate fell by almost 40%? Do you think it is possible that the drug gangs were shooting and bribing their way to control of various regions? Yes, many people that died during the fight against the drug cartels were innocent civilian casualties, but they were often murdered by the drug trafficers. The assumption that 2500 were killed in extrajudicial killings can not be proven. There is no doubt that many people died due to the gross negligence of the police and the army. The responsible parties are the police and military commanders. It is easy to point the finger. It makes all the Thaksin haters happy because it provides a neat simple solution to what was a complex problem. The Prime Minister ordered that the people of Thailand be protected against a slow moving assumption of control by drug cartels in Thailand. Rather than taking potshots at a PM that took a tough decision you should be expressing gratitude because Thailand would have been taken over by the drug cartels had Mr. Thaksin not acted with the full support of the population.

It is unfortunate an innocent person may have died. However, innocent people were being murdered by the drug dealers on any given day. Chances are that many of these people or their relatives or their friends would have been killed had the government of Thailand not intervened. Civilians always die in wars. That too is the reality.

Respectfully, you did not mention the thousands of children, who are daily being done in slowly by the brain-killing effects of these drugs, Same goes for the drug-addicted pregnant moms. But no one wants to see this. There is a lot more to paint an ugly picture. At the end of the day, what is going to be done? Well. Mr. Thaksin made a move. Now he is being vilified. This sends a bad message. "Don't make a stand against the drug scum, because somebody's poor baby might get caught in the cross fire." Sorry to jump in on your post, but this steams me.

The point being that the people that were bumped off for numbers to be presented (didn't I do well/look good) but what happened to the big guys - yes the big dealers- how many of them were caught?? or bumped off, SORRY but anyone can go out and get the smokers/small time sellers, they are in most villages NOW-with the local authorities AWARE. who were the ones who were making the dosh ???? business and government bosses?? you know and I do, but you cannot bring power to order here, not often.

[rixalex]

Respectfully, you did not mention the thousands of children, who are daily being done in slowly by the brain-killing effects of these drugs, Same goes for the drug-addicted pregnant moms. But no one wants to see this. There is a lot more to paint an ugly picture. At the end of the day, what is going to be done? Well. Mr. Thaksin made a move. Now he is being vilified. This sends a bad message. "Don't make a stand against the drug scum, because somebody's poor baby might get caught in the cross fire." Sorry to jump in on your post, but this steams me.

Incidentally, this opinion of yours above attempts exactly the same rationalisation that i observe to be present in Kid's post.

[Jingthing]

Respectfully, you did not mention the thousands of children, who are daily being done in slowly by the brain-killing effects of these drugs, Same goes for the drug-addicted pregnant moms. But no one wants to see this. There is a lot more to paint an ugly picture. At the end of the day, what is going to be done? Well. Mr. Thaksin made a move. Now he is being vilified. This sends a bad message. "Don't make a stand against the drug scum, because somebody's poor baby might get caught in the cross fire." Sorry to jump in on your post, but this steams me.

Incidentally, this opinion of yours above attempts exactly the same rationalisation that i observe to be present in Kid's post.

If you are doing a brain tumor operation, it is not defensible to chop off the head.

Next ...

[cup-O-coffee]

Kid didn't give an overview, he gave a list of justifications for the state killing people without trial.

Kid didn't give an overview, he gave an opinion that you seem to convolute and unfairly put words into his text, while ignoring the reason this happened. The drugs didn't magically appear in these people's systems. Ignorant people don't leave question marks; only exclamation marks. You should ask him if that is what he(?) meant, instead of speaking on his behalf without his approval.

Yes Kid gave his opinion, and my opinion of his opinion is that it is an attempt to rationalise and justify the state killing without trial, and additionally an attempt to play down Thaksin's role in it. No convoluting or putting words into anyone's mouth. That is just how his post read to me. If you read it differently, well that is your opinion, and you are welcome to it.

"(He) didn't give..." and "he gave" seems pretty absolute to me. No conjecture there, or even a slight bit of leeway to give him an out in your response. I was referring to the missing "It sounds to me like...", or, "It is my view that you are saying...". No. I read it right. You were being absolute.Different dictionaries I guess.

Additionally, It seems to me that you are over-reaching a bit to describe the State killing without a trial. There really is not any time for a trial when there is armed resistance. I am certain the police would rather the innocents caught in the cross-fire were not collateral damage, caught in the middle of the police trying to do their job, and the suspects instead giving the police cause to defend themselves with extreme prejudice. Generally speaking, the Thai police do not fire until they are fired upon, or they are informed they are going into a situation where the suspects are heavily armed and dangerous. Do you have the reports to explain this away?

Even the re-telling of a shootout for a police report can be confusing; with one perp, let alone numerous perps. The adrenaline is rushing to extremes and the natural reactions and/or training kicks in and all hell breaks loose. Any soldiers out there who can confirm this?

A bullet, once fired, will eventually lodge somewhere. Enough of them let loose will eventually find a human body. No one that I know of would like to be the recipient of that bullet. I can imagine any police officer, mostly untrained, and having never been in a shootout, going up against desperados, who are trained, have the experience, the weaponry, the backing, and are in the business of killing; and the young, untrained officer is pissing his pants when the bullets begin to fly.

At a grass roots level, I think you are missing the point. Those boys in brown that you are calling murderers are also the sons of mothers and fathers who are proud of their service to uphold the laws that you quip.

What it seems that you are really saying is that that one police officer (the State), in a shootout, under the circumstances I laid out, is doing his job with the intent to kill an innocent person? Is that right? If the suspects are innocent, there would be no bullets flying. If the civilians with the guns do not have permits to carry, and they are firing at police officers who wish to question them or arrest them, then they are guilty by that act alone. Do the forensics say that the bullets pulled from the victims matched the guns that the police were using? Do you have the forensic reports?

I think you sound like an idealist, who enjoys the freedom to bludgeon the very thing that protects you at night. Give these officers a break. They went where you (possibly) and I would not go, and would certainly piss our pants were we to get caught up in a shootout; a shootout with scum who want to poison your children and your neighbor's children, and they have no respect for human life. Collateral damage? Yeah! I guess I will accept that, if that is the kind of shield these real terrorists are going to hide behind. I would even go so far as to warn the Thai people that if they are aware that they are surrounded by drug scum, to remove them, or move out of the neighborhood, because the police have the legal right to enforce the law and to keep drugs off the streets.

What part of "war" in the statement War on Drugs" do you not understand. Thaksin said it was going to be a war. So Bush and Obama can declare a war on terrorism and it's OK? To attack other countries over a mandate that clears the table for invading countries over imagined threats? What is not fair about declaring a war on drugs, and carrying out that declaration, and not expecting any resistance and collateral damage? Can you describe a war that is fair when the heavily armed suspects do not play fair, and hide behind innocent victims?

Why don't you write a letter to your county's leaders and dam_n them for killing innocent people in the wars that they were involved in. Thaksin did not declare a game of paddy fingers on drugs. War is hell and innocent people get caught in the crossfire. That is one definition of war. Most people understand that, but you are the exception.

My opinion.

Edited July 27, 2011 by cup-O-coffee

[rixalex]

Additionally, It seems to me that you are over-reaching a bit to describe the State killing without a trial. There really is not any time for a trial when there is armed resistance. I am certain the police would rather the innocents caught in the cross-fire were not collateral damage, caught in the middle of the police trying to do their job, and the suspects instead giving the police cause to defend themselves with extreme prejudice. Generally speaking, the Thai police do not fire until they are fired upon, or they are informed they are going into a situation where the suspects are heavily armed and dangerous. Do you have the reports to explain this away?

Not an over-reach at all. The police already had the power to defend themselves in case of being fired upon or facing armed resistance. If all the war on drugs was about, was police firing back when fired upon, it would not have been new or controversial.

I really do think that you demonstrate by your comments your total lack of understanding of what actually went on. Just my opinion. Anyway, the topic of this thread is Thaksin's birthday. If you wish to discuss the war on drugs further, i suggest resurrecting one of the many threads that exist here on that very topic. Or start your own. You might want to think about doing some deeper research first though. Again, just my opinion...

[cup-O-coffee]

Additionally, It seems to me that you are over-reaching a bit to describe the State killing without a trial. There really is not any time for a trial when there is armed resistance. I am certain the police would rather the innocents caught in the cross-fire were not collateral damage, caught in the middle of the police trying to do their job, and the suspects instead giving the police cause to defend themselves with extreme prejudice. Generally speaking, the Thai police do not fire until they are fired upon, or they are informed they are going into a situation where the suspects are heavily armed and dangerous. Do you have the reports to explain this away?

Not an over-reach at all. The police already had the power to defend themselves in case of being fired upon or facing armed resistance. If all the war on drugs was about, was police firing back when fired upon, it would not have been new or controversial.

I really do think that you demonstrate by your comments your total lack of understanding of what actually went on. Just my opinion. Anyway, the topic of this thread is Thaksin's birthday. If you wish to discuss the war on drugs further, i suggest resurrecting one of the many threads that exist here on that very topic. Or start your own. You might want to think about doing some deeper research first though. Again, just my opinion...

Yeah, right! Thanks for the suggestions. Show me one thread on Thaksin where the OP remains the issue of each post. Not possible. I wished him happy birthday, and a few other things, and that comment was like the starting gun at the races. Did you wish him happy birthday? No! AT least I was on topic. You never were.

War is war. You don't make the rules, and neither do I. The rules are; there are no rules for the scum. For the police it's different. The police have to sort the fly shit from the pepper and dance around idiotic idealists when they are taking the fire from the enemy. Even if the police literally killed 2,500 people, I would never hear such a cry of outrage for the exponentially larger amount of victims who die over drug related deaths annually, and the innocents as related collateral damage who fall into the path of those deaths. Idealists make me want to vomit. They should be the first ones put on the front line. They should be the ones who are rounded up and re-located to the dingiest neighborhoods, where the drug scum live. Idealists! Pah! This issue will more than likely be resurrected and continue at the next mention of the man's name, or some Thaksin hater will jump the gun and insert an innuendo about him over some other non-Thaksin related OP. Happens all the time here. Regards.

[rixalex]

Yeah, right! Thanks for the suggestions. Show me one thread on Thaksin where the OP remains the issue of each post. Not possible. I wished him happy birthday, and a few other things, and that comment was like the starting gun at the races. Did you wish him happy birthday? No! AT least I was on topic. You never were.

Personally i'm not in the habit of wasting breath wishing dirty corrupt selfish politicians a happy birthday, be they Thaksin or anyone else, and i have no plan to start now. So, with that being said, i shall leave this thread forthwith as i have nothing germane to contribute. Enjoy your celebrations.

[JetsetBkk]

Kalasin-Issan ,mother and father are still trying to get answers to "Where is our son" missing in the war on drugs, He happens to be 1 of the 2.5 k international organisations do not seem to have the answers. (or are lied to) My point being the P.M. at the time ordered the war on drugs to satisfy the world outcry====what about their(victims) birthday bash???????

At the time, In any given month in there were approximately 400 murders a month, many of which were unsolved and drug related.

<snip>

innocent people were being murdered by the drug dealers on any given day. Chances are that many of these people or their relatives or their friends would have been killed had the government of Thailand not intervened. Civilians always die in wars. That too is the reality.

As I recall, and many of the new posters here may not know this, but at the time the "War on drugs" was started, the consensus was that it was a good idea. It was a great shame that people innocent of the drugs trade were also killed either accidentally or deliberately.

[hammered]

It always amazes me that so many people on here so happily accept the removal of basic democratic rights such as the right to trial for those labelled as something a society finds unacceptable. I wonder how many of these people would accept the killing of their sons or daughters or brothers and sisters without trial. However, I guess if they are first labelled a drug dealer that would be OK. Democracy is a hard thing but you either believe in it and all that comes with it including innocence until proven guilty or you accept non-democratic governance. There is no middle path.

[Credo]

I am in agreement with hammered. For those of us who have supported the PT party and the cause (but not necessarily the behavior) of the Red Shirts, how Thaksin's war on drugs was conducted was wrong. Even if you like him, that chapter of his political life was a dark one.

The behavior of all involved in the War on Drugs should be investigated to find out who gave what orders and who acted independently.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Scott
spelling

[Chris Lawrence]

Its like most things that get posted here. Taken out of context or made up scenarios with figures that have no bearing on actual fact. 2,500 -2,600 dead with the war on drugs? I remember reading about 2005 it was more like 950, with 50 shot in shoot outs and about 800-900 shot with police issued bullets. Now, you also need to go back and look at crime and death rates prior to the start of this crackdown. Need to look at the effects it had on the black market economy, as with drugs comes prostitution and in this area of the world trafficking in people. There are turf wars and buffer zones that become unsafe for many people to enter and live. I can sincerely say together with my experience people involved in the trafficking and use of drugs are some people that you wouldn't take home to meet mum.

But what were the actual numbers killed during this period and what is your source? Its great to deliver an electrifying and elegant post that basically points out your own opinion, but were you there and did you do some of the follow up work in an area that not many will take on. It is also an area of work that supplies a great deal of corruption.

I don't condone killing and I do believe it is sad when a life is lost, but there have been some people I have meet, that if their life ended I would see the benefit the community would receive.

I don't know why so many were killed, but then again go and talk to some of the police that were involved in this action. I can only assume that the action was very dangerous, particularly when one is to confront some one who enjoyed one time protection from the people that 'may' have offered them protection. May is subjective as I am assuming this.

Its like saying Thaksin. As soon as one has a differing opinion on what he did or what should happen now, the man is and poster can be torn to pieces. But what were the 4 charges he ended up with; and how is this seen in the western world?

[Siripon]

Its like most things that get posted here. Taken out of context or made up scenarios with figures that have no bearing on actual fact. 2,500 -2,600 dead with the war on drugs? I remember reading about 2005 it was more like 950, with 50 shot in shoot outs and about 800-900 shot with police issued bullets. Now, you also need to go back and look at crime and death rates prior to the start of this crackdown. Need to look at the effects it had on the black market economy, as with drugs comes prostitution and in this area of the world trafficking in people. There are turf wars and buffer zones that become unsafe for many people to enter and live. I can sincerely say together with my experience people involved in the trafficking and use of drugs are some people that you wouldn't take home to meet mum.

But what were the actual numbers killed during this period and what is your source? Its great to deliver an electrifying and elegant post that basically points out your own opinion, but were you there and did you do some of the follow up work in an area that not many will take on. It is also an area of work that supplies a great deal of corruption.

I don't condone killing and I do believe it is sad when a life is lost, but there have been some people I have meet, that if their life ended I would see the benefit the community would receive.

I don't know why so many were killed, but then again go and talk to some of the police that were involved in this action. I can only assume that the action was very dangerous, particularly when one is to confront some one who enjoyed one time protection from the people that 'may' have offered them protection. May is subjective as I am assuming this.

Its like saying Thaksin. As soon as one has a differing opinion on what he did or what should happen now, the man is and poster can be torn to pieces. But what were the 4 charges he ended up with; and how is this seen in the western world?

Under Thai law the defendant has to be present for the criminal proceedings to proceed, and Thaksin fled the country.

[JetsetBkk]

It always amazes me that so many people on here so happily accept the removal of basic democratic rights such as the right to trial for those labelled as something a society finds unacceptable. I wonder how many of these people would accept the killing of their sons or daughters or brothers and sisters without trial. However, I guess if they are first labelled a drug dealer that would be OK. Democracy is a hard thing but you either believe in it and all that comes with it including innocence until proven guilty or you accept non-democratic governance. There is no middle path.

Of course there is, it's what we have in Thailand. You'll never understand this place until you stop thinking with a Western brain.

"Right to trial"? Why do you think it was called a "War on drugs"?

[rixalex]

"Right to trial"? Why do you think it was called a "War on drugs"?

Catchy perhaps? Sounds good?