Sonic Rebuild

[nellyp]

I have a supersonic that is old and has no power anymore (the wife's family had it on the farm for 6 years)I have decided to get the engine stripped and rings etc done.The guy in the garage says it will cost 3,000. If that is true i may put a bit more into it to give it a bit more ooomph. Any suggestions about what to ask for?

Like I said I do not want to spend a load of money, and do not want it to have boy racer performance. Just a little bit extra would be nice.

Cheers in advance

[VocalNeal]

I have only done a Wave. If money is a concern don't do anything. If you need a hobby then it is different. If there are some accessory shops where you live go and have a poke around.

If it has to be bored you can get larger pistons and liner to get 150 or 160cc. If it doesn't need to be bored you can get performance camshafts from say 1000 for a reground one to 1500 fro a new billet one.

Loud after market exhaust about 1500

Then it turns into a Pandora's box. Larger valves , head porting, larger carburettor and manifold. None of it really expensive but very easy to spend 10,000+ on parts.

[Garry]

If it just requires a freshen up:

valve & valve seat / lap & regrind

valve adjustment

clean up on the inlet & exhaust ports (not a flow type clean up),

new air filter

fuel filter (if they have one, maybe a screen type)

clean & rebuild the carburettor

new spark plug (get an Iridium plug if you can, as they are reliable and long lasting)

get a decent exhaust

Edited July 26, 2011 by Garry

[SumetCycle]

Also, they are still quite popular on the secondhand market. If you fix it up and decide to sell, you should get some of your investment back. Best of luck.

Brian

[dave_boo]

What seems decently popular is to get a CBR 150 top end and stick it on there...got a mate down the street from where I live and he did that (apparently it's something they do in areas where the CBR 125--which to my understanding is the same motor--do). Has essentially the same power as the CBR (something like 5 or more HP over stock) in the little pocket sized bike. Done right it should last forever as the I have yet to see a report of the old gen CBR's having problems.

[nellyp]

I have only done a Wave. If money is a concern don't do anything. If you need a hobby then it is different. If there are some accessory shops where you live go and have a poke around.

If it has to be bored you can get larger pistons and liner to get 150 or 160cc. If it doesn't need to be bored you can get performance camshafts from say 1000 for a reground one to 1500 fro a new billet one.

Loud after market exhaust about 1500

Then it turns into a Pandora's box. Larger valves , head porting, larger carburettor and manifold. None of it really expensive but very easy to spend 10,000+ on parts.

Do you have any idea how much it would cost to have the larger piston fitted? Just a rough idea would be fine.

[nellyp]

What seems decently popular is to get a CBR 150 top end and stick it on there...got a mate down the street from where I live and he did that (apparently it's something they do in areas where the CBR 125--which to my understanding is the same motor--do). Has essentially the same power as the CBR (something like 5 or more HP over stock) in the little pocket sized bike. Done right it should last forever as the I have yet to see a report of the old gen CBR's having problems.

This sounds like a great idea, I think it may cost more than I want to spent though.

Cheers anyway

[VocalNeal]

I have only done a Wave. If money is a concern don't do anything. If you need a hobby then it is different. If there are some accessory shops where you live go and have a poke around.

If it has to be bored you can get larger pistons and liner to get 150 or 160cc. If it doesn't need to be bored you can get performance camshafts from say 1000 for a reground one to 1500 fro a new billet one.

Loud after market exhaust about 1500

Then it turns into a Pandora's box. Larger valves , head porting, larger carburettor and manifold. None of it really expensive but very easy to spend 10,000+ on parts.

Do you have any idea how much it would cost to have the larger piston fitted? Just a rough idea would be fine.

No sorry.

I bought my parts in Thailand and took them to Indonesia and built the bike there.

[nellyp]

I have only done a Wave. If money is a concern don't do anything. If you need a hobby then it is different. If there are some accessory shops where you live go and have a poke around.

If it has to be bored you can get larger pistons and liner to get 150 or 160cc. If it doesn't need to be bored you can get performance camshafts from say 1000 for a reground one to 1500 fro a new billet one.

Loud after market exhaust about 1500

Then it turns into a Pandora's box. Larger valves , head porting, larger carburettor and manifold. None of it really expensive but very easy to spend 10,000+ on parts.

How much of this do you think will be done for my 3,000

Cheers

[thaicbr]

Mate for 3,000b just rebuild the bike back to standard. New piston / rebore.clean the carb. check the valves. change the chain and sprockets and you will be surprised at the difference as long as it's done properly)

[KRS1]

For a bit more oomph, get a 28mm Keihin PE 28 carb 1800 baht (OEM), or a cdi for around 1500 baht.

or just go cheap and go down 1 tooth on front or go up two teeth on the back sprocket, this will give you stronger low-mid end, at a loss of high end. Don't know what your current sprocket ratio is, but it may just be over geared.

I'd do the sprockets first since they're cheap, then go from there if you need faster top speed, which on the Sonic is a dangerous proposition.

[nellyp]

I am having the piston replaced (if necessary) with a cylinder clean out, valves ground reset etc, carb cleaned and set, new fork seals, new gaskets. this would cost me 2,000 with new piston etc. Any ideas how much it would be to have it bored out to a 150?

[nellyp]

I am having the piston replaced (if necessary) with a cylinder clean out, valves ground reset etc, carb cleaned and set, new fork seals, new gaskets. this would cost me 2,000 with new piston etc. Any ideas how much it would be to have it bored out to a 150?

[KRS1]

Just add another 1000 baht for boring, custom made gaskets and bigger carb jets.

[thaicbr]

Just add another 1000 baht for boring, custom made gaskets and bigger carb jets.

and then wait for the problems. you seem to be on a budget and want a reliable bike. unless the Mechanic knows EXACTLY what he's doing it's gonna end in tears. how exactly do you make a 'custom made head gasket '. what oversized piston is he going to use? just a few questions you have to ask yourself.

[KRS1]

The cylinder gasket can be cut, but the head gasket is usually made of aluminum and will be harder to cut. Aftermarket gaskets in popular bigger bore sizes are available in copper,but the mechanic has to know where to look. In this case its really going to depend on where Nellyp lives.

If the mechanic is good he can also increase the compression ratio by using a piston with a higher deck height and give similar results as increasing displacement by about 15-20cc's, but he really has to be competent to get it right, and I wouldn't even attempt to explain this to Somchai.

Edited July 28, 2011 by KRS1

[thaicbr]

The cylinder gasket can be cut, but the head gasket is usually made of aluminum and will be harder to cut. Aftermarket gaskets in popular bigger bore sizes are available in copper,but the mechanic has to know where to look. In this case its really going to depend on where Nellyp lives.

If the mechanic is good he can also increase the compression ratio by using a piston with a higher deck height and give similar results as increasing displacement by about 15-20cc's, but he really has to be competent to get it right, and I wouldn't even attempt to explain this to Somchai.

KRS1. This is what i was getting at.. IF his mechanic is in the know then great BUT from BITTER experience if you use non original parts it can go SOOO bad very quickly.

[KRS1]

Oh yeah, Somchai can be baffling, just yesterday i took my bike in to check that the stator was tight.

I have never seen anyone make sure a bolt was tight by turning in the 'loosen' direction until yesterday.

Edited July 28, 2011 by KRS1

[nellyp]

The bike went in this morning for the work . He is going to rebore it to 150 as he said it will be no problem . This garage does a lot of work on sonics in the area and I was looking at one he had done that was like shit off a shovel. It cost 16,000 for the mods on that bike though . I told him to replace all the gaskets and he said that he did that on all the work he does like this. I can only hope that he has the gaskets ready. He showed me the piston as he carries them in stock so maybe he has the gasket as well. I will just need to ask him when I go back as I am in work now. My worry is that, though we talked about cleaning and re-setting the carb, there was no talk of increasing the carb jets . Does this have to be done? and will it be detrimental to the engine until I can get it sorted?.

I'm also having new fork seals new kick start, valves ground and re-seated. What with my new Bob Marley seat and bright yellow panels I'm a bit excited ....even though my mate has just bought a brand new CBR250 to play with By the way I have just discovered emoticons

Edited July 29, 2011 by nellyp

[thaicbr]

YES. we noticed your emoticon fetish

[Garry]

YES. we noticed your emoticon fetish

and yours

[KRS1]

Im sure the mechanic knows to change the jets. Worse case scenario is the bike runs lean and a bit hot if you don't go long distances everyday.

But looking through some shop manuals, it appears the sonic and cbr 150 use the same size jets 118/35 (or 38 depending on model year) even though its a 125cc bike. I wouldn't go over these sizes, the bike will bog out.

[nellyp]

Im sure the mechanic knows to change the jets. Worse case scenario is the bike runs lean and a bit hot if you don't go long distances everyday.

But looking through some shop manuals, it appears the sonic and cbr 150 use the same size jets 118/35 (or 38 depending on model year) even though its a 125cc bike. I wouldn't go over these sizes, the bike will bog out.

Thanks for this. The mechanic just told my missus that he will try the bike first and if he thinks it's necessary he will replace them. This surprised me as I thought he would have jumped at the chance to earn the extra cash. If the engine is running lean (as I understand the term....too much air) what damage could I do my rebuilt engine. How will I tell if I am running lean apart from the heat as the sonic runs hot anyway most of the time. I will not be doing long distances maybe 20kms at the most, I only really use the bike to trip around town and area

[Garry]

Im sure the mechanic knows to change the jets. Worse case scenario is the bike runs lean and a bit hot if you don't go long distances everyday.

But looking through some shop manuals, it appears the sonic and cbr 150 use the same size jets 118/35 (or 38 depending on model year) even though its a 125cc bike. I wouldn't go over these sizes, the bike will bog out.

Thanks for this. The mechanic just told my missus that he will try the bike first and if he thinks it's necessary he will replace them. This surprised me as I thought he would have jumped at the chance to earn the extra cash. If the engine is running lean (as I understand the term....too much air) what damage could I do my rebuilt engine. How will I tell if I am running lean apart from the heat as the sonic runs hot anyway most of the time. I will not be doing long distances maybe 20kms at the most, I only really use the bike to trip around town and area

nellyp, better to be rich than lean.

It's a lot easy to work down from a rich condition and tune safely, then have a lean condition and working up wards from that condition and still be lean. Riding a lean tuned engine (this also depends on how lean) on the road will start overheating the entire combustion chamber: spark plug, valves & valve seats, overheating the piston dome and burning off the lubricant oil from the cylinder wall, which your piston slips through & piston rings use to seal against for compression. On the same note, a rich engine though will wash away the lubricant oil, but no where near as severe as a lean engine will.

Unless it is a race engine, where plugs readings (visual) can be easily carried and give a reasonable idea of combustion conditions. On the street, you would have to ride at a reasonable speed, consistent throttle position for 5-10 kilometers, then come to a complete stop, stop the engine and remove the spark plug to see the combustion color condition.

Running the engine at the shop with different throttle positions, will mainly give an idea what the idle circuit is doing and a very rough idea of the main jet (size) & balance (needle height).

There are other technical issues but I'm sure this is enough for you to understand the process.

Cheers,

Garry

[KRS1]

Im sure the mechanic knows to change the jets. Worse case scenario is the bike runs lean and a bit hot if you don't go long distances everyday.

But looking through some shop manuals, it appears the sonic and cbr 150 use the same size jets 118/35 (or 38 depending on model year) even though its a 125cc bike. I wouldn't go over these sizes, the bike will bog out.

Thanks for this. The mechanic just told my missus that he will try the bike first and if he thinks it's necessary he will replace them. This surprised me as I thought he would have jumped at the chance to earn the extra cash. If the engine is running lean (as I understand the term....too much air) what damage could I do my rebuilt engine. How will I tell if I am running lean apart from the heat as the sonic runs hot anyway most of the time. I will not be doing long distances maybe 20kms at the most, I only really use the bike to trip around town and area

As Garry mentioned you can look at your plug to determine the combustion temperature, you'd look for a nice dark brown color on the ceramic part right beneath the electrode. Black and oily too rich, whitish light brown ashy to lean.

You can also listen to it, but it takes experience to know what to look for. If the rpm's drop down too quickly and sounds boggy from a high rev back to idle its rich, if it kinda lingers before going back down to idle its lean.

It should have a nice snap in throttle response.

[Garry]

Spark plug reading info:

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/maintenance/sparkplugs.htm

[eljeque]

For a bit more oomph, get a 28mm Keihin PE 28 carb 1800 baht (OEM), or a cdi for around 1500 baht.

KSR1..

Where can I get a higher output CDI for my Wave125, now a 150, with a better cam, larger carb and better exhaust? Or, just ask any shop for the CBR150 CDI or something similar.

Thanks

[thaicbr]

lek cdi

[KRS1]

For a bit more oomph, get a 28mm Keihin PE 28 carb 1800 baht (OEM), or a cdi for around 1500 baht.

KSR1..

Where can I get a higher output CDI for my Wave125, now a 150, with a better cam, larger carb and better exhaust? Or, just ask any shop for the CBR150 CDI or something similar.

Thanks

Is your wave carb or FI?

You can get the carb at any Honda Dealer (say: carboo N-Pro), but it will come with NSR jetting, so you'll have to get the proper jets also start at 118/35(38), You will aslo need an NSR throttle, but if the shop is good they will know how to adapt the Wave throttle to work....API also has cams, but they mark the prices up...they dont make them themselves. The cam factory is down in the south. Any mocyc performance shop will know where to get an exhaust and cam...get a stage 1 cam (say: bua neung) stage 2 & 3 are for stroked, ported and bigger valve engines. Stage 2-3 concentrate more on higher revs and you'll lose streetability.

i'd really stick with the original exhaust first and do the exhaust later so you can see the gains.

Edited July 30, 2011 by KRS1

[nellyp]

I have had my bike back for a few days now and it has more pull than before, but they seem to have set the idle too high and I can still hear a ticking from the engine that I thought was the valves. Where would you hear the noise of valves on the sonic engine? and will me altering the idle alter the fuel mixture. I am still worried about the lean running situation. I have not had a look at the plug yet as i have no spanner. Something that I find a little strange is that if I try to start from cold and use the choke it will not start at all, but if the engine warms up a little and I put the choke on it will run. Is this bad?